Thailand's War With The Uk

[GuestHouse]

"Are you saying because a person is Thai they can't design a car?

For the record I have never once said a person cannot design a car because they are Thai.

I don't know where you get the idea that I might have.

Or were you just trying to be offended?

A tad too hard perhaps.

[lineofentry]

My daughter is a QC engineer at Land Rover Jaguar, loves her work, they have gone to 24hour production, 3 shifts per day, high end advanced machines with high end advanced manufacturing. One of her little babies is worth a bit more than a Thai Pick up truck. How does that relate in the numbers war crap from OP.

[Mark1971]

CMK posted.

" I am still laughing about the import tax and investment incentives being responsible for the production of 2 million cars. “

According to The Nation newspaper, Thailand will produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2013, 1.5 Million of those vehicles will be for the Thai Domestic market.

According to The Daily Mail newspaper, Britain is forecast to produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2016. 0.4 Million of those vehicles are for the Domestic UK market.

Do you not think the fact that 80% of UK built vehicles are exported, while only 28% of Thai built vehicles are exported, may be related to Thai import taxes?

[GuestHouse]

CMK posted.

" I am still laughing about the import tax and investment incentives being responsible for the production of 2 million cars. “

According to The Nation newspaper, Thailand will produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2013, 1.5 Million of those vehicles will be for the Thai Domestic market.

According to The Daily Mail newspaper, Britain is forecast to produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2016. 0.4 Million of those vehicles are for the Domestic UK market.

Do you not think the fact that 80% of UK built vehicles are exported, while only 28% of Thai built vehicles are exported, may be related to Thai import taxes?

A more important question is - What will happen to Thailand's auto industry when the import duties are eventually removed?

And

Why is it that despite the huge success of foreign companies assembling cars in Thailand, Thailand itself has not been able to build on the experience and create a home grown Thai auto industry - choosing rather to focus on low cost input (Cheap labour) and not choosing to invest in research and development of the integration of imported technology into the Thai home technology base?

[WilliaminBKK]

On domestic car sales, Indonesia who set to produce 2 million cars in the coming years just introduced buyers make a minimum down payment of 25% for loans from financing companies and 30% for loans from banks, it was introduced to kerb excessive lending for vehicle purchases.

That type of law will surely halt domestic car sales.

[GuestHouse]

2 Million cars from Indonesia (also an ASEAN member) Malaysia, China, Vietnam, India ....... all competing for the same market of customers buying low cost mass produced cars.

I'd not want to draw a straight line prediction of market share or make a bet that import duties remain ignored by the WTO.

Thailand's auto industry at war - yes I can see that happening.

But not a war with the UK.

Edited October 18, 2012 by GuestHouse

[GuestHouse]

I wonder if these competitors here in SEA have built their auto production plants on flood planes?

[arthurwait]

Head of design is half Thai, half English. Where does the thread go now.

The Jaguar Design Team Leaders are:

IAN CALLUM (director of design)

JULIAN THOMSON (head of advanced design)

MATTHEW BEAVEN (principal designer)

GILES TAYLOR (chief designer, Jaguar XJ and XK)

ADAM HATTON (exterior design manager)

MARK PHILLIPS (interior design manager)

NICOLAS FINNEY (interior designer)

KIM CHALLINOR (colour and materials manager)

Non of those names look remotely Thai.

Ian Callum has a Wiki page http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ian_Callum No mention of him being Thai.

So who is this half Thai head of Design CMK is hanging his hopes on?

It's Julian Thomson. Ex head of lotus design best known for designing the Lotus Elise. Half Thai IIRC. Did transport design at Coventry and the royal college of art.

[Rob8891]

I don't have a clue.

This is not a revelation !

Are you still in kindergarten. Don't you think it is about time you grew up and stopped this silly flaming and nationalism that went out in the 1930"s. Autos are designed by international design teams composed of members who come from all over the world. If one has to gain some form of pride by pointing to a car and saying British they are a bit behind the times eh?

Interesting comment, in view of the title you chose, don't you think?

[GuestHouse]

It's Julian Thomson. Ex head of lotus design best known for designing the Lotus Elise. Half Thai IIRC. Did transport design at Coventry and the royal college of art.

Thanks for clarifying.

CMK has earlier asked the question (sic) does being Thai preclude a person from being an engineer/designer - while an attempt to make an accusation of racism - he has given everyone the chance to confirm that they do not hold the view that race has a part to play in ability and that the problem with the lack of engineering and design in Thailand is a result of Thai policy - a failure to develop education/training/research etc and rather focus on low cost labour.

So we need not to look at someone's race but at where they live, where they were raised, where they were educated?

If the individual is raised, educated, trained, encouraged and gains their experience in Thailand then yes I think Thailand can lay a claim to part in their achievements (regardless of what race/nationality they as individuals are).

If not and the only link to Thailand is a one parent then we get into arguing their race/nationality is a factor in their skill.

I trust that is not an argument anyone here is making.

[samran]

2 Million cars from Indonesia (also an ASEAN member) Malaysia, China, Vietnam, India ....... all competing for the same market of customers buying low cost mass produced cars.

I'd not want to draw a straight line prediction of market share or make a bet that import duties remain ignored by the WTO.

Thailand's auto industry at war - yes I can see that happening.

But not a war with the UK.

entirely my point which the OP can't seem to grip.

Ford does for instance integrate its Thai supply chain with Germany, South Africa and Australia. But its main market is Thailand and SE Asia.

[StreetCowboy]

I am surprised you would jump into this Thai race thing. Thought you were above it. Are you saying because a person is Thai they can't design a car? Yes I am having a laugh. The identity of the person designing the Jag is back up in the thread look it up if you want to. I am still laughing about the import tax and investment incentives being responsible for the production of 2 million cars.

No I have not stated that race has anything to do with ability.

I have stated that Thailand lacks the research, engineering and design infrastructure to produce Engineers and Designers - Now let me guess, before I go looking. A Thai designer on the Jaguar Design team (not the designer of the Jaguar F-Type ) where did he learn his trade?

I don't have a clue. I didn't post it. I think he was the head designer but I don't know anything about the guy. If you want to debate schools would you say Abhisit Vejjajiva did not produce a Thai government because he went to school in England? The whole engineering world is so international that any attempt to classify it by country is foolish.

Well to be honest it was you that said was a war on the topic between Thailand and the UK. Most of us tried to point out that there was not, and that they were both successful in their chosen markets, but you have continued to try and twist people's expressed opinions to support the claim that there is a war when there is not

SC

EDIT: And as I recall, another poster mentioned that one of the Jaguar design team had some Thai ancestors, and you then started calling him the Thai designer of the Jaguar car. I'll leave it to the forum lawyers to decide if that was racism or trolling to provoke racism. We've had a bit of a discussion on this thread about the apparent benefits of protectionism to the local auto industry, we've had some discussion on the relevant merits of production in Thailand versus its neighbours, and some discussion on the benefits of attracting offshore manufacturing. Unfortunately you have continued to try and twist the discussion back to the foolish wording of the original topic and make it a bickerfest to attract racist and nationalistic prejudice.

Edited October 19, 2012 by StreetCowboy

[samran]

CMK posted.

" I am still laughing about the import tax and investment incentives being responsible for the production of 2 million cars. “

According to The Nation newspaper, Thailand will produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2013, 1.5 Million of those vehicles will be for the Thai Domestic market.

According to The Daily Mail newspaper, Britain is forecast to produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2016. 0.4 Million of those vehicles are for the Domestic UK market.

Do you not think the fact that 80% of UK built vehicles are exported, while only 28% of Thai built vehicles are exported, may be related to Thai import taxes?

A more important question is - What will happen to Thailand's auto industry when the import duties are eventually removed?

You pose an interesting question there GH.

One of my economics lecturers at university did a lot of work lobbying for the abolition of tariffs on Australian auto's. Its been 2 decades, so forgive me if my memory is a little fuzzy, but his basic argument (about Australia) was that tariffs were doing nothing to prop up an already declining industry - so why have them?

The argument in Thailand (I suspect) is similar - that tarrifs actually do very little in effect to protect the industry, on the way up, or on the way down.

I highly suspect that it is the BOI incentives instead which are the main driver for investment into Thailand - along with the skills set that is undoubtedly available in Thailand to make this happen.

Now - what I find facinating about all this is that from an Australian angle, the Thai-Australia free trade agreement was actually hailed as a boost for the industry in both countries - particularly around the auto parts and components suppliers - which leads me to believe that Thailand is indeed an attractive market to do business. Anecdotally, I am told it is much easier to do business in a BOI zone in Thailand than in just about any other place in Asia - particularly China.

This last statement links into my earlier comments that I've heard that from an Auto's perspective - Thailand is one of the easier places in Asia.

O&G and electricity generation is the same to a large extent in that you have a relatively supportive regulatory and policy framework- while something that should be easier (eg mining) is an absolute P.I.T.A.

[chiangmaikelly]

My daughter is a QC engineer at Land Rover Jaguar, loves her work, they have gone to 24hour production, 3 shifts per day, high end advanced machines with high end advanced manufacturing. One of her little babies is worth a bit more than a Thai Pick up truck. How does that relate in the numbers war crap from OP.

My daughter is a QC engineer at Land Rover Jaguar, loves her work, they have gone to 24hour production, 3 shifts per day, high end advanced machines with high end advanced manufacturing. One of her little babies is worth a bit more than a Thai Pick up truck. How does that relate in the numbers war crap from OP.

It doesn't relate to it at all. I have no idea why you would post it.

[chiangmaikelly]

CMK posted.

" I am still laughing about the import tax and investment incentives being responsible for the production of 2 million cars. “

According to The Nation newspaper, Thailand will produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2013, 1.5 Million of those vehicles will be for the Thai Domestic market.

According to The Daily Mail newspaper, Britain is forecast to produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2016. 0.4 Million of those vehicles are for the Domestic UK market.

Do you not think the fact that 80% of UK built vehicles are exported, while only 28% of Thai built vehicles are exported, may be related to Thai import taxes?

A more important question is - What will happen to Thailand's auto industry when the import duties are eventually removed?

And

Why is it that despite the huge success of foreign companies assembling cars in Thailand, Thailand itself has not been able to build on the experience and create a home grown Thai auto industry - choosing rather to focus on low cost input (Cheap labour) and not choosing to invest in research and development of the integration of imported technology into the Thai home technology base?

1. The numbers are not up to date. 2012 the exports are running much closer to 50%.

2. The import duties have little to do with the success of the Thai auto production.

3. You wrote, "Why is it that despite the huge success of foreign companies assembling cars in Thailand, Thailand itself has not been able to build on the experience and create a home grown Thai auto industry." Since the sale of the UK auto companies to foreign interests the same question might be asked of the UK eh?

[chiangmaikelly]

I am surprised you would jump into this Thai race thing. Thought you were above it. Are you saying because a person is Thai they can't design a car? Yes I am having a laugh. The identity of the person designing the Jag is back up in the thread look it up if you want to. I am still laughing about the import tax and investment incentives being responsible for the production of 2 million cars.

No I have not stated that race has anything to do with ability.

I have stated that Thailand lacks the research, engineering and design infrastructure to produce Engineers and Designers - Now let me guess, before I go looking. A Thai designer on the Jaguar Design team (not the designer of the Jaguar F-Type ) where did he learn his trade?

I don't have a clue. I didn't post it. I think he was the head designer but I don't know anything about the guy. If you want to debate schools would you say Abhisit Vejjajiva did not produce a Thai government because he went to school in England? The whole engineering world is so international that any attempt to classify it by country is foolish.

Well to be honest it was you that said was a war on the topic between Thailand and the UK. Most of us tried to point out that there was not, and that they were both successful in their chosen markets, but you have continued to try and twist people's expressed opinions to support the claim that there is a war when there is not

SC

EDIT: And as I recall, another poster mentioned that one of the Jaguar design team had some Thai ancestors, and you then started calling him the Thai designer of the Jaguar car. I'll leave it to the forum lawyers to decide if that was racism or trolling to provoke racism. We've had a bit of a discussion on this thread about the apparent benefits of protectionism to the local auto industry, we've had some discussion on the relevant merits of production in Thailand versus its neighbours, and some discussion on the benefits of attracting offshore manufacturing. Unfortunately you have continued to try and twist the discussion back to the foolish wording of the original topic and make it a bickerfest to attract racist and nationalistic prejudice.

To answer your question or make a comment I would have to know what you are talking about. You wrote, "you have continued to try and twist people's expressed opinions to support the claim that there is a war when there is not." Perhaps you could support that with a quote. It is my belief that you are supporting a semantic argument and not an argument in fact.

[chiangmaikelly]

CMK posted.

" I am still laughing about the import tax and investment incentives being responsible for the production of 2 million cars. “

According to The Nation newspaper, Thailand will produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2013, 1.5 Million of those vehicles will be for the Thai Domestic market.

According to The Daily Mail newspaper, Britain is forecast to produce 2.2 Million vehicles in 2016. 0.4 Million of those vehicles are for the Domestic UK market.

Do you not think the fact that 80% of UK built vehicles are exported, while only 28% of Thai built vehicles are exported, may be related to Thai import taxes?

A more important question is - What will happen to Thailand's auto industry when the import duties are eventually removed?

You pose an interesting question there GH.

One of my economics lecturers at university did a lot of work lobbying for the abolition of tariffs on Australian auto's. Its been 2 decades, so forgive me if my memory is a little fuzzy, but his basic argument (about Australia) was that tariffs were doing nothing to prop up an already declining industry - so why have them?

The argument in Thailand (I suspect) is similar - that tarrifs actually do very little in effect to protect the industry, on the way up, or on the way down.

I highly suspect that it is the BOI incentives instead which are the main driver for investment into Thailand - along with the skills set that is undoubtedly available in Thailand to make this happen.

Now - what I find facinating about all this is that from an Australian angle, the Thai-Australia free trade agreement was actually hailed as a boost for the industry in both countries - particularly around the auto parts and components suppliers - which leads me to believe that Thailand is indeed an attractive market to do business. Anecdotally, I am told it is much easier to do business in a BOI zone in Thailand than in just about any other place in Asia - particularly China.

This last statement links into my earlier comments that I've heard that from an Auto's perspective - Thailand is one of the easier places in Asia.

O&G and electricity generation is the same to a large extent in that you have a relatively supportive regulatory and policy framework- while something that should be easier (eg mining) is an absolute P.I.T.A.

I doubt if GH can or will answer this question. Perhaps if you explained it in more basic terms. For example,"A HOLDEN Commodore SS Series 2 sells for $41,990. But strip away the government assistance and the same car could easily have a price tag of more than $50,000. Under the system of tariffs on imported cars and hefty subsidies for the local industry, car buyers are effectively paying twice. At an average price of $25,000, that means a subsidy of nearly 30 per cent of the price of an Australian car.

Steve Keen, a professor in economics at the University of Western Sydney, believes arguments for free trade ''are shot through with holes''. ''Every country that has successfully industrialised has done so with some involvement of government policy and by favouring local manufacturing,'' he said.

http://www.smh.com.a...0211-1syck.html

[chiangmaikelly]

I don't have a clue.

This is not a revelation !

Are you still in kindergarten. Don't you think it is about time you grew up and stopped this silly flaming and nationalism that went out in the 1930"s. Autos are designed by international design teams composed of members who come from all over the world. If one has to gain some form of pride by pointing to a car and saying British they are a bit behind the times eh?

Interesting comment, in view of the title you chose, don't you think?

I don't expect many to figure it out though.

[WilliaminBKK]

OP you've made 145 comments on a this thread and now you are talking down to us that we can't figure it out ? where are we going with this ?

[StreetCowboy]

OP you've made 145 comments on a this thread and now you are talking down to us that we can't figure it out ? where are we going with this ?

I think that the purpose of the thread was to provoke ill-natured sabre-rattling by the more nationalistic amongst us, in order to allow ourselves to demonstrate our own prejudice and bigotry.

CMK has adopted some of the same tactics that Cowslip uses - frequently asking questions in a provocative way, while avoiding giving any counter-argument, but CMK has ben much more effective in that this is not his sole tactic, and he has trawled the internet for some supporting facts and opinion as well.

SC

[chiangmaikelly]

OP you've made 145 comments on a this thread and now you are talking down to us that we can't figure it out ? where are we going with this ?

OP you've made 145 comments on a this thread and now you are talking down to us that we can't figure it out ? where are we going with this ?

Threads exist on different levels. This one has three or four.

[chiangmaikelly]

OP you've made 145 comments on a this thread and now you are talking down to us that we can't figure it out ? where are we going with this ?

I think that the purpose of the thread was to provoke ill-natured sabre-rattling by the more nationalistic amongst us, in order to allow ourselves to demonstrate our own prejudice and bigotry.

CMK has adopted some of the same tactics that Cowslip uses - frequently asking questions in a provocative way, while avoiding giving any counter-argument, but CMK has ben much more effective in that this is not his sole tactic, and he has trawled the internet for some supporting facts and opinion as well.

SC

40 years ago I worked for a firm of consulting engineers. I brought my connections from Ford into the international engineering company. We hired engineers from all over the world to do design work for Ford in a country outside of the US because it was cheaper. There was some problem with the UK aeronautical industry at the time and UK engineers were readily available in the market and less expensive than Canadian or US guys. It goes back and forth. The nationalism that has been displayed in this thread is really quite unusual in my experience working with automotive engineers. No one ever asked me who the end user would be. They just asked how much money the job paid.

I guess for some the comparison between Western and Thai technical skills is hard to fathom. I am waiting for the results of an ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code inspection right now. There are 100 people involved in the process and I am the only native English speaker including the inspectors. Funny eh?

[WilliaminBKK]

OP you've made 145 comments on a this thread and now you are talking down to us that we can't figure it out ? where are we going with this ?

OP you've made 145 comments on a this thread and now you are talking down to us that we can't figure it out ? where are we going with this ?

Threads exist on different levels. This one has three or four.

Three or Four levels, care to share ? I still say it is a UK bash so 2 3 4 are ?

[chiangmaikelly]

OP you've made 145 comments on a this thread and now you are talking down to us that we can't figure it out ? where are we going with this ?

OP you've made 145 comments on a this thread and now you are talking down to us that we can't figure it out ? where are we going with this ?

Threads exist on different levels. This one has three or four.

Three or Four levels, care to share ? I still say it is a UK bash so 2 3 4 are ?

A UK bash running on Thai Visa? Gimme a break. Never happen. This is UK home town turf. One, I wouldn't do it and two it would never be allowed.

[farang000999]

I always assumed that the auto manufacturers in Thailand did not actually need the tariffs to compete in the free market, they just like having them because it allows them to overcharge the public and the government officials get a kick back. Is this not the case?

[Orac]

I always assumed that the auto manufacturers in Thailand did not actually need the tariffs to compete in the free market, they just like having them because it allows them to overcharge the public and the government officials get a kick back. Is this not the case?

It would be interesting to see what portion/value of the parts are sourced in Thailand and how much comes from overseas and thus has an import duty applied to it. If most of these parts are fabricated in Thailand then someone is clearly making huge profits somewhere.

As an example, the new BMW 520i appears to retail at about 1.6m baht at current exchange rates in UK/Germany however the Thai version retails here at 3.6m baht.

[submaniac]

I always assumed that the auto manufacturers in Thailand did not actually need the tariffs to compete in the free market, they just like having them because it allows them to overcharge the public and the government officials get a kick back. Is this not the case?

Well, I know this may sound strange, but I've always felt that the tariffs on imported cars was really a progressive form of taxation that was targeted towards the rich. A car in Thailand is a bit of a luxury. It's not like the USA where everyone has them, and their cheap. So if you can afford a car, you are already higher up on the wealth scale. The government doesn't charge very much taxes or tariffs for two door, leaf spring pickup trucks, because they are necessary for farmers and workers, etc. Similarly, the local cars, such as the Honda brios, Nissan March are kept affordable by being manufactured in Thailand.

How I thought it was actually a very progressive tax was when we are talking imported cars. Like mercedes, and Ferraris, and Porsches. Yes people still buy those in Thailand. And they are supposed to (if not evading taxes) to pay like 180% taxes and tariffs on the cars. So it's like, yeah if you can afford to buy a Ferrari, pay the tax on it. That way the poor folks in the pickup trucks don't pay as much as the rich guy who wants a Ferrari. You don't absolutely need a Ferrari to survive, so pay the taxes if you want one.

Also with the Tarrifs, I think a point that has generally been missed here is that Thailand isn't the only one that used Tariffs. The United states used Tariffs on the import of Japanese motorcycles to protect Harley Davidson. That's why for a certain period (until HD managed to stabilize itself) Japanese bikes were made under a certain cc to avoid the tax.

Edited October 19, 2012 by submaniac

[submaniac]

.

As an example, the new BMW 520i appears to retail at about 1.6m baht at current exchange rates in UK/Germany however the Thai version retails here at 3.6m baht.

I wasn't aware the BMW 520i was manufactured in Thailand. (I don't think it is; think it's imported from Germany.) The price difference would be accountable in that the government added taxes and custom duties of approximately 180% when it was imported.

[Orac]

.

As an example, the new BMW 520i appears to retail at about 1.6m baht at current exchange rates in UK/Germany however the Thai version retails here at 3.6m baht.

I wasn't aware the BMW 520i was manufactured in Thailand. (I don't think it is; think it's imported from Germany.) The price difference would be accountable in that the government added taxes and custom duties of approximately 180% when it was imported.

My mistake

[GuestHouse]

I guess for some the comparison between Western and Thai technical skills is hard to fathom. I am waiting for the results of an ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code inspection right now.

I guess that's a Thai vessel code ... Perhaps the Ayutthaya Society of Mechanical Engineers.

I trust you aren't applying an imported engineering code here CMK?