Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[theblether]

You seem to think this is about England,and I am sure many others do as well, but it is not. It is a general intent to deny any mutual governance with our fellow British islanders, other than those that currently fall under the administrative bailliewick of Scotland.

And why do you think this is the goal rather than, say, an attempt to eliminate rule from a government not based in Scotland?

What does that mean???

[Richard W]

Thinking of the ambiguity of speech, here is an interesting quote from a speech in 2007 of Alex Salmond to the Northern Ireland Assembly (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Speeches/Speeches/First-Minister/fmstormont):

In return, my government stands ready to help this Assembly grow and develop in whatever ways the people represented in this Chamber so decide.

Is this a promise to allow it to become a devolved assembly within Greater Scotland if so desired? I don't actually think it was intended as such (I suspect he was quack-speaking), but that would be consistent with his earlier reference to Scotland covering both modern Scotland and Ireland!

[Richard W]

You seem to think this is about England,and I am sure many others do as well, but it is not. It is a general intent to deny any mutual governance with our fellow British islanders, other than those that currently fall under the administrative bailliewick of Scotland.

And why do you think this is the goal rather than, say, an attempt to eliminate rule from a government not based in Scotland?

What does that mean???

The objection to the union manifests itself as an objection to rule from Westminster. The practical objective to eliminate this is independence for the territories where Scots law runs. (Hmm, aren't there some trivial legal differences for the Shetlands?) An attempt to claim other territories would not be worth the hassle, and would dilute the simplicity of the aim.

Were there to be a split of the UK into the northern countries and the southern countries, then the northern countries would most likely be ruled from Edinburgh. Would not this satisfy the aspirations of most Scottish nationalists?

Let me offer an unlikely example. If the Faeroes acceded to Scotland, Scotland would still be governed from Edinburgh. The Faeroese are no more alien than the Orcadians were when the Orkneys were incorporated. Would there be strident calls to rid Scotland of these islands?

[StreetCowboy]

You seem to think this is about England,and I am sure many others do as well, but it is not. It is a general intent to deny any mutual governance with our fellow British islanders, other than those that currently fall under the administrative bailliewick of Scotland.

And why do you think this is the goal rather than, say, an attempt to eliminate rule from a government not based in Scotland?

What does that mean???

The objection to the union manifests itself as an objection to rule from Westminster. The practical objective to eliminate this is independence for the territories where Scots law runs. (Hmm, aren't there some trivial legal differences for the Shetlands?) An attempt to claim other territories would not be worth the hassle, and would dilute the simplicity of the aim.

Were there to be a split of the UK into the northern countries and the southern countries, then the northern countries would most likely be ruled from Edinburgh. Would not this satisfy the aspirations of most Scottish nationalists?

Let me offer an unlikely example. If the Faeroes acceded to Scotland, Scotland would still be governed from Edinburgh. The Faeroese are no more alien than the Orcadians were when the Orkneys were incorporated. Would there be strident calls to rid Scotland of these islands?

You'll be getting a fatwa on your head from the good people of Newcastle and Yorkshire and Lancashire and Cumbria for that blasphemy. My experience is that the English of the North of England are as English as any other, and share any disdain for the Scots that their Southern cousins may have. The only thing that they have in common with us is a dislike of their Southern cousins, but I do not believe that comes close to their dislike of foreigners, or of their Celtic compatriots.

SC

[nontabury]

Some people think that those who live one mile away are foreigners,where does it end. I'm always wary of people, who ever they are,who try to divide people.We are all human beings, how about focusing on what people have in common,but that would't suit the nationalists where ever they are.

[Scott]

Nasty, abusive comments deleted. Do not tell other posters what they can and cannot post. If you don't like their post, you may ignore it.

[7by7]

During your last reply 7x7 you demonstrated exactly what I'm talking about...........the Section 30 has been passed by agreement giving the right to Holyrood to run this election.

Link and quote please to any post of mine where I have said otherwise.

The EC are currently assessing the question by means of focus groups etc. and will report on what they consider to be the fairest wording.

The Better Together campaign has confirmed that they will accept any and all recommendations by the EC and have called upon the SNP to do the same.

The SNP refuse to do so and have said it is up to them to decide upon the final wording; i.e. that they will ignore the recommendations of the EC if they don't suit them.

So I ask again; why are the SNP afraid of wording the question to make it clear that a Yes vote means leaving the UK?

In my opinion the continued and rapid decline in the SNP's share of the vote in General Elections proves that the majority of Scottish people have a similar opinion of Salmond and his party as I; that they Scottish people do vote for them for the Scottish Parliament also proves that they feel the Scottish Parliament to be not much better than local government and that the SNP are fine for this small stage, but not for the big one at Westminster.

You may not like that opinion, but I still have the right to express it.

BTW, your continued use of the word 'gerrymandering' in reference to the devolution referendum shows that you do not know what the word means; I suggest you look it up.

[phuketjock]

During your last reply 7x7 you demonstrated exactly what I'm talking about...........the Section 30 has been passed by agreement giving the right to Holyrood to run this election.

Link and quote please to any post of mine where I have said otherwise.

The EC are currently assessing the question by means of focus groups etc. and will report on what they consider to be the fairest wording.

The Better Together campaign has confirmed that they will accept any and all recommendations by the EC and have called upon the SNP to do the same.

The SNP refuse to do so and have said it is up to them to decide upon the final wording; i.e. that they will ignore the recommendations of the EC if they don't suit them.

So I ask again; why are the SNP afraid of wording the question to make it clear that a Yes vote means leaving the UK?

In my opinion the continued and rapid decline in the SNP's share of the vote in General Elections proves that the majority of Scottish people have a similar opinion of Salmond and his party as I; that they Scottish people do vote for them for the Scottish Parliament also proves that they feel the Scottish Parliament to be not much better than local government and that the SNP are fine for this small stage, but not for the big one at Westminster.

You may not like that opinion, but I still have the right to express it.

BTW, your continued use of the word 'gerrymandering' in reference to the devolution referendum shows that you do not know what the word means; I suggest you look it up.

Same old bone and same answer 7

7 Has the EC recommended that the question be changed NO Has the EC recommended anything at

this point NO. Has the question to be asked been finalised yet NO. It is quite clear and has been agreed

by all concerned that whatever question the Scottish government deem appropriate will be the question

asked. That is how it is whether you agree or not, end of, get over it, Subject closed.

If you do not wish to feel offended by suggestions that you think the

Scottish people are stupid then do not post statements that imply you

do.

Unfortunately 7 on this your opinion, as vauable as it is, is completely

irrelevant sorry

Edited December 26, 2012 by phuketjock

[7by7]

The EC has not made any recommendations yet, they are still researching via focus groups etc.

The Better Together campaign has confirmed that they will accept any and all recommendations by the EC and have called upon the SNP to do the same.

The SNP refuse to do so and have said it is up to them to decide upon the final wording; i.e. that they will ignore the recommendations of the EC if they don't suit them.

Sorry to repeat myself, but you seemed to have missed it first time.

You can't answer the question; fine. Maybe theblether will as he seems to have a direct line to Salmond; but I doubt it. It is obvious that the pro independence lobby here don't like the awkward questions.

Link, please, to where I have called the Scottish people stupid, or even implied such.

You have inferred it, I have never implied it. That's your problem, not mine.

PS, one of the things I like about this forum is that we are on opposite sides here, but in agreement on another thread.

[phuketjock]

The EC has not made any recommendations yet, they are still researching via focus groups etc.

The Better Together campaign has confirmed that they will accept any and all recommendations by the EC and have called upon the SNP to do the same.

The SNP refuse to do so and have said it is up to them to decide upon the final wording; i.e. that they will ignore the recommendations of the EC if they don't suit them.

Sorry to repeat myself, but you seemed to have missed it first time.

You can't answer the question; fine. Maybe theblether will as he seems to have a direct line to Salmond; but I doubt it. It is obvious that the pro independence lobby here don't like the awkward questions.

Link, please, to where I have called the Scottish people stupid, or even implied such.

You have inferred it, I have never implied it. That's your problem, not mine.

PS, one of the things I like about this forum is that we are on opposite sides here, but in agreement on another thread.

I think it must be clear to all here that the question that will eventually be asked will be

decided by the politicians who have been given, by all concerned, the mandate to do so.

When that happens we will I am sure be aware of it.

I think you are well aware of where I am referring to on the question amendment that I

claimed you were insinuating the lack of intelligence of the Scots

Just like the real world 7 not everyone agrees on everything but most of similar thought

agree on many.

Edited December 26, 2012 by phuketjock

[7by7]

I think it must be clear to all here that the question that will eventually be asked will be

decided by the politicians who been given, by all concerned, the mandate to do so.

Indeed, and those politicians are the SNP.

Why wont they confirm that they will accept the recomendations of the EC, as the Better Together campaign have already done?

I have expalined before my reasoning behind making the question absolutely clear; reasoning based upon the opinions of experts in the field. If you inferred that as being a comment on the intelligence of the Scottish people en mass then I am sorry.

For example:

Yes, I know it's fiction; but you see the principle.

[phuketjock]

I think it must be clear to all here that the question that will eventually be asked will be

decided by the politicians who been given, by all concerned, the mandate to do so.

Indeed, and those politicians are the SNP.

Why wont they confirm that they will accept the recomendations of the EC, as the Better Together campaign have already done?

I have expalined before my reasoning behind making the question absolutely clear; reasoning based upon the opinions of experts in the field. If you inferred that as being a comment on the intelligence of the Scottish people en mass then I am sorry.

For example:

Yes, I know it's fiction; but you see the principle.

7 you can ask that question till the proverbial cows come home but you know

only the politicians I mentioned can give you the answer so ask them 7 ask them.

Apologies not required here 7 it's like a family and after all it is Christmas for a

few more days only, then let battle resume. Merry Chistmas and a very Happy

New Year to all

Excellant clip btw 7 cheers.

Edited December 26, 2012 by phuketjock

[7by7]

7 you can ask that question till the proverbial cows come home but you know

only the politicians I mentioned can give you the answer so ask them 7 ask them.

Well, I've asked theblether, which is the same thing; but he wont answer!

Merry Chistmas and a very Happy

New Year to all

Indeed.

I'm not working 'til the 2nd, but the wife is (she was offered the choice of today off or New Years Day; she chose New Years Day as we expect to be a bit worse for wear then!) so I'll be stuck at home alone this week; although various friends keep threatening to drag me down the pub; I'll probably let them!

[phuketjock]

7 you can ask that question till the proverbial cows come home but you know

only the politicians I mentioned can give you the answer so ask them 7 ask them.

Well, I've asked theblether, which is the same thing; but he wont answer!

Merry Chistmas and a very Happy

New Year to all

Indeed.

I'm not working 'til the 2nd, but the wife is (she was offered the choice of today off or New Years Day; she chose New Years Day as we expect to be a bit worse for wear then!) so I'll be stuck at home alone this week; although various friends keep threatening to drag me down the pub; I'll probably let them!

I believe theblether is on the road today but I am sure he will be at you soon lol

Good chance I may be absent for a while also but you know I will be keeping an eye.

Cheers 7

[bigbamboo]

7 you can ask that question till the proverbial cows come home but you know

only the politicians I mentioned can give you the answer so ask them 7 ask them.

Well, I've asked theblether, which is the same thing; but he wont answer!

Merry Chistmas and a very Happy

New Year to all

Indeed.

I'm not working 'til the 2nd, but the wife is (she was offered the choice of today off or New Years Day; she chose New Years Day as we expect to be a bit worse for wear then!) so I'll be stuck at home alone this week; although various friends keep threatening to drag me down the pub; I'll probably let them!

I believe theblether is on the road today but I am sure he will be at you soon lol

Good chance I may be absent for a while also but you know I will be keeping an eye.

Cheers 7

Of course, it's the start of Hogmanay Week!

Edited December 26, 2012 by bigbamboo

[jpinx]

Of course, it's the start of Hogmanay Week!

No -- I think he's referring to "holidays" of another kind.

[sbk]

Actually, I am of the understanding there is alot of schoolyard bully boy tactics going on in this thread and mods have had enough of it.

//CLOSED//