(Pure) Gasoline Not To Be Sold In Thailand After January 2013

[anon210]

I have used only B5 throughout all the years it was available here for my Vigo, Strada, Ford tractor, iron buffalo, and small diesel generator. Similarly, I have used E10 for all our family motorbikes on the farm plus small Honda-engine pumps.

Ethanol in Thailand is derived from two sources: molasses and cassava. I choose bio-fuels since I am a cassava farmer. Cassava is one of the major crops farmed by mostly impoverished farmers: the switch to ethanol mixtures will certainly help a huge number of these farmers to improve their standard of living.

I have never noticed any damage to my engines through my use of B5 or E10.

Do you really believe you are going to see an improvement in the standards of farmers through the imposition of ethanol? It will only profit to the bigger farmers and those who have the most land. If you believe this charade of "improving standards of living", then obviously you have not lived long time enough in Thailand. LOL.

I always found it absurd to sacrifice valuable land to grown ethanol precursors instead of food...The example of short-sighted political decisions (which take place in the US as well).

Now, to dismiss your final point, cassava is typically grown on unfertile land that is unsuitable for most other crops. Think outside the square and you will see that there are other ways to solve the potential wrong use of productive land: the government needs only to designate areas for cassava crops, the areas that have always grown cassava for decades.

I already grow 170 rai (68 acres) of cassava – the end of the pure-petrol supply will not cause me to grow more but will certainly improve my bottom line. For most Thais (I’m not Thai, though my wife is) farming much less land, the extra demand should allow them to escape their indebtedness and actually prosper for a change.

Since when do you think someone can trust the government's decisions in the matters of allocation of resources? Thailand being what it is i am sure this will end up being distorted and abused.

As to indebtedness... i think you live with a lot of illusions on the world. Everything will be done to keep the poor really poor.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

[Tywais]

Older News topics on this.

[Khonwan]

I have used only B5 throughout all the years it was available here for my Vigo, Strada, Ford tractor, iron buffalo, and small diesel generator. Similarly, I have used E10 for all our family motorbikes on the farm plus small Honda-engine pumps.

Ethanol in Thailand is derived from two sources: molasses and cassava. I choose bio-fuels since I am a cassava farmer. Cassava is one of the major crops farmed by mostly impoverished farmers: the switch to ethanol mixtures will certainly help a huge number of these farmers to improve their standard of living.

I have never noticed any damage to my engines through my use of B5 or E10.

Do you really believe you are going to see an improvement in the standards of farmers through the imposition of ethanol? It will only profit to the bigger farmers and those who have the most land. If you believe this charade of "improving standards of living", then obviously you have not lived long time enough in Thailand. LOL.

I always found it absurd to sacrifice valuable land to grown ethanol precursors instead of food...The example of short-sighted political decisions (which take place in the US as well).

Now, to dismiss your final point, cassava is typically grown on unfertile land that is unsuitable for most other crops. Think outside the square and you will see that there are other ways to solve the potential wrong use of productive land: the government needs only to designate areas for cassava crops, the areas that have always grown cassava for decades.

I already grow 170 rai (68 acres) of cassava – the end of the pure-petrol supply will not cause me to grow more but will certainly improve my bottom line. For most Thais (I'm not Thai, though my wife is) farming much less land, the extra demand should allow them to escape their indebtedness and actually prosper for a change.

Since when do you think someone can trust the government's decisions in the matters of allocation of resources? Thailand being what it is i am sure this will end up being distorted and abused.

As to indebtedness... i think you live with a lot of illusions on the world. Everything will be done to keep the poor really poor.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

You really ought to live up to your name and learn to free your mind of your narrow thinking and steadfast views. Since you choose to respond like a fool rather than learn from someone fully engaged in the realities of this issue, I’ll leave you to your self-satisfied ignorance.

[Tywais]

Let's calm down gentleman and stop with the personal attacks.

[Tanaka]

No panic! It will not happen. Things allways change in Thailand. Maybe anothger new goverment and all the rules gonna be changed again.

There are to many old cars on the road. Do peaple have to trow them away? Who will be responsable for the damages, not only in the engine, but fuel pumps, rubber hoses, seals, etc. they are not made for gasohol.

There was a time, 15 years ago, where they declarde a new law at tht time. no tinted window films over 40%. And what happen with that law? Its desapeard, with so many other laws as well. No panic!, They allways made decisions first without thinking and finally they have to change it again. In my homecountry Switzerland, noone uses Gasohol. We have not even 91 Benzene. We have 95 and 98 Octane.

The law against covering side windows and front screen with film is still very valid. But, as with so many laws here, it is not enforced by the Mob so nobody cares.

[krbkk]

Gasohol, or gasoline with alcohol blend, absorbs water vapor

Many older engines have carburetors, which corrode aluminum with gasohol.

Likewise, seals, mostly made of rubber, with older vehicles not suitable for gasohol

For the current engine operating on newer vehicles gasohol should be no problem if the gasohol is consumed within 1 week.

Vehicles with gas (LPG or NGV) may refuel gasohol because the fuel level is up to one year in the tank.

After this time (1 year) estimated that more than 5 to 10% of water molecules are in gasohol.

If this gasohol / water mixture is burned in the engine, quickly arise engine damage, mainly to pistons and valves

If the local Thai engineers that do not know or want to know or do not understand, should be sent to Germany for school, so that learn about the technology of internal combustion engines and fuel for knowledge.

[mr3cho]

Help I'm confused with all of these names. What exactly do they use in America (commonly known as gas or unleaded)?

Why is there not a bigger movement to switch to diesel?

[WarpSpeed]

Help I'm confused with all of these names. What exactly do they use in America (commonly known as gas or unleaded)?

Why is there not a bigger movement to switch to diesel?

Unleaded Gasoline is gasoline minus the lead content not gasohol but up north they use a lot more gasohol mostly because it tends not to freeze as easily as does gasoline in the winter months.. There is a push for gasohol and many racing series use it exclusively now to demonstrate how green they are but there's a lot of resistance to it's implementation across the board and rightfully so.

The grades of gasoline are regular (lower octane rating 91 or lower) Medium (a bit higher octane rating 95) and premium which is usually about 98 octane rating..

[jbrain]

Unleaded Gasoline is gasoline minus the lead content not gasohol but up north they use a lot more gasohol mostly because it tends not to freeze as easily as does gasoline in the winter months..

But Gasoline has a freezing point of -50 degrees celcius??

[WarpSpeed]

Unleaded Gasoline is gasoline minus the lead content not gasohol but up north they use a lot more gasohol mostly because it tends not to freeze as easily as does gasoline in the winter months..

But Gasoline has a freezing point of -50 degrees celcius??

Really? I wouldn't know, nor care, never concerned me as I never lived up north, I only know the reasoning the companies push it's sale in the northern regions and never had a need nor care to challenge it.. So probably best to direct that challenge to them.

[Tywais]

Unleaded Gasoline is gasoline minus the lead content not gasohol but up north they use a lot more gasohol mostly because it tends not to freeze as easily as does gasoline in the winter months..

But Gasoline has a freezing point of -50 degrees celcius??

Really? I wouldn't know, nor care, never concerned me as I never lived up north, I only know the reasoning the companies push it's sale in the northern regions and never had a need nor care to challenge it.. So probably best to direct that challenge to them.

Gas line freezing is not an uncommon problem (Google it). I lived in some seriously cold areas, North Dakota for one and we would often put in an additive, Methyl Hydrate (gas line anti-freeze), to prevent it. What happens is if the gas tank is low and left sitting overnight or longer water accumulates and can build in the gas lines and freeze. With gasohol, the problem would be compounded due to the fact alcohol absorbs water.

[Tywais]

An interesting tidbit - E10 has a shelf life of only 3 months. Source - Fuel Testers

[WarpSpeed]

Unleaded Gasoline is gasoline minus the lead content not gasohol but up north they use a lot more gasohol mostly because it tends not to freeze as easily as does gasoline in the winter months..

But Gasoline has a freezing point of -50 degrees celcius??

Really? I wouldn't know, nor care, never concerned me as I never lived up north, I only know the reasoning the companies push it's sale in the northern regions and never had a need nor care to challenge it.. So probably best to direct that challenge to them.

Gas line freezing is not an uncommon problem (Google it). I lived in some seriously cold areas, North Dakota for one and we would often put in an additive, Methyl Hydrate (gas line anti-freeze), to prevent it. What happens is if the gas tank is low and left sitting overnight or longer water accumulates and can build in the gas lines and freeze. With gasohol, the problem would be compounded due to the fact alcohol absorbs water.

No it wouldn't, it doesn't stay in your car long enough to absorb that much moisture but like I said you'd have to direct that query to the processors.

[Tywais]

No it wouldn't, it doesn't stay in your car long enough to absorb that much moisture but like I said you'd have to direct that query to the processors.

As I said above, leaving it for period of time such as overnight it will accumulate and it will freeze the gas lines and I stated 'gas tank low'. I've worked in climates of -30 and gas line freeze was real. I'm just making an educated guess that gasohol would compound it.

[barefoot1988]

guess its time to replace my 2 stroke lawn mower

[WarpSpeed]

No it wouldn't, it doesn't stay in your car long enough to absorb that much moisture but like I said you'd have to direct that query to the processors.

As I said above, leaving it for period of time such as overnight it will accumulate and it will freeze the gas lines and I stated 'gas tank low'. I've worked in climates of -30 and gas line freeze was real. I'm just making an educated guess that gasohol would compound it.

Yes you're missing the point. In order for gasohol to freeze it needs moisture in the fuel but there's not enough time nor exposure in the average sealed tank whether high or low to gain enough moisture to freeze in that short a period of time before requiring a refill, where as gasoline can already freeze at those temps without additional moisture just based on it's composition alone.

Gasohol in it's pure refined state, is without moisture as it comes from a pump, provided there are no contaminates in the storage tank at the local station it will not contain moisture and therefore will need several weeks sitting exposed in high humidity to absorb enough moisture to freeze.. Note I said "high humidity" which also does not occur in cold northern climates..

[Tywais]

No it wouldn't, it doesn't stay in your car long enough to absorb that much moisture but like I said you'd have to direct that query to the processors.

As I said above, leaving it for period of time such as overnight it will accumulate and it will freeze the gas lines and I stated 'gas tank low'. I've worked in climates of -30 and gas line freeze was real. I'm just making an educated guess that gasohol would compound it.

Yes you're missing the point.

I retract my thoughts on gasohol after thinking about it more. The fuel line anti-freeze is alcohol based and studies show that cars with gasohol have less possibility of gas line freeze. I'm usually better with checking my facts before posting assumptions.

Here are some interesting studies taken back in the 70's and 80's with large field tests and extended field tests of gasohol. Not what I expected.

Ethanol Fuels Reference guide

[ALFREDO]

What about motorbike drivers? They drive on 91 benzine?

I have an old 92/93 Honda CBR 400 Fireblade and drive now benzine with 91 Octane, I would use 95 O. but not Gasohol!

Do not know how long my parts will survive with Gasohol!?

[Semper]

I have used only B5 throughout all the years it was available here for my Vigo, Strada, Ford tractor, iron buffalo, and small diesel generator. Similarly, I have used E10 for all our family motorbikes on the farm plus small Honda-engine pumps.

Ethanol in Thailand is derived from two sources: molasses and cassava. I choose bio-fuels since I am a cassava farmer. Cassava is one of the major crops farmed by mostly impoverished farmers: the switch to ethanol mixtures will certainly help a huge number of these farmers to improve their standard of living.

I have never noticed any damage to my engines through my use of B5 or E10.

Do you really believe you are going to see an improvement in the standards of farmers through the imposition of ethanol? It will only profit to the bigger farmers and those who have the most land. If you believe this charade of "improving standards of living", then obviously you have not lived long time enough in Thailand. LOL.

I always found it absurd to sacrifice valuable land to grown ethanol precursors instead of food...The example of short-sighted political decisions (which take place in the US as well).

Lived here for over 18 years and farmed here for the past 16 years – I think I know what I’m talking about. Your comment proves you do not understand the issues you refer to. This has nothing to do with subsidies or government handouts (the type of things that can indeed lead to the enrichment of the middlemen only). I don’t think that the move will lead to a better price for the farmer – I know it will.

The use of cassava to produce ethanol creates a further use of this crop, which is already used for starch, flour, livestock feed, GMS flavouring, bio-degradable plastic, amino acid extraction, etc. The resultant extra demand for the crop has already very significantly increased the farmgate price (the price the ordinary farmer receives) of this crop. Around 25% of the crop is already used for ethanol production, with the vast majority of this ethanol production being done in China from cassava exported by Thailand. I received 780 baht per tonne of fresh cassava tuber some 15 years ago but 2,400-3,400 baht per tonne in recent years, largely because of China’s demand for ethanol.

Now, to dismiss your final point, cassava is typically grown on unfertile land that is unsuitable for most other crops. Think outside the square and you will see that there are other ways to solve the potential wrong use of productive land: the government needs only to designate areas for cassava crops, the areas that have always grown cassava for decades.

I already grow 170 rai (68 acres) of cassava – the end of the pure-petrol supply will not cause me to grow more but will certainly improve my bottom line. For most Thais (I’m not Thai, though my wife is) farming much less land, the extra demand should allow them to escape their indebtedness and actually prosper for a change.

The point is, gasohol su*ks.

[Khonwan]

Tywais, thanks for the useful links you have provided in this thread; performance of gasohol versus gasoline is better than I thought.

[WarpSpeed]

No it wouldn't, it doesn't stay in your car long enough to absorb that much moisture but like I said you'd have to direct that query to the processors.

As I said above, leaving it for period of time such as overnight it will accumulate and it will freeze the gas lines and I stated 'gas tank low'. I've worked in climates of -30 and gas line freeze was real. I'm just making an educated guess that gasohol would compound it.

Yes you're missing the point.

I retract my thoughts on gasohol after thinking about it more. The fuel line anti-freeze is alcohol based and studies show that cars with gasohol have less possibility of gas line freeze. I'm usually better with checking my facts before posting assumptions.

Here are some interesting studies taken back in the 70's and 80's with large field tests and extended field tests of gasohol. Not what I expected.

Ethanol Fuels Reference guide

Respect... Thought I'd come on today and find people trying to murder the messenger AGAIN...... Good you did some research and no one caught the fact that "methly hydrate" is an alcohol based blend, sometimes all you need is a good Shepard and one intuitive person to follow your lead .

Disclaimer: BTW before someone takes exception to my mention of being a "Shepard" that is in no way a suggestion that anyone here is a sheep.. It's just intended as a purposeful euphemism.

[transam]

Baaaaaaah, Baaaaaaaah.

[Tywais]

I guess this being Thailand, a hot climate, the opposite side of the coin to gas line freeze is vapor lock. I used to have a Porsche and in the summer after I drove it a while and park it for a half hour or so the bloody thing just wouldn't start. After messing around looking over the engine compartment a thought occurred to me. I released the gas cap and heard a loud whoosh and then the car started right up. Guess the vapor release vent was broken. My short 'research' indicates that gasohol can increase the chance of vapor lock.

[WarpSpeed]

As a follow up I'd also like to point out there is some confusion with how alcohol and moisture actually interact. The term "absorbs" is improper, alcohol changes the molecular composition of water moisture and is then absorbed as different compounds but not in a sponge like fashion of "absorption" waiting to be "wrung out" or frozen so the water is actually removed from the fuel not available for freezing or other.

A common old school method for removing small amounts of water from one's gas tank instead of draining is to add a bit of alcohol to it to disperse the moisture the best alcohol for this though is Isopropyl but Methyl also has a similar effect.

Simply run a bit of water in the base of your sink let it run down to just being moist and then pour some alcohol over it and watch how it disperses it, there's no "absorption" going on it's breaking down all the moisture in that area until all the alcohol content is used up..

[WarpSpeed]

I guess this being Thailand, a hot climate, the opposite side of the coin to gas line freeze is vapor lock. I used to have a Porsche and in the summer after I drove it a while and park it for a half hour or so the bloody thing just wouldn't start. After messing around looking over the engine compartment a thought occurred to me. I released the gas cap and heard a loud whoosh and then the car started right up. Guess the vapor release vent was broken. My short 'research' indicates that gasohol can increase the chance of vapor lock.

Yes, because it 'vaporizes' easier when heated and can 'vapor' lock because of it when sitting idly in heated locations such as fuel lines, fuel injection rails and intake manifolds under the hood.. Hence as I mentioned previously it's not used so much in hotter climbs in civilized countries where the officials who mandate it's uses have a better education and understanding.

These are some of the additional technical issues in addition to others mentioned that have required engineering changes to modern vehicles to make them compatible but there's still too many older vehicles and machinery around to make wholesale changes across the board like the Thai's are attempting to do.. Buuuttt TIT. They need vents added but these vents can not vent to atmosphere so they need to go through charcoal filters and such and also recycled allowing some fuel to bypass back into the tank to keep the fuel line temps cooler and allow for expansion within the fuel system to prevent over pressuring the system and forcing fuel into the intake while idle..

This is one reason alcohol has been commonly used for eons by medial professionals to lower patients body temperatures in dangerous situations as the alcohol evaporates very quickly on the skin and has a cooling effect while doing so.

[WarpSpeed]

Baaaaaaah, Baaaaaaaah.

You old sheep you! I was going to make you the exception but decided against throwing barbs..Have to say I think of you more like the old sheep dog instead of a sheep though ..

[thaicruze]

I use nothing but Gasohol 91.

[funcat]

...now I can see,how this one of the most informative TV forums goes to "she_ep"(!)...come on MRO,stop hiding...

[anon210]

...now I can see,how this one of the most informative TV forums goes to "she_ep"(!)...come on MRO,stop hiding...

He is among us... But you must count his fingers to recognize him... You will know him when you read a real well-informed post. And imho, it is a very good thing for TV's motor forum.

Back on topic: in tropical countries, it seems commonly admitted that it is a nonsensical idea to put ethanol in Gasoline. Partly because of nocive effects on motors... Partly because it detracts important farming land from food crops which are essential to feed the population (be it cassava, which was promoted as a cheap source of food for impoverished local communities).

[funcat]

...now I can see,how this one of the most informative TV forums goes to "she_ep"(!)...come on MRO,stop hiding...

He is among us... But you must count his fingers to recognize him... You will know him when you read a real well-informed post. And imho, it is a very good thing for TV's motor forum.

Back on topic: in tropical countries, it seems commonly admitted that it is a nonsensical idea to put ethanol in Gasoline. Partly because of nocive effects on motors... Partly because it detracts important farming land from food crops which are essential to feed the population (be it cassava, which was promoted as a cheap source of food for impoverished local communities).

Yeah,sure...but not same,same...IMHO