asiawatcher Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 So where is the need to transport large numbers of passengers at a relatively high speed but slower than air travel? Or is there a need for China to sell off some very expensive technology to any mug silly enough to buy it? Encase it in the sweeteners of loans and infrastructure rip-offs, and the ephemeral promise of "modernisation" and PTP won't be able to resist. Or the amount of money the PTP(or Dems etc) will be able to skim from the contracts. You can hear the heavy breathing in parliament and watching the 'ministers' salivating already and Thaksin screaming from Dubai - "Ve must not loose ze war! Ve must remain in power at any cost" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyLew Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) What a complete and utter waste of time and money Money can be way better spent on feeding and educating the poor The last thing this country needs is a nothing multi billion baht project where much od the funds gets syphoned off into some <Snip!> pocket. If they do go ahead with it ... I hope the people running the trains do better than those in China .. see photos .. http://www.time.com/...2296298,00.html or google "high speed train crash in China" When corrupt people build things or when they run things ... disasters are always soon to follow Edited November 21, 2012 by metisdead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tingtongfarang Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 In a previous life i used to be a regular high speed train passenger, Three times per week frankfurt-berlin ICE and maybe five times per year on the french TGV, After a few years i gave up with the ICE route because flying was cheaper...the parking at frankfurt airport was infact more expencive than the return flight, I never felt relaxed on high speed trains as it gave me too much time to think about what if! and so often they broke down arriving hours later than planed, The duetsche bahn always gave me a gut schein of the value of the journey if more than 20 minutes late and a taxi to my destination....at one time i had collected 12 gut schein I have also tried the chinese version and it was far less comfortable or civillised than both the ICE and TGV. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratcatcher Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 An interesting article: http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-high-speed-rail-dilemma-2011-1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Off topic posts have been removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombkk Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 What a complete and utter waste of time and moneyMoney can be way better spent on feeding and educating the poor The last thing this country needs is a nothing multi billion baht project where much od the funds gets syphoned off into some <Snip!> pocket. If they do go ahead with it ... I hope the people running the trains do better than those in China .. see photos .. http://www.time.com/...2296298,00.html or google "high speed train crash in China" When corrupt people build things or when they run things ... disasters are always soon to follow What‘s your point here? Yes, there was a spectacular high-speed train crash and China. And one in Germany I am aware of. There have been plane crashes, and buses have been roumoured to be in accidents. How many people die in car accidents every day? Are you saying we should go back to passenger transportation by donkey only? Apart from being safe, this would sure feed the poor, right? Sent from my LG-P698f using Thaivisa Connect App 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Why is China in favour of Thailand to develop a high-speed rail link? It would be a passenger line, so not to boost exports. To boost Chinese tourism to Thailand - why is that in Chinese interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tingtongfarang Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 What a complete and utter waste of time and money Money can be way better spent on feeding and educating the poor The last thing this country needs is a nothing multi billion baht project where much od the funds gets syphoned off into some <Snip!> pocket. If they do go ahead with it ... I hope the people running the trains do better than those in China .. see photos .. http://www.time.com/...2296298,00.html or google "high speed train crash in China" When corrupt people build things or when they run things ... disasters are always soon to follow The german ICE had some spectacular crashes also, I remember seeing tv reports that haunted me every time i got on one, On at least two journeys i was late because someone decided to end their life by standing spread eagled infront of it,Then i learned they have a special hospital for the drivers who need to recover from shock, Some never drive a train again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 You can't just build an ultra heavyweight Highspeed bullet train and run it on such a fragile infrastructure tracks which can break any minute. It's like putting a heavyweight elephant on those shaky wooden Amazon bridges<- what would happen if the elephant steps on that bridge…???? Do you get the idea??? And what would happen to the train along with its passengers riding in insufficient outdated railroad tracks that can break any second?? Do you get the idea???? Of course Those Chinese business men engage Thailand into their Highspeed train idea, because they reap the benefits along with their political counterparts to share corruption money behind closed doors, as long as it is the customer that suffers… You have to remember the people the Chinese are dealing with are also Chinese/Thai i.e Shinawatra clan. Sister, ex-wife, brother in law, son, daughter, cousin, nephew, They speak the same language,MONEY. I understand that very well. The majority of High status Thai Chinese brought this mess of "investing cheap and sell to a high price to the stupid or foreigners who can't speak and understand Thai anyway, to Thailand in the first place... I see a lot of similarities in communism and Thai politics that serve the purpose of saving face… I really think you might want to look at the plan before you knock it. They are planning on building new rails for high speed trains. China probably already has the trains. I believe they are also planning on double tracking it and try to stay out of city's. Well that was the plan a few years back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Of course they are keen. Not only will they get billions in above and below the table deals, but they'll also be able to send their products down here more efficiently. It's a win win situation for the Chinese.... for Thailand however.... well experience tells us that even when the project finally finishes years overdue, there will still be a big mess due to shoddy workmanship, not enough train carriages, and huge poorly placed/constructed stations etc. I also wonder how many people a speeding train flying through the Thai countryside is going to kill when you consider the carnage that occurs from trains travelling at walking speed. I can see now drink old Somchai jumping the safety fence trying to get home and then...SPLAT! And you forget the natural disaster, too, floods, tsunamis, earthquake, everything can shatter Thailand's fragile infrastructure… You forgot run for your life the sky is falling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 There seem to be some misconceptions here. The high-speed train will not run on the existing tracks; those tracks are old and there is no question they need to be replaced. Secondly, this idea did not just come up now. I have seen different plans proposed to the Thai government, and that was two years ago. They included elevated tracks and other measures to prevent people and wildlife getting hurt. The OP also mentions the standard gauge, which is important for connectivity. Some Thai government officials seem to favour the meter gauge. Sent from my LG-P698f using Thaivisa Connect App You obviously don't know where you are. You are on Thai Visa and we don't want to hear reality. Actually did the original plans include a line to Chiang Mai? I was under the impression that the plan for China was to eventually connect Singapore to Peking by high speed rail built as you have described it. What would China gain by building a high speed rail from Bangkok to Chiang Mai? Seems like a lot of money for a dead end railway. At least it would be a dead end for China. I am not sure but wasn't it shown that the meter gauge would not be suitable for High sped trains. Can't quite remember that point. But you are rite there was not a unified stand on the measurement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 An interesting article: http://www.businessi...-dilemma-2011-1 Interesting article and it has some good points in it. How ever it was completely about China and we are in Thailand. A country that badly needs to upgrade it's infrastructure. So why not go for what we know will eventually happen. Think of the value to manufacturers they could build there plants in flood free areas and still get there product to market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 What a complete and utter waste of time and money Money can be way better spent on feeding and educating the poor The last thing this country needs is a nothing multi billion baht project where much od the funds gets syphoned off into some <Snip!> pocket. If they do go ahead with it ... I hope the people running the trains do better than those in China .. see photos .. http://www.time.com/...2296298,00.html or google "high speed train crash in China" When corrupt people build things or when they run things ... disasters are always soon to follow The german ICE had some spectacular crashes also, I remember seeing tv reports that haunted me every time i got on one, On at least two journeys i was late because someone decided to end their life by standing spread eagled infront of it,Then i learned they have a special hospital for the drivers who need to recover from shock, Some never drive a train again. Back in Canada we had some spectacular train wrecks and they were not even rapid trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toenail Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Foreign aid like this, such as building a railroad, is more helpful to a country than giving military training or weapaons (which the USA has done - my country). I hope it is Chinese experts and workers building it or the speed train will take half a century to complete (it the Thais are involved) and it will be of poor quality since the governemnt officials and contractors will have pocketed most of the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiangmaikelly Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Foreign aid like this, such as building a railroad, is more helpful to a country than giving military training or weapaons (which the USA has done - my country). I hope it is Chinese experts and workers building it or the speed train will take half a century to complete (it the Thais are involved) and it will be of poor quality since the governemnt officials and contractors will have pocketed most of the money. Foreign aid like this, such as building a railroad, is more helpful to a country than giving military training or weapaons (which the USA has done - my country). I hope it is Chinese experts and workers building it or the speed train will take half a century to complete (it the Thais are involved) and it will be of poor quality since the governemnt officials and contractors will have pocketed most of the money. The airport that will be used to transport many of the supplies for the new high speed train and the deep water port that created the industrial infrastructure to now require a high speed rail system was built by the American military in wartime in Thailand. Heck the fact that Thailand remained free and not an economic garbage dump like Burma, Laos and Cambodia has to do with the military support of the nations of the SEATO treaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOODLOVER Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Disposable bullets trains from Shina. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/8658959/Anger-in-China-as-bodies-fall-from-carriages-during-train-crash-clean-up.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rheinwiese Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Here we go again trying to run before they can walk! I really would like to see a good rail system put in place, but first I would like to see the infrastructure built to an acceptable standard, the present rail lines cannot cope with trains traveling at 30 mph let alone a high speed train. The cost of a first class ticket from Chiangmai to BKK is around 1900 Bt and is taking over 12 hrs (15 last time I used it) you can fly for a few 100 Bt more! I can't see them keeping the price competitive enough to warrant people using it. It will be handy for fake imports and the like that's about it! In China prices for high-speed train tickets are about 3 times those for standard trains. This has already led to high vacancy rates on many high-speed trains lines, leaving slower trains packed with passengers without any seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Why is China in favour of Thailand to develop a high-speed rail link? It would be a passenger line, so not to boost exports. To boost Chinese tourism to Thailand - why is that in Chinese interest? The Chinese government proposed financing/building a high-speed freight-line, from southern-China to Singapore, which was necessarily going to have to run via Thailand. The Thai minister thinks this is because they want to obtain goods from Thailand more-easily. The Thai government want to wrap-in their unfunded hopes for a local high-speed passenger-network. But that was only a long-running 'pre-election promise', so forget about it ! Meanwhile nothing actually happens, until the brown-envelopes have been negotiated & delivered, this is still at the 'Hot-Air stage', and as the Chinese plans advance, and after construction starts in Laos, it will become less-and-less likely that the Thais can persuade them to run the route via NW-Thailand & Chiang Mai, thus delivering a few high-speed trains to anywhere near to Chiang Mai. The window-of-opportunity is closing, while the usual poo-yais prattle on, about how desperate China is to receive exports from Thailand ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I'm sure it will be known as the Hom Mali I Express Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansnl Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 China's wishes to "help" build HSL lines from and to China serve only strategic purposes; commercial and military! Will there be benefits for Thailand? Maybe, a two hour journey from Bangkok to Khon Kaen or a 3-hour to Chiang Mai@ 250 km/h would be nice, but all depends on the price of tickets. Would be a better deal as flying, timewise that is. The upgrading of the railways in Cambodia is goiimg very well, thank you. Birma is considering to go the same way. Both without the help of China! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoutsider Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Yes he wants to get the Chinese Military down to all the Asian countries as quick as possible if the S**t hits the fan. Or it may be for peacefull trading and people moving. Will just have to sit back and wait. Get paro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayday49 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 The first link in the new rail system will be from Bangkok to Rayong. I just wanted to write that so next year you will all know who knew first. Actually a HIGH speed rail system would be more economically perceptive as destinations into Viet Nam and Cambodia...can anyone say ASEAN? China is a sleuth and money wasting Yellow Peril from the old Days and destin to run parallel to the mind altering mathematics of buying Rice at higher than rice commodities in a Global Market Place, and then having an Expectation that stale crop is worth AAA value..........WHAT ARE THESE BUFFONS AND LACKEYS SMOKING..........recap...why buy on the promise that chineese technology is so Bullet Proof? They do not even know that choking off the Mae hong affects three continents.......Full Stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Disposable bullets trains from Shina. http://www.telegraph...h-clean-up.html Some how I don't think any railroad in the world makes plans for lightning hitting it's trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombkk Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 There seem to be some misconceptions here. The high-speed train will not run on the existing tracks; those tracks are old and there is no question they need to be replaced. Secondly, this idea did not just come up now. I have seen different plans proposed to the Thai government, and that was two years ago. They included elevated tracks and other measures to prevent people and wildlife getting hurt. The OP also mentions the standard gauge, which is important for connectivity. Some Thai government officials seem to favour the meter gauge. Sent from my LG-P698f using Thaivisa Connect App You obviously don't know where you are. You are on Thai Visa and we don't want to hear reality. Actually did the original plans include a line to Chiang Mai? I was under the impression that the plan for China was to eventually connect Singapore to Peking by high speed rail built as you have described it. What would China gain by building a high speed rail from Bangkok to Chiang Mai? Seems like a lot of money for a dead end railway. At least it would be a dead end for China. I am not sure but wasn't it shown that the meter gauge would not be suitable for High sped trains. Can't quite remember that point. But you are rite there was not a unified stand on the measurement. Yes, there was a plan that included Chiang Mai. I saw a huge Southeast/East Asia plan with a connected railway system across many countries. Connectivity is the current buzzword. China has high-speed trains from Shanghai to Hong Kong. I saw long queues at the ticket counters, so people are using them. A three-hour trip from Bangkok to Chiang Mai would attract me, as it would be faster than by plane (considering the check-in time, waiting for the baggage, trip to/from the airports). But these are just my feelings, I not privy to the financial plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellodolly Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 The first link in the new rail system will be from Bangkok to Rayong. I just wanted to write that so next year you will all know who knew first. Actually a HIGH speed rail system would be more economically perceptive as destinations into Viet Nam and Cambodia...can anyone say ASEAN? China is a sleuth and money wasting Yellow Peril from the old Days and destin to run parallel to the mind altering mathematics of buying Rice at higher than rice commodities in a Global Market Place, and then having an Expectation that stale crop is worth AAA value..........WHAT ARE THESE BUFFONS AND LACKEYS SMOKING..........recap...why buy on the promise that chineese technology is so Bullet Proof? They do not even know that choking off the Mae hong affects three continents.......Full Stop. Yes he wants to get the Chinese Military down to all the Asian countries as quick as possible if the S**t hits the fan. Or it may be for peacefull trading and people moving. Will just have to sit back and wait. Get paro It is funny when you stop and think about it. How many trains would it require to move the Chinese army. Would they have room for them all on the track do they have enough high speed trains in China to do it? Some how I think it would be a disaster for them not only could they not move that many troops but it would take only one rocket to stop the whole Chinese military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOODLOVER Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Disposable bullets trains from Shina. http://www.telegraph...h-clean-up.html Some how I don't think any railroad in the world makes plans for lightning hitting it's trains. Actually they do but still have accidents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbamboo Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 China wants a direct rail link through SE Asia to Singapore much as the Japandeses once did from Singapore to Burma.... though hopefully for different reasons! They will decide the the route as the existing line from BKK to CM would be left to operate separated whilst the high speed line was being built. It may not be what the Thais want but China will prevail if it is ever going to be built anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesGrady Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Never gonna happen. Never in the world , has a single Railway made a quantum leap from running trains at 80 kph ( as in Thailand ) to 300 kph . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soomak Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Here we go again trying to run before they can walk! I really would like to see a good rail system put in place, but first I would like to see the infrastructure built to an acceptable standard, the present rail lines cannot cope with trains traveling at 30 mph let alone a high speed train. The cost of a first class ticket from Chiangmai to BKK is around 1900 Bt and is taking over 12 hrs (15 last time I used it) you can fly for a few 100 Bt more! I can't see them keeping the price competitive enough to warrant people using it. It will be handy for fake imports and the like that's about it! Fares Bangkok to Chiang Mai: 1st class sleeper = 1,453 baht 2nd class sleeper = 881 baht 2nd class seat a/c fast railcar = 611 baht The high-speed trains won't have a sleeper (would take maybe 2.5 hours to get to Chiang Mai), so we can compare their price to the 2nd class seat with A/C, which is 611 baht. Even if they triple the price (as someone here said) to 1,800 baht one way, it is still cheaper then air travel. Seems like a good option for tourists, although backpackers will continue to use the slow trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Off topic posts have been removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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