Loan Sharks And Thai Household Debt

[Semper]

Thailand is still an under developed country.

This is one reason I live in Thailand. When/if it becomes like the West, I'm out of here.

[CPH]

Thailand is still an under developed country.

This is one reason I live in Thailand. When/if it becomes like the West, I'm out of here.

The same here. But I am not better of because there are loan sharks. That is why I think that system should be removed.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

It is as simple as that. Why do we as westerners suddenly defend loan sharks. We are all protected by the law in our old countries.

Actually not - outright loan sharking is very widely prevalent in most areas of the US, and they're much nastier about their recovery methods than here.

Not to mention the fact that morally the legal bankers/brokers etc often get away with much much worse.

Furthermore, the "payday loan" industry has been allowed to flourish both in the US and in the UK, and they are just as predatory on the poor and charge the same kind of rates, often hidden as flat fees.

And finally, just because we don't believe in something being regulated doesn't mean we're defending the perpetrators. I think sellers of alcohol selling to visibly poisoned known alcoholics "taam baap maak", but that doesn't mean I think that's something the government should spend time and money regulating. Same with kids riding on motorcycles, workers in the back of pickup trucks, motorcycle helmets etc.

People do get wiped out, people do die, IMO the world would be a better place if wild tigers were allowed to prey on humans in our city streets, keep the species fit.

[CPH]

It is as simple as that. Why do we as westerners suddenly defend loan sharks. We are all protected by the law in our old countries.

Actually not - outright loan sharking is very widely prevalent in most areas of the US, and they're much nastier about their recovery methods than here.

Not to mention the fact that morally the legal bankers/brokers etc often get away with much much worse.

Furthermore, the "payday loan" industry has been allowed to flourish both in the US and in the UK, and they are just as predatory on the poor and charge the same kind of rates, often hidden as flat fees.

And finally, just because we don't believe in something being regulated doesn't mean we're defending the perpetrators. I think sellers of alcohol selling to visibly poisoned known alcoholics "taam baap maak", but that doesn't mean I think that's something the government should spend time and money regulating. Same with kids riding on motorcycles, workers in the back of pickup trucks, motorcycle helmets etc.

People do get wiped out, people do die, IMO the world would be a better place if wild tigers were allowed to prey on humans in our city streets, keep the species fit.

It all comes down to why should we have a government and a society. Why not just live like in Somalia where the biggest gun is the rule. That type of society will allways exploit the poor and the weak. Is that the type of society we came here for. I do not think so. The question of freedom is often misunderstood as total chaos where the strongest gun rules. That is the opposite as freedom. I am not after some nany society, I just do not think the loan sharks provide any good to Thai society.

[chiangmaikelly]

It is as simple as that. Why do we as westerners suddenly defend loan sharks. We are all protected by the law in our old countries.

Actually not - outright loan sharking is very widely prevalent in most areas of the US, and they're much nastier about their recovery methods than here.

Not to mention the fact that morally the legal bankers/brokers etc often get away with much much worse.

Furthermore, the "payday loan" industry has been allowed to flourish both in the US and in the UK, and they are just as predatory on the poor and charge the same kind of rates, often hidden as flat fees.

And finally, just because we don't believe in something being regulated doesn't mean we're defending the perpetrators. I think sellers of alcohol selling to visibly poisoned known alcoholics "taam baap maak", but that doesn't mean I think that's something the government should spend time and money regulating. Same with kids riding on motorcycles, workers in the back of pickup trucks, motorcycle helmets etc.

People do get wiped out, people do die, IMO the world would be a better place if wild tigers were allowed to prey on humans in our city streets, keep the species fit.

It all comes down to why should we have a government and a society. Why not just live like in Somalia where the biggest gun is the rule. That type of society will allways exploit the poor and the weak. Is that the type of society we came here for. I do not think so. The question of freedom is often misunderstood as total chaos where the strongest gun rules. That is the opposite as freedom. I am not after some nany society, I just do not think the loan sharks provide any good to Thai society.

I think you have misunderstood the babysitting age and concept. I needed a babysitter when I couldn't fend for myself. Now I am an adult and I don't need my nanny anymore. There is a difference between anarchy and being allowed to decide where to borrow money and at what interest rate. I can also decide if I want to gamble or pay money for sex or eat a big mac.

[CPH]

It is as simple as that. Why do we as westerners suddenly defend loan sharks. We are all protected by the law in our old countries.

Actually not - outright loan sharking is very widely prevalent in most areas of the US, and they're much nastier about their recovery methods than here.

Not to mention the fact that morally the legal bankers/brokers etc often get away with much much worse.

Furthermore, the "payday loan" industry has been allowed to flourish both in the US and in the UK, and they are just as predatory on the poor and charge the same kind of rates, often hidden as flat fees.

And finally, just because we don't believe in something being regulated doesn't mean we're defending the perpetrators. I think sellers of alcohol selling to visibly poisoned known alcoholics "taam baap maak", but that doesn't mean I think that's something the government should spend time and money regulating. Same with kids riding on motorcycles, workers in the back of pickup trucks, motorcycle helmets etc.

People do get wiped out, people do die, IMO the world would be a better place if wild tigers were allowed to prey on humans in our city streets, keep the species fit.

It all comes down to why should we have a government and a society. Why not just live like in Somalia where the biggest gun is the rule. That type of society will allways exploit the poor and the weak. Is that the type of society we came here for. I do not think so. The question of freedom is often misunderstood as total chaos where the strongest gun rules. That is the opposite as freedom. I am not after some nany society, I just do not think the loan sharks provide any good to Thai society.

I think you have misunderstood the babysitting age and concept. I needed a babysitter when I couldn't fend for myself. Now I am an adult and I don't need my nanny anymore. There is a difference between anarchy and being allowed to decide where to borrow money and at what interest rate. I can also decide if I want to gamble or pay money for sex or eat a big mac.

I am sure you do not need a Nanny, you are most propably long over that age and you have a good school background and is well informed. I am not so sure the same goes for young Thai people. They are much more naive and cannot allways see the long term consequenses of their actions.

[chiangmaikelly]

Actually not - outright loan sharking is very widely prevalent in most areas of the US, and they're much nastier about their recovery methods than here.

Not to mention the fact that morally the legal bankers/brokers etc often get away with much much worse.

Furthermore, the "payday loan" industry has been allowed to flourish both in the US and in the UK, and they are just as predatory on the poor and charge the same kind of rates, often hidden as flat fees.

And finally, just because we don't believe in something being regulated doesn't mean we're defending the perpetrators. I think sellers of alcohol selling to visibly poisoned known alcoholics "taam baap maak", but that doesn't mean I think that's something the government should spend time and money regulating. Same with kids riding on motorcycles, workers in the back of pickup trucks, motorcycle helmets etc.

People do get wiped out, people do die, IMO the world would be a better place if wild tigers were allowed to prey on humans in our city streets, keep the species fit.

It all comes down to why should we have a government and a society. Why not just live like in Somalia where the biggest gun is the rule. That type of society will allways exploit the poor and the weak. Is that the type of society we came here for. I do not think so. The question of freedom is often misunderstood as total chaos where the strongest gun rules. That is the opposite as freedom. I am not after some nany society, I just do not think the loan sharks provide any good to Thai society.

I think you have misunderstood the babysitting age and concept. I needed a babysitter when I couldn't fend for myself. Now I am an adult and I don't need my nanny anymore. There is a difference between anarchy and being allowed to decide where to borrow money and at what interest rate. I can also decide if I want to gamble or pay money for sex or eat a big mac.

I am sure you do not need a Nanny, you are most propably long over that age and you have a good school background and is well informed. I am not so sure the same goes for young Thai people. They are much more naive and cannot allways see the long term consequenses of their actions.

I knew I had heard that before. Kipling I believe.

Take up the White Man’s burden-

Have done with childish days-

The lightly proffered laurel,

The easy, ungrudged praise.

Comes now, to search your manhood

Through all the thankless years,

Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,

The judgment of your peers!

[inthepink]

Had a friend whose father was a loan shark, actually rode int he car one afternoon while she collected from clients.

certainly wouldn't call him scum he was a very nice and kind man offering my a bed in his home and food from his table.

whether or not his job is ethical well i don't know the circumstances of his customers or his business to comment.

in the regards to the situation you described did they have access to cheaper debt? what were there alternatives? to be frank if i had to choose between a childs education and poor terms of debt, providing a can service the debt i would choose the debt any day.

in Australia, unsecured loans are around 14%, credit cards charge around 20% and these are for people who are accepted by banks for debt. if you have to go to a non-bank lender you can get screwed much much harder.

the Thai's who borrow from loan sharks should be looking at banks first if they can get approved, if they cannot get approved what solution do you suggest outside of a loan shark?

Maybe he is not so kind and friendly if people can not pay. The problem in all this is that loans in the grey and black market should not be available at all. People should be protected from loan sharks by the law and that law should be enforced. Then people would not be able to take up loans they cannot afford, because if they could afford the loan they would most propably be able to get a loan in a bank. It is as simple as that. Why do we as westerners suddenly defend loan sharks. We are all protected by the law in our old countries.

50% of the Thai economy is black or gray market economy.

Do you have any reliable sources to back up this statement or do you just like to pull figures out of thin air and present them as fact?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

> 50% of the Thai economy is black or gray market economy.

Do you have any reliable sources to back up this statement or do you just like to pull figures out of thin air and present them as fact?

Perhaps he means to say a cash economy, one that isn't taxed, which may still be an exaggeration but IMO perhaps not.

I don't think the government even tries to collect tax in any kind of equitable way, as long as they're getting enough I reckon they don't care.

[nong38]

If you need a loan, first stop the bank, if you have collateral, If not then you look else where, the govt figure I have seen is that its expected to be 15%. But like the Govt says prostitution is illegal, so is the local loan rates, its convenient to turn a blind eye, you cannot blame them, let society take care of itself, then we dont have to!

The bar girl situ is almost the same, people need more money then they currently have coming in and what does the Govt do, raise the daily rate to 300bts, for some, I bet a lot thought it applied to them, now it will not be fully implemented until after the next election.

Just to remind everyone you cannot cherry pick what you like and do like either here or in our country of birth, weigh it up and make the choice, somehow the locals seem unable to weigh things up correctly, well, in our eyes anyway.

[mjj]

Also, school fees come around what, twice a year? Didn't they know it was coming?

The world is not fair, never has been, never will be. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. I think we are back to the Kipling poem.

[chiangmaikelly]

Had a friend whose father was a loan shark, actually rode int he car one afternoon while she collected from clients.

certainly wouldn't call him scum he was a very nice and kind man offering my a bed in his home and food from his table.

whether or not his job is ethical well i don't know the circumstances of his customers or his business to comment.

in the regards to the situation you described did they have access to cheaper debt? what were there alternatives? to be frank if i had to choose between a childs education and poor terms of debt, providing a can service the debt i would choose the debt any day.

in Australia, unsecured loans are around 14%, credit cards charge around 20% and these are for people who are accepted by banks for debt. if you have to go to a non-bank lender you can get screwed much much harder.

the Thai's who borrow from loan sharks should be looking at banks first if they can get approved, if they cannot get approved what solution do you suggest outside of a loan shark?

Maybe he is not so kind and friendly if people can not pay. The problem in all this is that loans in the grey and black market should not be available at all. People should be protected from loan sharks by the law and that law should be enforced. Then people would not be able to take up loans they cannot afford, because if they could afford the loan they would most propably be able to get a loan in a bank. It is as simple as that. Why do we as westerners suddenly defend loan sharks. We are all protected by the law in our old countries.

50% of the Thai economy is black or gray market economy.

Do you have any reliable sources to back up this statement or do you just like to pull figures out of thin air and present them as fact?

If you want to disprove a claim all you have to do is find a legitimate source that says the gray market is some other number. Be my guest...

[payak]

funny how people keep talking about thais being so bad with money when its them getting monthly payments from most on here, now thats some smart people.

not to mention the houses and cars they recieve, phones and laptops, the list goes on, all it takes is some sweet talk, all BS of coarse, a few handsome man comments and she's in your pocket.

now remind me who is stupid with money.

[McMagus]

Been some interesting responses, thank you one and all. I found out why he went to a loan shark .... he apparently was cleaned up by a taxi on his way to work and suffered some serious head injuries....medical expenses I suspect.

'Such is life'.

Ned Kelly

[barefoot1988]

Been some interesting responses, thank you one and all. I found out why he went to a loan shark .... he apparently was cleaned up by a taxi on his way to work and suffered some serious head injuries....medical expenses I suspect.

'Such is life'.

Ned Kelly

must have some serious head injuries to be even able to go to the loan shark or the thought of it. not sure what advice to get him out of the spiral debt due to medical fees but maybe wearing a proper helmet, proper insurance and riding defensively would help.

[Semper]

Been some interesting responses, thank you one and all. I found out why he went to a loan shark .... he apparently was cleaned up by a taxi on his way to work and suffered some serious head injuries....medical expenses I suspect.

'Such is life'.

Ned Kelly

must have some serious head injuries to be even able to go to the loan shark or the thought of it. not sure what advice to get him out of the spiral debt due to medical fees but maybe wearing a proper helmet, proper insurance and riding defensively would help.

I thought that hospital bills was 30 Baht for a Thai.

[simple1]

Been some interesting responses, thank you one and all. I found out why he went to a loan shark .... he apparently was cleaned up by a taxi on his way to work and suffered some serious head injuries....medical expenses I suspect.

'Such is life'.

Ned Kelly

must have some serious head injuries to be even able to go to the loan shark or the thought of it. not sure what advice to get him out of the spiral debt due to medical fees but maybe wearing a proper helmet, proper insurance and riding defensively would help.

I thought that hospital bills was 30 Baht for a Thai.

True for government hospitals, but some Thais are in fear of the treatment at government hospitals when needing trauma care for the things such as head injuries. As did a family member whose family borrowed money for treatment at a better equipped hospital.

[patongphil]

30 Baht for a 3 hour queue and a panadol!!!

[chiangmaikelly]

30 Baht for a 3 hour queue and a panadol!!!

Thai older Thai man that I know used the 30 baht for an operation for stomach cancer (removed large part of intestine) but had to use his own money for the chemo therapy after the operation for a year.

Edited November 3, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[patongphil]

30 Baht for a 3 hour queue and a panadol!!!

Thai older Thai man that I know used the 30 baht for an operation for stomach cancer (removed large part of intestine) but had to use his own money for the chemo therapy after the operation for a year.

Go to any smaller town in Isaan and you see line and lines of people outside the many clinics and virtually no-one at the flash hospitals.

I wonder why??

[chiangmaikelly]

30 Baht for a 3 hour queue and a panadol!!!

Thai older Thai man that I know used the 30 baht for an operation for stomach cancer (removed large part of intestine) but had to use his own money for the chemo therapy after the operation for a year.

Go to any smaller town in Isaan and you see line and lines of people outside the many clinics and virtually no-one at the flash hospitals.

I wonder why??

Because the care at the Thai government hospitals is free or cheap and the same doctors work at both hospitals.

[exeter]

I think you will find the 30 bts fee is not collected anymore as it was costing more in manpower/paperwork to administer, now look at the queues and you see why people go the hospital if its free and maybe they have air con ( free). Somwwhere to go for the day, probably everyday.

[h90]

30 Baht for a 3 hour queue and a panadol!!!

Thai older Thai man that I know used the 30 baht for an operation for stomach cancer (removed large part of intestine) but had to use his own money for the chemo therapy after the operation for a year.

actually the get the chemo therapy for free, just thanks to our great government there are no funds for the medicine, so the hospital would give it for free if they would have it.

[nong38]

Last time I went to the hospital for eye exam I was charged 50bts for BP check, weight and sight evaluation and then I had to pay for the photos on an impressive bit of kit ( I remember seeing "Carl Zeis") on it so I know it was the business ( did I spell the name right?). I think the pictures and the consultation then cost me 750 bts.

Just a point of information there, how did we get from Thai household debt down the hospital, samlor?

[Heng]

Because the care at the Thai government hospitals is free or cheap and the same doctors work at both hospitals.

There's a two tier system in a lot of Thai government hospitals. A pretty clear example would be Siriraj Hospital and the 'paid' VIP wing of Siriraj Hospital (that has the mall like atmosphere and guards that don't even let folks from the 'general population' wing walk around in). If you want to use your gov't workers benefits, teachers benefits, military (as in rank and file.... not colonels and generals, etc.), social security, etc. you're in the 'economy' wing. That means you can go to the hospital for your treatment by their schedule which often doesn't mesh with how serious your condition is. If you are privately insured or self insured (cash paying), THEN you can pick your dates to a much greater extent. Another one on the topic of cancer.... the National Cyclotron and CT/PET Centre in the Laksi area. Technically a gov't hospital, but you will rarely see any commoners there. It basically just serves patients that are sent there from all of the 'better people' hospitals in Thailand who know better than thinking a '30 baht political promise' can be exchanged for a $2 or $3 thousand dollar scan that can more accurately manage (or rule out) cancer situations rather than the 'textbook' methods used for the masses. Have seen a couple of relatives 'beat' (or at least are living in remission) cancer and I'm relatively sure that prayer or any 'higher' power (other than money) had very little to do with it.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Heng

[ThaiRich]

Its because they have no choice

your talking about people in villages i presume

Some of them have 10 - 20 rai or more & can make a living pending on crop success

Then theres the ones who had but due to failures had to sell of slowly till only the house block left HENCE the only thing they have left will be morgaged for a car so they can go after that allusive big money making out of the ute business - not.

So when thats not making money the need for the hock shops & gold brokers are required ALL BY CHOICE & certainly not to a foriegners likeing

Everything here is a comodity to them (not saying all) including your house & the nice jewelry / motorbike ect

BLOOD IS THICKER THAN WATER

PS . Once read an article on hear as to what number are u on the list (regularly stir the wife up)

need a big TV, need a new mobile phone, need a new motorbike, need a new car, everything better and bigger than the neighbor and than bankrupt.....

.....and don't forget the gambling with borrowed money. I know several who have lost their motorbikes, cars, land etc. just to try to win back the money they've lost on gambling.

For some reason, they can't grasp the first rule of gambling: Don't bet more money than you can afford to lose.

Yes, this is sad but true. I have a British friend whose wife let the car get reposed, sold the motorcycle, took out a loan on the house he bought her and didn't pay her sons school fees for 4 years. It's all gone, everything he had bought to try to give this Thai woman a better life. The casinos in Poi Pet were more important to her than stability and security for her sons.

[Heng]

Common sense can't be taught (or rather it CAN but some segments of the population seem to be immune to these lessons), or these folks would get it after the first 2-3 banks tell them 'sorry, but you aren't qualified to borrow money.' Not sure how a much clearer message could be sent to these people who then turn to poor finance companies (like TV's beloved Aeon, Umay, Capital OK, etc.), and then the private lenders. Perhaps brighter signs and embarrassing sound effects would be more useful, because 'not passing' credit checks apparently isn't enough.

[Heng]

Also do TV posters and perhaps foreigners in general have disproportionate exposure to 'Thais who have issues with debt/budgeting/living within their means/think that the future is 2 days from now/etc?' It's fairly well documented in mostly 'locked' threads.

[nong38]

Common sense can't be taught (or rather it CAN but some segments of the population seem to be immune to these lessons), or these folks would get it after the first 2-3 banks tell them 'sorry, but you aren't qualified to borrow money.' Not sure how a much clearer message could be sent to these people who then turn to poor finance companies (like TV's beloved Aeon, Umay, Capital OK, etc.), and then the private lenders. Perhaps brighter signs and embarrassing sound effects would be more useful, because 'not passing' credit checks apparently isn't enough.

I have found that in Thailand BORROW means GIVE.

[Heng]

Common sense can't be taught (or rather it CAN but some segments of the population seem to be immune to these lessons), or these folks would get it after the first 2-3 banks tell them 'sorry, but you aren't qualified to borrow money.' Not sure how a much clearer message could be sent to these people who then turn to poor finance companies (like TV's beloved Aeon, Umay, Capital OK, etc.), and then the private lenders. Perhaps brighter signs and embarrassing sound effects would be more useful, because 'not passing' credit checks apparently isn't enough.

I have found that in Thailand BORROW means GIVE.

Not I. If that were true I wouldn't be laughing most of the time.