Trying To Learn Motorbike (Advice Needed)

[terrification]

I am an ethnic Indian who is of Thai national and have been living here since his birth.

I am an introvert and as a result I don't know as much Thai as I should know. It's quite embarrassing.

it seems like I am going to be spending even more time here unless things turn in my favor dramatically.

I live near Emporium and my commute is to Thong Lo.

It is a 15 minute commute on a busy day by car while going and 30 minutes while returning.

I am considering to learn motorbike to make my commute a little less stressful.

I have to get places quickly such as banks and what not, I get on the motorcycle taxis almost daily.

You might be wondering what is so stressful about a car? Being years late after running an errand.

I have done a lot of research and I have been asking around, I get two very different pictures in mind from two different sources.

The Internet (especially ThaiVisa) :

You are going to get killed the second you sit on it while you are in central Bangkok.

It is suicide.

The people:

Don't ride drunk and don't ride carelessly fast, you will be okay.

Sources : Someone I met at Starbucks, my cousin, and my messenger.

My experience:

Rode for 40 kilometers in Chiang Mai with no previous experience or tutorial.

I don't know how it happened. It's weird scooters are so easy to ride. I freaked out when I realized I had made the trip.

Some idiot pick up driver cut me off and that made me a bit nervous.

I called a car and motorbike teacher to teach me and I felt it wasn't worth the fare, I was riding a scooter with no helmet in central Bangkok, scared me quite a bit.

My plan :

Honda Big Bike Riding School (I guess that is what they call it)

Motorcycle riding gear

Start off with a CBR250RR, CRF250R, or a Kawasaki D-Tracker.

My question:

Am I really going to get killed or what?

I am quite eager to learn a bike but what i read,what I hear, and what I see are not consistent with each other.

I am 21. Yes, I fear testosterone poisoning sometimes but it's either ride on the motorcycle taxis forever with no gear or get my own.

I think it'd be a bit weird to wear a full suit on a scooter behind someone who isn't.

Edited December 13, 2012 by terrification

[poanoi]

Yes, try it out, learn to signal and position yourself prior to a turn,

but dont expect others to do the same for you.

I had a good time driving, but they have put the fear of death in me so i hardly drive any more.

[NeverSure]

Take lessons from someone who REALLY knows how to ride. I am a certified motorcycle instructor and I will start you with two tips.

1. Get at least 60 - 70% of your braking from your front tire. When you brake with your front brake, weight transfer will put most of the weight on the front tire giving far superior traction. The back tire on the other hand actually loses traction and skids even if you don't feel it. You can stop in about 1/2 the distance by using this front brake bias.

2. Learn how to countersteer. Get your scooter or even a bicycle going about 15 - 20 kph and gently press forward on the right handle bar grip. That will turn the wheel left, but the bike will jump to the right. This is essential, and must become a habit to dodge obstacles and to negotiate curves. It is counter intuitive so you must try it first for yourself and then make it a habit. Conversely, if your habit is to steer in the direction you want to go, your bike will fight you and want to go the other way.

[VocalNeal]

As most motorbike business guys like couriers etc ride local scooters or old Vespas, if you only intend to travel in the Sukhumvit/Silom/ Rachada area and automatic scooter would be better. If you want to ride on the weekends then yes something bigger. If you are thinking the sort of money for a CBR you could buy a 150 Vespa for 99,000. Even though the "new" Vespa they still have street cred.

Vespa showroom is on Thonglor, I believe, so if they have service there that maybe ideal. Also there are vespa clubs where you could meet new people. There is also a PCX club but Vespa is a tad more trendy.

As for learning yes both Honda and Yamaha have rider programmes in Thai. Details are on their websites. Don't know if Vespa has one. If you can drive a car you have already some road sense which transfers to a bike.

Edited December 13, 2012 by VocalNeal

[macknife]

You say you are on the back of a motorcycle almost daily, so you already should know the answer on whether it's too dangerous or not.

The question is, do you want to put your own safety at risk by letting others ride for you and you not wearing any protection at all, not even a helmet, or should you just put your life in your own hands?

You can already ride a scooter as you proved to yourself with 40kms in Chiang Mai, so give it a go.

My advice would be to take those courses you mentioned and buy a scooter like a Honda Click, Yamaha Nouvo or mio, and not buy a CBR250 yet. I feel that if you are currently nervous then a CBR might not be the best thing to start on. You can always sell the scooter later, for a very good price, if you feel you want to step up.

Also, I don't think you'll need a full biker racing suit, for short journeys around Sukumvit and Thong Lor. A decent helmet and a padded biker jacket should be enough. You can buy some strap on knee pads to put over your jeans etc if it makes you feel better.

[NeverSure]

The bigger and heavier a motorcycle is, the more stable and easier to maneuver it is. This too is counter intuitive, but it's true. A small scooter is affected by every little bump in the road.

3. Another tip. When making very slow and sharp turns, lightly ride your rear brake. This will greatly stabilize the bike. You can make a U-turn in one lane (10') of a 20' (3 meter) street on a full sized Harley doing that, easily.

If anyone thinks that a full sized Harley (or other big bike) can't be made to dance, please watch this. At the very end, the rider is using his rear brake against a slipping clutch for stability, and almost standing still without touching feet to the ground.

This video is the essence of countersteering, front wheel braking, and rear brake use for slow turns. You can even see the red brake lights in slow turns, on all of the bikes.

Edited December 13, 2012 by NeverSure

[poanoi]

The bigger and heavier a motorcycle is, the more stable and easier to maneuver it is. This too is counter intuitive, but it's true.

Nonsense, for extreme maneuverability you'd want as light as possible,

heavier is more stable tho

[loserlazer]

Just go forward and buy a bike with gear and clutch.

Cbr150 is perfect to learn riding here.

Just prioritize your needs. You wanna commute onlt or will you go outside of Bangkok? Buy your bike accordingly. Do not buy a bigger bike for sure.

It s a torture to drive a car around sukhumvit so get a bike and free yourself and your time.

Do not get a scooter.

Good luck and you can make it man.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect App

[poanoi]

Disagree on the clutch, as a complete newbie it will be better with a semi auto scooter,

the traffic misery is enough already without having to fibble with a clutch that you dont master

[paulchiangmai]

The bigger and heavier a motorcycle is, the more stable and easier to maneuver it is. This too is counter intuitive, but it's true. A small scooter is affected by every little bump in the road.

3. Another tip. When making very slow and sharp turns, lightly ride your rear brake. This will greatly stabilize the bike. You can make a U-turn in one lane (10') of a 20' (3 meter) street on a full sized Harley doing that, easily.

If anyone thinks that a full sized Harley (or other big bike) can't be made to dance, please watch this. At the very end, the rider is using his rear brake against a slipping clutch for stability, and almost standing still without touching feet to the ground.

This video is the essence of countersteering, front wheel braking, and rear brake use for slow turns. You can even see the red brake lights in slow turns, on all of the bikes.

How would you get on riding the rear brake on a PCX? Correct me if I am wrong but on a PCX the front brake is also partially applied when using the rear brake.

[NeverSure]

The bigger and heavier a motorcycle is, the more stable and easier to maneuver it is. This too is counter intuitive, but it's true.

Nonsense, for extreme maneuverability you'd want as light as possible,

heavier is more stable tho

Nonsense.

Edited December 13, 2012 by NeverSure

[NeverSure]

How would you get on riding the rear brake on a PCX? Correct me if I am wrong but on a PCX the front brake is also partially applied when using the rear brake.

And they are extremely dangerous for that reason. My first criteria when choosing a MC is "how much control do I have of it?"

My next criteria is that it be heavy enough and have big enough tires that it isn't tossed about by the road, or blown around by the wind from passing vehicles.

It's amazing how much control you get at low speed by lightly riding the rear brake, or even riding it while slipping the clutch. Watch the very end of that video above again. If I'm buying, I'll accept only a standard transmission and independent brakes, and some weight. Any one of them could save my life.

[NeverSure]

Nonsense, for extreme maneuverability you'd want as light as possible,

heavier is more stable tho

Nonsense. Watch the video again. That's a full sized Harley road bike - what's called a "bagger." Not everyone who owns a scooter could negotiate that course, and that's putting it kindly. Heavy equals stable even in tight turns and at slow speeds. Only those who can't ride would say that Harley isn't completely maneuverable.

Edited December 13, 2012 by NeverSure

[poanoi]

And that's where it hurt isn't it ?

The boy has social issues and wonder how he can make a 10 minute trip

less stressful,

and yet all you can come up with is your Harley merchandize !

Grow up & come off it, whatever you're suffering from.

[NeverSure]

And that's where it hurt isn't it ?

The boy has social issues and wonder how he can make a 10 minute trip

less stressful,

and yet all you can come up with is your Harley merchandize !

Grow up & come off it, whatever you're suffering from.

If you're talking to me, bring whatever you want and I'll ride circles around you. I compete in the type of riding in that video, and I teach it. I'm a certified instructor and my signature will get you a motorcycle endorsement in my state. Without my class, or one like it, you won't be licensed.

Growing up also means learning to accept new ideas. I gave you some and proved it with videos. Here's one more on stopping, keeping your eyes up, and out and using primarily the front brake.

Here, Washington State and my State REQUIRE you to take this class and PASS it to get a license to ride a motorcycle. Can you pass this whole test including all videos?

Edited December 13, 2012 by NeverSure

[NeverSure]

Now, watch this bone stock 80cc EVO Harley Wide Glide from the 90's flat outrun a 1200cc BMW sport bike in the twisties. This is a climb of one mile over about 10 miles distance. Some of the curves are complete U turns. All are much sharper than can be observed. There are drop offs to the side of the road of almost one mile.

The sport bike easily catches the EVO on the straights, but there are enough tight turns that the difference in skill of the two riders causes the EVO to lose the BMW on the corners. The BMW can't catch and can't pass the EVO. This is all skill. The BMW would otherwise be long gone, but watch him brake instead of accelerate through corners, and generally choose the wrong line in the corners.

The BMW is all over the place on the corners while the EVO appears to be glued to rails. Skill. Flat out skill.

Edited December 13, 2012 by NeverSure

[tinfoilhat]

deleted

Edited December 13, 2012 by tinfoilhat

[tinfoilhat]

Disagree on the clutch, as a complete newbie it will be better with a semi auto scooter,

the traffic misery is enough already without having to fibble with a clutch that you dont master

if you cant use a clutch, you should not be on the road.

this applies equally for cars and bikes.

automatic bikes terrify me. the absence of control is shocking.

As for neversure, get over yourself mate.

[NeverSure]

As for neversure, get over yourself mate.

The OP said he was new to scooters. He said he was considering the Honda Big Bike school. He said he asked for private lessons but they were too expensive. He said he rode a scooter in significant traffic with no training.

Nothing which will save a life is too expensive. I gave significant help and ideas for both experienced and inexperienced alike.

"Get over myself." I will never get over trying to save lives. Knowing how to countersteer around a vehicle which suddenly pulls in front of you and stops, or knowing how to stop short of it is not something I will "get over." Knowing to countersteer in a corner if you are going off the road from failure to turn sharply enough the conventional way will save a life. No "died failing to negotiate a curve" will pass if I can help it.

Get over yourself. I'm betting you can't really ride, or you'd give me a thumbs up.

[poanoi]

The fully automatic was unnatural to me too, but the semi auto still leaves engine braking etc,

good control, and it has another advantage:

i can carry a beer case or a chair while driving it, (or anything else i can lift on one arm)

I also advice against a racing look-a-like bike for city commuting,

it was never built for those speeds and are ungainly.

The last point i may perhaps be a tad subjective, since i'm too big to even fit on them suckers

Edited December 14, 2012 by poanoi

[NeverSure]

Engine braking uses the rear tire. The front brake has the traction. I really don't mean to be offensive, but if it saves a life or even a hospital stay, I'll take my chances.

I'm not interested in impressing anyone personally. I'm interested in impressing safety and technique. I don't want any one hurt and good technique can do marvelous things.

If something pulls out in front of me and I know how to stop in half the distance that an untrained rider can, then I'd like to pass that info along. If I know to do a double countersteer to dodge around an object with a couple of flicks of the wrists, I want others to know how too. If I know how to ride the rear brake to make a sudden U-turn, maybe to get away from bad guys who can't do that, then I'd like others to know that too.

Some have taken me as boasting but nothing could be farther from the truth. I stated some credentials in hopes of getting just one person to listen, and then I explained and posted vids.

My only desire is that I helped the OP, and anyone else who didn't know.

Peace.

[dave_boo]

Not trying to through fuel on the fire, but I've seen many much better riders take their bikes which were technically very inferior to the one I was on and leave me very far behind.

To the OP, as mentioned earlier there is no gear that is too good for your health or hide. Purchase more expensive that you can afford...a month on noodles will be well worth it when you put your bike down. I don't know of anybody who has never dropped a bike; I think that there was one or two on this forum who claimed to never have but I've never seen anybody in real life NEVER fall down. It will happen same as when you were learning to walk or ride a bicycle. Thus you should definitely be prepared to deal with it.

An honest to goodness helmet is paramount. Not one of those cheap nasty jobs that look like it was made with left over 'tamboon' bucket plastic. Rather one that is certified. My understanding that the Thai certification is right up there with the rest of the world; however I'd still be interested in getting a Snell (prefer it over the DOT for the technical reasons but both are better than no cert) from a reputable manufacturer. As the Indians, Bengladeshis, and Sri Lankhans that I work with here seem to have a "Western" head (meaning that measurements from the forehead straight back are significantly larger than the temple to temple measurements...which an "Eastern" head there much closer) I would highly recommend trying a bunch of helmets on, or buying from a Westerner owned shop. Make sure it's tight but not compressing your head in one area more than others. You want the same level of fit all around.

There's a bunch of contention about jackets. I'd say that if you're simply going to be riding in Bangkok, go with mesh. The speeds you'll be reaching won't be significant enough to melt the material. And if you do have an off and start sliding in the traffic you're talking about I think you'd be more worried about a BTS running you over. Definitely leave the padding in at least the elbows. You'd be surprised how you instinctively put them down when you are sliding. Having the back protector in is good advice also, but sure does get hot.

A good par of gloves is important also. Meshed ones that are armoured in the knuckles are pretty nice. Some will say protective trousers, but for city riding...meh..just remember to bring your knees up and you'll be sliding almost only on your back and soles of your boots. And you will want boots. Even if you don't get good racer boy boots, you'll want some nice heavy leather lace up boots. Dockers, Timberland or the like. You don't want your feet pointing backwards after a nasty off do you?

As far as the bike goes, it's really your personal preference. The CBR 150R is an awesome entry bike. A bit impractical if you're planning on using it as a regular run-about in the city. Even though you can hang your bags from the mirrors and other places, doing so definitely takes away the practicality of the bike. And anything bigger you're definitely going to want to open it up...not the best thing to do when you're a new rider. It splits the power levels between the 125 bikes and the 250s rather nicely.

A twist and go is a good choice. Honda (the only experience I have with scooters) makes bikes that are nearly indestructible. Jump on them, start them up, and ride off. Even with no warm ups the family's scooters are still going strong. Biggest problems with them is the lack of control mentioned (severe ego bruiser), single shocks, blandness and the ladylike sitting position. Pluses are generous underseat storage, nippy-ness that comes from wee lil tyres, and the ability to just concentrate on what you're doing.

The semi-autos are a good compromise. They will teach the importance of shifting while not overburdening the rider. Underseat storage is usually less and and the exposed footpegs results in more wet feet than the semi autos give you. They do have twin shocks and the design has had the bugs worked out of it since the sold the first 3 million Honda Cubs.

Really it's a personal choice. One an sit and tell you about all the specs till your head swims. But you have to get out there and try it. You can listen to opinion, but one's opinion is based on one's experiences and biases. Just like when Jonny and I get into arguments over torque versus HP...and he's still wrong

[terrification]

Did not expect these many posts!

Thanks!

Although, I think I will get a feel first at the Honda School.

I am not going to get a motorbike or a scooter without trying them both out.

Currently, I am leaning on getting a second hand motorcycle under 300cc (4 stroke)/150cc (2 stroke).

I'd like to do track days, wear proper gear (the videos on youtube scared me), and have some stability.

So I think I should get some small capacity sporty bike.

@NeverSure

No Harley for me yet! Those things are loud,heavy, wide, and have the engine capacity of a car. I could not handle one.

The seem quite safe in the aspect of being visible though.

Crazy videos for sure though, I have watched those before.

All in all, I am more concerned about safety and I'd like to try them out before making any decision whatsoever.

Just wanted to make sure I wouldn't get killed.

If anyone thinks death is almost certain, let me know.

Also, would I be safer being ridden around by a motorcycle taxi or riding on my own?

I have always wondered that given their experience.

[NeverSure]

Good points. If you have to go down, with no other option, crank the wheel hard left and skid the rear tire. This will lay the bike down to slide, and the wheels will slide ahead, giving you some cushion against whatever you hit. This is called going down in the low side. the bike simple lays down and slides ahead of you and takes the blow giving you some protection.

There is not much worse than going off the high side. This is when the bike goes sideways, begins to lay down, and then the tires get traction and flip the bike up and over and you are launched into the air ahead of the bike. Now not only do you have a hard fall to the pavement, but you have a bike sliding right behind you as a weapon. You have nothing to protect you against whatever you're going to hit, and the bike is coming to hit you. By ALL means slide (skid) that bike down onto the low side and ride it out.

[NeverSure]

Did not expect these many posts!

Thanks!

Although, I think I will get a feel first at the Honda School.

I am not going to get a motorbike or a scooter without trying them both out.

Currently, I am leaning on getting a second hand motorcycle under 300cc (4 stroke)/150cc (2 stroke).

I'd like to do track days, wear proper gear (the videos on youtube scared me), and have some stability.

So I think I should get some small capacity sporty bike.

@NeverSure

No Harley for me yet! Those things are loud,heavy, wide, and have the engine capacity of a car. I could not handle one.

The seem quite safe in the aspect of being visible though.

Crazy videos for sure though, I have watched those before.

All in all, I am more concerned about safety and I'd like to try them out before making any decision whatsoever.

Just wanted to make sure I wouldn't get killed.

If anyone thinks death is almost certain, let me know.

Also, would I be safer being ridden around by a motorcycle taxi or riding on my own?

I have always wondered that given their experience.

They drive like maniacs with no training and I rode one just once. A Harley is in no way advisable or necessary. The point is that a heavier bike of any kind is very maneuverable, is less affected by potholes, etc., and less affected by wind from traffic. I'd rather have a 250 or 400 that a scooter.

But even if you have a scooter or a bicycle all of the rules apply. Countersteer, use front brake if you have caliper brakes, ride the rear brake at slow speeds, etc. etc. They are still the safe methods.

Cheers

[VocalNeal]

My next criteria is that it be heavy enough and have big enough tires that it isn't tossed about by the road, or blown around by the wind from passing vehicles.

On Sukhumvit and Thonglor?

[NeverSure]

My next criteria is that it be heavy enough and have big enough tires that it isn't tossed about by the road, or blown around by the wind from passing vehicles.

On Sukhumvit and Thonglor?

Why TF do people just want to argue. YES I have seen diagonal lines on those roads from patching, and they are dangerous for small wheels. The trick, if you have room, is to set up to cross them at close to right angles. YES I have seen potholes and yes I have been in construction zones with much torn up. A wider tire is an advantage in all of those circumstances. So is weight.

I also see people use scooters for rather long trips. It will work, but knowledge is power. A scooter will work, but knowledge is power. I will always prefer a manual transmission, a clutch, and independent brakes because they are part of the techniques of safe riding.

I set out to give some preliminary tips to the OP. It is discouraging to find myself "debating" with people who don't have the training and practice. I guess it is true that it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

[VocalNeal]

Well I can tell you why people wish to make fun.

A 21 year-old self proclaimed reserved guy wants to buy his first motorcycle and you are rambling on about Harleys in high speed turns and how to lay the bike down to slide under semi-trucks like James Bond.

If your posts were more about the OP's problem and less about yourself then he maybe others would be less playful.

Edited December 14, 2012 by VocalNeal

[NeverSure]

Well I can tell you why people wish to make fun.

A 21 year-old self proclaimed reserved guy wants to buy his first motorcycle and you are rambling on about Harleys in high speed turns and how to lay the bike down to slide under semi-trucks like James Bond.

If your posts were more about the OP's problem and less about yourself then he maybe others would be less playful.

The OP asked, and I gave every piece of basic information I could think of. It is simply true that a heavier, wider tired bike is safer than a scooter, even it you hit something if only because you have more around you to push an object, and to protect you.

If I could have found a video of scooters doing countersteering, rear tire stabilizing, front wheel braking etc, I would have posted them. It just happens that experts ride heavier bikes for maneuvering so that's what I had to post. I looked for vids of scooters.

If you will read my posts, every one of them is relevant to good riding technique and I said it applied to bicycles and scooters. If you will read, I said a Harley isn't at all necessary. I did point out, and some should have taken notice, that with proper technique you can make a heavy bike dance. I proved that you don't need a small light bike for quick maneuverability.

Anyone who hasn't been exposed to these techniques should appreciate the effort I made. Those who are stuck in their ways are welcome to stay ignorant but it may cost them their life.

It's there for anyone who wants it, even with a scooter. The rest can ride on in ignorance. It's not my life and limb.

I put a lot of effort into the thread and maybe just one person will be helped by it. The know-it-alls will continue in folly as know-it-all always do.

[NBD]

I would say learn slowly. I hadn't done above 50 km on a motorbike when I came here, now I ride all sorts as often as possible.

Start with a twist and go scooter. They are easy to ride as you know, which means you can concentrate on other vehicles, which you really need to in Bangkok, and on turning and signalling at the right time, which is also important.

Get a little clutch bike. I've got a nice Honda 2 stroke. It cost me 8,000 THB 3 years ago and has never been any problems at all. I've ridden it all over the place.

Then step up to a big bike. A D Tracker isn't really much more powerful than my little Honda, but it is a lot bigger, and will take a lot more concentration weaving through traffic in Bangkok.

Get yourself out of Bangkok and really learn everything on a quiet road somewhere. Stopping, turning, moving, standing etc. Practice until it all becomes second nature.