It's Not What You Eat It Is The Way You Eat.

[robblok]

You believe so much in your story your like a yehova's witness. I try to put some reason in here.

I come here to give out good information, and critisise stuff that is crazy. Your story contains some good info but a lot of BS too. Just trying to help people.

So you admit you were wrong about the muscle turning to fat, and now you say that it happens to all heavyweight boxers and such. Its actually quite easy to remedy, just adjust your food intake. So its not something that will happen if you mind your food intake.

Yes the comparison is good, but you said the only difference was speed of eating.. but now you admit the diet is different too the french eat more fat.. Who is to say its not the fat instead of the speed of food intake. Like i said your observations are flawed is it so bad to point that out.

A diet per se is a temporary thing, so it will fail if you look at it like that. I like to just change my food intake and food choices permanent. Kinda like you do so this point we don't differ.

I never said anything about 30 minutes of hard training. I said 30 minutes of training is advised by almost all governments and they dont advise hard training. Again your reluctance to exercise shows.

You are right the alternative to a six pack is not a beer belly. And any progress is good.

Your method is not proven, like so many things it has some good things and some BS. I don't claim there is just one way to Rome like you are doing.

By your own admission about drinking one beer instead of many you are restricting calories. That is the basis of many food programs / diets. That has nothing to do with how fast you eat. Maybe you eat less by eating slower because your body signals its full faster.

Its a forum, i don't have to agree with you and you don't have to agree with me but when your saying things that are simply not true (like muscle turning to fat or things that are not proven to be true.. your French vs English thing then i reserve the right to comment) Just like you do too.

I have been minding my food and training for years (with lapses) so i know quite a bit about it. I made some great progress so what i do works too.

[tropo]

The comparison between the French and British is a good example, as if anything the French have a higher fat diet than the Brits, I know I have lived in both countries. The French spend hours eating a meal, the Brits minutes, then look at the women in both countries. However, as the French are now turning more and more to fast food, they too are getting noticeably fatter in larger numbers.The pressures of modern living. The same is true in Scandinavia where people spend time eating, I lived in Denmark too and they don't actually serve the food, so it is easy to stop when you are full, without offending the host and even start again if you wish.

It is true that all diets are different, but all are statistically counter-productive, if there was one that wasn't and wasn't based on high levels of willpower, it would render the others redundant. Generally speaking if you have lots of willpower you wouldn't be fat in the first place.

Your rant is so long I wouldn't know where to start, so let's start with these 2 gems....

You think if person has willpower they wouldn't be fat? Fat people can have plenty of willpower, but without a desire to lose weight it's irrelevant....... they may use their willpower for other endeavours. Some fat people may enjoy being fat - I've met some who are quite happy about it. My wife's mother loves being fat - with some Asians it can indicate social status.

Your comparison between Brits, French and other Northern Europeans to prove your point about the difference eating quickly or slowly makes to body fat levels is ridiculous. You'd need a very detailed study to prove that, rather than a personal observation (yours) from looking around the streets, especially because the diets in the different countries differ so much.

Just to be fair, yes I agree that eating more slowly can result in less food being eaten, but I don't believe it's the reason people are fat - that's mainly to do with what they eat, not how they eat it, and in particular too much refined carbohydrate foods. I think you'll find that many fat people eat slowly and many skinny people scoff their food quickly. In general I don't think you'll find a big variation in the average eating speeds amongst different populations.

I was a much slower eater than the rest of my family and I wasn't any fatter or leaner than the rest of them. Most people just eat what's on their plate and that's it, dinner's over.

You should consider the carbohydrate content of diets because with the number of people who are insulin resistant, pre-diabetic or diabetic (type 2) carbohydrates are the main catalysts to getting fat, not fat content of food. It has been shown in the USA that a higher carbohydrate diet has been responsible for the increased level of obesity of the general population. The current diet is higher in carbs and lower in fats than it used to be in the 70's and it shows.

You may want to do a study comparing the macro-nutrient content of Brit and French food.

[AllanB]

If you two guys don't agree with it, don't do it, simple. My guess is that you either don't have a weight problem, in which case go find another forum, or you just want an argument in which case go find another forum. Sorry lads, I really can't dumb down my explanation any further, or can't be bothered.

For the people for which this forum was designed, this is a system that works, so those of you who are interested give it a try for a few months, it will leave a legacy of good eating practice at the very least. It is pretty easy to do maintain, which is one reason it works and makes eating a pleasure. As you drop your weight a little, slowly increase you levels of exercise..

I will leave you with these words "eat well and feel good"

[AllanB]

Yes, I have been pretty naive, should have read some of the other threads and would have realised these guys have hijacked this section to sell their BS products for bodybuilders. Highly appropriate.

Guess this doesn't do them any favours, ooops!

So make your own minds up, who you believe?

[robblok]

Yes, I have been pretty naive, should have read some of the other threads and would have realised these guys have hijacked this section to sell their BS products for bodybuilders. Highly appropriate.

Guess this doesn't do them any favours, ooops!

So make your own minds up, who you believe?

Yes make your mind up who do you believe a guy with a BS story or people who workout for years and years and mind their food and get down to the lowest fat percentage possible for contests. The ones who live to look good. Or someone playing snooker and sipping beer.

Would you trust a professional or an amateur.

[robblok]

And alan your shot down because you cant back your story up and there are obvious holes in your explaining. It has nothing to do with bodybuilding, actually we almost never discuss it we are focused on loosing fat by training and eating well.

You don't seem to take criticism well.

[tropo]

If you two guys don't agree with it, don't do it, simple. My guess is that you either don't have a weight problem, in which case go find another forum, or you just want an argument in which case go find another forum. Sorry lads, I really can't dumb down my explanation any further, or can't be bothered.

For the people for which this forum was designed, this is a system that works, so those of you who are interested give it a try for a few months, it will leave a legacy of good eating practice at the very least. It is pretty easy to do maintain, which is one reason it works and makes eating a pleasure. As you drop your weight a little, slowly increase you levels of exercise..

I will leave you with these words "eat well and feel good"

I would say dropping 10kg since January and getting to under 10% bodyfat at age 53 qualifies me to post in this forum.

Yes, I have been pretty naive, should have read some of the other threads and would have realised these guys have hijacked this section to sell their BS products for bodybuilders. Highly appropriate.

Guess this doesn't do them any favours, ooops!

So make your own minds up, who you believe?

Neither of us sell supplements. You've been outed and now after a few days break you're coming back with more nonsense.

[AllanB]

Yes, I have been pretty naive, should have read some of the other threads and would have realised these guys have hijacked this section to sell their BS products for bodybuilders. Highly appropriate.

Guess this doesn't do them any favours, ooops!

So make your own minds up, who you believe?

Yes make your mind up who do you believe a guy with a BS story or people who workout for years and years and mind their food and get down to the lowest fat percentage possible for contests. The ones who live to look good. Or someone playing snooker and sipping beer.

Would you trust a professional or an amateur.

What does training as a professional body-builder have to do with obese people trying to lose some weight and keep it off? It is like putting a non-driver into a formula one racing car, he will be going nowhere, ever. You are so into yourselves you cant see anything at all, other than pumping iron and telling everyone else to do the same.

A fat guy pump iron without a mile of preparation, that you fail to mention, will simply kill him.

Someone suggested I wasn't very smart saying muscle turns to fat, which was merely an oversimplification of a fact, what you have suggested is just stupid, especially for someone who claims to be a professional.

I am an engineer, not a professional slimmer, body-builder, or anything related to the subject matter, but I am and always have been reasonably fit, playing the appropriate sports according to my age and level of fitness. I have worked with a lot with fat people and seen this system work almost without exception and watched their meagre self esteem rise and their weight decline and stay off. Their level of activity then increases as a direct consequence of this.

Self esteem is the key here, but your abandonment to rhetoric of telling all these fat people how great you look and how lazy they are, will accomplish nothing, except boost your own ego. But if that's what turns you on, carry on, all you guys obviously all belong to the same "Mutual Admiration Society" so have fun "together" boys..

[canuckamuck]

As a fat guy, pumping iron was how I lost the weight. You rarely see anyone die at the gym, but if you do it is likely someone who was well experienced and using enhancers.

[robblok]

Yes, I have been pretty naive, should have read some of the other threads and would have realised these guys have hijacked this section to sell their BS products for bodybuilders. Highly appropriate.

Guess this doesn't do them any favours, ooops!

So make your own minds up, who you believe?

Yes make your mind up who do you believe a guy with a BS story or people who workout for years and years and mind their food and get down to the lowest fat percentage possible for contests. The ones who live to look good. Or someone playing snooker and sipping beer.

Would you trust a professional or an amateur.

What does training as a professional body-builder have to do with obese people trying to lose some weight and keep it off? It is like putting a non-driver into a formula one racing car, he will be going nowhere, ever. You are so into yourselves you cant see anything at all, other than pumping iron and telling everyone else to do the same.

A fat guy pump iron without a mile of preparation, that you fail to mention, will simply kill him.

Someone suggested I wasn't very smart saying muscle turns to fat, which was merely an oversimplification of a fact, what you have suggested is just stupid, especially for someone who claims to be a professional.

I am an engineer, not a professional slimmer, body-builder, or anything related to the subject matter, but I am and always have been reasonably fit, playing the appropriate sports according to my age and level of fitness. I have worked with a lot with fat people and seen this system work almost without exception and watched their meagre self esteem rise and their weight decline and stay off. Their level of activity then increases as a direct consequence of this.

Self esteem is the key here, but your abandonment to rhetoric of telling all these fat people how great you look and how lazy they are, will accomplish nothing, except boost your own ego. But if that's what turns you on, carry on, all you guys obviously all belong to the same "Mutual Admiration Society" so have fun "together" boys..

First off im an accountant / tax advisor not a professional bodybuilder. Now please tell me where i advertise on how good i look. I never posted images of me or said anything about how great i look. I help people here and if you had read i gained around 16 kg because of the flooding and subsequent drinking. I got it all off by training and watching my food. So yes it does work.

Now i am in better shape as i ever was and i might even get the dream abs i'm working for. I am not putting anyone down who want advice or wants to workout.

I am telling fat people being fat is a choice, and in a way it is. If they choose to eat right and sacrifice some things they are usually able to loose weight. Nothing wrong with that, would be wrong if i said your a fat slob you can't improve ect ect. If you ever read my posts i always help people about working out and food.

If your an engineer, you should understand that things like turning muscle into fat or fat into muscle is just crazy. You call it over simplifying i call it stupid. When i explain tax law to my clients i make sure they understand it and i tell them not untrue version of it. Maybe you and i differ on this but i believe those over simplifications will only dumb down people and create urban myths like muscle turning into fat when you stop training. Its simply not true if you adjust your energy intake.

But by admitting this you admit that having muscles does burn fat so why not exercise. I am not talking pumping iron here. Everyone should do a sport they like, if you hate it you cant do it for long. Better do something less effective longer and keep doing it then going full out weightlifting running only to either get injured or bored and stop it. Sports if not for weight loss are also good for your body.

You can attack my ways and find holes in them.. i would thank you then because it would help me build my knowledge and such. But you feel so attacked when we point out the errors and assumptions in your statements about eating slow and your proof that the french eat slower as the english and are less fat because of it. I then tell you that correlation does not prove cause, and make a remark about the diet also being different. That is scientific giving alternate explanations for something and then you debate that. You don't start crying like a baby that someone does not believe you and needs to take your word for absolute truth.

[tropo]

What does training as a professional body-builder have to do with obese people trying to lose some weight and keep it off? It is like putting a non-driver into a formula one racing car, he will be going nowhere, ever. You are so into yourselves you cant see anything at all, other than pumping iron and telling everyone else to do the same.

A fat guy pump iron without a mile of preparation, that you fail to mention, will simply kill him.

Someone suggested I wasn't very smart saying muscle turns to fat, which was merely an oversimplification of a fact, what you have suggested is just stupid, especially for someone who claims to be a professional.

I am an engineer, not a professional slimmer, body-builder, or anything related to the subject matter, but I am and always have been reasonably fit, playing the appropriate sports according to my age and level of fitness. I have worked with a lot with fat people and seen this system work almost without exception and watched their meagre self esteem rise and their weight decline and stay off. Their level of activity then increases as a direct consequence of this.

Self esteem is the key here, but your abandonment to rhetoric of telling all these fat people how great you look and how lazy they are, will accomplish nothing, except boost your own ego. But if that's what turns you on, carry on, all you guys obviously all belong to the same "Mutual Admiration Society" so have fun "together" boys..

You just can't quit. There are no "professional bodybuilders" here - not even close. One does not need to prepare oneself for pumping iron. You start gradually and build up. Pop your head into a gym sometime - any gym - you'll see every type of person there pumping iron - fat, skinny, old, young, male, female.

Let's get back to topic. You claim to lose fat it's not what you eat, it's how you eat. You made a big deal about speed of eating. Perhaps if I ate chocolate and icecream nice and slowly I could lose weight? Let me tell you, as a lifetime slow eater I'm capable of eating more food than a fast eater. Take me to a good buffet - the fast eater is done in 30 minutes. He ate so fast that it feels like he has a rock in his stomach. I'm still chewing away 2 hours later. If I let myself eat what I wanted - slowly - I could put on a mountain of fat pretty quickly.

We don't mind discussing this and giving reasons why we consider your concept to be flawed, but you're trying so hard to maintain your dignity that you've taken to insulting others - long time contributors to this forum.

[robblok]

Adam,

I won't go into your muscle guys who stop training go fat as its not the discussion here. I am happy to discus it in a separate thread.

I also won't let myself get baited into a flame war as this was a nice topic up until page 3 when we started to have it out.

I will point out that your science is flawed by comparing 2 different populations the French and the English with different diets and then saying it must be the speed they eat with. Just totally flawed as there are too many other variables to consider to make this statement.

Also eating when hungry is not a good strategy as many obese people have their hunger hormone ghrellin switched on all the time. This could lead to them overeating. On the flip side for normal people a small meal when hungry is better then overeating later on.

I will also point out things were we agree:

Exercise is good but should be adapted to a persons need, no argument there from me. I am not advertising my lifestyle as the only one as its a hard one. Its important to do something and if you do something you like you will keep it up longer.

That is it for me im staying out of this one, but it all comes down to one thing calorie control. In one way or an other. If you watch the documentary BBC horizon the Atkins diet there they demonstrate that because of the high proteins they eat they curb hunger and eat less calories even though its said its not a caloric restrictive diet.

There are also some other ones that are nice BBC horizon the truth about fat and why are thin people not fat. If you are really interested you can broaden your horizon there.

But one last thing.. if you want to advertise your business... pay to be a sponsor just like normal people. Don't be cheap.

[tropo]

I am not crying, just hoping this posting stays at the top, so someone who is open minded may see it and try it. Thanks for your help in that.

I would conclude by saying that I now have a little osteoarthritis which is a direct result of sports injuries and over-training in my younger days, This is something else to consider going down the gym route, especially if you are overweight. The 4 point eating system has no side effects at all, though obesity certainly does.

My daily swim is perfect training for fat people in a hot country...anyone want a pool built?

Jumping to conclusions again. How can you say your arthritis is related to your sports training when you were younger? That's just a theory. Just as many non-sports people get osteoarthritis. It's probably more related to what you eat and genetics.

The problem with swimming is that it doesn't help to maintain or improve bone density. You need gravity for that. You need to add some land-based exercise.

[metisdead]

When replying to a post, do not make your reply within the quoted post even if you're using different colored font. This is in effect altering the quoted post:

30) Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording.

[AllanB]

When replying to a post, do not make your reply within the quoted post even if you're using different colored font. This is in effect altering the quoted post:

30) Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording.

Okay, didn't see your post until after I sent mine.

[AllanB]

Jumping to conclusions again. How can you say your arthritis is related to your sports training when you were younger? That's just a theory. Just as many non-sports people get osteoarthritis. It's probably more related to what you eat and genetics. Because that is what my doctor told me, it makes sense since my osteoarthritis is in the knee I injured many times. So a logical conclusion to draw.

The problem with swimming is that it doesn't help to maintain or improve bone density. You need gravity for that. You need to add some land-based exercise. I walk as well, including around the snooker table 4 hours a week. I walk and run in the pool too, building muscle without shock loading joints. Most doctors recommend water-sports for obese people too and there is another more fundamental reason to encourage fat people to swim.. They usually can, their body fat gives them better buoyancy, so the all important self esteem is increased and the cooling effect of the water means they can exercises for much longer. But understand I am not advocating they live in the swimming, merely initially use it as their main form of physical activity, start this lifestyle change and break the cycle of binging, gorging, boozing and being a couch potato. Someone else said that if you make it easy, or fun people will keep it up and that is the key.

I come back to this black and white problem you guys seem to have. You read a couple of articles, add 2 and 2 and think that is the answer, the only answer...if the body was as simple as that, we could all live forever.

[robblok]

Allan,

Nothing is black or white or simple else much cleverer people then us would have solved the obesity problem. Right now there are so many schools of thought and conflicting information its hard to know what is right.

I do know that reducing calories works most (if not all) food programs plans diets ect work that way. Even your eat slow so you feel full faster works that way. The BBC documentaries i named before are also real nice to see. Some people are genetically gifted and lucky others are not. I am not one of the lucky ones i need to do a lot more then your average person to get where i want.

I am always looking into new research and old research to get a clearer picture. The only thing i just go into is your jumping to conclusions or seeing connections where there are other explanations too. It might be an indication.. but might not be also.

As for your water and self esteem, might work that way might also not work that way as they have to expose their considerable figure to the world. Pro's and con's anyway it is true that doctors advise water exercise for obese persons because of the stress on the joints at their weight.

But once your in better shape there should be some land exercise to keep your bones strong. You seem to have that covered. Yes the fun and easy thing of exercise is good to keep it up. I think that way i know when im going crazy on cardio i give up after a while. I prefer to keep it moderate its easier to do that way.

[tropo]

Jumping to conclusions again. How can you say your arthritis is related to your sports training when you were younger? That's just a theory. Just as many non-sports people get osteoarthritis. It's probably more related to what you eat and genetics. Because that is what my doctor told me, it makes sense since my osteoarthritis is in the knee I injured many times. So a logical conclusion to draw.

The problem with swimming is that it doesn't help to maintain or improve bone density. You need gravity for that. You need to add some land-based exercise. I walk as well, including around the snooker table 4 hours a week. I walk and run in the pool too, building muscle without shock loading joints. Most doctors recommend water-sports for obese people too and there is another more fundamental reason to encourage fat people to swim.. They usually can, their body fat gives them better buoyancy, so the all important self esteem is increased and the cooling effect of the water means they can exercises for much longer. But understand I am not advocating they live in the swimming, merely initially use it as their main form of physical activity, start this lifestyle change and break the cycle of binging, gorging, boozing and being a couch potato. Someone else said that if you make it easy, or fun people will keep it up and that is the key.

I come back to this black and white problem you guys seem to have. You read a couple of articles, add 2 and 2 and think that is the answer, the only answer...if the body was as simple as that, we could all live forever.

You add some good info, and then come back with the insults again....

I think you're the one with the ideas in "black and white". We don't claim the answers are simple and obvious, however you seem to do that...

Swimming - I agree it's a great exercise, but must be combined with some weight bearing exercise - walking is perfect for overweight people.

Osteoarthritis: "because a doctor told you". Careful what these doctors tell you - they tell you what they've been trained to tell you and aren't allowed to think outside the box.

I also have osteoarthritis, in both knees. One knee was injured several times in motorcycle accidents, the other knee wasn't yet I have it in both knees and the uninjured knee is a bit worse.

Doctor told me to not bend the knee too far. I bend them far and as a result of doing what doctors told me not to do my knees have improved to the point of no pain these days. Full squats. Yikes! ... anyone with arthritis would tell you - the more I do them the better the knees get. This is combined with a good healthy diet and providing essential nutrients known to assist bone health.

[AllanB]

Jumping to conclusions again. How can you say your arthritis is related to your sports training when you were younger? That's just a theory. Just as many non-sports people get osteoarthritis. It's probably more related to what you eat and genetics. Because that is what my doctor told me, it makes sense since my osteoarthritis is in the knee I injured many times. So a logical conclusion to draw.

The problem with swimming is that it doesn't help to maintain or improve bone density. You need gravity for that. You need to add some land-based exercise. I walk as well, including around the snooker table 4 hours a week. I walk and run in the pool too, building muscle without shock loading joints. Most doctors recommend water-sports for obese people too and there is another more fundamental reason to encourage fat people to swim.. They usually can, their body fat gives them better buoyancy, so the all important self esteem is increased and the cooling effect of the water means they can exercises for much longer. But understand I am not advocating they live in the swimming, merely initially use it as their main form of physical activity, start this lifestyle change and break the cycle of binging, gorging, boozing and being a couch potato. Someone else said that if you make it easy, or fun people will keep it up and that is the key.

I come back to this black and white problem you guys seem to have. You read a couple of articles, add 2 and 2 and think that is the answer, the only answer...if the body was as simple as that, we could all live forever.

You add some good info, and then come back with the insults again....

I think you're the one with the ideas in "black and white". We don't claim the answers are simple and obvious, however you seem to do that...

Swimming - I agree it's a great exercise, but must be combined with some weight bearing exercise - walking is perfect for overweight people.

Osteoarthritis: "because a doctor told you". Careful what these doctors tell you - they tell you what they've been trained to tell you and aren't allowed to think outside the box.

I also have osteoarthritis, in both knees. One knee was injured several times in motorcycle accidents, the other knee wasn't yet I have it in both knees and the uninjured knee is a bit worse.

Doctor told me to not bend the knee too far. I bend them far and as a result of doing what doctors told me not to do my knees have improved to the point of no pain these days. Full squats. Yikes! ... anyone with arthritis would tell you - the more I do them the better the knees get. This is combined with a good healthy diet and providing essential nutrients known to assist bone health.

I hope I do bring some fresh thought to this forum, as it seems to heading down one very narrow track and that is never good, if my comments are a little insulting it is purely retaliatory and hopefully aimed at the original aggressors.

When I said the doctor told me about the origins of my osteoarthritis, I did add that it made sense since it was largely confined to an area previously injured on a numerous occasions. You should have gathered by now that I don't trust anyone when it comes to information, or perhaps "trust but verify" is a better description of my thinking.

I have been taking a digestive enzyme supplement for my arthritis and it seems to work for me, last December I could walk for only 5 minutes, or less before the pain started and I stopped, now I can walk for hours with only a slight twinge. It is a not a pain killer or anti-inflammatory, as when I stop taking it, I am still fine. The reason I started is that a friend of my wife, who hadn't walked for 3 years was now walking as a result, so a testimonial from a complete neutral. But that is another story for another forum.

I am trying to build the muscles in my knees that have been lost during previous periods of semi-recumbency, without loading my knee joints and swimming seems to be doing that. I am not a very good walker in terms of technique, partially due to a slight leg deformity, discovered during my martial arts days. This is why I am a great believer in tailored exercise, one size absolutely doesn't fit all.

Squats are not the answer for everyone, they do build muscle rapidly, but cause a lot of stress on a damaged joint, where there is little or no cartilage protection. They are not recommended for Obese people either, as full squats place excessive stress on joints unprotected by muscle.

I watched a TV programme where a US army guy was bullying a lot fat celebrities into some very strenuous exercise, it made good TV but not only was it dangerous, but not successful in the long term. This is where there a conflict of interest gave a totally false impression, as it was quite clear that the losses achieved under the gaze of the camera, were never going to continue.

I am still a great believer that psychology is the key, build self esteem and you have one half the battle. Obese people spend 95-99% of their time thinking they are lost cause, so by doing something that is very simple, requiring no effort and seeing some results, will have a huge positive psychological effect.

I guess the current eating disorders go back 2 or 3 generations, I was told by my mother to eat up everything on my plate as there are starving children in the world. We didn't have huge amounts of food around, so we never got fat, but things have changed dramatically and the 4 point eating technique plan goes some way to redressing the balance. My mother carried a weeks shopping home in two bags, now you see people with 3 huge trolley loads, requiring a pickup truck, all as a result of some very clever marketing psychology.

This is why the exercise part of the equation is of secondary importance, first tackle the eating disorders and the training becomes more attractive.

[robblok]

I have always believed diet is more important then weight loss. I still do but combine them and the result is even better. But there is more to exercise as weight loss. Its just good for the body. But if we are talking fat loss you are right.

Alan, its also not wrong to bring other idea's here but as i stated before there are so many schools of thinking so i try to find out if they can really substantiated. I real a lot of books and watch documentaries about eating and exercise. They are all conflicting and at times what is good for one is bad for an other.

About the exercise, you should always do something that suits you. Else in the long run your not going to keep it up. Just like you said about the US army guy bullying people into it. It will help short run and the results are better short run. But long term its too much to keep up and people fall back in their old habits. Its better to gradually built your sports, no matter if its going to the gym or swimming. If you start out swimming everyday for 2 hours (just doing laps) you go crazy fast and stop. Same with the gym. I workout around 7 days a week 4 days with weights and 3 days on a rowing machine. But i never started out like that.

You might not always like my imput but like others here i am also trying to loose fat. I am well past the goals of others but i am still trying to loose it. So im no different from others. I am a bit fanatical on myself, count my calories and all. I am of those guys who really needs to put an effort in it to get results. 95 kg muscular working out like crazy eating 2000-2200 cals and not loosing half a kg a week. So i also don't go the easy way.

But i have learned its all in your own mind, you are the one putting the food in your mouth. Changes come from within and it takes willpower. Also in all the documentaries i seen its harder for some people as for others because of the hormones that drive their hunger. I am never satisfied after a meal (eating slow and good foods) but i decide not to eat more. Hard.. yes but a choice. The dr's also state its a choice to loose weight.. but the fight is harder for some as for others because of those hormones.

[AllanB]

I remember something else I saw on TV relating to eating and psychology. They split a cinema queue into two groups, gave one group a large bucket of popcorn each and the other a supersize. Most people in both groups had a little popcorn left, but the ones with the supersize buckets had eaten 60% more than the other group.

Living in France and Denmark, I noticed a similar situation and I never felt bloated when I lived there. In Denmark, I would put a little on my plate, then a little more and then stop, leaving a lot of food in the centre of the table for the following meal. In France an evening meal would often last hours. First a few garlic mushrooms, then another small course and another and so on, maybe I would miss a course or two, drink some wine and again never be bloated.

I would then come back to England to see my parents and the first thing my mum would do is put a huge plateful of food in front of me and watch me "enjoy" the lot. Completely bloated I would spend the afternoon sitting down waiting for my stomach to settle, my mother proud that I enjoyed the meal.

This is the contrast I saw, it was many years ago and things have changed for some, the French say as a result of fast food. Many older people say they have never seen so many fat people and blame the Americans........

[tropo]

I hope I do bring some fresh thought to this forum, as it seems to heading down one very narrow track and that is never good, if my comments are a little insulting it is purely retaliatory and hopefully aimed at the original aggressors.

..............

This is why the exercise part of the equation is of secondary importance, first tackle the eating disorders and the training becomes more attractive.

Let's broaden that track a little. There's a huge spectrum covered by "fat" or "overweight" or "obese". There are levels of "fat" and that of course should be taken into consideration....

Many in these categories would have absolutely no trouble exercising and if so, they should. Many in these categories are already active.

Let's not give too many people an excuse not to exercise.

[tropo]

I have always believed diet is more important then weight loss. I still do but combine them and the result is even better. But there is more to exercise as weight loss. Its just good for the body. But if we are talking fat loss you are right.

Diet is not more important than exercise if permanent weight loss is your goal.

I wonder if the OP has managed to keep his 35kg off - we haven't heard from him in a long while. Dropping a huge amount of weight (35kg) in 6 months doesn't cure the underlying problem - i.e. the reason why he got fat in the first place.

[robblok]

I have always believed diet is more important then weight loss. I still do but combine them and the result is even better. But there is more to exercise as weight loss. Its just good for the body. But if we are talking fat loss you are right.

Diet is not more important than exercise if permanent weight loss is your goal.

I wonder if the OP has managed to keep his 35kg off - we haven't heard from him in a long while. Dropping a huge amount of weight (35kg) in 6 months doesn't cure the underlying problem - i.e. the reason why he got fat in the first place.

Not going there.. you might be right but for loosing the weight diet is more important. But you might be right for keeping it off the studies you posted before do point that direction.

[robblok]

I remember something else I saw on TV relating to eating and psychology. They split a cinema queue into two groups, gave one group a large bucket of popcorn each and the other a supersize. Most people in both groups had a little popcorn left, but the ones with the supersize buckets had eaten 60% more than the other group.

Living in France and Denmark, I noticed a similar situation and I never felt bloated when I lived there. In Denmark, I would put a little on my plate, then a little more and then stop, leaving a lot of food in the centre of the table for the following meal. In France an evening meal would often last hours. First a few garlic mushrooms, then another small course and another and so on, maybe I would miss a course or two, drink some wine and again never be bloated.

I would then come back to England to see my parents and the first thing my mum would do is put a huge plateful of food in front of me and watch me "enjoy" the lot. Completely bloated I would spend the afternoon sitting down waiting for my stomach to settle, my mother proud that I enjoyed the meal.

This is the contrast I saw, it was many years ago and things have changed for some, the French say as a result of fast food. Many older people say they have never seen so many fat people and blame the Americans........

Sure if you eat slow and take hours for a diner you wont feel bloated. I have eaten a fair share of times in France too. Normally i would not have the time for meals like that.

[tropo]

Sure if you eat slow and take hours for a diner you wont feel bloated. I have eaten a fair share of times in France too. Normally i would not have the time for meals like that.

If you eat that slowly you can eat a lot more. That's my technique if I take the liberty of eating at a nice buffet.

I think there's too much talk here about eating slowly. The best way is the way I know you do it too - you prepare exactly what you are going to eat. End of story. That's all you get to eat. Eat it as fast or as slow as you like - won't make any difference.

If fat people don't eat this way they should start. Dedication is the key to success.

[AllanB]

Let's not give too many people an excuse not to exercise....what are you their father Tropo?

If you eat that slowly you can eat a lot more. That is rarely found to be the case and the damage is done by overeating, as a direct result fast eating That's my technique if I take the liberty of eating at a nice buffet. Buffets are usually "eat as much as you can", with no speed restriction,,you have paid your money and want to get your money's worth, not the same thing at all.

I think there's too much talk here about eating slowly. The best way is the way I know you do it too - you prepare exactly what you are going to eat. End of story. That's all you get to eat. Eat it as fast or as slow as you like - won't make any difference.

It is virtually impossible to prepare the exact amount of food for one person, let alone 3 or 4, there is always food left over.

If fat people don't eat this way they should start. Dedication is the key to success.

I think you have a really bad attitude and show a total lack of tolerance to other people, who don't do as you say. You need a little empathy with people who, by their very nature lack discipline when it comes to eating and exercise. You think bullying works, perhaps that is why you do you body building, but it don't cut any ice with me and it won't be of any help to the genuine people visiting this forum.

If you think there is too much talk about eating slowly, go visit another forum chum.

It is a major side effect of taking steroids... aggression and if you don't think you are being aggressive look back at all your postings..

[robblok]

It is a major side effect of taking steroids... aggression and if you don't think you are being aggressive look back at all your postings..

Its a major side effect of ignorance, believing what you hear about steroids from the government. Steroids don't even hold a candle to the aggression from alcohol. Roid rage has never been really proven its one of those myths the government likes to promote. I am not pro steroids or against them I just like real information. Just like other substances are demonized by the government like weed. If you really want a good documentary about steroids look on youtube for bigger faster stronger. Gives an unbiased view on them. From medical experts and users and the government. I doubt you will take the time to do so as its a full hour or so. Its a real eye opener.

Also as far as i know tropo does not use them.

[robblok]

Adam if you prepare your own food its quite doable to prepare enough to eat without leftovers. I do it each and every day. Different story if you go out for diner somewhere or lunch. Just like making the right choices.

But Tropo is right.. it just takes more effort to do. You are promoting a way without effort that may work, but the way with effort certainly works. Calorie control always works.

[robblok]

Just an example:

For breakfast you can find out something you like and is healthy and eat it almost every day or find a few things find out how much caloreis and other things are in it. So easy and you know then how much you eat.

Luch, i used to prepare my lunch at home to take to work. Again quite easy to find some stuff you like and after learning a bit about food and food products you know what you eat.

Diner is the same thing.. bit different if you cook for more as one.

There are great iphone / ipad apps that help with calculating your calories. I used to use calorie count but after a while i got a pretty good idea what was what and i just made the right portions and right foods.

This of course is a bit more work then eating slower but also more effective. But basically its all about how much you want to loose weight and what your willing to do. So its an attitude / willpower thing.