Asia's Archaic Sex Work Laws

[catweazle]

#126 chiangmaikelly; sorry mate , you HAVE missed the point, the father DID NOT KNOW ;and im not talking about hookers i'm talking about the other 95%+ of thai girls that are descent and not visiting a temple just for atonement /making merit crap, they would be so ashamed/embarassed and it would be a closely guarded secret to any NORMAL thai girl ,..& that says it all, i have have friends here {farang}who have confided in me after telling the gf they dont want more kids , but the girls have still gone ahead telling the family at the last possible moment., i have personal experience of this too , but im not doing my laundry here on an open forum, but let me assure you again, the thai population has not grown from 14m to 70m in less than 45 yrs cos they can afford the kids they have ,...........hence the superb education !!, ...it is frowned upon BIG time here, ask a GOOD THAI FAMILY ,......... if you know one !

I don't really think abortion is the topic but I would imagine abortion reaches across all sectors of the Thai population from the lowest of low to the highest of high. I would imagine both normal and abnormal Thai women get abortions. Abortion may be frowned on but it is readily available.

you can imagine what you like ,...maybe it is not the topic,...but believe me , its not as easy as you think ....reply when you have talked to a thai lady trying to get one !.......let me know about her experience ......PLEASE ! , thank u ,.....u have no idea for sure,....i know by your reply you are ignorant to the matter in thailand ..........apart from knowing SOME of them take place in a temple .... where are the rest of them done ?

@chiangmaikelly: Osiboy is right! Btw - could you pls explain to me what an "abnormal" Thai woman is???

[oldthaihand99]

Thailand is also a relatively decent place to be a prostitute because although it is illegal, authorities usually turn a blind eye,

Usually turn a blind eye?

Has any "john" ever been arrested, in the entire history of Thailand, for paying for consentual sex with an adult prostitute?

Has any adult sex worker ever been punished by Thai law for recieving payment for sex?

Sometimes hookers are fined or brought to the station for public solicitation in a shameful manner or for being a nuisance, but that is not the same as being punished for prostitution (recieving pay for sex) itself.

It is not clear if simple prostitution is technicly legal or illegal in Thailand, although in practice it certainly is legal according to all appearances.

What is illegal is the things that surround it, like pimping, advertizing it publicly, soliciting shamelessly, doing it with or as an underage worker, etc

http://www.ilo.org/dyn/natlex/docs/WEBTEXT/46403/65063/E96THA01.htm

Edited October 25, 2012 by oldthaihand99

[DrTuner]

Has any adult sex worker ever been punished by Thai law for recieving payment for sex?

That's practically a monthly event in Pattaya, the BiB getting their tea allowance from the trade at Beach Road. Reported as being charged for prostitution. Usually Uzbek or some such.

Edited October 25, 2012 by DrTuner

[oldthaihand99]

Child support is for the child and a judge doesn't care what the mother did. That is not the child's fault. As a subsequence, even if the mother is a prostitute and the father a punter, he will have to pay. Even in Thailand.

Thai law proiveds for child support, like most other countries and a ruling on child support is because of international treaties enforcable in all states that are party to these treaties, and that are a lot.

But the difficulties with a Thai hooker getting supporting include finding the father (amongst many customers), proving paternity with a DNA test only after the child is born (so no support until after birth, at the earliest), etc

Edited October 25, 2012 by oldthaihand99

[oldthaihand99]

Has any adult sex worker ever been punished by Thai law for recieving payment for sex?

That's practically a monthly event in Pattaya, the BiB getting their tea allowance from the trade at Beach Road. Reported as being charged for prostitution. Usually Uzbek or some such.

The news reports sometimes call it a charge of being a nuisance or prostitution.

What the official police reports call it may be something else.

What the law calls is may be yet another thing.

According to the Thai law it seems they are not getting charged for prostitution, but this:

"Section 5. Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, introduces herself or himself to, follows or importunes a person in a street, public place or any other place in an open and shameless manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand Baht."

http://www.ilo.org/d...63/E96THA01.htm

Has any "john" ever been arrested, in the entire history of Thailand, for paying for consentual sex with an adult prostitute?

Edited October 25, 2012 by oldthaihand99

[simple1]

Has any adult sex worker ever been punished by Thai law for recieving payment for sex?

That's practically a monthly event in Pattaya, the BiB getting their tea allowance from the trade at Beach Road. Reported as being charged for prostitution. Usually Uzbek or some such.

The news reports sometimes call it a charge of being a nuisance or prostitution.

What the official police reports call it may be something else.

What the law calls is may be yet another thing.

According to the Thai law it seems they are not getting charged for prostitution, but this:

"Section 5. Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, introduces herself or himself to, follows or importunes a person in a street, public place or any other place in an open and shameless manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand Baht."

http://www.ilo.org/d...63/E96THA01.htm

Has any "john" ever been arrested, in the entire history of Thailand, for paying for consentual sex with an adult prostitute?

In Pattaya, the Beach Road freelance sex workers are arrested, registered. fined a 100 baht and then released, usually in batches of around 50 people - this is practically a weekly event and makes no difference whatsoever. Just a complete waste of time for "cleaning up" the image of Pattaya as a sex tourist destination.

[oldthaihand99]

Has any adult sex worker ever been punished by Thai law for recieving payment for sex?

That's practically a monthly event in Pattaya, the BiB getting their tea allowance from the trade at Beach Road. Reported as being charged for prostitution. Usually Uzbek or some such.

The news reports sometimes call it a charge of being a nuisance or prostitution.

What the official police reports call it may be something else.

What the law calls is may be yet another thing.

According to the Thai law it seems they are not getting charged for prostitution, but this:

"Section 5. Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, introduces herself or himself to, follows or importunes a person in a street, public place or any other place in an open and shameless manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand Baht."

http://www.ilo.org/d...63/E96THA01.htm

Has any "john" ever been arrested, in the entire history of Thailand, for paying for consentual sex with an adult prostitute?

In Pattaya, the Beach Road freelance sex workers are arrested, registered. fined a 100 baht and then released, usually in batches of around 50 people - this is practically a weekly event and makes no difference whatsoever. Just a complete waste of time for "cleaning up" the image of Pattaya as a sex tourist destination.

Where do you think that 5000 baht a week goes?

Waste of time? For who?

How many bottles of Thai whisky & Thai brothel hookers can be bought for 5000 baht every week?

[chiangmaikelly]

So leaving out numbers, what did you mean by "abnormal"?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Osiboy wrote, "they would be so ashamed/embarassed and it would be a closely guarded secret to any NORMAL thai girl"

I was trying to cover the spectrum so in this instance abnormal would be the opposite of normal in the sense that Osiboy used the word.

I have no other meanings nor wish to engage in any semantic debate about the words normal and abnormal.

[oldthaihand99]

(snip)

and bare back was the norm in those earlier days.

(snip)

You are right, Thailand would be different but it could work (rose tinted glasses on). The hurdle will be Thai Government and politicians going it alone to implement such a thing, which by default acknowledges the whole thing exists. That's not an easy pill to swallow.

In 'those days"? It seems bareback (BBFS) is still happening quite regularly...now...in the 3rd millenium, though perhaps it's not "the norm".

As for "implementing" a safe sex system, it's the punters' responsibility to get both themselves & their sex partners tested for HIV & other STI's!

There's no excuse, as testing costs peanuts in Siam & the country is very advanced medically in this regard, as stated in 2007 by Dr. HHH, a world renowned STI expert:

"...Thailand is a medically sophisticated country, and I cannot imagine that they use HIV tests with lower standards than in Europe and North America."

http://www.medhelp.o...eks/show/303077

http://www.eurekaler...--dhh030310.php

Edited October 26, 2012 by oldthaihand99

[chiangmaikelly]

#126 chiangmaikelly; sorry mate , you HAVE missed the point, the father DID NOT KNOW ;and im not talking about hookers i'm talking about the other 95%+ of thai girls that are descent and not visiting a temple just for atonement /making merit crap, they would be so ashamed/embarassed and it would be a closely guarded secret to any NORMAL thai girl ,..& that says it all, i have have friends here {farang}who have confided in me after telling the gf they dont want more kids , but the girls have still gone ahead telling the family at the last possible moment., i have personal experience of this too , but im not doing my laundry here on an open forum, but let me assure you again, the thai population has not grown from 14m to 70m in less than 45 yrs cos they can afford the kids they have ,...........hence the superb education !!, ...it is frowned upon BIG time here, ask a GOOD THAI FAMILY ,......... if you know one !

I don't really think abortion is the topic but I would imagine abortion reaches across all sectors of the Thai population from the lowest of low to the highest of high. I would imagine both normal and abnormal Thai women get abortions. Abortion may be frowned on but it is readily available.

you can imagine what you like ,...maybe it is not the topic,...but believe me , its not as easy as you think ....reply when you have talked to a thai lady trying to get one !.......let me know about her experience ......PLEASE ! , thank u ,.....u have no idea for sure,....i know by your reply you are ignorant to the matter in thailand ..........apart from knowing SOME of them take place in a temple .... where are the rest of them done ?

Sorry but I never said any of them took place in a temple. I wrote that the ladies went to the temple to talk to the Monk after one of the women had an abortion to find out what to do. The Monk advised them.

According to Professor Kamheang Chaturachinda, president of the Women's Health and Reproductive Rights Foundation of Thailand, some estimates say 300,000 to 400,000 abortions are performed each year.

Following the discovery of more than 2,000 aborted fetuses at a temple crematorium in Bangkok last week (Nov 2010), Thai police have promised a crackdown on clinics performing illegal abortions.

http://www.time.com/...2032414,00.html

[TwoDogz]

I was told the Aussies were waiting all set up in the bars long before the Yanks got to Pattaya.

Nobody cuts our grass.

I had some mates organise a prostitute for me on my bucks night a few years back. I just couldn't bring myself to touch it, that thought of what she did was a huge turn off for me. It didn't go to waste tho, 1/2 dozen very drunk mates lined to have thier way with it. I must say I to think of them as dirty.

They are human beings as well you know in case you have not noticed.

Bank robbery should be legal, Banks screw more people than the worldwide population of hooekrs anyway.

[belg]

everybody can have another means of income than spreading their legs... off course it is the easiest and quickest buck

[chooka]

I was told the Aussies were waiting all set up in the bars long before the Yanks got to Pattaya.

Nobody cuts our grass.

I had some mates organise a prostitute for me on my bucks night a few years back. I just couldn't bring myself to touch it, that thought of what she did was a huge turn off for me. It didn't go to waste tho, 1/2 dozen very drunk mates lined to have thier way with it. I must say I to think of them as dirty.

They are human beings as well you know in case you have not noticed.

Bank robbery should be legal, Banks screw more people than the worldwide population of hooekrs anyway.

True but not the sort you would have any relationship with.

[Orac]

everybody can have another means of income than spreading their legs... off course it is the easiest and quickest buck

I disagree. The easier buck is from getting someone else to spread their legs and then charging for it.

[dighambara]

Did anyone read the article that the OP talks about?

New Zealand and Australia's New South Wales are models of how decriminalization of prostitution boosted condom use and slowed the spread of HIV, resulting in "extremely low or non-existent" transmission among sex workers, the report said.

In fact, Thailand and New Zealand sound like the best places in Asia to be a prostitute

Thailand is also a relatively decent place to be a prostitute because although it is illegal, authorities usually turn a blind eye, enabling many upmarket Thai and foreign sex workers to enjoy higher wages, cleaner environments and less hassle compared with elsewhere in Asia.

Prostitutes "rescued" against their will often suffer an immediate and devastating loss of income. Their colleagues, also working voluntarily, then often hide from authorities and end up in worse conditions where they are exploited and more vulnerable to HIV infection, the report said

YEP - "World's Oldest Profession" - likely started by a lazy married caveman when he saw his unmaried neighbor come home with food. Laws against such things are outmoded, especially as they are ignored everywhere. Legalization and licensing seem reasonable practices, but both prostitution and corruption won't dissipate, until the people are better educated...

SIDE POINT - Having seen Prostitution in other countries, I cannot consider the 'Norm' here as being prostitution.

A fellow sees a woman he likes and they chat for a while - no money is discussed. If he wants to sleep with her, she may ask 'what will you give me? - This relates to Thai customs (& Slavery) from antiquity, where a low born girl (or Slave) normally expected a gift, for which she would willingly sleep with the master.

YES, real problems exist for the 'Short ime' industry and that is Prostitution.

[fruittbatt]

To get back on the topic...

I posted previously that most workers in farang-frequented bars in Thailand insist on condom use. Other posters pointed out correctly that this does not mean that the same practices and knowledge applies in bars where the customers are primarily Thai or Burmese men. However, I do know that at least one Thai sex-worker advocacy group distributes condoms and regularly spends time with the sex-workers in these bars. I assume that this informal peer education and friendship is helpful to the women who work in these bars.

The UN report also notes that many attempts to regulate the sex industry have unfortunate consequences. This is quite true. In the case of Vietnam, women who are sex-workers face jail terms and rehabilitation programs which teach them to do "honest" work. It is important to know that "honest" usually means underpaid and menial jobs such as working in a shoe factory or learning to sew for a multi-national mega-profitable sweat shop. This is totally exploitative of women's labour and is opportunistic punitive regulation at its worst. Women who have worked as sex-workers are often further "punished" in jails by sadistic staff. A friend spoke recently with a group of Vietnamese sex workers who reported being raped in jail, having finger-tips cut off, and being beaten.

Certainly laws which sanction such archaic and sadistic abuse need to be changed. However, de-regulation would seem to be a better option than legalisation, since legalisation allows for strict policing and so encourages the growth of a black market for sex when sex-workers are not allowed to work in "legal" houses.

[SteeleJoe]

Having seen Prostitution in other countries, I cannot consider the 'Norm' here as being prostitution.

A fellow sees a woman he likes and they chat for a while - no money is discussed. If he wants to sleep with her, she may ask 'what will you give me? - This relates to Thai customs (& Slavery) from antiquity, where a low born girl (or Slave) normally expected a gift, for which she would willingly sleep with the master.

YES, real problems exist for the 'Short ime' industry and that is Prostitution.

This is not the "norm" here.

So many people on this thread (perhaps virtually everyone) talks about the Thai sex industry as if it's confined to what they see on Sukhumvit Rd or in South Pattaya. (And indeed focus on the most ideal but certainly not universal versions of what goes on in those places).

The Thai sex industry is huge, multi-faceted, and heirarchial. To put it very simply (and simplistically): there is a level (like anywhere) that is for extremely high end consumers and it's all, for the most part, nice and shiny and no arguably no real harm done. There is a level that is horribly inhumane and unjust. The level that caters to most Farangs is above the median on that spectrum -- not at the very top but certainly far, far higher than the bottom and often in many ways different and more benign -- even positive -- than much of what caters to Thais. (Fun and relaxed interaction with customer. Choice of customers. Comfortable surroundings that are often far nicer than a person of his/her socio-economic status would enjoy. Travel and relatively exotic experiences. And so on...)

But not all Thai sex workers have that sort of experience. In fact only a small portion do.

(And prostitution is prostitution no matter how it goes down. There doesn't have to be anything inherently pejorative in the word. I've known some very fine people who engaged in prostitution and I don't think they are lesser people for having done so.)

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Edited October 26, 2012 by SteeleJoe

[chiangmaikelly]

To get back on the topic...

I posted previously that most workers in farang-frequented bars in Thailand insist on condom use. Other posters pointed out correctly that this does not mean that the same practices and knowledge applies in bars where the customers are primarily Thai or Burmese men. However, I do know that at least one Thai sex-worker advocacy group distributes condoms and regularly spends time with the sex-workers in these bars. I assume that this informal peer education and friendship is helpful to the women who work in these bars.

The UN report also notes that many attempts to regulate the sex industry have unfortunate consequences. This is quite true. In the case of Vietnam, women who are sex-workers face jail terms and rehabilitation programs which teach them to do "honest" work. It is important to know that "honest" usually means underpaid and menial jobs such as working in a shoe factory or learning to sew for a multi-national mega-profitable sweat shop. This is totally exploitative of women's labour and is opportunistic punitive regulation at its worst. Women who have worked as sex-workers are often further "punished" in jails by sadistic staff. A friend spoke recently with a group of Vietnamese sex workers who reported being raped in jail, having finger-tips cut off, and being beaten.

Certainly laws which sanction such archaic and sadistic abuse need to be changed. However, de-regulation would seem to be a better option than legalisation, since legalisation allows for strict policing and so encourages the growth of a black market for sex when sex-workers are not allowed to work in "legal" houses.

Sorry but I don't agree with you. Condom usage in some sectors of the Farang/Thai market is rare and not the norm and I can prove it. I'll PM you if you like but will not discuss the specifics in an open forum.

However that said everything else you said is accurate. De regulation would seem to be a better option.

Edited October 26, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[fruittbatt]

"I cannot consider the 'Norm' here as being prostitution.

A fellow sees a woman he likes and they chat for a while - no money is discussed. If he wants to sleep with her, she may ask 'what will you give me? "

This is not the "norm" here.

So many people on this thread (perhaps virtually everyone) talks about the Thai sex industry as if it's confined to what they see on Sukhumvit Rd or in South Pattaya. (And indeed focus on the most ideal but certainly not universal versions of what goes on in those places).

The Thai sex industry is huge, multi-faceted, and heirarchial. To put it very simply (and simplistically): there is a level (like anywhere) that is for extremely high end consumers and it's all, for the most part, nice and shiny and no arguably no real harm done. There is a level that is horribly inhumane and unjust. The level that caters to most Farangs is above the median on that spectrum -- not at the very top but certainly far, far higher than the bottom and often in many ways different and more benign -- even positive -- than much of what caters to Thais. (Fun and relaxed interaction with customer. Choice of customers. Comfortable surroundings that are often far nicer than a person of his/her socio-economic status would enjoy. Travel and relatively exotic experiences. And so on...)

But not all Thai sex workers have that sort of experience. In fact only a small portion do.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Steele Joe, I am not disputing your analysis. There are certainly many types of bars, some catering to the poorest paid Burmese workers, some to farang or Thai or Japanese executives. But I do wonder if you have any statistics or insider knowledge to back your claim that the large majority of Thai sex-workers suffer injustice and inhumanity. Could you elaborate, please?

[SteeleJoe]

" Steele Joe, I am not disputing your analysis. There are certainly many types of bars, some catering to the poorest paid Burmese workers, some to farang or Thai or Japanese executives. But I do wonder if you have any statistics or insider knowledge to back your claim that the large majority of Thai sex-workers suffer injustice and inhumanity. Could you elaborate, please?"

I didn't make any such claim. I spoke of a very broad spectrum that ranges from inhumane and unjust to reltively benign and victimless. I pointed out that the version that most Farangs see, and keep referring to on this thread as if it were the universal experience of sex workers here quite simply is not.

It would be difficult to quantify such things even I had the sort of figures at hand that I once did (I suppose I could look when I return and see) and my insider knowledge is not inconsiderable but rather out of date, but I haven't attempted here to conjecture as to how many sex workers are in each strata as so on. I can however say that it is a small minority that caters to the Western clientele.

By the way, not to nitpick but I think it's important as it seems to be an indication of what I'm talking about: you keep talking about "bars". Lots of sex workers are not in bars. Many of them are in places that range from somewhat worse to much worse than a bar.

EDIT TO ADD:

I'll venture this: It's safe to say that the very worst experience (slavery and attendant violence) is shared by relatively few sex workers (but the key word is "relatively"). And I'd wager that a great number, not necessarily the majority but perhaps, are at least slightly above the median of that spectrum I refer to.

Edited October 26, 2012 by SteeleJoe

[fruittbatt]

" Steele Joe, I am not disputing your analysis. There are certainly many types of bars, some catering to the poorest paid Burmese workers, some to farang or Thai or Japanese executives. But I do wonder if you have any statistics or insider knowledge to back your claim that the large majority of Thai sex-workers suffer injustice and inhumanity. Could you elaborate, please?"

I didn't make any such claim. I spoke of a very broad spectrum that ranges from inhumane and unjust to reltively benign and victimless. I pointed out that the version that most Farangs see, and keep referring to on this thread as if it were the universal experience of sex workers here quite simply is not.

It would be difficult to quantify such things even I had the sort of figures at hand that I once did (I suppose I could look when I return and see) and my insider knowledge is not inconsiderable but rather out of date, but I haven't attempted here to conjecture as to how many sex workers are in each strata as so on. I can however say that it is a small minority that caters to the Western clientele.

By the way, not to nitpick but I think it's important as it seems to be an indication of what I'm talking about: you keep talking about "bars". Lots of sex workers are not in bars. Many of them are in places that range from somewhat worse to much worse than a bar.

EDIT TO ADD:

I'll venture this: It's safe to say that the very worst experience (slavery and attendant violence) is shared by relatively few sex workers (but the key word is "relatively"). And I'd wager that a great number, not necessarily the majority but perhaps, are at least slightly above the median of that spectrum I refer to.

You may be right, but without some relevant and recent figures, I can neither agree nor disagree. Regarding the use of the word "bars", this is a convenient shorthand commonly used in Thailand to describe any brothel whether alcohol is served or not.

[DrTuner]

Regarding the use of the word "bars", this is a convenient shorthand commonly used in Thailand to describe any brothel whether alcohol is served or not.

I associate brothel as a house with short time rooms, not the open air bars that don't have any rooms. The ones with rooms seem to be called "resorts" or "clubs".

[fruittbatt]

To get back on the topic...

I posted previously that most workers in farang-frequented bars in Thailand insist on condom use. Other posters pointed out correctly that this does not mean that the same practices and knowledge applies in bars where the customers are primarily Thai or Burmese men. However, I do know that at least one Thai sex-worker advocacy group distributes condoms and regularly spends time with the sex-workers in these bars. I assume that this informal peer education and friendship is helpful to the women who work in these bars.

The UN report also notes that many attempts to regulate the sex industry have unfortunate consequences. This is quite true. In the case of Vietnam, women who are sex-workers face jail terms and rehabilitation programs which teach them to do "honest" work. It is important to know that "honest" usually means underpaid and menial jobs such as working in a shoe factory or learning to sew for a multi-national mega-profitable sweat shop. This is totally exploitative of women's labour and is opportunistic punitive regulation at its worst. Women who have worked as sex-workers are often further "punished" in jails by sadistic staff. A friend spoke recently with a group of Vietnamese sex workers who reported being raped in jail, having finger-tips cut off, and being beaten.

Certainly laws which sanction such archaic and sadistic abuse need to be changed. However, de-regulation would seem to be a better option than legalisation, since legalisation allows for strict policing and so encourages the growth of a black market for sex when sex-workers are not allowed to work in "legal" houses.

Sorry but I don't agree with you. Condom usage in some sectors of the Farang/Thai market is rare and not the norm and I can prove it. I'll PM you if you like but will not discuss the specifics in an open forum.

However that said everything else you said is accurate. De regulation would seem to be a better option.

I don't understand why relevant information has to be kept under wraps unless it implicates powerful people. You can PM me the info if it is dangerous to share it publicly. Otherwise, please share with everyone, as it is relevant to the topic.

[SteeleJoe]

" Steele Joe, I am not disputing your analysis. There are certainly many types of bars, some catering to the poorest paid Burmese workers, some to farang or Thai or Japanese executives. But I do wonder if you have any statistics or insider knowledge to back your claim that the large majority of Thai sex-workers suffer injustice and inhumanity. Could you elaborate, please?"

I didn't make any such claim. I spoke of a very broad spectrum that ranges from inhumane and unjust to reltively benign and victimless. I pointed out that the version that most Farangs see, and keep referring to on this thread as if it were the universal experience of sex workers here quite simply is not.

It would be difficult to quantify such things even I had the sort of figures at hand that I once did (I suppose I could look when I return and see) and my insider knowledge is not inconsiderable but rather out of date, but I haven't attempted here to conjecture as to how many sex workers are in each strata as so on. I can however say that it is a small minority that caters to the Western clientele.

By the way, not to nitpick but I think it's important as it seems to be an indication of what I'm talking about: you keep talking about "bars". Lots of sex workers are not in bars. Many of them are in places that range from somewhat worse to much worse than a bar.

EDIT TO ADD:

I'll venture this: It's safe to say that the very worst experience (slavery and attendant violence) is shared by relatively few sex workers (but the key word is "relatively"). And I'd wager that a great number, not necessarily the majority but perhaps, are at least slightly above the median of that spectrum I refer to.

You may be right, but without some relevant and recent figures, I can neither agree nor disagree. Regarding the use of the word "bars", this is a convenient shorthand commonly used in Thailand to describe any brothel whether alcohol is served or not.

What points might I be wrong about or needs facts or figures to determine its validity?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

[55Jay]

(snip)

and bare back was the norm in those earlier days.

(snip)

You are right, Thailand would be different but it could work (rose tinted glasses on). The hurdle will be Thai Government and politicians going it alone to implement such a thing, which by default acknowledges the whole thing exists. That's not an easy pill to swallow.

In 'those days"? It seems bareback (BBFS) is still happening quite regularly...now...in the 3rd millenium, though perhaps it's not "the norm".

As for "implementing" a safe sex system, it's the punters' responsibility to get both themselves & their sex partners tested for HIV & other STI's!

There's no excuse, as testing costs peanuts in Siam & the country is very advanced medically in this regard, as stated in 2007 by Dr. HHH, a world renowned STI expert:

"...Thailand is a medically sophisticated country, and I cannot imagine that they use HIV tests with lower standards than in Europe and North America."

http://www.medhelp.o...eks/show/303077

http://www.eurekaler...--dhh030310.php

I think it was just an observation on how the casual sex scene has been changed to some degree by AIDS/HIV, not necessarily saying that everyone these days uses protection 100% of the time.

Before you snipped my comment out of context, the general point was condoms are quite easily considered to be standard operating procedure now days compared to 1960's, 70's and part of the 80's ~ after which AIDS/HIV started becoming more known.

Timeless however, is the effect of alcohol/drugs on good decision making for the working girl and the punter at the critical point of "passion" after a long night of partying/drinking and it ends up back in the flat/house/hotel room.

There are so many variables to these scenarios though and this is not the point of the article so I'll leave it there.

Thanks, regards,

Jay

Edited October 26, 2012 by 55Jay

[SteeleJoe]

Commonly used short hand? I don't know. Commonly used or not, it can not be accurately used to describe every type of commercial sex venue and I don't believe scholars of the subject would typically use it to to describe all places that sell sex.

A brothel -- as opposed to a bar -- comes in many shapes and forms but is often distinguished as a place where there are a number of small rooms where the sex worker awaits a series of customers (in one day's work) or else brings a series of customers who have selected her (not the other way around) from some viewing area.

If you think houses with short time rooms, open air bars, resorts and clubs cover the whole spectrum you are very, very misinformed.

EDIT: I seemed to have conflated posts from 2 different posters. My apologies. But I stand by the gist of my post.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Just thought of a simple difference between a "bar" and a "brothel": In most bars, the majority of customers do not engage in sexual activity with a sex worker on every visit. In a brothel, virtually all of them do. (ie In a bar, a customer may have no intention of taking a girl and be there to have fun or else not find someone to his liking but enjoy a few drinks there. A customer at a brothel goes there only to pay to have sex and will not be allowed to loiter there without doing so.)

But again -- there's more than just bars and brothels.

Edited October 26, 2012 by SteeleJoe

[chiangmaikelly]

To get back on the topic...

I posted previously that most workers in farang-frequented bars in Thailand insist on condom use. Other posters pointed out correctly that this does not mean that the same practices and knowledge applies in bars where the customers are primarily Thai or Burmese men. However, I do know that at least one Thai sex-worker advocacy group distributes condoms and regularly spends time with the sex-workers in these bars. I assume that this informal peer education and friendship is helpful to the women who work in these bars.

The UN report also notes that many attempts to regulate the sex industry have unfortunate consequences. This is quite true. In the case of Vietnam, women who are sex-workers face jail terms and rehabilitation programs which teach them to do "honest" work. It is important to know that "honest" usually means underpaid and menial jobs such as working in a shoe factory or learning to sew for a multi-national mega-profitable sweat shop. This is totally exploitative of women's labour and is opportunistic punitive regulation at its worst. Women who have worked as sex-workers are often further "punished" in jails by sadistic staff. A friend spoke recently with a group of Vietnamese sex workers who reported being raped in jail, having finger-tips cut off, and being beaten.

Certainly laws which sanction such archaic and sadistic abuse need to be changed. However, de-regulation would seem to be a better option than legalisation, since legalisation allows for strict policing and so encourages the growth of a black market for sex when sex-workers are not allowed to work in "legal" houses.

Sorry but I don't agree with you. Condom usage in some sectors of the Farang/Thai market is rare and not the norm and I can prove it. I'll PM you if you like but will not discuss the specifics in an open forum.

However that said everything else you said is accurate. De regulation would seem to be a better option.

I don't understand why relevant information has to be kept under wraps unless it implicates powerful people. You can PM me the info if it is dangerous to share it publicly. Otherwise, please share with everyone, as it is relevant to the topic.

The only thing we don't agree on is condom usage. I think it is not the norm for the industry both Thai and Farang. The only thing I would keep under wraps is the specifics of the industry but that information is also necessary to verify the absence of condom usage. But it is really a small point anyway. I won't argue it.

[oldthaihand99]

I posted previously that most workers in farang-frequented bars in Thailand insist on condom use. Other posters pointed out correctly that this does not mean that the same practices and knowledge applies in bars where the customers are primarily Thai or Burmese men. However, I do know that at least one Thai sex-worker advocacy group distributes condoms and regularly spends time with the sex-workers in these bars.

On forums i've read every farang who comments on the subject of how many Thai girls are willing to not use condoms says it is common for them not to. This applies to both sex workers & those met via online daying sites. Based on their own experiences and/or what other farang have told them.

OTOH a Thai government study or two i've read says some 95% of the ladies who work in sex venues claimed to have used them with their last customer.

Who to believe?

Edited October 26, 2012 by oldthaihand99

[chiangmaikelly]

I posted previously that most workers in farang-frequented bars in Thailand insist on condom use. Other posters pointed out correctly that this does not mean that the same practices and knowledge applies in bars where the customers are primarily Thai or Burmese men. However, I do know that at least one Thai sex-worker advocacy group distributes condoms and regularly spends time with the sex-workers in these bars.

On forums i've read every farang who comments on the subject of how many Thai girls are willing to not use condoms says it is common for them not to. This applies to both sex workers & those met via online daying sites. Based on their own experiences and/or what other farang have told them.

OTOH a Thai government study or two i've read says some 95% of the ladies who work in sex venues claimed to have used them with their last customer.

Who to believe?

Speak Thai and get outside of the tourist areas and start asking.

[oldthaihand99]

Particularly in Thailand since there are no laws are on the books for men who like to get off and make babies are hunted down and forced to pay financal support..

There are international laws re child support.

As for a hooker hunting the father down, how will she know who he is amongst her many customers? Does she have all their names and contact details, etc?

Even if she could narrow it to a few clients, how is she going to prove to a guy it's his baby? A DNA test would prove it, but this must be done after the child is born.

Until shen she has no grounds to get any financial support from him, as he has no proof the child is his.

During the early months of pregnancy, at least, she has the option to abort. If not in Thailand, elsewhere where it is legal.

Even after a DNA test proving a guy is the father, from what i've read he is by law only looking at child support payments of about 6000 baht ($200 US) a month.

However many Thai prostitutes make very good money by Thai standards, in some cases more than their farang "johns". So i wonder if even international law would require they make any payments in such cases.

Edited October 26, 2012 by oldthaihand99