Camcorders

[rio666uk]

Hi all - ive been doing a bit of looking around on the net for information on camcorder formats...

I realise that DVD is the best and provides the best "ease of playback", but was wondering what your thoughts are to the main formats.

Im after a camcorder to buy in the UK for filming the current snow flurries, and other various english things to show the in-laws on our next holiday - im not after really high end quality for making blockbuster movies...

And can you also explain the method for playback and editing of these.. i.e. how does minidv playback? is it as simple as just plug into the TV etc..?

any advice welcome.

[Tywais]

I just bought a MiniDV camcorder and just took it out of the box last night. Only problem, no miniDV tapes supplied so haven't tried it yet. They come with a cable with a minijack on one end (to camcorder) and split out to 3 rca phono plugs (2 for audio l/r and one for video). Mine also has a S-video connector.

Can connect to the computer by either USB or IEEE1394 (Firewire) and transfer the video direct to computer and burn a DVD.

[astral]

HI8 is an old fashioned format, but cameras will be cheap.

I believe DVD will need converting before you can edit.

Mini DV tape was my choice.

[xty]

Hi all - ive been doing a bit of looking around on the net for information on camcorder formats...

I realise that DVD is the best and provides the best "ease of playback", but was wondering what your thoughts are to the main formats.

Im after a camcorder to buy in the UK for filming the current snow flurries, and other various english things to show the in-laws on our next holiday - im not after really high end quality for making blockbuster movies...

And can you also explain the method for playback and editing of these.. i.e. how does minidv playback? is it as simple as just plug into the TV etc..?

any advice welcome.

Some camcorder medias:

• Hi8 : old technology, analog, big tape, AV connection (RCA/S-Video cable) for playing on TV and capturing to video files (need video capture card on PC)
  
• Digital8 : newer technology than Hi8 but still old, digital, big tape, AV connection (RCA/S-Video cable) for playing on TV and capturing to video files (need video capture card on PC)
  
• MiniDV : most popular technology, digital, small tape and quite cheap, AV connection (mini/proprietary RCA/S-Video cable) for playing on TV, USB connection for transferring still photo files to PC (if the camera supports external memory card), IEEE1394 (aka Firewire/iLink) connection for capturing to AVI video files (need FireWire card/interface on PC/laptop and FireWire cable)
  
• MicroMV : similar to MiniDV technology but smaller tape & camera size, not very popular
  
• DVD : new technology, digital, use mini DVD-ROM/RAM/RW, not as popular as MiniDV due to expensive DVD media, advantage of fast navigation & playback than tape but still need connections (as MiniDV) for playing and capturing
  
• Harddisk : latest technology, 2.5" harddisk based, capturing & encoding to MPEG format video files on-the-fly while recording, very long recording time (compare to 60 minutes on MiniDV tape) with tens of gigas of HD capacity, AV connection for playing on TV, USB/Firewire connection to transfer the video files (no need time consuming capturing process). Product: JVC Everio G
  

For regular use, MiniDV is recommended. For techie-minded, ease of workflow, and latest technology, harddisk-based is recommended (though still expensive).

[The Dan Sai Kid]

I've got Digital 8 - the camera is very big and it's a pain to upload to my computer

[daleyboy]

I have a mini dv, and i have been very pleased with it. Pretty cheap, easy to use, quality is plenty good enough for what i want it for. In fact quality is a lot higher than i really expected, so Rio if you wanna try one out give me a ring and you are welcome to borrow my camera and give it a try

[rio666uk]

thanks for all your replies.. id like a dvd camcorder or solid state writing to flash... however, given the amount of yearly footage im likely to take - i reckon miniDV is got to be the best bet.

cheers chaps

[zzap]

I use a mini-dv/memory stick combination, and am happy with that.

Anyone buying a camcorder now, I'd advise to look into the very compact, memory card only stuff available. This seems to be the way it's heading, anything else may be obsolete in a few years...

[Nordlys]

thanks for all your replies.. id like a dvd camcorder or solid state writing to flash... however, given the amount of yearly footage im likely to take - i reckon miniDV is got to be the best bet.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=38107

You might find this thread helpful in deciding which media type camcorder to buy...

[solo siam]

Sanyo's Xacti range of video cameras are great, I have a C6 I picked up in Hong Kong with a 1 Gb memory card for 20,000 Baht. Its also a 6 megapixel camera and can take pictures (at that resolution) at the same time as filming at a different resolution.

[rio666uk]

Sanyo's Xacti range of video cameras are great, I have a C6 I picked up in Hong Kong with a 1 Gb memory card for 20,000 Baht. Its also a 6 megapixel camera and can take pictures (at that resolution) at the same time as filming at a different resolution.

ive seen this on a website for £379 in UK - whats the zoom like....?

[xty]

I use a mini-dv/memory stick combination, and am happy with that.

Anyone buying a camcorder now, I'd advise to look into the very compact, memory card only stuff available. This seems to be the way it's heading, anything else may be obsolete in a few years...

If you are looking for value for best quality, I would recommend MiniDV format and would NOT recommend at all memory-card (MemoryStick, SD, xD) media. Why?

- Because memory card is still considered expensive than MiniDV tape (4000 Baht of 1 GB SD/MemoryStick vs 100 Baht of 60 minutes MiniDV tape)

- Because memory card has limited capacity (2 GB max for SD, 4 GB max for MemoryStick), unless you can afford to purchase big capacity card (the new launched 4 GB SD or 8 GB MemoryStick) which is too way expensive

- And the most important one, because using memory card the video would be compressed as MPEG format. You're loosing the quality especially when you want to have DVD quality video. Using MiniDV you would not loose a single bit.

[rio666uk]

I use a mini-dv/memory stick combination, and am happy with that.

Anyone buying a camcorder now, I'd advise to look into the very compact, memory card only stuff available. This seems to be the way it's heading, anything else may be obsolete in a few years...

If you are looking for value for best quality, I would recommend MiniDV format and would NOT recommend at all memory-card (MemoryStick, SD, xD) media. Why?

- Because memory card is still considered expensive than MiniDV tape (4000 Baht of 1 GB SD/MemoryStick vs 100 Baht of 60 minutes MiniDV tape)

- Because memory card has limited capacity (2 GB max for SD, 4 GB max for MemoryStick), unless you can afford to purchase big capacity card (the new launched 4 GB SD or 8 GB MemoryStick) which is too way expensive

- And the most important one, because using memory card the video would be compressed as MPEG format. You're loosing the quality especially when you want to have DVD quality video. Using MiniDV you would not loose a single bit.

Yep i reckon you're absolutley right from what you and others have said - plus reading the other topic that Nordlys suggested looking at.

So now that I know what format im going for - what are the recommendations from those in the know - remember now, im not intending spending too much...

list makes n models not so much prices as im in UK at the moment so it doesnt make any difference

[daleyboy]

I have a Panasonic nv-gs11 cost me about £300 last year so i bet they are pretty cheap now.

It has everything i wanted, small, light, easy to use. It also came with a 24x optical zoom, which is cool, but you really need a tripod otherwise you just get far too much camera shake. It also came with a remote control, for when it is plugged into a tv, and also loads of other accessories. Like i said before feel free to pop over and have a look

[Tywais]

Mine is similar to daleyboy's, Panasonic NV-GS35GC. 30X zoom (phenomenal), SD card slot for still photos (simultaneous with video recording), S-Video, USB, Firewire port, remote (both Infrared for controlling while connected to a TV and a small wired remote when sitting on a tripod or table). Still trying to figure all the features out. I've read complaints about low level light problems (as is with most entry level cams) but I don't see a big problem. Had a small desk lamp on and recorded the room fine. The built in white LED lamp does bring up the scene a lot. Image stablizer also.

In my previous post I mentioned no tape came with it. Just about to throw out the shipping box and shook it, it rattled. The company I ordered it from added several freebies. A panasonic carrying bag (lots of pockets), a Panasonic MiniDV tape and to my surprise a free spare battery. Added a photo taken with my phone camera:

Forgot to add it was just under 20,000 Baht.

Edited March 3, 2006 by tywais

[daleyboy]

free spare battery.

This is most important in my opinion, because it doesnt seem to matter which camera you buy, battery life on them is pretty crap even with the huge battery. And they are expensive to buy.

[xty]

This is most important in my opinion, because it doesnt seem to matter which camera you buy, battery life on them is pretty crap even with the huge battery. And they are expensive to buy.

I bought a generic (no brand but same type) spare battery for my 4 years old Sony PC9E MiniDV. This battery is so big that it looks ridiculous to attach on the camera. But I don't care as it gives 7x capacity (640 minutes of recording time) than the regular battery (only 90 minutes). When you're travelling all day, you'll be thankful for this. It performs well and it costs only 1/3 than the original. Never ever buy original battery.

[solo siam]

I use a mini-dv/memory stick combination, and am happy with that.

Anyone buying a camcorder now, I'd advise to look into the very compact, memory card only stuff available. This seems to be the way it's heading, anything else may be obsolete in a few years...

If you are looking for value for best quality, I would recommend MiniDV format and would NOT recommend at all memory-card (MemoryStick, SD, xD) media. Why?

- Because memory card is still considered expensive than MiniDV tape (4000 Baht of 1 GB SD/MemoryStick vs 100 Baht of 60 minutes MiniDV tape)

- Because memory card has limited capacity (2 GB max for SD, 4 GB max for MemoryStick), unless you can afford to purchase big capacity card (the new launched 4 GB SD or 8 GB MemoryStick) which is too way expensive

- And the most important one, because using memory card the video would be compressed as MPEG format. You're loosing the quality especially when you want to have DVD quality video. Using MiniDV you would not loose a single bit.

DVD is an MPEG format, 1Gb memory is around 60+ minutes of "DVD Quality" recording - You dont lose any 'bits' recording onto a memory card as its digital, I dont know if teh same can be said for miniDV or other tapes.

I can make a DVD from a memory card in around 5 minutes without any mucking around copying the tape to the HDD, or real-time processing.

Also with a memory card you can also use most video cameras as a still camera as well.

Lastly Battery power is MUCH longer using memory cards than tape.

[Khun Jean]

DVD is an MPEG format, 1Gb memory is around 60+ minutes of "DVD Quality" recording - You dont lose any 'bits' recording onto a memory card as its digital, I dont know if teh same can be said for miniDV or other tapes.

I can make a DVD from a memory card in around 5 minutes without any mucking around copying the tape to the HDD, or real-time processing.

Also with a memory card you can also use most video cameras as a still camera as well.

Lastly Battery power is MUCH longer using memory cards than tape.

DVD Camcorder will compress the video before writing it on the dvd, there you will loose a lot of 'bits'.

It is the task of the imageprocessor in the camera to make it a good quality compression. Often this fails miserably (especially if it is not a semi-professional or better camera) when compared to the more 'raw' footage taken from a miniDV and using a program to convert/compress it to a dvd format with a computer. This is now a easy process. Many programs are available and even included in the package shipped with the camera.

Camcorders with harddisk are equally 'bad' quality also because of the very limited capacity.

(I am talking about the camcorders in the 'consumer' price range with prices lower than $1000.)

Also when a recorded dvd has some scratches often the whole dvd is unreadable. With miniDV if you have a bad spot or maybe even wrinkled tape you loose only a little bit video.

With the harddisk you have an added problem. What do you do when the harddisk is full!

Very inconvenient to first have to download everything on a PC before you can continue filming. With a DVD-R or miniDV it is simple putting in a new disc or tape. Forget about the memorycard/stick variety. It will cost you a fortune to have enough storage capacity. Use it only for still images or very infrequent small sized videos.

A miniDV gives you about 13 Gigabyte data for about 1 hour video. When you compare that to a dvd or harddisk (look in the camera spec to see the capacity/videolength ratio) you will see where the differences are. With less storage you have to compress the video before storing it. With miniDV it is a simple almost lossless compression PER IMAGE which will make video editing a breeze.

If video editing is what you would like to do a miniDV offers far superior image quality than it's DVD-R and harddisk recordings.

DVD-R and harddisk recording are compressed 'in camera'. This compression uses KEYFRAMES. That means every 5-20 frames a complete frame depending on how much will change in the scene.

Between those keyframes only the differences between this keyframe and the current frame are stored. Also other parts of this compression algorith can give artifacts that are there in the source and forever will be there. If you start editing this kind of compressed video it first has to be decompressed. After editing it is compressed again. Resulting in even more quality loss and artifacts showing up in de final video.

minidDV is superior in quality. If the blu-ray or HD-DVD becomes a commodity the recordabel DVD will be equal or better in quality. Harddisk and memorycard video is only of a reasonable quality when compression is very low, but that means minimal recording capacity, if the camera even allows for such a setting!

My conclusion: miniDV

[logbags]

Dear Khun Jean

I was very interested in your informed comments on video cameras as I was thinking of buying one. I hope you can indulge me on a couple of points.

Firstly I was given a JVC camera that shoots in super VHS and has a A/V input as well as video S. I could not find a battery anywhere in Phuket so never got to try it as the battery I have seems dead. It is one of those batteries that have a memory.

My concern is if I buy a laptop, can I then download from this type of camera or not? Or do I have to install capture cards etc. This camera is a bit old but it was still available in Phuket for 27.000 baht so it cannot be too bad as the cheapest JVC Everio was only 1000 Baht more.

This camera has a night shooting light and image stablelizer and looks to be a reasonable unit. I could buy a mini DV camcorder like a Panasonic or Canon very cheap and I am sure they would work ok on a laptop.

I am looking at buying the cheapest laptop like the Acer celeron with 40 gig HDD and 256 meg of RAM. Would this be enough and how do you store video once edited. Can you store to VCD disc or is that not up to the quality needed.

Basically what I want to know is this. What is the cheapest way to film and store video of good quality on a laptop and discs. Any advice would be much appreciated.

[sylvafern]

I'm still a beginner at this so don't have expert information, just what I've come to learn by having ago myself. Firstly, like Khun Jean said, 60 mins of tape = roughly 12-13gb of memory on the computer so a cheap laptop with only 40gb of memory wouldn't hold more than 2 lots of videos (if you take into account memory taken up by software and other data on the computer). Secondly, if you want to edit the video then I highly recommend getting some type of Mac as the software (imovie and idvd) is SO easy to use. You can edit, add effects, titles, all sorts of things. The first time I used imovie at my school I was given a quick 15-20 minute lesson on how to use it by one of our ICT guys then in a couple of hours edited a 'music video' whereby the kids were lipsyncing to the original song - as it's so easy to use, I was able to get the children's singing (without actually hearing their voices) perfectly in time with the soundtrack. However, the cheapest macintosh laptop (an ibook) is quite a lot more expensive than a regular laptop - plus you still have the harddrive storage issue and will most likely need an external harddrive (which I've yet to purchase but really need to do so). I think my computer is the cheapest laptop (mac) you can get which is a 60gb harddrive (upgradable to 100gb but didn't seem worth it compared to the cost of an external), 512 ram and a 14 in screen. At the time (last october) the 12 inch wasn't capable of burning to DVD. It cost 58,000 when I bought it (latest edition newly released) but I guess it's cheaper now.

[astral]

free spare battery.

This is most important in my opinion, because it doesnt seem to matter which camera you buy, battery life on them is pretty crap even with the huge battery. And they are expensive to buy.

On this point, check what you are getting in the box against the list on the box, or in the manual.

When I got back to my hotel I found I had been stitched up with a small battery as "standard"

instead of the one listed in the manual.

They corrected it when I point out the error, but claimed it was the battery supplied by the manufacturer.

[donx]

Mine is similar to daleyboy's, Panasonic NV-GS35GC. 30X zoom (phenomenal), SD card slot for still photos (simultaneous with video recording), S-Video, USB, Firewire port, remote (both Infrared for controlling while connected to a TV and a small wired remote when sitting on a tripod or table). Still trying to figure all the features out. I've read complaints about low level light problems (as is with most entry level cams) but I don't see a big problem. Had a small desk lamp on and recorded the room fine. The built in white LED lamp does bring up the scene a lot. Image stablizer also.

In my previous post I mentioned no tape came with it. Just about to throw out the shipping box and shook it, it rattled. The company I ordered it from added several freebies. A panasonic carrying bag (lots of pockets), a Panasonic MiniDV tape and to my surprise a free spare battery. Added a photo taken with my phone camera:

Forgot to add it was just under 20,000 Baht.

I have the US version of this (PV-GS35) and I really love it. After rebate, it cost me less than $350 from an internet retailer. Definitely get a second bigger battery.

[astral]

A thought that comes to mind relates to where you buy.

If you buy a camera in the US it will have a different number as it is the NTSC version

The models sold in Asia will be PAL

Edited May 3, 2006 by astral

[Firefoxx]

My 2 cents (or more):

DVD: Remember that you're not using a full DVD, but a min-DVD. A miniDVD stores around 1.5GB of information. That gives you about 20 minutes of so-so video, or an hour or really bad video. Yes, you can easily slot into your DVD player for instant gratification, but the thing is you are stuck with whatever you've pressed "record" on. People edit videos for a reason, and the reason is that unless you'll *very* good at it, you'll end up with bad footage. Problem with miniDVD-based camcorders is that their recording format is not understood by most video editors.

Harddisk: They use a similar recording format to miniDVD camcorders, but they have bigger capacities (30GB) so you can record more. Which is fortunate, since you can't swap out the media for another. Their big achilles heel (bigger than the media) is their lousy picture quality. Go and look at the JVC harddisk camcorder reviews at camcorderinfo.com. All very bad. Pros are that it's very small, and you don't pay for media... since you can't buy any.

Memory-based: Generally very small and petite, and it's a breeze to tranfer to computer. But also generally lacking in the quality department, even worse than harddisk-based camcorders. Compression is very high, and artifacts are plenty. The media isn't cheap, either. Then you have the general shoddiness of the CCD, and you have a small and cheap gadget that videographers wouldn't touch.

miniDV: Ah, the archaic tape. It's not random access like the rest, so there's the pain of rewinding. But you get compatibility, quality, capacity (1 hour, 12+GB/tape), and price. Yes, it's cheap. The media is cheap too ($4/tape). It's easy to edit, but takes time to transfer. The quality is better than the others, yet it's way older. It's not going away anytime soon, either... the same tape is being used for HDV, which is hi-def on miniDV tapes (I know since I've got one).

And don't even think of using that camcorder to take good photos. They are horrible at it.

You can buy PAL models in the US... just not everywhere. Tourist-area shops will sell them, but I don't recommend those shops (*cough*scam*cough*). Big online stores like B&H also sell certain models.

As for PCs vs Macs for editing, it's in the personal preference. There *are* easy to use video editors for the PC, it's just that they're not included with WindowsXP.