Commission Says 'men In Black' May Have Got Cooperation From Red Shirts

[animatic]

The other shoe drops, finally.

[473geo]

Yes another major military gaff, should have planned one strike and one strike only.......go in and clear the protestors,why prolong the inevitable.......poor strategy, incompetence, poor management.......caused many needless deaths

Had the military planned one strike and one strike only, we don't know how that would have ended. Maybe less people dead, maybe more. Either way i'm sure you would be on here just as you are now, blaming it all on everyone bar the reds, and telling us all the answers for how it should have been handled. Hindsight and a comfy chair miles away from danger are nice luxuries.

I think I recall in reports on the main dispersal, despite the troops firing randomly into the crowd and shouting surrender or we will kill you, there were only 6 deaths, not including the deaths in the wat, would you count them as deaths caused by the dispersal? then we have an opproximate total based on the actual dispersal, yes?

Maybe a safe distance also encourages lateral thought.....

[siampolee]

Going rate at the time to reach the office varied from 50 to 100 baht depending on the extortionists on duty ,wife's handbag searched and oldest son was asked why his father wasn't supporting Thaksin and the Red Shirt movement.

Pure intimidation nothing more nothing less.Indeed the Thaksin nightmare of democracy was being practiced on a trial run.

People are now coming to realize just what Thaksin and his ilk stand for, a despotic bunch of tyrants intent on enriching themselves and their families.,

Thaksin is indeed a fine example of a liberator of the oppressed, much like Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung,Hun Sen. Pol Pot etc

Edited September 15, 2012 by siampolee

[Rooo]

Several reports about off topic conversations. Please keep it to the topic on hand, I really don't like deleting posts.

Thank you.

[rixalex]

The French has no reason to lie.

Also, they are shooting the film from the army side (friend), not from the Red-shirt side (foe).

http://www.france24....ctly-protesters

Grenade goes off, seven soldiers killed, colonel with head injury.. after that, yeah, i think the stage of firing warning shots up into the air might have passed.

Seven soldiers killed? Actually still a tragic 5 but let's not get carried away.

Chotthee assured me French don't lie. It was their number.

[473geo]

Going rate at the time to reach the office varied from 50 to 100 baht depending on the extortionists on duty ,wife's handbag searched and oldest son was asked why his father wasn't supporting Thaksin and the Red Shirt movement.

Pure intimidation nothing more nothing less.Indeed the Thaksin nightmare of democracy was being practiced on a trial run.

People are now coming to realize just what Thaksin and his ilk stand for, a despotic bunch of tyrants intent on enriching themselves and their families.,

Thaksin is indeed a fine example of a liberator of the oppressed, much like Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung,Hun Sen. Pol Pot etc

You appear to overlook the fact that a recent poll, accurate or not, did state that 83 percent of the people polled said Yingluck should continue as PM

Edited September 15, 2012 by 473geo

[Nickymaster]

Going rate at the time to reach the office varied from 50 to 100 baht depending on the extortionists on duty ,wife's handbag searched and oldest son was asked why his father wasn't supporting Thaksin and the Red Shirt movement.

Pure intimidation nothing more nothing less.Indeed the Thaksin nightmare of democracy was being practiced on a trial run.

People are now coming to realize just what Thaksin and his ilk stand for, a despotic bunch of tyrants intent on enriching themselves and their families.,

Thaksin is indeed a fine example of a liberator of the oppressed, much like Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung,Hun Sen. Pol Pot etc

You appear to overlook the fact that a recent poll, accurate or not, did state that 83 percent of the people polled said Yingluck should continue as PM

Yes YS should continue as PM for the whole term (unless proven she is corrupt) otherwise we will never know how good she really is at managing this country.

[Nickymaster]

Going rate at the time to reach the office varied from 50 to 100 baht depending on the extortionists on duty ,wife's handbag searched and oldest son was asked why his father wasn't supporting Thaksin and the Red Shirt movement.

Pure intimidation nothing more nothing less.Indeed the Thaksin nightmare of democracy was being practiced on a trial run.

People are now coming to realize just what Thaksin and his ilk stand for, a despotic bunch of tyrants intent on enriching themselves and their families.,

Thaksin is indeed a fine example of a liberator of the oppressed, much like Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung,Hun Sen. Pol Pot etc

You appear to overlook the fact that a recent poll, accurate or not, did state that 83 percent of the people polled said Yingluck should continue as PM

Yes YS should continue as PM for the whole term (unless proven she is corrupt) otherwise we will never know how good she really is at managing this country.

Have to admit this is really off topic.

[rixalex]

You appear to overlook the fact that a recent poll, accurate or not, did state that 83 percent of the people polled said Yingluck should continue as PM

What is the alternative to her not continuing? Having Chalerm take over? There being a coup and her being kicked out?

I think Thai people just want to have some stability. I bet if you asked them do you think Yingluck is doing a good job, or is Yingluck just a puppet for her brother, you would learn a lot more about how people feel about her.

[473geo]

Going rate at the time to reach the office varied from 50 to 100 baht depending on the extortionists on duty ,wife's handbag searched and oldest son was asked why his father wasn't supporting Thaksin and the Red Shirt movement.

Pure intimidation nothing more nothing less.Indeed the Thaksin nightmare of democracy was being practiced on a trial run.

People are now coming to realize just what Thaksin and his ilk stand for, a despotic bunch of tyrants intent on enriching themselves and their families.,

Thaksin is indeed a fine example of a liberator of the oppressed, much like Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung,Hun Sen. Pol Pot etc

You appear to overlook the fact that a recent poll, accurate or not, did state that 83 percent of the people polled said Yingluck should continue as PM

Yes YS should continue as PM for the whole term (unless proven she is corrupt) otherwise we will never know how good she really is at managing this country.

Correct, or how bad, it is the way forward, let the Thai electorate make the decision at the next election. What a shame Abhisit did not follow this train of thought and step down......then there would have been no deaths at all...(keeping on topic)

Edited September 15, 2012 by 473geo

[473geo]

You appear to overlook the fact that a recent poll, accurate or not, did state that 83 percent of the people polled said Yingluck should continue as PM

What is the alternative to her not continuing? Having Chalerm take over? There being a coup and her being kicked out?

I think Thai people just want to have some stability. I bet if you asked them do you think Yingluck is doing a good job, or is Yingluck just a puppet for her brother, you would learn a lot more about how people feel about her.

A rather telling post, you do not even put the democrats in the frame as an alternative..............

[Nickymaster]

Going rate at the time to reach the office varied from 50 to 100 baht depending on the extortionists on duty ,wife's handbag searched and oldest son was asked why his father wasn't supporting Thaksin and the Red Shirt movement.

Pure intimidation nothing more nothing less.Indeed the Thaksin nightmare of democracy was being practiced on a trial run.

People are now coming to realize just what Thaksin and his ilk stand for, a despotic bunch of tyrants intent on enriching themselves and their families.,

Thaksin is indeed a fine example of a liberator of the oppressed, much like Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung,Hun Sen. Pol Pot etc

You appear to overlook the fact that a recent poll, accurate or not, did state that 83 percent of the people polled said Yingluck should continue as PM

Yes YS should continue as PM for the whole term (unless proven she is corrupt) otherwise we will never know how good she really is at managing this country.

Correct, or how bad, it is the way forward, let the Thai electorate make the decision at the next election. What a shame Abhisit did not follow this train of thought and step down......then there would have been no deaths at all...(keeping on topic)

Are you conveniently ignoring the "unless proven she/he is corrupt" part of my post?

Edited September 15, 2012 by Nickymaster

[rixalex]

You appear to overlook the fact that a recent poll, accurate or not, did state that 83 percent of the people polled said Yingluck should continue as PM

What is the alternative to her not continuing? Having Chalerm take over? There being a coup and her being kicked out?

I think Thai people just want to have some stability. I bet if you asked them do you think Yingluck is doing a good job, or is Yingluck just a puppet for her brother, you would learn a lot more about how people feel about her.

A rather telling post, you do not even put the democrats in the frame as an alternative..............

Why would i? Unless PTP has done something stupid that involves breaking the law and they get caught and decide to not call an election, the Dems are not in the frame.

[473geo]

Correct, or how bad, it is the way forward, let the Thai electorate make the decision at the next election. What a shame Abhisit did not follow this train of thought and step down......then there would have been no deaths at all...(keeping on topic)

Are you conveniently ignoring the "unless proven she/he is corrupt" part of my post?

As Buchholz once stated regarding the drug wars, innocent until proved otherwise by legal process. Now what exactly am I supposed to be ignoring?

[maidu]

"Both [sides] believe they were victims. The operation by the 'men in black' were very instrumental in creating and elevating the violence with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives," page 184 of the report read.

...

...

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple, the report added.

Let me hear from the usual defenders of the red realm how they feel about these quotes from the article.

An M16 was later discovered inside the temple,

What, 3 days later like in Lumpini?

"with the aim of provoking the Army to use weapons against protesters and wanting to exact the loss of lives,"

In this context and without more information, this in nothing more than speculative. A lot like posters on TVF

There has to be some speculation. We don't have 100 videos going from a 100 different angles, but we have some observations coupled with common sense. Those who defend the Reds and Black shirts will keep trotting out that canard, "show us the precise proof" stuff. It was clear to many of those getting shot at (on the authorities' side) which side was doing the shooting. Some security forces were trying to do their duty (trying to avoid mayhem ruling Bkk) by shooting back. The only fault I can see with Abhisit was he was too eager to be nice and accommodating. Instead, he should have got the cops and army to do their duty SOONER. and a lot of the ensuing deaths could have been avoided. If the cops wimped-out on their duties (which they did) he should have fired top brass faster than you can say "Protect Bangkok citizens."

[473geo]

You appear to overlook the fact that a recent poll, accurate or not, did state that 83 percent of the people polled said Yingluck should continue as PM

What is the alternative to her not continuing? Having Chalerm take over? There being a coup and her being kicked out?

I think Thai people just want to have some stability. I bet if you asked them do you think Yingluck is doing a good job, or is Yingluck just a puppet for her brother, you would learn a lot more about how people feel about her.

A rather telling post, you do not even put the democrats in the frame as an alternative..............

Why would i? Unless PTP has done something stupid that involves breaking the law and they get caught and decide to not call an election, the Dems are not in the frame.

Possibly not even then......

[rubl]

Going rate at the time to reach the office varied from 50 to 100 baht depending on the extortionists on duty ,wife's handbag searched and oldest son was asked why his father wasn't supporting Thaksin and the Red Shirt movement.

Pure intimidation nothing more nothing less.Indeed the Thaksin nightmare of democracy was being practiced on a trial run.

People are now coming to realize just what Thaksin and his ilk stand for, a despotic bunch of tyrants intent on enriching themselves and their families.,

Thaksin is indeed a fine example of a liberator of the oppressed, much like Joe Stalin, Mao Tse Tung,Hun Sen. Pol Pot etc

You appear to overlook the fact that a recent poll, accurate or not, did state that 83 percent of the people polled said Yingluck should continue as PM

Yes YS should continue as PM for the whole term (unless proven she is corrupt) otherwise we will never know how good she really is at managing this country.

Correct, or how bad, it is the way forward, let the Thai electorate make the decision at the next election. What a shame Abhisit did not follow this train of thought and step down......then there would have been no deaths at all...(keeping on topic)

You lost me here, dear geo. A bit incoherent, I think. You do know that k. Abhisit called for early elections, about 11 months before he had to? Also in my timeline that's a wee bit AFTER the March - May 2010 peaceful protests. The one which saw MiB introduced on April 10th as retaliation for the May violence

[Nickymaster]

Correct, or how bad, it is the way forward, let the Thai electorate make the decision at the next election. What a shame Abhisit did not follow this train of thought and step down......then there would have been no deaths at all...(keeping on topic)

Are you conveniently ignoring the "unless proven she/he is corrupt" part of my post?

As Buchholz once stated regarding the drug wars, innocent until proved otherwise by legal process. Now what exactly am I supposed to be ignoring?

Have a nice day twister.

[Moruya]

Yes another major military gaff, should have planned one strike and one strike only.......go in and clear the protestors,why prolong the inevitable.......poor strategy, incompetence, poor management.......caused many needless deaths

Had the military planned one strike and one strike only, we don't know how that would have ended. Maybe less people dead, maybe more. Either way i'm sure you would be on here just as you are now, blaming it all on everyone bar the reds, and telling us all the answers for how it should have been handled. Hindsight and a comfy chair miles away from danger are nice luxuries.

I think I recall in reports on the main dispersal, despite the troops firing randomly into the crowd and shouting surrender or we will kill you, there were only 6 deaths, not including the deaths in the wat, would you count them as deaths caused by the dispersal? then we have an opproximate total based on the actual dispersal, yes?

Maybe a safe distance also encourages lateral thought.....

The only facts you choose to remember are the ones you wish to remember.

Unfortunately that makes your posts one sided, half witted and of zero credibility.

[473geo]

You lost me here, dear geo. A bit incoherent, I think. You do know that k. Abhisit called for early elections, about 11 months before he had to? Also in my timeline that's a wee bit AFTER the March - May 2010 peaceful protests. The one which saw MiB introduced on April 10th as retaliation for the May violence

Sorry Rubl I may be incoherent in your view, but I'm also struggling to get the point of your post, excepting a poor attempt at an insult, please would you try to explain your point in an alternative way that I may respond once I can decipher your scribings

[maidu]

Yes YS should continue as PM for the whole term (unless proven she is corrupt) otherwise we will never know how good she really is at managing this country.

That's like saying; "the captain of the Titanic (Thaitanic) should keep steering the ship forward, regardless of scraping an iceberg, to see how good he really is at managing this ship."

[473geo]

Yes another major military gaff, should have planned one strike and one strike only.......go in and clear the protestors,why prolong the inevitable.......poor strategy, incompetence, poor management.......caused many needless deaths

Had the military planned one strike and one strike only, we don't know how that would have ended. Maybe less people dead, maybe more. Either way i'm sure you would be on here just as you are now, blaming it all on everyone bar the reds, and telling us all the answers for how it should have been handled. Hindsight and a comfy chair miles away from danger are nice luxuries.

I think I recall in reports on the main dispersal, despite the troops firing randomly into the crowd and shouting surrender or we will kill you, there were only 6 deaths, not including the deaths in the wat, would you count them as deaths caused by the dispersal? then we have an opproximate total based on the actual dispersal, yes?

Maybe a safe distance also encourages lateral thought.....

The only facts you choose to remember are the ones you wish to remember.

(rant snipped)

I am unique on Tvisa....thank you....

I could mention that the redhsirts were seen to be returning fire during the dispersal, but you see according to many on the forum if you are being fired at with live amnuntion, you are entitled to respond in any manner you wish.......who am I to disagree

[Buchholz]

As Buchholz once stated regarding the drug wars, innocent until proved otherwise by legal process. Now what exactly am I supposed to be ignoring?

what was said...

Red Shirts equating to heavily armed drug dealers. If you say so.

No Buchholz, this is the impression you have been projecting.........but apparently by your own word.......ALL of the people killed were innocent

I've never previously equated the Red Shirts to heavily armed drug dealers. You did.

I also have never tried to make Drug War killings analogous to the Red Shirts, eg. How many Army soldiers died during the Drug War? How many Red Shirts that died were children?

[bigbamboo]

Are these the same men in black Chalerm says didn't actually exist?

Or has he had them eradicated in the last three months?

[Nickymaster]

Had the military planned one strike and one strike only, we don't know how that would have ended. Maybe less people dead, maybe more. Either way i'm sure you would be on here just as you are now, blaming it all on everyone bar the reds, and telling us all the answers for how it should have been handled. Hindsight and a comfy chair miles away from danger are nice luxuries.

I think I recall in reports on the main dispersal, despite the troops firing randomly into the crowd and shouting surrender or we will kill you, there were only 6 deaths, not including the deaths in the wat, would you count them as deaths caused by the dispersal? then we have an opproximate total based on the actual dispersal, yes?

Maybe a safe distance also encourages lateral thought.....

The only facts you choose to remember are the ones you wish to remember.

(rant snipped)

I am unique on Tvisa....thank you....

I could mention that the redhsirts were seen to be returning fire during the dispersal, but you see according to many on the forum if you are being fired at with live amnuntion, you are entitled to respond in any manner you wish.......who am I to disagree

20 officials died, 70 protestors died. Amazing ratio. All very sad but tell me which other Democracy in this world would allow this to happen. In any western country a cop is allowed to shoot and kill if he is being attacked with a weapon, even if he feels threatened when somebody with any kind of weapon is approaching him. That must be one of the reason they carry weapons..

Aah you are saying that the poor reds were only returning fire. Wooaw, haven’t heard that scenario yet.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Nickymaster

[473geo]

20 officials died, 70 protestors died. Amazing ratio. All very sad but tell me which other Democracy in this world would allow this to happen. In any western country a cop is allowed to shoot and kill if he is being attacked with a weapon, even if he feels threatened when somebody with any kind of weapon is approaching him. That must be one of the reason they carry weapons..

Aah you are saying that the poor reds were only returning fire. Wooaw, haven’t heard that scenario yet.

You didn't know the reds were returning fire........yet you question my memory earlier in the thread

[473geo]

As Buchholz once stated regarding the drug wars, innocent until proved otherwise by legal process. Now what exactly am I supposed to be ignoring?

what was said...

(but not what 473 was referring to snipped)

Wrong quote Buchholz.......back to the search engine for you.....

[Nickymaster]

20 officials died, 70 protestors died. Amazing ratio. All very sad but tell me which other Democracy in this world would allow this to happen. In any western country a cop is allowed to shoot and kill if he is being attacked with a weapon, even if he feels threatened when somebody with any kind of weapon is approaching him. That must be one of the reason they carry weapons..

Aah you are saying that the poor reds were only returning fire. Wooaw, haven’t heard that scenario yet.

You didn't know the reds were returning fire........yet you question my memory earlier in the thread

Not knowing something IS NOT a memory issue. Not remembering something IS a memory issue.

Your case is a judgement issue.

You are welcome!

Edited September 15, 2012 by Nickymaster

[473geo]

Let me refer you to my first post on this thread

"Most of the comments on this thread give the impression that many posters have missed the underlying purpose of this report

It would not be a smart move to try and lay the whole of the blame on the RTA if you are in government, conflict with the RTA does not bode well for a government

The government must apportion some blame on the RTA to enable the compensation payments regarding the injured and dead thus accomodating the red shirt following

The quoted elements of the report provide vague descriptions and inconclusive comment

Yep just what is required, a report all sides could accept and move on

But will the Thai accept?.....probably.......but certainly not posters on Tvisa I would suspect"

Edited September 15, 2012 by 473geo

[Buchholz]

As Buchholz once stated regarding the drug wars, innocent until proved otherwise by legal process. Now what exactly am I supposed to be ignoring?

what was said...

(but not what 473 was referring to snipped)

Wrong quote Buchholz.......back to the search engine for you.....

Sorry if highlighting your misuse of what I said interferes with you said I said.

Perhaps next time, just provide the actual quote yourself.

OR

just keep it on the topic of Men In Black and not derail onto Thaksin's horrific Drug Wars.

.

.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Buchholz