Absolutely No Change In Cm Immigration's Need For Additional Proof With U.s. "income Letters"

[NancyL]

I don't know if I should post this NEWS FLASH! on either the CM or Visa forum. A certain new arrival, "Mr. Justice" has been spreading mis-information about this topic on both forums. His posts come close to "fear mongering", but I stop short of using those words. Maybe "pig-headed wrong" might be a better description of his posts.

Hubby went to CM Immigration today for his 11 am appointment for extension of his 12-month permission to remain due to retirement (AKA "extending his retirement visa") His freshly-minted "Income Letter" from the U.S. Consulate was accepted without any question. The only questions were related to his housing and he had a panic moment because he hadn't brought our lease agreement with him. He was asked "do you rent or own"? Answer: "rent" Question: "How much do you pay" which he answered. That was it, end of questioning.

He had his interview at 11 am, received his passport with 12-month extension just before noon. Returned at 1 pm to obtain a re-entry permit and left around 3 pm with a "just in case" re-entry permit in his passport -- always a good thing to have in case you have to leave the country quickly, without time to visit Immigration.

Oh, there was one little "kicker", but it was totally unrelated to any of the mis-information spewed by Mr. Justice.

Hubby's old passport expired and he was issued a new U.S. passport in CM on Sept 11 (in retrospect, probably not a good date to visit a U.S. consulate). Anyway, he wanted to transfer his visa from his expired passport to his new one. In the past, we'd heard "just take care of that when you do your visa extension". Hah!

No can do! At least not at 11 am. The lady who interviewed him (AKA as "the dragon lady" by those seeking a marriage extension -- but OK to us retirees) said she couldn't do it -- he had to go to desk 3 and all their queue tickets were gone at 8 am. So poor Hubby has to go back bright and early some morning to take care of this little chore. She also said there was a special form -- which interestingly doesn't have a TM number. It looks like something dreamed up by CM Immigration and exactly duplicates the information in the letter the U.S. Consulate gave him to give to Immigration to request a transfer of his visa.

Incidentally, he said at 11 am, every seat in the waiting room and neighboring coffee shop were full and another 20-30 people were standing around waiting. When he was digging thru paperwork to find the visa transfer form he stumbled on the previous day's "pre-queue" sign-in list. There were 94 people on the list by 8 am.

A few weeks before they started on-line appointments, someone on this forum noted that it already was like the Dehli rail station. The appointment system helped to clear that up a bit, but not now, not in high season. Soon it will be like the Black Hole of Calcutta.

[Ulysses G.]

I know someone who finally decided to apply for a retirement visa after living here many years without one. He said exactly the same thing: No Change In Cm Immigration's Need For Additional Proof With U.S. "Income Letters"

Edited October 25, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Mapguy]

Perhaps Immigration discovered Mr. Justice is a lawyer and provided "special service" !!

Edited October 25, 2012 by Mapguy

[hml367]

NancyL,

The form to transfer the stamp is available for download on the Immigration Department web site. Might be on the CM Imm web site also. I always look on the Imm Dept. site for forms. It doesn't seem to have a form number but it is the same form I used some years ago. I believe the form the Consulate provides is to support the request to transfer. The passport/visa holder would sign the form from Immigration.

MSPain

transferstamp.pdf

[mcgriffith]

Glad things worked out OK for Hubby, Nancy.

I was 100% certain of this outcome.

[circusman]

Perhaps this all can be put to bed now.

[Tywais]

Thanks for the update Nancy. I'm sure there were some gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands going on based on the 'other' report.

[elektrified]

"... He was asked "do you rent or own"? Answer: "rent" Question: "How much do you pay" which he answered. That was it, end of questioning..."

That is more than I have ever been asked in 5 years by the guy I get every time (the guy who sits at the back desk with the dark uniform and usually wears dark sunglasses).

[hellodolly]

Nancy

Thanks for the heads up on the proof of residency. I have to renew my passport next year and will have it with me when I go to get my retirement visa transferred. Might not ask foe it but better to be prepared. I learned that in scouts never went to collage other than a few courses here and there just for interest.

As far as Mr Justice goes every once in a while we get some one posting the same information. Usually they listen to reason and stop posting it. I would call him arrogant accusing people of insulting him before they actually did. Throwing around his degree and what he had done like as if it made him special a cut above others. Not sure what he thought but I know what I thought.

Edited October 25, 2012 by hellodolly

[mcgriffith]

NancyL,

The form to transfer the stamp is available for download on the Immigration Department web site. Might be on the CM Imm web site also. I always look on the Imm Dept. site for forms. It doesn't seem to have a form number but it is the same form I used some years ago. I believe the form the Consulate provides is to support the request to transfer. The passport/visa holder would sign the form from Immigration.

MSPain

Thanks for that.

I checked out the CM Imm site, and they have the identical form you provided. Addressed to Bangkok Immigration sub-division 2 just like your form.

Only difference was that I could only see it as a MS word file on CM Imm's site- your .pdf file is a much more usable document.

So I saved it in my Visa folder, and thanks again!

[Semper]

If there would be a change, would it be a concern to US nationals?

[vagabond48]

Since re-entry permit came up in conjunction with renewing our extension. I have a question which probably has an obvious answer. I usually get my yearly retirement extension about 3 weeks before it expires. If you were to get a re-entry permit shortly after getting the new extension but before the current extension expires, is the permit good from the day you get it until the expiration date of the new extension?

[mesquite]

Since re-entry permit came up in conjunction with renewing our extension. I have a question which probably has an obvious answer. I usually get my yearly retirement extension about 3 weeks before it expires. If you were to get a re-entry permit shortly after getting the new extension but before the current extension expires, is the permit good from the day you get it until the expiration date of the new extension?

Yes.

Edited October 25, 2012 by mesquite

[CBR250]

My previous (and first) retirement visa was for "multiple entry". I am getting the impression here that when I get my new one (soon, hopefully) that I will also need to get a re-entry stamp for any trips abroad during life of the visa. Is there a reason that CM does not issue a multiple entry retirement visa?

Also, as an Australian, I am planning to take a letter from the Consulate rather than lose money in a bank in Thailand for 3 months. From above posts it seems all is ok on this front, so thanks for the postings that reassure this is acceptable (especially the very articulate NancyL).

[elektrified]

My previous (and first) retirement visa was for "multiple entry". I am getting the impression here that when I get my new one (soon, hopefully) that I will also need to get a re-entry stamp for any trips abroad during life of the visa. Is there a reason that CM does not issue a multiple entry retirement visa?

Also, as an Australian, I am planning to take a letter from the Consulate rather than lose money in a bank in Thailand for 3 months. From above posts it seems all is ok on this front, so thanks for the postings that reassure this is acceptable (especially the very articulate NancyL).

C.M. does offer a multiple-entry "multiple re-entry permit". Same privileges you had before (come and go as you like during the validity of the visa extension). They offer single entry (1K THB) and multiple entry (I think 3.7K THB - could be wrong).

[hellodolly]

My previous (and first) retirement visa was for "multiple entry". I am getting the impression here that when I get my new one (soon, hopefully) that I will also need to get a re-entry stamp for any trips abroad during life of the visa. Is there a reason that CM does not issue a multiple entry retirement visa?

Also, as an Australian, I am planning to take a letter from the Consulate rather than lose money in a bank in Thailand for 3 months. From above posts it seems all is ok on this front, so thanks for the postings that reassure this is acceptable (especially the very articulate NancyL).

The letter from the consulate should do you nicely. How ever immigration does have the right to ask for proof in writing. They very seldom do but it can be a nucience as you will have to come back with it. And then you will probably not be asked for it.

I don't know about all the different countries but I do know the States do not ask for proof of income they just ask you how much you make a month and then ask you to raise your right hand and swear that what you have told them is the truth. Based on that you are issued your verification of income.

[mcgriffith]

My previous (and first) retirement visa was for "multiple entry". I am getting the impression here that when I get my new one (soon, hopefully) that I will also need to get a re-entry stamp for any trips abroad during life of the visa. Is there a reason that CM does not issue a multiple entry retirement visa?

Also, as an Australian, I am planning to take a letter from the Consulate rather than lose money in a bank in Thailand for 3 months. From above posts it seems all is ok on this front, so thanks for the postings that reassure this is acceptable (especially the very articulate NancyL).

A retirement visa (Non-Immigrant Category O-A) is issued outside of Thailand, by embassies and consulates of the Thai gov't.

What you get issued here in CM is an "extension to stay", for reason of retirement. There are subtle differences between the 2 in terms of qualifications.

The extension doesn't include any provision for exit and re-entry.

If you have no re-entry permit, and you exit Thailand- on your return you will find that your extension is now void.

You have the option of purchasing either a single use re-entry permit (1000 THB) or a multiple use re-entry permit (3800 THB), which keeps your extension valid should you want to exit and re-enter Thailand.

[elektrified]

...they just ask you how much you make a month and then ask you to raise your right hand and swear that what you have told them is the truth. Based on that you are issued your verification of income.

And one would be a FOOL to commit perjury (also known as false swearing or lying under oath) in front of a U.S. Federal Officer! That is how the U.S. got many, many people over the years who are sitting in prison now.

Edited October 26, 2012 by elektrified

[fester471]

I think a change maybe coming, last week did my 12 month extension with my Stat Dec from the Aust embassy.

The Immigration lady told me that next year they will also require some proof of banking records,.

[hellodolly]

...they just ask you how much you make a month and then ask you to raise your right hand and swear that what you have told them is the truth. Based on that you are issued your verification of income.

And one would be a FOOL to commit perjury (also known as false swearing or lying under oath) in front of a U.S. Federal Officer! That is how the U.S. got many, many people over the years who are sitting in prison now.

My money says there are a lot of fools around and thy are not in prison. They are walking around with a retirement visa here in Thailand. You must be new to Thailand.

edit

Was afraid the spelling police were going to get me.

Edited October 26, 2012 by hellodolly

[CMX]

I wish to add again that the 'extension' for us from the U.S. comes only after the original application made in the States to Thai officials. In addition to police certified letter, and a medical statement, one must submit notarized statements from institutions demonstrating secure streams of income equaling or greater than the minimum at that time. My own went to Chicago with embossed official letter-heads. For all I know, officials confirm these applications; anyway, there's that risk at first - and they have, by the way, possession of your passport.

I suppose that if the minimum income requirement is increased, even upon us already here (possible in Thailand, perhaps?), another round of discussions will be upon us. For now, in my experiences, it's same-same.

Edited October 26, 2012 by CMX

[harrry]

My previous (and first) retirement visa was for "multiple entry". I am getting the impression here that when I get my new one (soon, hopefully) that I will also need to get a re-entry stamp for any trips abroad during life of the visa. Is there a reason that CM does not issue a multiple entry retirement visa?

Also, as an Australian, I am planning to take a letter from the Consulate rather than lose money in a bank in Thailand for 3 months. From above posts it seems all is ok on this front, so thanks for the postings that reassure this is acceptable (especially the very articulate NancyL).

You will need to go to Bangkok to the Embassy for the letter if you are an Australian. It is a statuatory declaration and must be done in person. THe honorary consol in CM cannot issue this.

[mesquite]

...they just ask you how much you make a month and then ask you to raise your right hand and swear that what you have told them is the truth. Based on that you are issued your verification of income.

And one would be a FOOL to commit perjury (also known as false swearing or lying under oath) in front of a U.S. Federal Officer! That is how the U.S. got many, many people over the years who are sitting in prison now.

I agree but in cm many us citizens enjoying flaunting the law. It's a badge of honor with them. Not only this, but the us foreign financial account reporting requirements as well. They don't realize that they have lost control of their destiny. Their fate of possible prison rests solely in the hands of the us govt. "up to them."

[NancyL]

I wish to add again that the 'extension' for us from the U.S. comes only after the original application made in the States to Thai officials. In addition to police certified letter, and a medical statement, one must submit notarized statements from institutions demonstrating secure streams of income equaling or greater than the minimum at that time. My own went to Chicago with embossed official letter-heads. For all I know, officials confirm these applications; anyway, there's that risk at first - and they have, by the way, possession of your passport.

I suppose that if the minimum income requirement is increased, even upon us already here (possible in Thailand, perhaps?), another round of discussions will be upon us. For now, in my experiences, it's same-same.

You're describing the process of obtaining an O-A visa in one's home country and doing extensions here, using the "Income Letter" from the consulate. It is also possible to enter the country on 30-day visa exempt status, get an income letter, obtain a 90 day O visa for the purpose of retirement here in Chiang Mai and then extend the permission to stay for 12 months due to retirement during the last 30 days of that O visa, again using an income letter.

So, it's very possible to obtain what some people insist on calling a "retirement visa" without ever having to submit a police report or medical check, if it's all done here in Thailand.

[mesquite]

...they just ask you how much you make a month and then ask you to raise your right hand and swear that what you have told them is the truth. Based on that you are issued your verification of income.

And one would be a FOOL to commit perjury (also known as false swearing or lying under oath) in front of a U.S. Federal Officer! That is how the U.S. got many, many people over the years who are sitting in prison now.

My money says there are a lot of fools around and thy are not in prison.

For now.

[vagabond48]

My previous (and first) retirement visa was for "multiple entry". I am getting the impression here that when I get my new one (soon, hopefully) that I will also need to get a re-entry stamp for any trips abroad during life of the visa. Is there a reason that CM does not issue a multiple entry retirement visa?.

Simple economics. They charge 1000B for single entry and 3800B for the multi-entry.

[vagabond48]

...they just ask you how much you make a month and then ask you to raise your right hand and swear that what you have told them is the truth. Based on that you are issued your verification of income.

And one would be a FOOL to commit perjury (also known as false swearing or lying under oath) in front of a U.S. Federal Officer! That is how the U.S. got many, many people over the years who are sitting in prison now.

Based on the wording of the Consulate letter, are we committing perjury if we don't put the exact monthly amount. My monthly income is more than what I declare. The letter does not include the words "at least" after "I affirm that I receive in the amount of".

[amexpat]

Looks like you're going to jail.

[binjalin]

people can only be concerned, surely, if they do not meet the financial criteria

[mamborobert]

...they just ask you how much you make a month and then ask you to raise your right hand and swear that what you have told them is the truth. Based on that you are issued your verification of income.

And one would be a FOOL to commit perjury (also known as false swearing or lying under oath) in front of a U.S. Federal Officer! That is how the U.S. got many, many people over the years who are sitting in prison now.

Based on the wording of the Consulate letter, are we committing perjury if we don't put the exact monthly amount. My monthly income is more than what I declare. The letter does not include the words "at least" after "I affirm that I receive in the amount of".

If you receive $800 per month you can affirm that you receive $700, $701, $702 no problems, because you do receive that amount. What you cannot do is affirm that you receive $801 per month, that you do not receive.

Affirmations, oaths, declarations, statements, and statutory declarations can have different requirements for different laws (ie you cannot understate taxable income in the same way).

I actually witnessed a guy complain to a consul once that it was too easy for him to make a declaration and obtain a passport in the name of his brother (when the agency I then worked apprehended and detained him on another matter in a foreign land and the consul was called). The consul wanted to make sure that he heard the guy right and sure enough he carried on complaining that it should not be that easy to obtain a passport. The consul could not believe the guy. He wasn't a thick guy but just wanted to dump on the consul who was there to help him. As a result of his complaint which the consul dutifully recorded he was escorted on a flight and "met" on his return to the states. I've been away from that job for a few years now, he may have been released

Edited October 26, 2012 by mamborobert