To Invest A Condo In Pattaya. Will It Be A Good Investment?

[IamNotaNumber]

You don't have to be a ' know-it-all or" blowhard ' to realise a big part of the Pattaya condo market has been nothing more than a gigantic Ponzi scheme.

Indeed. And much of the rest of it has been fuelled by money-laundering (be it Thai money or Russian money or expat Brit money from the Costas or indeed from myriad other places). Anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a dream world.

Take away those two props and there doesn't seem to be much holding Pattaya real estate up, outside of a "high" rental season that lasts barely a couple of months.

[toenail]

According to PARA (Pattaya Area Realtors Association: "WE predict a continuous growth in demand of foreigners purchasing condos in the Chonburi area. This growth in demand will increase the value of the property..." (by the way I made this up -sarcasim on how anyone can make up an association)

Edited October 17, 2012 by toenail

[Rimkok]

I am planning to retire in Thailand within 10 years time.

That's the reason I would like to buy the property.

Put your money in gold and silver for 10 years first.

[JSixpack]

According to PARA (Pattaya Area Realtors Association: "WE predict a continuous growth in demand of foreigners purchasing condos in the Chonburi area. This growth in demand will increase the value of the property..." (by the way I made this up -sarcasim on how anyone can make up an association)

Both the PAICRRA (Pattaya Area Impecunious Cheap Room Renters Association) and the BCEDA (British Council Estate Dreamers Association) strongly support your sarcasm!

[Ohio]

I just checked a realtors site that still has the same condos for sale at the same price when we looked 2 years ago but now there are more for sale in the same block.

The only Real Estate BOOM in Pattatya seems to be on Soi Dreamland just near the corner of Sucker Street

[JSixpack]

I just checked a realtors site that still has the same condos for sale at the same price when we looked 2 years ago but now there are more for sale in the same block.

The only Real Estate BOOM in Pattatya seems to be on Soi Dreamland just near the corner of Sucker Street

Means nothing. Even before there was internet (during the Golden Age our old farts here love to reminisce about, when everything was wonderful and there was no imagined glut) realtors stuck photos and descriptions on the outsides of their offices (they still do) and left them up for many years, fading in the sun, long after the properties must have been sold.

Nobody on this thread has any real idea how many condos have been or are being sold in PTY. It's all just hot air.

[Tolley]

I dont think there is anywhere here where you can find the history of sales and what prices were paid for real estate which also makes buying very tricky here.

Some accurate historical data would make things a bit clearer for buyers.

[JSixpack]

I just checked a realtors site that still has the same condos for sale at the same price when we looked 2 years ago but now there are more for sale in the same block.

The only Real Estate BOOM in Pattatya seems to be on Soi Dreamland just near the corner of Sucker Street

Means nothing. Even before there was internet (during the Golden Age our old farts here love to reminisce about, when everything was wonderful and there was no imagined glut) realtors stuck photos and descriptions on the outsides of their offices (they still do) and left them up for many years, fading in the sun, long after the properties must have been sold.

Nobody on this thread has any real idea how many condos have been or are being sold in PTY. It's all just hot air.

A specialty of yours I see .

Let's see your stats, pal. You've gone around to all the condo buildings, talked to the offices, saw their lists and projected sales and profits and YOU'VE got the hard numbers that prove your points. Great. Put up or shut up.

Actually all you've got, like all the posters here, is this: you walked home a few late nights from a bar and didn't see many lights on a condo building or two. Therefore all the units there and indeed throughout Pattaya are unsold and no one's living in any of the condos.

We might call this the "monger's lights on" rule. It's been repeated countless times over the years. And it's totally meaningless. Older high-rise building near me, for example, has been sold out for many years.I know, because I've visited the office. On a typical night, esp in the low season, esp. during a non-Thai holiday, you might see 10 or fewer lights on out of, oh, 300 units. Duh. During high season you might normally see 50. On New Year's eve, maybe100.

Meanwhile, amid all the continual Chicken Little sky-is-falling cries, many a farang condo owner has long stopped paying rent (ah!) and is enjoying living or vacationing in his own condo in Pattaya, perhaps w/ a fine sea view, and--oh, how annoying--will just continue enjoying doing so despite all the laughable predictions here of the coming Apocalypse and the Final Days--which the owner and his lady will toast from his balcony if it indeed ever arrives. Deal with it, renters.

Edited October 20, 2012 by JSixpack

[IamNotaNumber]

Some accurate historical data would make things a bit clearer for buyers.

I think "would put the cat amongst the pigeons" is nearer the mark.

[IamNotaNumber]

We might call this the "monger's lights on" rule. It's been repeated countless times over the years. And it's totally meaningless. Older high-rise building near me, for example, has been sold out for many years.I know, because I've visited the office. On a typical night, esp in the low season, esp. during a non-Thai holiday, you might see 10 or fewer lights on out of, oh, 300 units. Duh. During high season you might normally see 50. On New Year's eve, maybe100.

Yeah, right. And just opposite the entrance to my building there are two of the largest buildings in the Pattaya area, both (fairly) new and both with at least 30% unsold units. This is 30% unsold as confirmed by the constructor's office, not based on any late-night observations.

There are lots of condo units in Pattaya that are owned by people (Thai and farang) who, for whatever reason, have no need to use the units, or rent them out, or sell them to use the money elsewhere. They just hang onto them, but they dont form any part of the rental or sale market.

If they suddenly decided that they needed to sell (perhaps as a result of the introduction of serious property taxes) then there would be a huge new oversupply of units for sale to add to the already enormous pile of units looking for a buyer.

Yes. To buy a condo at the right price and live in it for 20 years is fine. But at current asking prices this is unlikely to happen. So why buy when you can rent the same place for well under 5% of the likely selling price (maybe even under 4%) and let your landlord pay all the bills and have all the hassle of owning property in what is basically an unregulated country where foreigners dont even have right of abode?

[JSixpack]

Yeah, right. And just opposite the entrance to my building there are two of the largest buildings in the Pattaya area, both (fairly) new and both with at least 30% unsold units. This is 30% unsold as confirmed by the constructor's office, not based on any late-night observations.

I'd say that building has been profitable enough for its developers.(Some time ago, a TV member quite knowledgeable about the actual financing explained all this.) That's why so many developments are still under construction. Another oft-repeated fallacy here is this: a building must be 100% percent sold out before it can be regarded as successful. It's the same silly little troll mentality that says, "Big C is going bankrupt unless it is packed with customers at all times" even though Big C's share price rose 77% last year on steadily rising profits for the last 5 years.

Developers don't have to sell all that many to break even or become profitable, and they have a long time horizon. Denying this fact is just an excuse for portentous self-important prophecies by those who have little understanding of finance, business, and economics. Those subjects tend not to be taught in the nanny states.

There are lots of condo units in Pattaya that are owned by people (Thai and farang) who, for whatever reason, have no need to use the units, or rent them out, or sell them to use the money elsewhere. They just hang onto them, but they dont form any part of the rental or sale market.

Very true. Excellent!

If they suddenly decided that they needed to sell (perhaps as a result of the introduction of serious property taxes) then there would be a huge new oversupply of units for sale to add to the already enormous pile of units looking for a buyer.

Or, maybe not. It depends on the unit, the building, the location, and the market at THAT time. There's not a simple little Mother Goose rule here that applies everywhere at all times, you see.

But anyway, exactly the same thing can happen at any time with any asset you own. Bank account? Decimated by inflation, losing at least 2% per year. Gold? You bought on on the high of 14/11/2011 but need to sell at the low on 16/05/2012. Your house in Merced, CA you bought in 2006--now down 46% in value, unmarketable. Your car--junk after 10 years. Your health--was great but now you need a stent. Your motorbike: a drunk hit you and now you walk with a limp. That apartment you rented--burned up in a fire along w/ all your possessions. That lady--kicked you out of the house you bought in her name, looted your bank accounts.

Yeah, you just never know. I feel sorry for our resident Chicken Littles. Don't dare buy a condo--maybe can't profit from it. Can't drive car--cars have accidents. Can't invest in shares--shares might go down or a company fail. Can't put their money in a bank--bank might fail. Can't use a credit card--might get cloned. Can't ride in a plane--planes crash sometimes. Can't have sex--might get AIDS. Can't even be comfortable renting--building might burn down.

How miserable, really.

Home owners in the USA, Britain, and Europe discovered how unreliable housing really is as investment already. Best to consider housing as consumption more than investment. Speculation? Forget it. Meanwhile, you gotta pay to park your ass somewhere, and if you're renting all you might get back is your deposit.

Yes. To buy a condo at the right price and live in it for 20 years is fine. But at current asking prices this is unlikely to happen.

Not for those who enjoy having their own place and don't enjoy paying rent they'll never see again.

Cheers!

Edited October 20, 2012 by JSixpack

[PattayaPhom]

Some accurate historical data would make things a bit clearer for buyers.

I think "would put the cat amongst the pigeons" is nearer the mark.

As you suggest that any raise in property taxes could cause many to sell. may I assume that if their was a cut in taxes/incentives this would therefor cause a rush in property purchases?

[Asiantravel]

Or, maybe not. It depends on the unit, the building, the location, and the market at THAT time. There's not a simple little Mother Goose rule here that applies everywhere at all times, you see.

But anyway, exactly the same thing can happen at any time with any asset you own. Bank account? Decimated by inflation, losing at least 2% per year. Gold? You bought on on the high of 14/11/2011 but need to sell at the low on 16/05/2012. Your house in Merced, CA you bought in 2006--now down 46% in value, unmarketable. Your car--junk after 10 years. Your health--was great but now you need a stent. Your motorbike: a drunk hit you and now you walk with a limp. That apartment you rented--burned up in a fire along w/ all your possessions. That lady--kicked you out of the house you bought in her name, looted your bank accounts.

Yeah, you just never know. I feel sorry for our resident Chicken Littles. Don't dare buy a condo--maybe can't profit from it. Can't drive car--cars have accidents. Can't invest in shares--shares might go down or a company fail. Can't put their money in a bank--bank might fail. Can't use a credit card--might get cloned. Can't ride in a plane--planes crash sometimes. Can't have sex--might get AIDS. Can't even be comfortable renting--building might burn down.

How miserable, really.

Why do you ridicule people if they decide to rent as opposed to purchasing a property here if they have decided to use their money in other ways ? May be they decided it would be better for them to use the money to purchase property in other real estate markets around the world and then use the rental income from those properties to pay for their rent here in Pattaya. What on earth is wrong with that strategy?

In fact there are many beachside real estate markets around the world ( without any restrictions about foreigners only allowed 49% of a building )where there has been a genuine and transparent price correction and where you could safely say based on historic prices that you would be picking up a real bargain today .

What is so special about Pattaya condominium prices that they uniquely seem to defy the laws of economics and

gravity ?

You see I have often wondered why is it that the Pattaya real estate market has never experienced a genuine price correction? I mean in no other real estate market on the planet have prices just gone up and up and up and people need to ask this question even more now when the world itself is going through an enormous correction .

Ask any decent economist today and they will tell you that the biggest danger to the world is deflation . Four rounds of quantitative easing in America and eight rounds of quantitative easing in Japan have not worked so there is definitely no incentive for anyone to pay through the nose for anything which they would be doing if they bought into the Pattaya real estate right now.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Asiantravel

[IamNotaNumber]

I feel sorry for our resident Chicken Littles. Don't dare buy a condo--maybe can't profit from it. Can't drive car--cars have accidents. Can't invest in shares--shares might go down or a company fail. Can't put their money in a bank--bank might fail. Can't use a credit card--might get cloned. Can't ride in a plane--planes crash sometimes. Can't have sex--might get AIDS. Can't even be comfortable renting--building might burn down.

How miserable, really.

Home owners in the USA, Britain, and Europe discovered how unreliable housing really is as investment already. Best to consider housing as consumption more than investment. Speculation? Forget it. Meanwhile, you gotta pay to park your ass somewhere, and if you're renting all you might get back is your deposit.

My logic (and it is logic rather than bizarre fantasy) is that I earn more in interest on the sum that I would need to buy my condo than I pay in rent. And this is without even taking into account the common fees which are paid by my landlord, and any other building expenses that may become due from time to time (and they do).

It is also without taking account of the cost of purchase/sale, which must be very near 10% if one includes agent's fees and transfer taxes.

Add to that the fact that as a tenant I can just walk away when my building becomes a ghetto for drunken Russians (many already are), or has a karoake bar open in the car park.

And then add the fact that if I bought today, it would take me nearly 25 years to pay the asking price of my condo at the amount I pay in rent. I surely wont be living in that unit in 25 years' time, if indeed I'm even still alive in 25 years' time, and so I will also have saved the hassle and expense of trying to sell it on.

And if I were to die before I leave my rented condo, my inheritors would have an easy and cheap task of cancelling my tenancy and selling my possessions, and they wouldn't have to try and put a condo up for sale, leaving themselves open to the worst sort of scams that are practised by Pattaya real estate agents on a regular if not daily basis.

All in all, the choice for me is clear. Buying at today's prices would be insanity.

[IamNotaNumber]

As you suggest that any raise in property taxes could cause many to sell. may I assume that if their was a cut in taxes/incentives this would therefor cause a rush in property purchases?

It might, if there were any property ownership taxes here. But as there are none they can only increase.

[craigt3365]

OK guys. Let's stop with the personal attacks or we'll just close this thread.

Let's face it. Some prefer to rent, others prefer to buy. Some have made a killing in the real estate market, others have been killed. Some consider their homes an investment, others consider their homes just that...a home.

Peace!

[Awohalitsiktoli]

As you suggest that any raise in property taxes could cause many to sell. may I assume that if their was a cut in taxes/incentives this would therefor cause a rush in property purchases?

It might, if there were any property ownership taxes here. But as there are none they can only increase.

Interesting thread w/ different viewpoints. Clearly, you have a few people who are heavily invested in real estate who cannot accept the views of others and can only denegrate them with comments about "fear," and "chicken littles," etc. There can only be one reason they get so emotional about views that counter their own: they are involved in real estate. I did not have anything to do w/ the money that they have lost. But I want to address the point just made about taxes. One the one hand, some people who are invested in real estate will claim that most units are not vacant. What they fail to add is that large segments of these condos were purchased by a group of investors/speculators who do not live in them but are only waiting for some sucker to come along and pay 10 times what they are worth. That gives the illusion that demand from individual buyers is high. If the government started implementing a property ownership tax, there would be less incentive to buy in bulk and sit on non-productive units. That might also lead to a adjustment in price, which would no doubt be downward. And it might curb the rampant speculation that is going on. No, I am not afraid or "chicken little." I have investments elsewhere. I simply see this market--the Pattaya-Jomtien market--as setting itself up for a major fall. Prices are way over the top for the new units and the old units look like concrete coffins (maybe that is an upgrade for Russians). Others have a different view.

[DiNiro]

NEVER INVEST IN THAILAND UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO WALK AWAY FROM YOUR INVESTMENT!

Every night, around 3AM, 4AM, 5AM, 6AM...myself and my neighbors call Pattaya City Hall about the illegal Karaoke Bar in Jomtien, Theprasit Soi 7.

After a year of repeated phone calls to the Pattaya City Complaint Line #1337, about the ALL NIGHT KARAOKE!, nothing has been done.

In fact, the City Hall Complaint line staff is sick of hearing the complaints and are very rude when we call.

"nothing we can do".....

Now, in our neighborhood, I see several large developments taking off, Zen, Maldives, Laguna, The Park...

The customers purchasing units have no idea that a dangerous policeman owns a nearby bar that will keep them awake ALL NIGHT.

If you are considering buying real estate in this area you are making a mistake.

Posted at 5:30AM

[gerry53]

NEVER INVEST IN THAILAND UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO WALK AWAY FROM YOUR INVESTMENT!

Every night, around 3AM, 4AM, 5AM, 6AM...myself and my neighbors call Pattaya City Hall about the illegal Karaoke Bar in Jomtien, Theprasit Soi 7.

After a year of repeated phone calls to the Pattaya City Complaint Line #1337, about the ALL NIGHT KARAOKE!, nothing has been done.

In fact, the City Hall Complaint line staff is sick of hearing the complaints and are very rude when we call.

"nothing we can do".....

Now, in our neighborhood, I see several large developments taking off, Zen, Maldives, Laguna, The Park...

The customers purchasing units have no idea that a dangerous policeman owns a nearby bar that will keep them awake ALL NIGHT.

If you are considering buying real estate in this area you are making a mistake.

Posted at 5:30AM

First sorry for you predictament, it sounds like a nightmare. After a lifetime of work and stress the last thing a retired person needs is your type of problem in your own home, we supposedly come here to chill out, relax (that includes a decent sleep) and enjoy life. I have had a few similar noise issues and it strengthened my decision to only rent here so I have the flexibility to move when the situation becomes unbearable. If city hall and the police cannot control the jet ski scam, the transportation mafia, corruption etc an owner has little chance of getting "justice" for a simple noise issue.

[JSixpack]

an owner has little chance of getting "justice" for a simple noise issue.

I've known a case where homeowners did shutdown a karaoke bar by a petition and persistence.

Anyway, a buyer should be aware of zoning laws and prepared to deal with issues that could arise. It's possible to buy in locations where there's no chance of a karaoke bar opening across the street, such as in Northpoint. But Thailand is a noisy country in general. I carry earplugs wherever I go. Sometimes where I live a nearby hotel will hold an outdoor party at night. Closing the windows and turning on the air-con and the TV or music is usually sufficient to handle that, but I don't mind putting in the earplugs if necessary.

Many owners do soundproof their condos. Just double-glazed windows will go far to mitigate the problem.

[gerry53]

an owner has little chance of getting "justice" for a simple noise issue.

I've known a case where homeowners did shutdown a karaoke bar by a petition and persistence.

Anyway, a buyer should be aware of zoning laws and prepared to deal with issues that could arise. It's possible to buy in locations where there's no chance of a karaoke bar opening across the street, such as in Northpoint. But Thailand is a noisy country in general. I carry earplugs wherever I go. Sometimes where I live a nearby hotel will hold an outdoor party at night. Closing the windows and turning on the air-con and the TV or music is usually sufficient to handle that, but I don't mind putting in the earplugs if necessary.

Many owners do soundproof their condos. Just double-glazed windows will go far to mitigate the problem.

I'll be dam_ed if I will wear earplugs to accommadate an illegal Karaoke Bar blasting music, I would rather move if as stated by DaNiro city hall takes no action for 1 year after repeated, multiple person requests.

Knowing someone in a position of power or money makes many problems dissappear. Your solutions are simplistic - go after the root cause or move out - this is Thailand not farang central.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Rimmer
Flame

[thenervoussurgeon]

There is a lovely condo block on 2nd rd just next to central ,its been up years now and i love looking at all the empty units from the car park ,that gives you an idea of how fast units sell .

[KonKorat]

Hi,just wandering if anyone knows the law on owing a condo in Thailand,i have read anyone farang can buy a condo as long as it has 51% thai ownership,this i know already.what is confusing me is can you buy a condo while visiting on a tourist visa? i have read many threads online and most people say you can,then i read from some legal firm in Thailand that you cannot buy a condo or a car with a tourist visa,it says you have to be at least on a non-immigrant visa.how are these people buying condos on tourist visa when this is illegal? thanks

[BlackPuddingBertha]

You dont need any sort of visa to buy a condo here.

[USNret]

I am planning to retire in Thailand within 10 years time.

That's the reason I would like to buy the property.

How is it you have chosen to retire in Pattaya, a place you have never visited? I would be interested in hearing your line of thinking on this.

If you are looking at 10 years time, you will double your money if you earn just 7% annually which should be easy to do. In the meantime, the baht will likely be less strong sometime during that 10 years not to mention Pattaya prices will take a dip somewhere in that timeframe. Just sit tight & wait for a good buying opportunity. Once you purchase a condo in Pattaya, you have given up your flexibility to make other choices.

[manxninja]

only an idiot would buy a condo in the current climate.

Thai baht stay strong . Doubt it very much.

[jbrain]

only an idiot would buy a condo in the current climate.

Thai baht stay strong . Doubt it very much.

At the moment everybody wants his money out of Europe, which is of course favorable for the strenght of the Baht.

[Basil B]

only an idiot would buy a condo in the current climate.

Thai baht stay strong . Doubt it very much.

At the moment everybody wants his money out of Europe, which is of course favorable for the strenght of the Baht.

Do not understand you, at the moment the the Thai bart is at a high, so it will cost even more euros to buy, so you buy and then which way do you think it going to go?

you may be lucky and the Euro continues to sink, or it could recover, do you have a crystal ball?

Seven years ago I bought a condo at 70THB/1GBP, I sold it last December for not much more than I bought it, saving grace was that when the cash was transfered back to Good Old Blighty it was at 47THB/1GBP.

I was lucky, I had a buyer wanting to buy, but at a price well below the market value but then it was all done in a week or so, fortunately the value of the condo had gone up in 7 years, I bought second hand into a well run condominium and can count myself as being one of the lucky ones who made a substantial profit.

From what I have heard only a fool would buy "off plan" but Pattaya seems to be full of them.

[bigwilly]

As most new build condo's here in Pattaya pay a selling broker/agent a commision fee of 8% of the sale price, ask your Property Broker from the Property fare if he will give you a 5% cashback on his cut!

BW.

[jbrain]

only an idiot would buy a condo in the current climate.

Thai baht stay strong . Doubt it very much.

At the moment everybody wants his money out of Europe, which is of course favorable for the strenght of the Baht.

Do not understand you, at the moment the the Thai bart is at a high, so it will cost even more euros to buy, so you buy and then which way do you think it going to go?

you may be lucky and the Euro continues to sink, or it could recover, do you have a crystal ball?

Seven years ago I bought a condo at 70THB/1GBP, I sold it last December for not much more than I bought it, saving grace was that when the cash was transfered back to Good Old Blighty it was at 47THB/1GBP.

I was lucky, I had a buyer wanting to buy, but at a price well below the market value but then it was all done in a week or so, fortunately the value of the condo had gone up in 7 years, I bought second hand into a well run condominium and can count myself as being one of the lucky ones who made a substantial profit.

From what I have heard only a fool would buy "off plan" but Pattaya seems to be full of them.

You read some newspapers the past few weeks? Cyprus seems to be a good subject if you want to understand my point.

What you think is the better, money exchanged to Baht at an inflated price or Euro's that at one point risk to dissapear from your account ?