How Many Resident Expats In This Burg? (Greater Pattaya Metropolis)

[chiang mai]

If the numbers shown in post 17 are even remotely close to being accurate that suggests there is around 600k ex-pats in Thailand in total, all nationalities included, suggesting that Pattaya has only 7,500 or 10,000 leaves a really large number living elsewhere, so where do they live. In terms of ex-pat population density, I would have thought it's something like Bangkok number one, Issan number two, Chiang Mai province number three, Pattaya number four and the islands number five? BTW, I've heard the number of 22,000 expats in CM province several times which suggests that Pattaya should be higher than guessed earlier - I'm going to plump for somewhere around 15,000, guesswork of course.

[RabC]

Resident expats have to do 90 day reporting so the number should be well known. Maybe a Howard Miller or Barry Kenyon could answer this.

Complete rubbish, loads of expats don't utilise visas that require 90 day reporting.

The topic is "resident" expats not tourists. Tourists are reported by their hotel, etc. Expats with retirement visas, work permits, etc. must do 90 reporting. So not complete rubbish for those that can read.

I see ignorance is bliss, I have lived here 12 years and not once made a 90 day report to immigration. I work offshore in oil/gas so spend less than 90 days here at any one time but close to 7 months a year living here, so class myself as a resident and not a tourist.

[Pattaya46]

Hi. A few figures from French Embassy if it can help:

- people officialy registered as "living in Thailand" end of 2011: 9,762

- - Bangkok : 52% (5076)

- - Pattaya : 11% (1074)

- - Phuket : 9% (878)

- - Changmai : 8 % (781)

19% of them or above 60 years old

From consular work made in Bangkok (passports, attestations,...) the French Embassy estimate that the real number of French people living in Thailand is a little more than twice the figures above: About 20,000 French living in Thailand. About 2,200 in Pattaya.

(Many French people do not register at the Embassy to keep Social Security and other Health advantages in France...)

French community is small in Thailand, but maybe it can help you by comparison with other countries.

[Mobi]

The British ambassador stated last year that there are 51,000 Brits who are resident in Thailand and also 850,000 Brits who visit Thailand every year.

I have no idea how he came up with the figure of 51,000 but if that is the number who have registered their details with the embassy, then one must assume that the actual figure is much higher, as a great number would never bother to register, especially given the low regard in which many hold their embassy.

And also, I wonder how many of the 850,000 visitors could also be classed as residents.

This whole subject is a moveable feast and who knows what the numbers really are?

Nobody, I suspect.

[Barack]

Resident expats have to do 90 day reporting so the number should be well known. Maybe a Howard Miller or Barry Kenyon could answer this.

Complete rubbish, loads of expats don't utilise visas that require 90 day reporting.

The topic is "resident" expats not tourists. Tourists are reported by their hotel, etc. Expats with retirement visas, work permits, etc. must do 90 reporting. So not complete rubbish for those that can read.

I see ignorance is bliss, I have lived here 12 years and not once made a 90 day report to immigration. I work offshore in oil/gas so spend less than 90 days here at any one time but close to 7 months a year living here, so class myself as a resident and not a tourist.

You may class yourself as a resident but not the government or for purposes of this discussion. If you are residing in Thailand for more than 90 days, you are required to report

your address to Immigration and again for each succeeding 90 day period that you remain in Thailand. Also, if you change your address, you are supposed to report it to Immigration within 24

hours.

Residency reporting requirements are on the government website here:

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=90days

Some posters have made good suggestions on estimating the number of foreign residents. I think using the 90 day average for address reporting would get us pretty close.

[RabC]

You may class yourself as a resident but not the government or for purposes of this discussion. If you are residing in Thailand for more than 90 days, you are required to report

your address to Immigration and again for each succeeding 90 day period that you remain in Thailand. Also, if you change your address, you are supposed to report it to Immigration within 24

hours.

Residency reporting requirements are on the government website here:

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/base.php?page=90days

Some posters have made good suggestions on estimating the number of foreign residents. I think using the 90 day average for address reporting would get us pretty close.

And I believe that there are an awful lot of foreigners residing here who have NO need to report every 90 days. 90 day reporting does not a resident make. I have a bank account, a full 5 year ldriving license, a car on hire purchase, my name is on the title deeds for the house I share with my partner (chanoot, sp), so please do not try and tell me I do not reside here.

To take the Official Government Line I do believe apart from those few granted PR the rest of us are on some form of "Non Residence" visa be it O or B or Ed, so that puts YOU in exactly the same boat as me.

Edited August 26, 2012 by RabC

[Barack]

You may class yourself as a resident but not the government or for purposes of this discussion. If you are residing in Thailand for more than 90 days, you are required to report

your address to Immigration and again for each succeeding 90 day period that you remain in Thailand. Also, if you change your address, you are supposed to report it to Immigration within 24

hours.

Residency reporting requirements are on the government website here:

http://www.immigrati...php?page=90days

Some posters have made good suggestions on estimating the number of foreign residents. I think using the 90 day average for address reporting would get us pretty close.

And I believe that there are an awful lot of foreigners residing here who have NO need to report every 90 days. 90 day reporting does not a resident make. I have a bank account, a full 5 year ldriving license, a car on hire purchase, my name is on the title deeds for the house I share with my partner (chanoot, sp), so please do not try and tell me I do not reside here.

To take the Official Government Line I do believe apart from those few granted PR the rest of us are on some form of "Non Residence" visa be it O or B or Ed, so that puts YOU in exactly the same boat as me.

It's a "Non Immigrant" , not a "Non Residence" visa(s). Your situation is unique and not representative of foreign residents. Not sure what kind of Visa you have; Visa Exempt, Visa on Arrival, Tourist Visa, Non Immigrant but there is no exception for the 90 day reporting requirement. I had a Thai bank account, owned condos, owned cars too.....and I wasn't even living (whoops I meant residing) in Thailand. I suggest you re-read the government website and maybe you will have a better understanding. Cheers!

[LeCharivari]

I have a bank account, a full 5 year ldriving license, a car on hire purchase, my name is on the title deeds for the house I share with my partner (chanoot, sp), so please do not try and tell me I do not reside here

I still have a UK bank account, a UK driving licence valid for another 15 years, and owned a house there for over 25 years, for the last 10 of which I was "non-resident" in the UK (the tax-man's arbitrary choice - I never applied) as I was living here. That didn't make me resident in the UK.

[JanKlaasen]

You may class yourself as a resident but not the government or for purposes of this discussion. If you are residing in Thailand for more than 90 days, you are required to report

your address to Immigration and again for each succeeding 90 day period that you remain in Thailand. Also, if you change your address, you are supposed to report it to Immigration within 24

hours.

Residency reporting requirements are on the government website here:

http://www.immigrati...php?page=90days

Some posters have made good suggestions on estimating the number of foreign residents. I think using the 90 day average for address reporting would get us pretty close.

And I believe that there are an awful lot of foreigners residing here who have NO need to report every 90 days. 90 day reporting does not a resident make. I have a bank account, a full 5 year ldriving license, a car on hire purchase, my name is on the title deeds for the house I share with my partner (chanoot, sp), so please do not try and tell me I do not reside here.

To take the Official Government Line I do believe apart from those few granted PR the rest of us are on some form of "Non Residence" visa be it O or B or Ed, so that puts YOU in exactly the same boat as me.

It's a "Non Immigrant" , not a "Non Residence" visa(s). Your situation is unique and not representative of foreign residents. Not sure what kind of Visa you have; Visa Exempt, Visa on Arrival, Tourist Visa, Non Immigrant but there is no exception for the 90 day reporting requirement. I had a Thai bank account, owned condos, owned cars too.....and I wasn't even living (whoops I meant residing) in Thailand. I suggest you re-read the government website and maybe you will have a better understanding. Cheers!

There are umpteen foreigners staying on a multiple entry non-immigrant visa which allows to stay 90 days after which they have to do a borderrun ( no 90 day reporting ).

I did so for 14 years untill I was old enough to get a retirement visa.

[LeCharivari]

The British ambassador stated last year that there are 51,000 Brits who are resident in Thailand and also 850,000 Brits who visit Thailand every year.

I have no idea how he came up with the figure of 51,000 but if that is the number who have registered their details with the embassy, then one must assume that the actual figure is much higher, as a great number would never bother to register, especially given the low regard in which many hold their embassy.

And also, I wonder how many of the 850,000 visitors could also be classed as residents.

This whole subject is a moveable feast and who knows what the numbers really are?

Nobody, I suspect.

The figure is based, as you correctly assume, on the number of people registered with the Embassy - which also in part justifies Embassy manning levels on the number of residents and visitors. Many, as you also assume correctly, do not register with the Embassy and some visitors register as a matter of routine. Far more significantly, virtually no residents or tourists bother to de-register with their Embassy on leaving so unless they die in Thailand their name stays on the register indefinitely - making your assumption that the number is much higher invalid, as the register is meaningless as far as actual numbers of residents is concerned (as are the figure from other Embassies for the same reasons).

The figure of 850,000 British tourists is the figure given by the Tourist Authority of Thailand who produce statistics on visitors by nationality every year (all are available on the net); Britain has dropped from fourth to ninth in the last ten years. Even this figure is inflated as anyone visiting the country is registered each time they visit, whether they are a visitor from Malaysia coming here for a weekend or RabC coming to "reside" here every other month (and being counted six times).

Edited August 26, 2012 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

There are umpteen foreigners staying on a multiple entry non-immigrant visa which allows to stay 90 days after which they have to do a borderrun ( no 90 day reporting ).

I did so for 14 years untill I was old enough to get a retirement visa.

As I mentioned, I did also. In all those 14 years I only know three Brits this applied to and in some 40 visa runs I only ever met one person in a similar situation.

Edited August 26, 2012 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

If the numbers shown in post 17 are even remotely close to being accurate that suggests there is around 600k ex-pats in Thailand in total, all nationalities included, suggesting that Pattaya has only 7,500 or 10,000 leaves a really large number living elsewhere, so where do they live. In terms of ex-pat population density, I would have thought it's something like Bangkok number one, Issan number two, Chiang Mai province number three, Pattaya number four and the islands number five? BTW, I've heard the number of 22,000 expats in CM province several times which suggests that Pattaya should be higher than guessed earlier - I'm going to plump for somewhere around 15,000, guesswork of course.

As you correctly say, "guesswork".

I can never understand why some people prefer what they would have thought, what they've heard or what they've guessed over figures given by Thai Immigration, who are the only ones in any sort of position to know.

[JanKlaasen]

There are umpteen foreigners staying on a multiple entry non-immigrant visa which allows to stay 90 days after which they have to do a borderrun ( no 90 day reporting ).

I did so for 14 years untill I was old enough to get a retirement visa.

As I mentioned I did. In all those 14 years I only know three Brits this applied to and in some 40 visa runs I only ever met one person in a similar situation.

That is strange as even today I know many who go this way as they are not in a position yet to get a yearly visa.I'm sure many of them don't use the visa services but do it by own transport.

[chiang mai]

If the numbers shown in post 17 are even remotely close to being accurate that suggests there is around 600k ex-pats in Thailand in total, all nationalities included, suggesting that Pattaya has only 7,500 or 10,000 leaves a really large number living elsewhere, so where do they live. In terms of ex-pat population density, I would have thought it's something like Bangkok number one, Issan number two, Chiang Mai province number three, Pattaya number four and the islands number five? BTW, I've heard the number of 22,000 expats in CM province several times which suggests that Pattaya should be higher than guessed earlier - I'm going to plump for somewhere around 15,000, guesswork of course.

As you correctly say, "guesswork".

I can never understand why some people prefer what they would have thought, what they've heard or what they've guessed over figures given by Thai Immigration, who are the only ones in any sort of position to know.

It's quite simple really, I don't think your numbers are accurate hence some more work is needed to arrive at the correct answer, regardless of who told you what and where! Simply, 10,000 is a far too convenient number to be true or accurate and frankly, if you've asked someone at Soi 7 Immigration "how many expats", they will give you a number for face savings reasons becuase the culture here doesn't permit such folks to say, "I don't know".

Turning now to your earlier math's: your calculations assume only a single officer manages 90 day reporting in Pattaya and does not cater to the fact that a significant percentage of 90 day reporting customers simply left the country beforehand on an overseas visit (case in point, offshore oil workers or trip based retirees), other people manage 90 reporting via mail and some people ignore it completely - yet other do 90 reports in locations other than where they live.

Finally, an earlier poster reported some figures from the French Embassy whereby there were 1074 French ex-pats living in the Pattaya area during 2011, on that basis it would seem unlikely and improbable that the French comprise a whopping ten per cent of the ex-pat community in Pattaya. According to statistics provided in Wiki, proportionally the Chinese and Indians are likley to represent the largest segment hence yet again the figure of 10k comes across as too few and incorrrect.

So no, I don't think your numbers are as sound as you think they are but we may be getting closer, trouble is we may never know.

Edited August 27, 2012 by chiang mai

[chiang mai]

BTW, almost forgot: I was in Chiang Mai Immigration last week getting a rentry permit and was talking to an English chap whilst waiting to be served, he was waiting to do his 90 day report and he had ticket number 286 and this was at 3pm in an office where there appears to be only a single officer handling 90 day reports - (there are four queue ticket channels and 90 day is a dedicated channel and tickets are handed out by a student officer). On that basis it seems that your estimate of 120 per day may be very low.

[JanKlaasen]

BTW, almost forgot: I was in Chiang Mai Immigration last week getting a rentry permit and was talking to an English chap whilst waiting to be served, he was waiting to do his 90 day report and he had ticket number 286 and this was at 3pm in an office where there appears to be only a single officer handling 90 day reports - (there are four queue ticket channels and 90 day is a dedicated channel and tickets are handed out by a student officer). On that basis it seems that your estimate of 120 per day may be very low.

You probably noticed that the queue tickets are issued according to the desk number.Desk 2 starts from 200,desk 3 starts from 300.So in fact his ticket 286 was actually the 86 th that day.

[chiang mai]

BTW, almost forgot: I was in Chiang Mai Immigration last week getting a rentry permit and was talking to an English chap whilst waiting to be served, he was waiting to do his 90 day report and he had ticket number 286 and this was at 3pm in an office where there appears to be only a single officer handling 90 day reports - (there are four queue ticket channels and 90 day is a dedicated channel and tickets are handed out by a student officer). On that basis it seems that your estimate of 120 per day may be very low.

You probably noticed that the queue tickets are issued according to the desk number.Desk 2 starts from 200,desk 3 starts from 300.So in fact his ticket 286 was actually the 86 th that day.

I hadn't noticed that but if you say so.

[Mobi]

The British ambassador stated last year that there are 51,000 Brits who are resident in Thailand and also 850,000 Brits who visit Thailand every year.

I have no idea how he came up with the figure of 51,000 but if that is the number who have registered their details with the embassy, then one must assume that the actual figure is much higher, as a great number would never bother to register, especially given the low regard in which many hold their embassy.

And also, I wonder how many of the 850,000 visitors could also be classed as residents.

This whole subject is a moveable feast and who knows what the numbers really are?

Nobody, I suspect.

The figure is based, as you correctly assume, on the number of people registered with the Embassy - which also in part justifies Embassy manning levels on the number of residents and visitors. Many, as you also assume correctly, do not register with the Embassy and some visitors register as a matter of routine. Far more significantly, virtually no residents or tourists bother to de-register with their Embassy on leaving so unless they die in Thailand their name stays on the register indefinitely - making your assumption that the number is much higher invalid, as the register is meaningless as far as actual numbers of residents is concerned (as are the figure from other Embassies for the same reasons).

The figure of 850,000 British tourists is the figure given by the Tourist Authority of Thailand who produce statistics on visitors by nationality every year (all are available on the net); Britain has dropped from fourth to ninth in the last ten years. Even this figure is inflated as anyone visiting the country is registered each time they visit, whether they are a visitor from Malaysia coming here for a weekend or RabC coming to "reside" here every other month (and being counted six times).

You could be correct, but I am not wholly convinced.

The reason is that on two separate occasions through the years I have registered with the embassy - the first when i went there to swear an affidavit, and they second more recently when we had the riots in Bangkok.

The reason I registered twice was because after my first registration I used to receive regular notices etc from the embassy by email but they stopped after a year or so. I assumed that they had removed me from their list so in 2010 I registered again.

Once more I received email notices for a while and once again after a year or so they ceased.

This suggests to me that they must remove registrations from their list if you do not regularly confirm that you are still living in Thailand. Maybe there is something on their website about this - I can't be bothered looking.

On the other hand it may be down to incompetence by those responsible for sending out the emails, in which case I am probably down as two residents!!!

But surely they wouldn't be so stupid in these days of austerity to base staffing numbers on dubious numbers of British residents. If anything they would err on the low side - hence taking me off their list after a year.They must be more aware than us that thousands Brits are coming and going all the time. The ambassador seemed to have his head screwed on quite well as far as I could see.

Who knows for sure?

[Mobi]

It matter not a jot what someone's legal status is in Thailand - resident, non resident, immigrant, non immigrant, temporary resident, retirement/marriage visa extension, over stayer and so forth.

The OP was interested to know - as I am also - roughly how many foreigners live in Pattaya. I would say a rough definition of 'living' here is anyone who spends 9 months or more in Thailand in each year, and either owns or rents a home on a medium-long term basis, regardless of their precise legal status.

The 90 day reporting is a total red herring as every time you leave the country and you return, you re-set the clock for the 90 days reporting requirement, and if you make frequent short trips to neighbouring countries, etc within 90 days, you may never have to report to immigration. But that doesn't mean you are not spending at least 9 months here in your own home.

Some say you must report every 90 days regardless of when you leave the country for a short trip but this simply isn't the case, as I have proved on countless occasions through the years. My visa advisor , who has very strong contacts in immigration, confirms this is so, even though the immigration officers will never admit it if you go to make your 90 day report, having left the country and returned within the 90 days.

They will just stamp you up for another 90 days regardless.

It seems to me to be almost impossible for any organisation in Thailand to accurately assess the number of foreigners 'living here' and if I was them, I'd be quite concerned about it.

Until they introduce a system whereby all aliens living here more than 90 days are required to register and report on a regular basis to their local amphur, regardless of their immigrant status, then they will never know for sure, and nor will we.

[ballbreaker]

For those interested Google "Thailand migration report 2011" and read the pdf file. Its a couple years out of date but it does put numbers on different categories of foreigners staying in Thailand. It was generated by International Organization for Migration (IOM) with data provided by immigration. Most of the data was for the period late 2009 and early 2010.

Here are numbers for just a few of the categories from one of the charts.

Professional, skilled and semi-skilled workers

• Foreigners with work permits 100,338

• Diplomats and officials 6,148

Other temporary stay

• Stay with Thais 14,946

• Stay with Thai wife 11,381

• Stay with resident families 1,098

• Retirement 28,509

• Others (including medical treatment and study) 65,175

[DrTuner]

Only 11381 with marriage extensions .. I'm surprised. Would've thought it's higher. Although the "Stay with Thais" could be married with kids.

[chiang mai]

For those interested Google "Thailand migration report 2011" and read the pdf file. Its a couple years out of date but it does put numbers on different categories of foreigners staying in Thailand. It was generated by International Organization for Migration (IOM) with data provided by immigration. Most of the data was for the period late 2009 and early 2010.

Here are numbers for just a few of the categories from one of the charts.

Professional, skilled and semi-skilled workers

• Foreigners with work permits 100,338

• Diplomats and officials 6,148

Other temporary stay

• Stay with Thais 14,946

• Stay with Thai wife 11,381

• Stay with resident families 1,098

• Retirement 28,509

• Others (including medical treatment and study) 65,175

I'm afraid those numbers are even less credible than anything we've seen thus far, no offense intended BB but 11k marriage visa's and 28.5K retirement visa's seems woefully low.

[Pattaya46]

but 11k marriage visa's and 28.5K retirement visa's seems woefully low.

Low compared to what?

I suppose most married guys don't use the "Stay with Thai wife" Visa option to stay in Thailand.

They could have a Work Permit, a retirement visa, a Tourist visa, a O visa, ... or no visa

Surrely the number of "married to a Thai wife" is (a lot) bigger, but it's something different.

[tropo]

Resident expats have to do 90 day reporting so the number should be well known. Maybe a Howard Miller or Barry Kenyon could answer this.

Complete rubbish, loads of expats don't utilise visas that require 90 day reporting.

What visas are those? I was under the impression that every person using a non-immigrant visa must report. I don't think too many would have gone for citizenship or permanent residence.

[tropo]

Resident expats have to do 90 day reporting so the number should be well known. Maybe a Howard Miller or Barry Kenyon could answer this.

Complete rubbish, loads of expats don't utilise visas that require 90 day reporting.

The topic is "resident" expats not tourists. Tourists are reported by their hotel, etc. Expats with retirement visas, work permits, etc. must do 90 reporting. So not complete rubbish for those that can read.

I see ignorance is bliss, I have lived here 12 years and not once made a 90 day report to immigration. I work offshore in oil/gas so spend less than 90 days here at any one time but close to 7 months a year living here, so class myself as a resident and not a tourist.

I say you're a tourist, not an expat. You're not the only "tourist" who spends 7 months a year here.

[JanKlaasen]

Resident expats have to do 90 day reporting so the number should be well known. Maybe a Howard Miller or Barry Kenyon could answer this.

Complete rubbish, loads of expats don't utilise visas that require 90 day reporting.

What visas are those? I was under the impression that every person using a non-immigrant visa must report. I don't think too many would have gone for citizenship or permanent residence.

Multiple entry Non-immigrant B or O are available and have to do borderruns every 90 days instead of reporting.As I said in an earlier post, I made use of these for almost 14 years untill I qualified for a retirement visa.

[chiang mai]

but 11k marriage visa's and 28.5K retirement visa's seems woefully low.

Low compared to what?

I suppose most married guys don't use the "Stay with Thai wife" Visa option to stay in Thailand.

They could have a Work Permit, a retirement visa, a Tourist visa, a O visa, ... or no visa

Surrely the number of "married to a Thai wife" is (a lot) bigger, but it's something different.

Compared to the 600k expats that live in Thailand and as a percentage thereof.

[Pattaya46]

Compared to the 600k expats that live in Thailand

Where does this 600k come from? It seem way over the reality.

But maybe you should give your definition of "expat"...

And as I said before people often use the "Stay with Thai wife" Visa option in last solution.

Figures in post 50 is just a part of the table from the report.

It does not show people living here with Tourist Visa, with no visa, with ED visa, ... so many.

[tropo]

Compared to the 600k expats that live in Thailand

Where does this 600k come from? It seem way over the reality.

But maybe you should give your definition of "expat"...

And as I said before people often use the "Stay with Thai wife" Visa option in last solution.

Figures in post 50 is just a part of the table from the report.

It does not show people living here with Tourist Visa, with no visa, with ED visa, ... so many.

Can tourists (people on tourist visas or 30 day visa exempt entries) or people on ED visas be classified as expats?

[JanKlaasen]

Compared to the 600k expats that live in Thailand

Where does this 600k come from? It seem way over the reality.

But maybe you should give your definition of "expat"...

And as I said before people often use the "Stay with Thai wife" Visa option in last solution.

Figures in post 50 is just a part of the table from the report.

It does not show people living here with Tourist Visa, with no visa, with ED visa, ... so many.

Can tourists (people on tourist visas or 30 day visa exempt entries) or people on ED visas be classified as expats?

Definition for expat:

Web definitions:

exile: a person who is voluntarily absent from home or country; "American expatriates".

Has nothing to do with kind of visa in my book.