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Thailand's War With The Uk


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The point is that new cars produced in the highly efficient Thai factories are roughly the same price as comparable cars produced overseas and subject to >100% import duty; there is some differential, but not 100%. The Thai vehicles clearly have a much greater margin (or much higher manufacturing cost...). The used car price similarly reflects the inflated market, bearing in mind the price that the used car cost, when it was new...

SC

I looked at the prices of the Ford Fiesta new in both Malaysia and Singapore and they were the same or higher than Thailand. So what's the big deal? You think Thailand is selling cars in Australia cheaper than cars made in China?

China keeps their currency low. OK. Not fair. Are we attempting to address all the trade problems of the world in this thread?

Australia pays Australian car makers cash to make cars. OK. Who cares? Thailand has high import duties. Everyone knows this.

Australian tax payers pay to keep auto production in Australia. Japanese tax payers pay to keep rice production in Japan. Thailand Taxes citizens who buy cars pay more to keep auto production in Thailand. OK. I get it. But what does that have to do with anything? It is not the reason that Thai auto production is growing.

The Thai government is not smarter than the UK or US. Nor can they get things done with any more efficiency.

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The point is that new cars produced in the highly efficient Thai factories are roughly the same price as comparable cars produced overseas and subject to >100% import duty; there is some differential, but not 100%. The Thai vehicles clearly have a much greater margin (or much higher manufacturing cost...). The used car price similarly reflects the inflated market, bearing in mind the price that the used car cost, when it was new...

SC

I looked at the prices of the Ford Fiesta new in both Malaysia and Singapore and they were the same or higher than Thailand. So what's the big deal? You think Thailand is selling cars in Australia cheaper than cars made in China?

China keeps their currency low. OK. Not fair. Are we attempting to address all the trade problems of the world in this thread?

Australia pays Australian car makers cash to make cars. OK. Who cares? Thailand has high import duties. Everyone knows this.

Australian tax payers pay to keep auto production in Australia. Japanese tax payers pay to keep rice production in Japan. Thailand Taxes citizens who buy cars pay more to keep auto production in Thailand. OK. I get it. But what does that have to do with anything? It is not the reason that Thai auto production is growing.

The Thai government is not smarter than the UK or US. Nor can they get things done with any more efficiency.

My point was that tariffs on imported goods allow those willing to take the risk of investing in local production to make higher profits than they would in an unprotected market, or allows local producers to sustain inefficient practices. Therefore the consumer pays more for his goods either through tariffs, or higher prices. This is a disbenefit to the consumer.

When tariffs are removed, producers either become more efficient, or decline, and either their labour is absorbed by efficient producers, possibly in other industries, or labour rates decline to a level to that can find employment.

The WTO allows (to the extent that it has any power at all) greater protection for developing markets, such as Thailand, in order to accelerate their development and spread investment, but the aim, in the long run, I believe, is to give everyone equal and unhindered access to markets regardless of where they live. In the meantime, Thai consumers will have to continue funding the development of their auto industry.

In Singapore, car prices are also high due to import tariffs. In this case, this is not to protect a local auto industry, since there is none, but rather to constrain the growth in traffic and prevent congestion.

SC

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The point is that new cars produced in the highly efficient Thai factories are roughly the same price as comparable cars produced overseas and subject to >100% import duty; there is some differential, but not 100%. The Thai vehicles clearly have a much greater margin (or much higher manufacturing cost...). The used car price similarly reflects the inflated market, bearing in mind the price that the used car cost, when it was new...

SC

I looked at the prices of the Ford Fiesta new in both Malaysia and Singapore and they were the same or higher than Thailand. So what's the big deal? You think Thailand is selling cars in Australia cheaper than cars made in China?

China keeps their currency low. OK. Not fair. Are we attempting to address all the trade problems of the world in this thread?

Australia pays Australian car makers cash to make cars. OK. Who cares? Thailand has high import duties. Everyone knows this.

Australian tax payers pay to keep auto production in Australia. Japanese tax payers pay to keep rice production in Japan. Thailand Taxes citizens who buy cars pay more to keep auto production in Thailand. OK. I get it. But what does that have to do with anything? It is not the reason that Thai auto production is growing.

The Thai government is not smarter than the UK or US. Nor can they get things done with any more efficiency.

My point was that tariffs on imported goods allow those willing to take the risk of investing in local production to make higher profits than they would in an unprotected market, or allows local producers to sustain inefficient practices. Therefore the consumer pays more for his goods either through tariffs, or higher prices. This is a disbenefit to the consumer.

SC

Does the company willing to take the risk of investing in local production get any money from the tariff?

No. Therefore that is where the buck stops. The price has nothing to do with the tariff.

The price of an imported car in Thailand is the going rate of the car anyplace plus the tariff.

Thailand does not pay Ford the tariff.

Edited by chiangmaikelly
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In Singapore, car prices are also high due to import tariffs. In this case, this is not to protect a local auto industry, since there is none, but rather to constrain the growth in traffic and prevent congestion.

SC

So, just a question, is Singapore's tariff OK while Thailand's is not? You didn't say that I just wondered.

Edited by chiangmaikelly
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Singapore's tarrif is applied to all cars regardless of where they are manufactured, it is applied as a means of contrilling access to car ownership in a crowded island state.

Thailand's import duties are applied only to imported vehicles as a means of restricting foreign access to the Thai auto market unless the foreign makers move production to Thailand in which case they can avoid the duties and benefit from access to the protected Thai market.

Singapore's tarrifs and Thailand's import duties are completely different in objective and implementation - no reasonable comparrison of better/worse can be made between the two

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Singapore's tarrif is applied to all cars regardless of where they are manufactured, it is applied as a means of contrilling access to car ownership in a crowded island state.

Thailand's import duties are applied only to imported vehicles as a means of restricting foreign access to the Thai auto market unless the foreign makers move production to Thailand in which case they can avoid the duties and benefit from access to the protected Thai market.

Singapore's tarrifs and Thailand's import duties are completely different in objective and implementation - no reasonable comparrison of better/worse can be made between the two

That's nice and done in your usual pontifical style but that was not the question I asked. If you were not answering my question and only pontificating excuse me for butting in.smile.png

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Forgive me for "butting in" and pointing out the underlying failure within your question, I was under the impression that this is a discussion forum and that as a member of the forum I'm allowed to post in open discussions.

My doing so and pointing out the error in yourquestion might not sit well with you, but please this is not your personal forum and you do not get to control who posts here or what they can and cannot say.

To teat the pint Singapore's Tarrifs are completely different from Thailand's import duties, they are designed for a different purpose and they are implemented in a completely different way.

They are not at all the same thing, not at all comparrable.

Edited by GuestHouse
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Forgive me for "butting in" and pointing out the underlying failure within your question, I was under the impression that this is a discussion forum and that as a member of the forum I'm allowed to post in open discussions.

My doing so and pointing out the error in yourquestion might not sit well with you, but please this is not your personal forum and you do not get to control who posts here or what they can and cannot say.

To teat the pint Singapore's Tarrifs are completely different from Thailand's import duties, they are designed for a different purpose and they are implemented in a completely different way.

They are not at all the same thing, not at all comparrable.

I asked a simple question. I didn't ask anyone to compare and contrast tariffs. Singapore has an auto tariff and Thailand has an auto tariff. Are they both bad or both good or is one good and the other bad. If you can't answer don't worry. Some one will be along who can shortly, I'm sure.

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Correct me if I'm wrong...and someone will probably think that smile.png

The average car consumer in Thailand does not have the luxury of choice.

Many would love to be able to buy a foreign/imported car, but cannot due to the extortionate import duty.

This factor plus the ultra easy credit offered allows the average 10k per month office worker the limited but easily obtained option of the Thai manufactured car.

Of course many of the Thai built cars are exported - didn't check those figures - but for sure a lot less would be built for the home customer base if they had the option to buy a German car ( for example )

I'm not saying that this outcome ( expected or not ) is the cause/reason for/ of the import duty, but it is definitely partially the result of the effect.

I realise this argument has been flogged to death but I tried to simplify it for myself.

One business I do know about is guitars.

In the mid-late 1980's the Uk guitar business was booming - this was due to the expensive cost of importing US and Japanese built models.

And then one day the import tax was slashed and the Les Paul's, Telecasters, Strats and lovely SG2000's were available at a similar price to the cruder built UK models.

The result was that most of the UK guitar luthiers and business's either went bust or swapped sides.

Not exactly a prophecy but stranger things have happened - and the Thai economy is not going to get better with the current credit bubble growing every second.

Yup your wrong. You wrote, "Of course many of the Thai built cars are exported - didn't check those figures - but for sure a lot less would be built for the home customer base if they had the option to buy a German car ( for example )"

Thailand - assembly of C, E and S class vehicles by the Thonburi Group

http://www.mercedes-benz.co.th/content/thailand/mpc/mpc_thailand_website/enng/home_mpc/passengercars/home/new_cars/models/e-class/_s212/advice_sales/pricelist.html

Mercedes manufactures cars in Thailand. One of the advantages of reading a thread before posting is you would know things like that.

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They both acheive the objectives for which they were implemented.

Singapore's tarrifs restrict car ownership as intended.

Thailand's import duties provide the economic rational for foreign car makers to relocate car assembly to Thailand and protect those who do relocate to Thailand from external competition in the Thai market.

Good or bad depends entiry on your point of view of the objecives .

Both are well implemented.

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VW do not assemble cars in Thailand and hence VW imported cars are priced out of reach of most people in Thailand by import duties that go as high as 326%

If VW decided they want to sell mote cars in Thailand they would have to move production to Thailand to avoid the import duty and thereby reduce the cost of their cars in Thailand to an affordable level for the mass market (VW being a mass producer)

You would then tell us Thailand is making even more cars and expect us to believe the reason is superior Thai engineering and production technolgy while at the same time telling us the Thai import dutis have no impact.

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http://www.mercedes-.../pricelist.html

Mercedes manufactures cars in Thailand. One of the advantages of reading a thread before posting is you would know things like that.

Ok - consider this thread read :)

Mercedes are hardly an affordable choice for the masses when bought new here or overseas.

Is there a source that shows all of the models of cars that are built here?

I'm betting that over half of them are Vigos's and D-max and other derivatives.

Possibly cornered that market as the imported options are not affordable.

Edited by chonabot
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http://www.mercedes-.../pricelist.html

Mercedes manufactures cars in Thailand. One of the advantages of reading a thread before posting is you would know things like that.

Ok - consider this thread read smile.png

Mercedes are hardly an affordable choice for the masses when bought new here or overseas.

Is there a source that shows all of the models of cars that are built here?

I'm betting that over half of them are Vigos's and D-max and other derivatives.

Possibly cornered that market as the imported options are not affordable.

Google Mercedes made in Thailand. Also Thailand Made BMW 525d.

post-73727-0-87204500-1350723844_thumb.j

post-73727-0-32425900-1350723873_thumb.j

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http://www.mercedes-.../pricelist.html

Mercedes manufactures cars in Thailand. One of the advantages of reading a thread before posting is you would know things like that.

Ok - consider this thread read smile.png

Mercedes are hardly an affordable choice for the masses when bought new here or overseas.

Is there a source that shows all of the models of cars that are built here?

I'm betting that over half of them are Vigos's and D-max and other derivatives.

Possibly cornered that market as the imported options are not affordable.

Google Mercedes made in Thailand. Also Thailand Made BMW 525d.

They may be made in Thailand. But I believe they are BOI restricted. Eg they are classified as an import. Just the same as the Triumph motorcycles that are producted here in Thailand.

I could be wrong though.

sent from my ..................#

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http://www.mercedes-.../pricelist.html

Mercedes manufactures cars in Thailand. One of the advantages of reading a thread before posting is you would know things like that.

Ok - consider this thread read smile.png

Mercedes are hardly an affordable choice for the masses when bought new here or overseas.

Is there a source that shows all of the models of cars that are built here?

I'm betting that over half of them are Vigos's and D-max and other derivatives.

Possibly cornered that market as the imported options are not affordable.

Google Mercedes made in Thailand. Also Thailand Made BMW 525d.

They may be made in Thailand. But I believe they are BOI restricted. Eg they are classified as an import. Just the same as the Triumph motorcycles that are producted here in Thailand.

I could be wrong though.

sent from my ..................#

If that was the case then why would they make them in Thailand? You mean it is not because Mercedes wants to get around the import tax?

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In Singapore, car prices are also high due to import tariffs. In this case, this is not to protect a local auto industry, since there is none, but rather to constrain the growth in traffic and prevent congestion.

SC

So, just a question, is Singapore's tariff OK while Thailand's is not? You didn't say that I just wondered.

I never criticised the Thai tariffs. I said that because Thailand had high tariffs, Thais pay more for their cars than they would if there were no tariffs. They pay more for their imported cars, and they pay more for their locally manufactured cars, than if there was no tariff. The Thai policy on tariffs favours local industry at the expense of the consumer. In other countries, the consumer gets more support and protection.

Thailand has made a choice on their policy.

If people understood more clearly how that choice affected them, and who benefitted from that choice, they may change their opinion on the merits of the policy.

SC

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I personally think they are both bad - if that helps you any.

I would agree.

I disagree. I think that the Singaporean tariffs are good at containing congestion and allowing taxis to efficiently and quickly transport people around the city, while allowing the development of a highly effective public transport infrastructure. The alternative would be severe congestion which would greatly reduce the efficiency of the city. Having said that, I haven;t carried out a study on the relative merits of the Certificate of Entitlement, road pricing, fuel excise duty and the import tariffs on managing congestion, but the tariffs seem to be part of the armoury of tools that allows Singapore to effectively manage congestion.

The Thai tariffs seem to be effective in keeping car prices high, and out of reach of most of the working class. This reduces congestion, and supports an efficient taxi industry, particularly in Bangkok, where we live. For that reason, I support the tariffs, and I would also like to see excise duty on road fuel to encourage efficiency and discourage unimportant journeys, also shifting the balance of cost towards public transport, where fuel is a lower fraction of the total cost. However, that is not the purpose of Thai tariffs. The purpose of Thai tariffs is to encourage manufacturing in Thailand and develop the Thai motor industry. Given that the most sophisticated and developed motor industry in the world needed bailed out by its government, I question whether that is a sensible objective. However, you appear to believe that the tariffs have been effective in achieving that goal.

In Malaysia, the tariffs are in place for the same reason as in Thailand. Here, I lease a car, as the taxi industry is not so effective as in Thailand, and car ownership is wider. I am therefore paying over the odds, through the tariff, to support Malaysian manufacturers who are not competitive internationally without the subsidy of inflated local prices. However, that is just part of the cost of living here, and I am no more resentful of that than I am of the duty on beer, or the level of taxation in any given country. It is not something that irritates me through its pointless, inconvenient and counter-productive ineffectiveness, like the ban on legal alcohol sales during religious holidays.

SC

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The Thai tariffs seem to be effective in keeping car prices high, and out of reach of most of the working class.

SC

Thanachart Bank booked over 30 billion baht in car loans in the first quarter. One bank in one quarter. Woops! I guess not really out of reach of the working class, eh?

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The Thai tariffs seem to be effective in keeping car prices high, and out of reach of most of the working class.

SC

Thanachart Bank booked over 30 billion baht in car loans in the first quarter. One bank in one quarter. Woops! I guess not really out of reach of the working class, eh?

I'd have thought a more accurate measure of the number of cars being bought in Thailand was the new vehicle sales, which you quoted elsewhere. If Thanachart are letting 60,000 car loans in a quarter (assuming they're each about half a million, and that some part of the sale is paid cash), then they're getting a good proportion of the million or so car sales in the year (Thai MOF, quoted by Malaysia Automotive Institute).

SC

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http://www.mercedes-.../pricelist.html

Mercedes manufactures cars in Thailand. One of the advantages of reading a thread before posting is you would know things like that.

Ok - consider this thread read smile.png

Mercedes are hardly an affordable choice for the masses when bought new here or overseas.

Is there a source that shows all of the models of cars that are built here?

I'm betting that over half of them are Vigos's and D-max and other derivatives.

Possibly cornered that market as the imported options are not affordable.

Google Mercedes made in Thailand. Also Thailand Made BMW 525d.

They may be made in Thailand. But I believe they are BOI restricted. Eg they are classified as an import. Just the same as the Triumph motorcycles that are producted here in Thailand.

I could be wrong though.

sent from my ..................#

Talking about Triumph, I believe Triumph is the last truly British manufacturer. But for motorcycle only. The car manufacturer was bought by BMW who stopped the production a while ago.

Edited by JurgenG
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The Thai tariffs seem to be effective in keeping car prices high, and out of reach of most of the working class.

SC

Thanachart Bank booked over 30 billion baht in car loans in the first quarter. One bank in one quarter. Woops! I guess not really out of reach of the working class, eh?

I'd have thought a more accurate measure of the number of cars being bought in Thailand was the new vehicle sales, which you quoted elsewhere. If Thanachart are letting 60,000 car loans in a quarter (assuming they're each about half a million, and that some part of the sale is paid cash), then they're getting a good proportion of the million or so car sales in the year (Thai MOF, quoted by Malaysia Automotive Institute).

SC

It would not be accurate to assume the majority of loans are at half a million each nor would it be accurate to assume the majority of the loans go through a bank.

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The Thai tariffs seem to be effective in keeping car prices high, and out of reach of most of the working class.

SC

Thanachart Bank booked over 30 billion baht in car loans in the first quarter. One bank in one quarter. Woops! I guess not really out of reach of the working class, eh?

I'd have thought a more accurate measure of the number of cars being bought in Thailand was the new vehicle sales, which you quoted elsewhere. If Thanachart are letting 60,000 car loans in a quarter (assuming they're each about half a million, and that some part of the sale is paid cash), then they're getting a good proportion of the million or so car sales in the year (Thai MOF, quoted by Malaysia Automotive Institute).

SC

It would not be accurate to assume the majority of loans are at half a million each nor would it be accurate to assume the majority of the loans go through a bank.

Nor would it necessarily be the case that all car loans are to buy new cars.

Nor is it necessarily the case that bank loans are predominantly given to people who are less well off. So, in conclusion, I can't really extract any relevance from your bank loan number to my suggestion that inflated car prices, made possible by the imposition of barriers to competition, make it more difficult for working class Thais to buy cars.

The combination of free-market aspirational advertising and restrictive tariffs that hamper competition, could, were one inclined to see conspiracy theories, provide an opportunity for the well-off in Thailand to keep their peons in poverty, burdening them with debt so that they cannot save for their children's education, ensuring that the majority remain fit for work on the factory floor, and not in the design office. Personally, I don't believe such speculation, but if it was the case, how would things look different?

SC

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Thanachart Bank booked over 30 billion baht in car loans in the first quarter. One bank in one quarter. Woops! I guess not really out of reach of the working class, eh?

I'd have thought a more accurate measure of the number of cars being bought in Thailand was the new vehicle sales, which you quoted elsewhere. If Thanachart are letting 60,000 car loans in a quarter (assuming they're each about half a million, and that some part of the sale is paid cash), then they're getting a good proportion of the million or so car sales in the year (Thai MOF, quoted by Malaysia Automotive Institute).

SC

It would not be accurate to assume the majority of loans are at half a million each nor would it be accurate to assume the majority of the loans go through a bank.

Nor would it necessarily be the case that all car loans are to buy new cars.

Nor is it necessarily the case that bank loans are predominantly given to people who are less well off. So, in conclusion, I can't really extract any relevance from your bank loan number to my suggestion that inflated car prices, made possible by the imposition of barriers to competition, make it more difficult for working class Thais to buy cars.

The combination of free-market aspirational advertising and restrictive tariffs that hamper competition, could, were one inclined to see conspiracy theories, provide an opportunity for the well-off in Thailand to keep their peons in poverty, burdening them with debt so that they cannot save for their children's education, ensuring that the majority remain fit for work on the factory floor, and not in the design office. Personally, I don't believe such speculation, but if it was the case, how would things look different?

SC

I hate to play the "you don't live in Thailand card." But you don't. Who do you think goes to the 130 colleges and universities in Thailand? Everyone I know has a good job and a college degree. The import taxes don't do anything. I am surprised none of you has bothered to google "do tariffs work." They don't. The last economists that I knew of who thought tariffs worked were in the 1930's. Come to the industrial East coast of Thailand. Everyone has a car, house and job.

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Everyone I know has a good job and a college degree...Come to the industrial East coast of Thailand. Everyone has a car, house and job.

There you go. Case closed.

whistling.gif

Over the past 25 years, Thailand’s Eastern Seaboard has emerged as the country’s industrial hub, with the National Petrochemical Complex at Map Ta Phut in Rayong Province, the container port at Laem Chabang in Chonburi Province, and massive investments in power, water supply networks, refineries, highways, transportation, communications, human resources and supporting infrastructure.

Thailand has a large and integrated petrochemical industry, hosts international automotive manufacturers that export to 130 markets worldwide, and is consistently rated highly as being attractive for foreign direct investment. Hemaraj has played a key role in this industrial development.

Hemaraj’s industrial estates are located primarily on Thailand’s Eastern Seaboard. We have developed and manage six industrial estates, covering 31,350 rai or 13,000 acres. The industrial estates provide clusters for the petrochemical, automotive and other industries as well as 4 free zones inclusive in these areas.

From the mid 1990’s, Hemaraj began developing the “Detroit of the East” automotive cluster at our flagship Hemaraj Eastern Seaboard Industrial Estate andEastern Seaboard Industrial Estate (Rayong). These form the most significant automotive cluster in Thailand, with investments from Ford, Mazda, GM, Suzuki and more than 150 automobile manufacturers from all over the world. Hemaraj Eastern Industrial Estate (Map Ta Phut) is a prime location for the petrochemical sector.

post-73727-0-16295700-1350802261_thumb.j

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Everyone I know has a good job and a college degree...Come to the industrial East coast of Thailand. Everyone has a car, house and job.

There you go. Case closed.

whistling.gif

Over the past 25 years, Thailand’s Eastern Seaboard has emerged as the country’s industrial hub, with the National Petrochemical Complex at Map Ta Phut in Rayong Province, the container port at Laem Chabang in Chonburi Province, and massive investments in power, water supply networks, refineries, highways, transportation, communications, human resources and supporting infrastructure.

Thailand has a large and integrated petrochemical industry, hosts international automotive manufacturers that export to 130 markets worldwide, and is consistently rated highly as being attractive for foreign direct investment. Hemaraj has played a key role in this industrial development.

Hemaraj’s industrial estates are located primarily on Thailand’s Eastern Seaboard. We have developed and manage six industrial estates, covering 31,350 rai or 13,000 acres. The industrial estates provide clusters for the petrochemical, automotive and other industries as well as 4 free zones inclusive in these areas.

From the mid 1990’s, Hemaraj began developing the “Detroit of the East” automotive cluster at our flagship Hemaraj Eastern Seaboard Industrial Estate andEastern Seaboard Industrial Estate (Rayong). These form the most significant automotive cluster in Thailand, with investments from Ford, Mazda, GM, Suzuki and more than 150 automobile manufacturers from all over the world. Hemaraj Eastern Industrial Estate (Map Ta Phut) is a prime location for the petrochemical sector.

ATTENTION: Bizarre Non Sequitur Alert!

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

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