Are Falang Bars/restaurants Actually Worth The Hassle?

[Mosha]

I remember our last trip to Phuket. There was a beerbar alley, next door to where we stayed. Noise never a problem even though the bars were loud. However every other bar had a for sale sign up. These were just your basic beer bars. Nothing fancy. This was the year after the London bombings 2006

[Songhua]

What makes a succesful Thai restaurant in Australia songhua?

I took my GF on a road trip from Sydney to Sunshine coast. Absolutely no problems finding Thai food. Every town seems to have one at least.

You're right BookMan. In fact there are probably more Thai restaurants in Oz than Chinese and Indian combined.

The answer to your question is in your question ... finding the niche ie the 'one' area that doesn't have one.

If you'd asked fifteen years ago what made a successful one, the answer would have been that it had to be authentic. What many of the more longstanding ones seem to have failed to adapt to is that most of their customers don't want that anymore. At least sixty percent of our customers say they don't want anything spicy! In fact, we could still do 3/4 of our turnover by taking everything off the menu except pad thai, cashew chicken and green curry. Quite sad really coz we make a great larb ( but rarely ever sell it!)

As it relates to the topic, I guess the answer lies in that same concept - adapting. We all know guys have gone broke operating bars and so forth (including me) but if they sat back on BangLa or Walking St for just ten minutes and watched the throngs they'd realise that bars aren't what they (the majority) want anymore. 'Sure, they're fun to look at and there's few odd drunks in them (not spending much) but I don't wanna actually go to one'

The other thing is, it looks like it'd be easy. NO business should be easy. It's not like buying a house ... if you don't have the purchase price and then twice that much again as a back-up, you don't have enough.

By the way, relevant question .... I'm on the Sunshine Coast.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Songhua

[BookMan]

What makes a succesful Thai restaurant in Australia songhua?

I took my GF on a road trip from Sydney to Sunshine coast. Absolutely no problems finding Thai food. Every town seems to have one at least.

You're right BookMan. In fact there are probably more Thai restaurants in Oz than Chinese and Indian combined.

The answer to your question is in your question ... finding the niche ie the 'one' area that doesn't have one.

If you'd asked fifteen years ago what made a successful one, the answer would have been that it had to be authentic. What many of the more longstanding ones seem to have failed to adapt to is that most of their customers don't want that anymore. At least sixty percent of our customers say they don't want anything spicy! In fact, we could still do 3/4 of our turnover by taking everything off the menu except pad thai, cashew chicken and green curry. Quite sad really coz we make a great larb ( but rarely ever sell it!)

As it relates to the topic, I guess the answer lies in that same concept - adapting. We all know guys have gone broke operating bars and so forth (including me) but if they sat back on BangLa or Walking St for just ten minutes and watched the throngs they'd realise that bars aren't what they (the majority) want anymore.

The other thing is, it looks like it'd be easy. NO business should be easy. It's not like buying a house ... if you don't have the purchase price and then twice that much again as a back-up, you don't have enough.

By the way, relevant question .... I'm on the Sunshine Coast.

Interesting stuff. I would have thought that with all the Australians travelling overseas they would want authentic and spicier Thai food. I know that's what I like! Just goes to show, what do i know!

[travelmann]

From my experience... I have not heard that many success stories.

I certainly wouldn't do it and I don't think its worth the hassle.

Thats because people here who do succeed dont advertise it for many reasons.

Failures make a much better story.

[Songhua]

Ask a tourist what they ate in Thailand. Better than a bet on the ponies they'll say pad thai.

I sat in a bar/restaurant in khaosan recently and estimated, based on count over time, that the lady across the street with the padthai cart would probably take 9000 baht for the day. Considering her low overheads, she's probably making more profit than most bar owners.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Songhua

[Banzai99]

The odds are stacked against you, it's a very difficult way to try to make money, if it was an easy money maker the Thais would do it, in general they don't.

They just collect rents instead.

[rgs2001uk]

Don't listen to the naysayers. If you think it through and get advice from those who've succeeded, you should be spared the ignominy of having your clocked cleaned. Sure, a lot of people fail in the bar industry but if you were look more closely at many of those failures, you'd find some pretty glaring mistakes that can be swerved with the most rudimentary common sense.

Aint that the truth, choose your partners and employess with the utmost care.

Examples I know of, all in Bkk.

Farang and ex BG wife, wife ripped the guy off.

Farang and ex BG wife, bar was just a means of employing the girl and her worthless family members.

Farang and ex BG GF, GF goes into the place as manager, she then invites all her freelancer mates round for free drinks while they ply their trade, what was once a successful bar goes down the pan.

Two farangs going into partnership, one an alcoholic who just wants a place to drink for free, the other partner goes out pissing it up in Soi Cowboy every night, when he runs out of money he heads back to his bar and pulls a couple of thousand from the till then heads back to SC, bar long since closed.

Next onto your employees, the cashier is the one who will make or break you.

Forget about employing some of the so called farang managers to be found wandering the lower Suk area, most just want to shag the staff and drink for free, before being found out for what they are, they then head back to farangland to work as taxi drivers until they can raise the cash to get back over here.

Most important, learn to at least speak the language, even better if you can read it as well.

[richardjm65]

If you arrive in Thailand, as a first timer, and find your way to the tourist areas, and you're not exceptionally bright, it does not take much to convince yourself that it's better than a wet winter Sunday in Southend. After your first few beers in your first few bars you get to think that with the lovely, friendly,(and often pretty), natives, the warmth, the easy availability of whatever you want, you could have a slice of this for yourself.

And guess what - here's a place with a "For Sale or Rent" sign. Having left your brains safely in the bucket next to inward immigration at the airport, and fuelled by the love that surrounds you, and a couple of mood enhancers, before you know it you've blown your loot on that bar/restaurant. Nobody's told you about work permits, key money or the trustworthy staff problems, or the boys in brown or the fact that the tourist season is actually quite short. But never mind, it's yours, together with the new and exciting life that goes with it. You've forgotten the fact that you haven't a clue about running any bar/restaurant, least of all in exotic Thailand, managing a difficult staff or dealing (sans work permit), with the folk who now run your life for you.

Your new girlfriend, you find, cannot cook and certainly does not want to learn. Your own skills as a glazier or exhaust system replacement technician don't quite do it and the next thing you know you're back at the airport, scrubbing through that bucket for your brain, having first posted a "For Sale or Rent" notice outside your investment.

So welcome back to Southend on a wet winter Sunday. We've got a window needs fixing or a blown exhaust wants replacing.

Come back to Thailand next year, why don'tcha.....

Edited September 17, 2012 by richardjm65

[RealisticRon]

^^^

[meatballs]

Doesn't work because there is probably too many of them.

If I ran a business here it would NOT be a bar or restaurant.

[chiangmaikelly]

The odds are stacked against you, it's a very difficult way to try to make money, if it was an easy money maker the Thais would do it, in general they don't.

They just collect rents instead.

10 million people in Bangkok. How many Farang do you think own bars? How many bars in Bangkok? How many rooftop bars in Bangkok? How many Farang own rooftop bars, Karaoke bars, how many massage places. How many Farang own bars on RCA? Reality? Thais own 99.9% of the bars in Thailand.

[chiangmaikelly]

Doesn't work because there is probably too many of them.

If I ran a business here it would NOT be a bar or restaurant.

My goodness guys it's simple. Good, well financed, restaurants and bars make money. Bad ones don't. If you have run a successful bar or restaurant for 20 years in London or NY you can do the same thing in Bangkok.

[BookMan]

Doesn't work because there is probably too many of them.

If I ran a business here it would NOT be a bar or restaurant.

If I ran a business here

Don't u do a website dating business from home in Thailand?

[HardenedSoul]

If you arrive in Thailand, as a first timer, and find your way to the tourist areas, and you're not exceptionally bright, it does not take much to convince yourself that it's better than a wet winter Sunday in Southend. After your first few beers in your first few bars you get to think that with the lovely, friendly,(and often pretty), natives, the warmth, the easy availability of whatever you want, you could have a slice of this for yourself.

And guess what - here's a place with a "For Sale or Rent" sign. Having left your brains safely in the bucket next to inward immigration at the airport, and fuelled by the love that surrounds you, and a couple of mood enhancers, before you know it you've blown your loot on that bar/restaurant. Nobody's told you about work permits, key money or the trustworthy staff problems, or the boys in brown or the fact that the tourist season is actually quite short. But never mind, it's yours, together with the new and exciting life that goes with it. You've forgotten the fact that you haven't a clue about running any bar/restaurant, least of all in exotic Thailand, managing a difficult staff or dealing (sans work permit), with the folk who now run your life for you.

Your new girlfriend, you find, cannot cook and certainly does not want to learn. Your own skills as a glazier or exhaust system replacement technician don't quite do it and the next thing you know you're back at the airport, scrubbing through that bucket for your brain, having first posted a "For Sale or Rent" notice outside your investment.

So welcome back to Southend on a wet winter Sunday. We've got a window needs fixing or a blown exhaust wants replacing.

Come back to Thailand next year, why don'tcha.....

Welcome back ta Kwik Fit

[HardenedSoul]

Doesn't work because there is probably too many of them.

If I ran a business here it would NOT be a bar or restaurant.

If I ran a business here

Don't u do a website dating business from home in Thailand?

Yeah I remember reading that last week.

Maybe he'd like to clear up the misunderstanding or, perhaps, re-register under a pseudonym and make sure all the fibs line up next time.

Truly sad

[mr78]

I rented a bar for a year and I did ok with it. I didn't make millions or anything, but I made enough to live and a little more. I had no previous experience in the bar business and got along fine with nothing but my common sense (it's not exactly rocket sience to run a bar). What I didn't count on was the dreadful boredom that comes with sitting in a bar all day, every day, having to talk about the same things over and over again (recommend travel destinations/tailors/restaurants/tattoo parlours/giving advice on just about everything etc. etc.) having to drink with the customers day in day out. If you don't drink with you'r customers you're a boring bar owner and the customer will find a funnier one. And to be frank, you really need to be drunk to endure listening to drunk people...

Boredom is a disease worse than cancer, and alcohol cures it.

So i began drinking more and more to cope with the boredom and restlessness (I've never been good at doing nothing, I allways need to have something to do) and after about a year I just couldn't stand it any more, so I drank all my stock and stumbled out of the bar and never looked back. Bar owning was fun for a month or so, after that not so fun, at all... During this year I drank a lifetime worth of alcohol and I can't really stand to be drunk anymore, which sux since I used to like beeing a bit tipsy from time to time...

Funny thing is that when i tell people about the above horrors of owning (in my case renting) a bar they look at me as if i was a mad man, because for most people I've met having a bar in Thailand is something they wish they would have done. I thought the same before I did it.

What I'm trying to say is that anybody that wasn't dropped on their head as a child can run a bar, and manage to live of it. However I don't think there is many people that can manage the boredom and alcohol consumption that comes with it.

[bdw]

back in the 80's when patts.was booming i saw a lot go under,you are only putting money in other people's pockets,went back to patts.last year did not see one that i knew.

You must not have went by the Tahitian Queen. It's been there since 1978.

Edited September 17, 2012 by bdw

[bangkokburning]

People here forget two things:

Farang come to Thailand because they want cheap. My years in Pattaya say only cheap survive.

Ultimately you are competing with Thais that are happy with less profit snd can live with that.

Thais have far less hassles and people to be paid off.

Only fools have FB business here

[Plucky]

Jesus that's harsh. I wonder how many people have lost the shirts off their back and everything they grafted years for back home?

Hi Submaniac. I was awaiting your below par input. This is an interesting discussion thank you very much. Not another chance to tell us all how Thai you are and then with your suit of pc invincibility go on to attack others.

Well if you ask a question and you want an honest response...I mean would you rather hear the truth or should we say what you want us to say?

It's like this. You're not the first to ask about owning a restaurant or bar. This has been discussed before. The people that actually did it came out of the woodwork. The near unanimous opinion is that it is ALOT of grief. Ask smokie about his bar. There's another post in the past three weeks (from one of our Scandanivian posters) who opened up a restaurant and got denied a liquor license because it was near a school. There's posts from other members whose wives opened up a restaurant and they were merely "helping" in the restaurant and they got shaken down by the police. To be honest I can't really think of one post off the top of my head where I have ever read where a TV poster told a "success story" about opening a restaurant or bar. I have read "success stories" by posters (which I never know if it is true or not) about their business, but those aren't restaurant or bars.

The big issue is that as a non Thai you aren't supposed to work and all that. Supposing you could overcome that (which is difficult, but not impossible) you still have to run a business. Like finding a place, paying rent, paying employees, paying bills and whatnot. Yeah, when I started up from working for other people to doing it myself I learned alot of appreciation for what my previous employers had to put up with. It sounds so easy initially in your head, but once you actually try and do it....

[chiangmaikelly]

People here forget two things:

Farang come to Thailand because they want cheap. My years in Pattaya say only cheap survive.

Ultimately you are competing with Thais that are happy with less profit snd can live with that.

Thais have far less hassles and people to be paid off.

Only fools have FB business here

Trattoria Toscana, Cherrys, Hilton, All of the restaurants in Central mall and a dozen more in a current thread running in the Pattaya forum on good restaurants in Pattaya. You want difficult? Look at opening a restaurant with the health and labor laws in the US,UK or Australia; now that's hard. Pattaya is a piece of cake compared to a Denver building inspector!

If you have any experience Thailand is easy to open a business in. If not; you have a problem.

[chiangmaikelly]

I rented a bar for a year and I did ok with it. I didn't make millions or anything, but I made enough to live and a little more. I had no previous experience in the bar business and got along fine with nothing but my common sense (it's not exactly rocket sience to run a bar). What I didn't count on was the dreadful boredom that comes with sitting in a bar all day, every day, having to talk about the same things over and over again (recommend travel destinations/tailors/restaurants/tattoo parlours/giving advice on just about everything etc. etc.) having to drink with the customers day in day out. If you don't drink with you'r customers you're a boring bar owner and the customer will find a funnier one. And to be frank, you really need to be drunk to endure listening to drunk people...

Boredom is a disease worse than cancer, and alcohol cures it.

So i began drinking more and more to cope with the boredom and restlessness (I've never been good at doing nothing, I allways need to have something to do) and after about a year I just couldn't stand it any more, so I drank all my stock and stumbled out of the bar and never looked back. Bar owning was fun for a month or so, after that not so fun, at all... During this year I drank a lifetime worth of alcohol and I can't really stand to be drunk anymore, which sux since I used to like beeing a bit tipsy from time to time...

Funny thing is that when i tell people about the above horrors of owning (in my case renting) a bar they look at me as if i was a mad man, because for most people I've met having a bar in Thailand is something they wish they would have done. I thought the same before I did it.

What I'm trying to say is that anybody that wasn't dropped on their head as a child can run a bar, and manage to live of it. However I don't think there is many people that can manage the boredom and alcohol consumption that comes with it.

The first rule of running a bar is don't drink in your own bar!

[meatboy]

back in the 80's when patts.was booming i saw a lot go under,you are only putting money in other people's pockets,went back to patts.last year did not see one that i knew.

You must not have went by the Tahitian Queen. It's been there since 1978.

sorry i ment bar owners

[hedonist44]

First, you need to deal with all the legal issues of ownership and being allowed to work in your own business... basically, as owner of a bar, you are not even allowed to clean the tables without a work permit...

Second, you need to have a clear business plan... do you want to open a beer bar or a high-end restaurant? Do you have the know-how for such a business?

Third, you need to be ready and willing to work 7 days a week in your own business and treat yourself like a slave to keep it up and deal with all the hassle with staff not showing up for work the day after you paid their salary...

If you think you can manage all this - yes, you can have highly successful foreign-owned and managed businesses, but the only ones I have ever seen are high-end restaurants or pubs like Bruno's or Mulligans (both in Pattaya), so far I have never seen a successful foreign-owned beer-bar / girlie-bar.

Actually there are quite a few very successful beer bars and go-go's in Pattaya that have been around for years. I'm not saying their in the majority, but certainly are around and known to most long term residents into this sort of recreational activity.

Edited September 18, 2012 by hedonist44

[chiangmaikelly]

First, you need to deal with all the legal issues of ownership and being allowed to work in your own business... basically, as owner of a bar, you are not even allowed to clean the tables without a work permit...

Second, you need to have a clear business plan... do you want to open a beer bar or a high-end restaurant? Do you have the know-how for such a business?

Third, you need to be ready and willing to work 7 days a week in your own business and treat yourself like a slave to keep it up and deal with all the hassle with staff not showing up for work the day after you paid their salary...

If you think you can manage all this - yes, you can have highly successful foreign-owned and managed businesses, but the only ones I have ever seen are high-end restaurants or pubs like Bruno's or Mulligans (both in Pattaya), so far I have never seen a successful foreign-owned beer-bar / girlie-bar.

You don't get out much do you?

On Soi 8 I think. A few bars up from the beach. A Swiss guy. Is he still there? He has been there forever since the Immigration office was only a block away from him.

Edited September 18, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[hedonist44]

First, you need to deal with all the legal issues of ownership and being allowed to work in your own business... basically, as owner of a bar, you are not even allowed to clean the tables without a work permit...

Second, you need to have a clear business plan... do you want to open a beer bar or a high-end restaurant? Do you have the know-how for such a business?

Third, you need to be ready and willing to work 7 days a week in your own business and treat yourself like a slave to keep it up and deal with all the hassle with staff not showing up for work the day after you paid their salary...

If you think you can manage all this - yes, you can have highly successful foreign-owned and managed businesses, but the only ones I have ever seen are high-end restaurants or pubs like Bruno's or Mulligans (both in Pattaya), so far I have never seen a successful foreign-owned beer-bar / girlie-bar.

You don't get out much do you?

On Soi 8 I think. A few bars up from the beach. A Swiss guy. Is he still there? He has been there forever since the Immigration office was only a block away from him.

Not sure if he's still there or not as I've lived in CM the last 11 years and don't get to Pattaya as often as I'd like. But when in town I do still go to my old haunts like TQ's, Blue Parrot, Viking Beachcomer, Shamrock, Kronenburg for a few drinks and to meet up with old friends. There were a lot more expat owned beer bars in the past but most of the guys got old and died and so the places just dried up as the wifes could not/would not keep it going. This is the time when you did hear a Harley coming down the street, you knew who it was as there were only a few in town. Now days it's not even remotely the same as before and so I can see where a lot of people would never have heard of some of these places. I'm not saying it's better of worse now, but I do know I'm glad I moved to CM when I did:)

[chiangmaikelly]

I did the reverse I moved from CM to Pattaya. I was buying a restaurant in CM but too many people tried to cheat me or the business was overpriced. Pattaya is a lot cheaper to buy a business. Outside of a few high profile places the cops don't get involved. Then I got offered work in Pattaya, good pay and no risk so I took that because I'm old.

[hedonist44]

I did the reverse I moved from CM to Pattaya. I was buying a restaurant in CM but too many people tried to cheat me or the business was overpriced. Pattaya is a lot cheaper to buy a business. Outside of a few high profile places the cops don't get involved. Then I got offered work in Pattaya, good pay and no risk so I took that because I'm old.

I'll be in Pattaya this coming weekend for the JestersMC Grand Gala Night. I think I'll go and have a few beers at all my favorite non existent ex-pat owned places....

[chiangmaikelly]

I did the reverse I moved from CM to Pattaya. I was buying a restaurant in CM but too many people tried to cheat me or the business was overpriced. Pattaya is a lot cheaper to buy a business. Outside of a few high profile places the cops don't get involved. Then I got offered work in Pattaya, good pay and no risk so I took that because I'm old.

I'll be in Pattaya this coming weekend for the JestersMC Grand Gala Night. I think I'll go and have a few beers at all my favorite non existent ex-pat owned places....

You might want to look in the Pattaya forum now. The Beer Garden is getting a lot of praise or maybe the Tahitian Queen. The Queen has been thre since 1978 I think

[planemad]

I was a publican owning my own pubs in the UK for over 10 years. I had been involved in the trade for as long as I remember, so when the time came to buy, I knew what to expect. At the end of 10 years, I didnt make much money, but I did live well and left with pretty much what I had put into it.

During that time, I saw so many people wanting to come into the trade, many found a pub only to be out 12 months later, broken dreams and skint! I have heard many prospective owners making the remark that they wanted to "retire" to a nice pub! They will have had a rude awakening.

Owning a bar or pub is very hard work, the hours are long and you must have time to chat to every drunk who has a story to tell, no matter how many times you have heard it before. You must also remember that when money and booze is involved, EVERYONE is out to rob you. Family can be the worst offenders and "friends" who come to help out behind the bar are actually there to help themselves. Don't even consider taking a holiday, that is a prime time to be turned over, it happened to me twice.

All this was in the UK and I have to say, weighing things up, I really enjoyed the trade, however, it will drain the life out of you. I knew what I was doing, so when I see so many with no idea of what they are doing investing their savings into a bar, which isn't theirs in the first place, I just have a quiet chuckle to myself and wonder where they will be in 12 months time. Some will no doubt make it, most wont FACT!

Best advice I can give to anyone wanting to go into the pub game in Thailand, unless you have previous experience, done a lot of homework and chosen your venue carefully and have a credible business plan with realistic goals.....walk away or you are well on the way to becoming your own best customer.

Good Luck

KS

Edited September 18, 2012 by planemad

[hedonist44]

I was a publican owning my own pubs in the UK for over 10 years. I had been involved in the trade for as long as I remember, so when the time came to buy, I knew what to expect. At the end of 10 years, I didnt make much money, but I did live well and left with pretty much what I had put into it.

During that time, I saw so many people wanting to come into the trade, many found a pub only to be out 12 months later, broken dreams and skint! I have heard many prospective owners making the remark that they wanted to "retire" to a nice pub! They will have had a rude awakening.

Owning a bar or pub is very hard work, the hours are long and you must have time to chat to every drunk who has a story to tell, no matter how many times you have heard it before. You must also remember that when money and booze is involved, EVERYONE is out to rob you. Family can be the worst offenders and "friends" who come to help out behind the bar are actually there to help themselves. Don't even consider taking a holiday, that is a prime time to be turned over, it happened to me twice.

All this was in the UK and I have to say, weighing things up, I really enjoyed the trade, however, it will drain the life out of you. I knew what I was doing, so when I see so many with no idea of what they are doing investing their savings into a bar, which isn't theirs in the first place, I just have a quiet chuckle to myself and wonder where they will be in 12 months time. Some will no doubt make it, most wont FACT!

Best advice I can give to anyone wanting to go into the pub game in Thailand, unless you have previous experience, done a lot of homework and chosen your venue carefully and have a credible business plan with realistic goals.....walk away or you are well on the way to becoming your own best customer.

Good Luck

KS

I agree with you 100%. TQ's was the first go-go in Pattaya and is still going strong, but the owner who I have known very well since 1991 has put a lot into it and it has not all been a bed of roses for sure. I once asked him about opening up a bar similar to his years ago and his advise was no way. I took his advise and have been happy with that decision ever since. Looking back over the years at all the expat bar owners I have seen come with high hopes and walked away with nothing. Some I've seen have drank them selves to death or have just gotten so out of touch with reality they might as well have been dead. It's a hard life for sure and I have a lot of respect for those that have made it and have kept their health and sanity.

It's particularly hard to have a successful bar in Pattaya and not to have all the customers dependent on having to see you (the owner) sitting there every day drinking and talking to them. They get used to seeing you when ever they go and that's a hard habit to break, and even harder as a bar owner to keep up with. Some have succeeded in cutting down their hours in the bar and some have actually stopped drinking period, still managing to have a successful business. That's not easy to do and it say's a lot about the reputation that has been built up over the years and loads about the staff that has stayed by your side year end and year out.

My opinion would be not wide to open a bar or go-go now days unless your very well connected and have money to burn. It's about as simple as that with no in betweens.