Bring Out Truth About Tak Bai: Rights Advocate

[webfact]

Bring out truth about Tak Bai: rights advocate

The Nation

Says govt must deal swiftly with militants' tactic in trying to gain locals' sympathy

BANGKOK: -- The government must quickly deal with the latest tactic of the insurgents in raising the spectre of 2004's Tak Bai incident to gain the sympathy of locals in the South, Human Rights Watch researcher Sunai Phasuk said yesterday.

newsjs

"The government must bring out the truth about the Tak Bai incident," Sunai said.

Insurgents have said last Wednesday's attack on a Narathiwat marine base in which 16 insurgents were killed was in retaliation for Tak Bai. In the October 2004 incident, 1,500 men demonstrated against the detention of six men at a police station in Narathiwat's Tak Bai district. The protesters were rounded up and loaded with their hands bound behind them into trucks for transport to a nearby military base. At least 86 of the detainees died along the way, mostly of suffocation.

"Instead of saying that it has to protect the marine base, the government should set up a committee to probe the insurgents' claim that those who were ambushed and killed by the marines last Wednesday were those involved in the Tak Bai incident,'' Sunai said.

He also criticised the government's tactic of giving compensation to families of slain insurgents as well as victims of insurgent attacks. "This method does not work because lives cannot be brought back with money,'' Sunai said.

He said the government's failure to punish the security officials responsible for the Tak Bai deaths must be corrected because insurgents have been using this point to gain sympathy for their cause.

"The Justice Ministry's efforts to bring about justice in the restive South must be renewed. The government should get Chaturon Chaisang back to do this task,'' he said.

Sunai also warned against propagating the message that locals are cooperating with the government. "The officials should nurture good ties with locals but if they say locals are helping them crack down on insurgents, the locals will be killed."

Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung may have good intentions but he lacks understanding about the situation, Sunai said, citing Chalerm's proposal to drop internal security charges against suspects who surrender and confess that they committed the offence because they had been misled.

Sunai also said the series of bomb attacks on Saturday and Sunday that resulted in four deaths in Pattani's city centre, was the result of tit-for-tat tactics by the insurgents, who have turned to attacking Thai civilians because they believe Thais belong to the Thai state.

When pressured in one area, insurgents in the South might move to cause violence in other areas, Sunai warned, referring to the "squeezing the balloons" theory - when security is tightened in one area, the insurgents will move to areas under less pressure.

Meanwhile, Internal Security Operations Command Region Four spokesman Colonel Pramot Prom-in expressed confidence that suspects in the weekend's bombings in Pattani would be arrested soon. Some of the attackers were caught on security camera footage, though it will be harder to identify those who camouflaged themselves by wearing women's clothes and hiding the bomb under a hijab.

Although security officials were able to prevent casualties from bombs planted on Saturday, Sunday's bombing near Pattani's clock tower could not be prevented because insurgents were already hiding at the scene and had quickly improvised the explosive device, Pramot said.

Asked to confirm a claim that one of 16 insurgents who died during last Wednesday's attack on the marine base was a student at Rajabhat University, Pramot said the university should make students understand why security officials had to act. He added that misunderstandings about the insurgency must be solved at all pondok religious schools in the South.

-- The Nation 2013-02-19

[Buchholz]

the insurgents' claim that those who were ambushed and killed by the marines last Wednesday were those involved in the Tak Bai incident

Given the context of what happened in 2004..... Justice denied can be a powerful motivator...

"I can say that the government resorted to gentle measures and did not use force in suppressing the protesters," Prime Minister Thaksin said. "They did a great job. They have my praise.''

.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Buchholz

[Siripon]

This incident truly showed Thaksin's utter disregard for human life-" They died because they were weak from fasting in Ramadan'' .

No one was punished for the 86 deaths.

Thaksin made a very big mistake when he abolished the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Centre (SBPAC), an organisation linking all participants in southern Thailand.

[Moruya]

This, the war on drugs and kru se should all be on the list.

[jayboy]

This incident truly showed Thaksin's utter disregard for human life-" They died because they were weak from fasting in Ramadan'' .

No one was punished for the 86 deaths.

Thaksin made a very big mistake when he abolished the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Centre (SBPAC), an organisation linking all participants in southern Thailand.

Thaksin's comments were certainly repellent but the primary guilty party was the Thai army, a rather crucial point which so far on this thread comments have managed to avoid mentioning.Predictably it seems that even in respect of this terrible tragedy some prefer to concentrate on Thaksin than on the criminal brutality of the army.

[muttley]

This, the war on drugs and kru se should all be on the list.

Do tell us, preferably with examples, what the National crackdown on drugs undertaken by the Thaksin administration has to do with the insurgency in the South?

[moe666]

This played out live on Thai Tv they were not gentle. Seeing how the last PM is being charged with murder while doing his duties I guess Big T will be next in line for doing his duties

[MunterHunter]

Thaksin's comments were certainly repellent but the primary guilty party was the Thai army, a rather crucial point which so far on this thread comments have managed to avoid mentioning.Predictably it seems that even in respect of this terrible tragedy some prefer to concentrate on Thaksin than on the criminal brutality of the army.

Much like the current (mal)administrations quest to bury Abhisit and Suthep over the 2010 incident?

[jayboy]

Thaksin's comments were certainly repellent but the primary guilty party was the Thai army, a rather crucial point which so far on this thread comments have managed to avoid mentioning.Predictably it seems that even in respect of this terrible tragedy some prefer to concentrate on Thaksin than on the criminal brutality of the army.

Much like the current (mal)administrations quest to bury Abhisit and Suthep over the 2010 incident?

Actually completely different since in 2010 Abhisit and Suthep were closely coordinating with and directing the military forces actions.Nobody seriously suggests Thaksin was directing the military's actions at Tak Bai - though the usual suspects will perhaps give it a go (they don't really value honesty)

[dcutman]

This, the war on drugs and kru se should all be on the list.

Do tell us, preferably with examples, what the National crackdown on drugs undertaken by the Thaksin administration has to do with the insurgency in the South?

Thaksin has ordered the security forces to launch a new offensive in the southern provinces, ostensibly to crack down on illegal firearms. On November 6, after announcing the cancellation of his trip to Chile for the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum meeting, Thaksin declared in a radio address: “Anyone who illegally possesses a war weapon will face the death sentence, but innocent people do not have to panic.” Before visiting Tak Bai the next day, he told journalists he was going to the area to instruct the police and army to act more aggressively against separatist militants.

Thaksin has brought the military and security forces back into the centre of political life, both through a “war on drugs” and the crackdown in the south. The Tak Bai incident is just one in a long line of acts of state violence since Thaksin took office. In 2003, over 2,500 alleged drug dealers were killed in extra-judicial executions when Thaksin launched the security forces on a wave of terror in Bangkok and other cities. Following the declaration of martial law in three southern provinces, as many as 112 Muslim youth, armed with little more than knives and stones, were slaughtered at the historic Krue Sae mosque and other locations in April.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2004/11/thai-n26.html

[jayboy]

This, the war on drugs and kru se should all be on the list.

Do tell us, preferably with examples, what the National crackdown on drugs undertaken by the Thaksin administration has to do with the insurgency in the South?

Thaksin has ordered the security forces to launch a new offensive in the southern provinces, ostensibly to crack down on illegal firearms. On November 6, after announcing the cancellation of his trip to Chile for the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum meeting, Thaksin declared in a radio address: “Anyone who illegally possesses a war weapon will face the death sentence, but innocent people do not have to panic.” Before visiting Tak Bai the next day, he told journalists he was going to the area to instruct the police and army to act more aggressively against separatist militants.

Thaksin has brought the military and security forces back into the centre of political life, both through a “war on drugs” and the crackdown in the south. The Tak Bai incident is just one in a long line of acts of state violence since Thaksin took office. In 2003, over 2,500 alleged drug dealers were killed in extra-judicial executions when Thaksin launched the security forces on a wave of terror in Bangkok and other cities. Following the declaration of martial law in three southern provinces, as many as 112 Muslim youth, armed with little more than knives and stones, were slaughtered at the historic Krue Sae mosque and other locations in April.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2004/11/thai-n26.html

Thanks for that link from the World Socialist rag which takes the view that Thailand is a battleground for competing feudal elites but in due course the working clas will raise up in a cleansing revolution to sweep the ancient regime away etc etc

Meanwhile back in the real world....

[Buchholz]

Not much changed in the intervening eight years since george posted this in the original thread...

george

Posted 2004-10-28 14:54:58

Has Thailand Lost Its Conscience?

It comes as no surprise that both the Tak Bai crackdown, which resulted in more than 80 deaths, and the war on drugs were both authorised by Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

In both instances, the Thaksin administration showed a total disregard for the most basic human rights guaranteed by the Constitution to all Thai citizens, regardless of their ethnicity or religion.

If the prevailing public opinion is any guide, then Thaksin obviously got away with the bloody crackdown on drug traffickers. It is not yet clear how well or how badly he will fare in the wake of the Tak Bai incident.

Most of the protesters had been observing the Ramadan fasting period and were therefore prone to severe dehydration and exhaustion, yet they were given neither food nor drink after being arrested.

Prisoners, all of them with their hands tied behind their back, were packed - many stacked up horizontally, several people deep - into military vehicles and heavy trucks. As a result, many of them suffocated or were crushed to death while being transported to an army barracks in Pattani for interrogation.

It is not an exaggeration to say that cattle being delivered to the slaughter house are provided better conditions and more humane treatment.

Instead of initiating an independent inquiry into this tragic incident, General Sirichai Thanyasiri, who is in charge of the military command in the Muslim South, on Wednesday appointed senior government officials and army and police officers to determine whether any wrongdoing had been committed leading to the deaths of so many of the protesters in the Fourth Army's custody.

This thinly veiled charade of justice is a fresh affront to the already grieving local Muslim population, which will naturally want a full explanation of what happened to its loved ones. They expect to see that justice is done, wrongdoers punished, their loss compensated and, above all, that the Thaksin administration make a sincere and unreserved public apology.

Without waiting for the outcome of the internal investigation, Prime Minister Thaksin has had the nerve to extend his forgiveness to all military personnel involved, casually dismissing the deaths of the protesters in captivity as an "unfortunate accident".

The prime minister also appeared unperturbed by the chorus of international condemnation, saying instead that Thailand could explain away what happened simply as an internal affair.

[jayboy]

Not much changed in the intervening eight years since george posted this in the original thread...

george

Posted 2004-10-28 14:54:58

Has Thailand Lost Its Conscience?

It comes as no surprise that both the Tak Bai crackdown, which resulted in more than 80 deaths, and the war on drugs were both authorised by Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

In both instances, the Thaksin administration showed a total disregard for the most basic human rights guaranteed by the Constitution to all Thai citizens, regardless of their ethnicity or religion.

If the prevailing public opinion is any guide, then Thaksin obviously got away with the bloody crackdown on drug traffickers. It is not yet clear how well or how badly he will fare in the wake of the Tak Bai incident.

Most of the protesters had been observing the Ramadan fasting period and were therefore prone to severe dehydration and exhaustion, yet they were given neither food nor drink after being arrested.

Prisoners, all of them with their hands tied behind their back, were packed - many stacked up horizontally, several people deep - into military vehicles and heavy trucks. As a result, many of them suffocated or were crushed to death while being transported to an army barracks in Pattani for interrogation.

It is not an exaggeration to say that cattle being delivered to the slaughter house are provided better conditions and more humane treatment.

Instead of initiating an independent inquiry into this tragic incident, General Sirichai Thanyasiri, who is in charge of the military command in the Muslim South, on Wednesday appointed senior government officials and army and police officers to determine whether any wrongdoing had been committed leading to the deaths of so many of the protesters in the Fourth Army's custody.

This thinly veiled charade of justice is a fresh affront to the already grieving local Muslim population, which will naturally want a full explanation of what happened to its loved ones. They expect to see that justice is done, wrongdoers punished, their loss compensated and, above all, that the Thaksin administration make a sincere and unreserved public apology.

Without waiting for the outcome of the internal investigation, Prime Minister Thaksin has had the nerve to extend his forgiveness to all military personnel involved, casually dismissing the deaths of the protesters in captivity as an "unfortunate accident".

The prime minister also appeared unperturbed by the chorus of international condemnation, saying instead that Thailand could explain away what happened simply as an internal affair.

I agree this is still very valid comment, and with unusual honesty accepts that Thai public opinion was behind Thaksin's war on drugs (actually not just the man in the street but extemely influential people - explaining why there has never been any question of charging Thaksin for this abuse).

Thaksin's reaction to Tak Bai was despicable but as the article makes clear the prime responsibility lies with the army.The military criminals were never charged and long after Thaksin had left the scene an internal court found the military culprits not guilty.

As a footnote it's true that Thaksin was contemptuous of international opinion "interfering" in Thailand's internal affairs.It seems to be pretty much a common theme of Thai governments as for example when international opinion siomilarly criticised the slaughter of civilians in 2010.

[dcutman]

This, the war on drugs and kru se should all be on the list.

Do tell us, preferably with examples, what the National crackdown on drugs undertaken by the Thaksin administration has to do with the insurgency in the South?

Thaksin has ordered the security forces to launch a new offensive in the southern provinces, ostensibly to crack down on illegal firearms. On November 6, after announcing the cancellation of his trip to Chile for the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum meeting, Thaksin declared in a radio address: “Anyone who illegally possesses a war weapon will face the death sentence, but innocent people do not have to panic.” Before visiting Tak Bai the next day, he told journalists he was going to the area to instruct the police and army to act more aggressively against separatist militants.

Thaksin has brought the military and security forces back into the centre of political life, both through a “war on drugs” and the crackdown in the south. The Tak Bai incident is just one in a long line of acts of state violence since Thaksin took office. In 2003, over 2,500 alleged drug dealers were killed in extra-judicial executions when Thaksin launched the security forces on a wave of terror in Bangkok and other cities. Following the declaration of martial law in three southern provinces, as many as 112 Muslim youth, armed with little more than knives and stones, were slaughtered at the historic Krue Sae mosque and other locations in April.

http://www.wsws.org/...1/thai-n26.html

Thanks for that link from the World Socialist rag which takes the view that Thailand is a battleground for competing feudal elites but in due course the working clas will raise up in a cleansing revolution to sweep the ancient regime away etc etc

Meanwhile back in the real world....

Social rags in your opinion. But not to many of your respected sources have much to say on the matter. Here is some more from a so called social rag.

When Thaksin Shinawatra was elected prime minister in 2001, he flatly dismissed any suggestion that ethnic Malay Muslim insurgency might have been reactivated. His government took the view that shootings, acts of arson, bombings, and raids on government arsenals in the southern border provinces were caused by banditry or turf wars between criminal gangs, or by influential people with vested interests in creating instability and undermining the government’s credibility, which, they assumed, made it possible to resolve the problem quickly.³⁶

It was this assessment, and a desire to put his own people in place—particularly by enhancing the role of the police (Thaksin is a former police officer) at the expense of the army—that led Thaksin to dissolve the SBPAC and CPM 43 in 2002. The leading role and authority that the army had in managing the southern border provinces was transferred to the police. The special security policy dating from Gen. Prem’s premiership in the early 1980s (see above), which reflected the region’s unique characteristics, was also discontinued. Major changes in personnel and the transfer of most authority from the army to the police resulted in the politicization of security policy and the weakening of intelligence gathering and analysis regarding the identity of separatist groups, as well as the scale and trajectory of their violence.

On the ground, the dissolution of SBPAC and CPM43 sparked fears among the ethnic Malay Muslim population that the government had taken away a vital safeguard that for many years had ensured their protection from being abused and exploited by local Thai officials.

A sense of fear and resentment became palpable after the government launched an anti-drug campaign that quickly evolved into a violent and murderous “war on drugs” in 2003. Prime Minister Thaksin’s Order 29/2546, signed on January 28, 2003, called for the absolute suppression of drug trafficking by stating that, “if a person is charged with a drug offense, that person will be regarded as a dangerous person who is threatening social and national security.”³⁷ In the ensuing weeks, the government gave governors and police chiefs in each province targets for the number of arrests of suspected drug traffickers and the seizures of narcotics. Countrywide between February and May 2003, 2,598 alleged drug offenders were shot dead in apparent extrajudicial killings;³⁸ many of these killings appeared to be based on “blacklists” prepared by police and local government agencies. A member of the National Human Rights Commission told Human Rights Watch that throughout the country—particularly in the more lawless southern border provinces—these lists were used by police and local authorities to settle local disputes and, at the same time, score political points with the government.³⁹ As blacklisted suspects had no mechanism by which to challenge their inclusion on a list, and with the increasingly intensified climate of fear, many ethnic Malay Muslim villagers turned to separatist militants to seek protection from imminent threats of blacklisting, arbitrary arrest, “disappearance,” and extrajudicial killing.⁴⁰

Under Thaksin’s instructions, Thai authorities responded to the quickly deteriorating situation with full force. Alongside massive mobilization of the security forces to the southern border provinces, on January 5, 2004, martial law was extended to cover every district of Pattani, Yala, and Narathiwat. Soldiers and police were authorized to search and arrest without a judicial warrant. Suspects arrested under martial law were now allowed to be detained for up to seven days without charge.

Thaksin assigned the police to take a leading role in key aspects of counterinsurgency operations—ranging from intelligence gathering and analysis to making arrests and conducting interrogations. A number of police investigation teams, led by the Crime Suppression Division (CSD), and army Special Warfare teams were dispatched to comb through villages, tadika, ponoh, private Islamic colleges, rubber plantations, orchards, and mountains in the southern border provinces in an attempt to recover the stolen weapons and capture those responsible for the January 4 raid. They quickly resorted to extrajudicial means and human rights violations to meet the deadlines and objectives set by Thaksin.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2007/thailand0807/5.htm

Edited February 19, 2013 by dcutman

[EyesWideOpen]

"I can say that the government resorted to gentle measures and did not use force in suppressing the protesters," Prime Minister Thaksin said. "They did a great job. They have my praise.''

Yeah I had forgotten that classic Thaksin line, thanks for bringing it back up. :-) Wait is he the one still running this government? That cannot bode well for the future....This statement is also somewhat at odds with video showing the soldiers being pretty quick to put the boot to anybody laying on the ground. But maybe that behavior is part of the mysterious Thainess......

I have traveled throughout the south by motorcycle, including the " restive " provinces. The entire area is a frigging war zone with checkpoints and machine gun emplacements everywhere. Somewhat amusing to me to see the Thai government pissing and moaning about a few square kilometers of land around Preah Vihear, when they in essence have lost thousands of square kilometers in the south.

The government has made a huge mistake by not prosecuting anyone involved in the Tak Bai massacre. They have in essence created the ultimate rallying point for the resistance there. And while the government has forgotten about this incident, I suspect the militants there have not......

Edited February 19, 2013 by EyesWideOpen

[theajarn]

This played out live on Thai Tv they were not gentle. Seeing how the last PM is being charged with murder while doing his duties I guess Big T will be next in line for doing his duties

Don't get your hopes up.

[jayboy]

http://www.hrw.org/r...iland0807/5.htm

I don't have problem with any of this Human Right Watch report so you are pushing at an open door.Thaksin's policies in the South were disastrous (as were those of his predecessors and successors).However the fact remains that the army officers responsible for the Tak Bai massacre remain unpunished, and indeed were found not guilty by a military court long after Thaksin had been deposed.

[philw]

http://www.hrw.org/r...iland0807/5.htm

I don't have problem with any of this Human Right Watch report so you are pushing at an open door.Thaksin's policies in the South were disastrous (as were those of his predecessors and successors).However the fact remains that the army officers responsible for the Tak Bai massacre remain unpunished, and indeed were found not guilty by a military court long after Thaksin had been deposed.

Yes and I think that is the salient point.

The Army is NEVER brought to justice, injustice ( by whoever side ) is not addressed and the cycle of violence gathers momentum.

[Moruya]

This, the war on drugs and kru se should all be on the list.

Do tell us, preferably with examples, what the National crackdown on drugs undertaken by the Thaksin administration has to do with the insurgency in the South?

Death at the hands of government forces.

[dcutman]

http://www.hrw.org/r...iland0807/5.htm

I don't have problem with any of this Human Right Watch report so you are pushing at an open door.Thaksin's policies in the South were disastrous (as were those of his predecessors and successors).However the fact remains that the army officers responsible for the Tak Bai massacre remain unpunished, and indeed were found not guilty by a military court long after Thaksin had been deposed.

So I would suppose your #9 is now void then?

Actually completely different since in 2010 Abhisit and Suthep were closely coordinating with and directing the military forces actions.Nobody seriously suggests Thaksin was directing the military's actions at Tak Bai - though the usual suspects will perhaps give it a go (they don't really value honesty)

[muttley]

This, the war on drugs and kru se should all be on the list.

Do tell us, preferably with examples, what the National crackdown on drugs undertaken by the Thaksin administration has to do with the insurgency in the South?

Death at the hands of government forces.

You may wish to take this on board from Part II of the Human Rights Report

"For more than a century the southern border provinces have been the scene of varying degrees of separatist activity rooted in the distinctive religious, ethnic, linguistic, cultural, and historical traits of the region"

But in the more recent past don't you think this might have a little more to do with it?

Declaration of Patani Darulsalam Fighters

Malayu Muslims of Patani Darulsalam

We, the fighters of Patani Darulsalam, have officially declared war with Siamese infidels since January 4, 2004. We will not stop until we can liberate our homeland. We raided their military camps, robbed their weapons, attacked their troops, and burned their schools. We will weaken them, and destroy them. To liberate Patani Darulsalam, we will fight to the end until we win our territory and sovereignty back from Siamese infidels.

There will be no negotiation with our enemy. We will not accept any compromise. We will not debate in the parliament. We have support from you, Malayu Muslims of Patani Darulsalam, and we are having advantage over Siamese infidels.

We will completely destroy the vices that corrupt our society of Malayu Muslims.

We will destroy the economic, political, and education system of Siamese infidels here.

We will destroy their military strength.

We will purge all Siamese infidels out of our territory to purify our religion and culture.

We will end the rule of Siamese infidels and return our territory to Malayu Muslims of Patani Darulsalam

We will deliver justice according to religious principles.

We will give lasting peace to Malayu Muslims of Patani Darulsalam.

We will establish our country, as a Muslim country, to be recognized internationally.

In doing all these objectives, we will be praised by God.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2007/thailand0807/5.htm

I don't think they support drugs either: "We will completely destroy the vices that corrupt our society of Malayu Muslims." though I am aware that the vices they refer to encompass a variety of "society corruptants" - take your pick.

[Nickymaster]

This incident truly showed Thaksin's utter disregard for human life-" They died because they were weak from fasting in Ramadan'' .

No one was punished for the 86 deaths.

Thaksin made a very big mistake when he abolished the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Centre (SBPAC), an organisation linking all participants in southern Thailand.

Thaksin's comments were certainly repellent but the primary guilty party was the Thai army, a rather crucial point which so far on this thread comments have managed to avoid mentioning.Predictably it seems that even in respect of this terrible tragedy some prefer to concentrate on Thaksin than on the criminal brutality of the army.

Thaksin agreed with the actions of the army, before AND after. He IS the primary guilty party.

The army was under Thaksin's control at the time:

Under Thaksin’s instructions, Thai authorities responded to the quickly deteriorating situation with full force. Alongside massive mobilization of the security forces to the southern border provinces, on January 5, 2004, martial law was extended to cover every district of Pattani, Yala, and Narathiwat. Soldiers and police were authorized to search and arrest without a judicial warrant. Suspects arrested under martial law were now allowed to be detained for up to seven days without charge.

http://www.hrw.org/r...iland0807/5.htm

THAT is the reason that many prefer to concentrate on Thaksin. And they are right.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Nickymaster

[Buchholz]

Before the Thaksin apologists get too carried away with historical revision and spin, it's worth noting that Thaksin was exerting control over the Army several years prior to the Tak Bai incident, going so far as appointing his cousin, Army General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, to become the Army Commander-in-Chief the year preceding the incident as well as jump promoting his brother-in-law Police General Priewpan to become Deputy National Police Chief.

In their quickness to assign all guilt exclusively to the Army while meanwhile completely ignore the heavy police involvement at Tak Bai (discernible by those in the first video of Post # 2 with the moniker "POLICE" emblazoned on their jackets as they rifle butt and kick in the head those already under their control). At the same feebly attempt to deflect Thaksin's involvement by falsely diminishing his role as the positional head of the government as well as his involvement with the having his government involved with the investigations that exonerated all involved.

Instead, the only concession offered up is a tepid condemnation of his outrageously demeaning comments before and after the incident, while completing ignoring any and all other aspects of his culpability.

Everyone involved from Thaksin on down to the army private or police corporal bashing an already restrained protester is culpable and responsible.

.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

"I can say that the government resorted to gentle measures and did not use force in suppressing the protesters," Prime Minister Thaksin said. "They did a great job. They have my praise.''

Yeah I had forgotten that classic Thaksin line, thanks for bringing it back up. :-) Wait is he the one still running this government? That cannot bode well for the future....

Yes, it's the same individual who at the time assigned a cousin and a brother-in-law to lead the Army and Police and who, nevermind the future, continues with nepotism in the present by having yet another cousin become the Foreign Minister that illegally issues him a new passport as well as having a sister sitting in the cloned position of Prime Minister.

This statement is also somewhat at odds with video showing the soldiers being pretty quick to put the boot to anybody laying on the ground. But maybe that behavior is part of the mysterious Thainess......

Worth remembering that hundreds of police were also involved with the soldiers maltreatment of detainees.

.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Buchholz

[Nickymaster]

Before the Thaksin apologists get too carried away with historical revision and spin, it's worth noting that Thaksin was exerting control over the Army several years prior to the Tak Bai incident, going so far as appointing his cousin, Army General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, to become the Army Commander-in-Chief the year preceding the incident as well as jump promoting his brother-in-law Police General Priewpan to become Deputy National Police Chief.

In their quickness to assign all guilt exclusively to the Army while meanwhile completely ignore the heavy police involvement at Tak Bai (discernible by those in the first video of Post # 2 with the moniker "POLICE" emblazoned on their jackets as they rifle butt and kick in the head those already under their control). At the same feebly attempt to deflect Thaksin's involvement by falsely diminishing his role as the positional head of the government as well as his involvement with the having his government involved with the investigations that exonerated all involved.

Instead, the only concession offered up is a tepid condemnation of his outrageously demeaning comments before and after the incident, while completing ignoring any and all other aspects of his culpability.

Everyone involved from Thaksin on down to the army private or police corporal bashing an already restrained protester is culpable and responsible.

.

Army General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, to become the Army Commander-in-Chief the year preceding the incident as well as jump promoting his brother-in-law Police General Priewpan to become Deputy National Police Chief.

Whooaw, that explains a lot. Thaksin really likes to have it all under his control.

[philw]

This incident truly showed Thaksin's utter disregard for human life-" They died because they were weak from fasting in Ramadan'' .

No one was punished for the 86 deaths.

Thaksin made a very big mistake when he abolished the Southern Border Provinces Administrative Centre (SBPAC), an organisation linking all participants in southern Thailand.

Thaksin's comments were certainly repellent but the primary guilty party was the Thai army, a rather crucial point which so far on this thread comments have managed to avoid mentioning.Predictably it seems that even in respect of this terrible tragedy some prefer to concentrate on Thaksin than on the criminal brutality of the army.

Thaksin agreed with the actions of the army, before AND after. He IS the primary guilty party.

The army was under Thaksin's control at the time:

Under Thaksin’s instructions, Thai authorities responded to the quickly deteriorating situation with full force. Alongside massive mobilization of the security forces to the southern border provinces, on January 5, 2004, martial law was extended to cover every district of Pattani, Yala, and Narathiwat. Soldiers and police were authorized to search and arrest without a judicial warrant. Suspects arrested under martial law were now allowed to be detained for up to seven days without charge.

http://www.hrw.org/r...iland0807/5.htm

THAT is the reason that many prefer to concentrate on Thaksin. And they are right.

Absolutely correct.

Fully agree, let's join forces and go after Thaksin, AV and Suthep, equally.

Do you agree ??

A indictments and judicial process for all three ??

[philw]

Before the Thaksin apologists get too carried away with historical revision and spin, it's worth noting that Thaksin was exerting control over the Army several years prior to the Tak Bai incident, going so far as appointing his cousin, Army General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, to become the Army Commander-in-Chief the year preceding the incident as well as jump promoting his brother-in-law Police General Priewpan to become Deputy National Police Chief.

In their quickness to assign all guilt exclusively to the Army while meanwhile completely ignore the heavy police involvement at Tak Bai (discernible by those in the first video of Post # 2 with the moniker "POLICE" emblazoned on their jackets as they rifle butt and kick in the head those already under their control). At the same feebly attempt to deflect Thaksin's involvement by falsely diminishing his role as the positional head of the government as well as his involvement with the having his government involved with the investigations that exonerated all involved.

Instead, the only concession offered up is a tepid condemnation of his outrageously demeaning comments before and after the incident, while completing ignoring any and all other aspects of his culpability.

Everyone involved from Thaksin on down to the army private or police corporal bashing an already restrained protester is culpable and responsible.

.

Not quite true, Mr B, I fully agree with your final statement and am pleased to see you finally approve of accountability.

Let's have some of that rare commodity ( accountability ) for all, including those responsible for the government actions in 2010 that lead to the death of more than a few unarmed civilians.

( you know, snipers and all that......)

What say you, to accountability for all ???

[jayboy]

Before the Thaksin apologists get too carried away with historical revision and spin, it's worth noting that Thaksin was exerting control over the Army several years prior to the Tak Bai incident, going so far as appointing his cousin, Army General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, to become the Army Commander-in-Chief the year preceding the incident as well as jump promoting his brother-in-law Police General Priewpan to become Deputy National Police Chief.

In their quickness to assign all guilt exclusively to the Army while meanwhile completely ignore the heavy police involvement at Tak Bai (discernible by those in the first video of Post # 2 with the moniker "POLICE" emblazoned on their jackets as they rifle butt and kick in the head those already under their control). At the same feebly attempt to deflect Thaksin's involvement by falsely diminishing his role as the positional head of the government as well as his involvement with the having his government involved with the investigations that exonerated all involved.

Instead, the only concession offered up is a tepid condemnation of his outrageously demeaning comments before and after the incident, while completing ignoring any and all other aspects of his culpability.

Everyone involved from Thaksin on down to the army private or police corporal bashing an already restrained protester is culpable and responsible.

.

Inevitably and as expected as I anticipated (see below)

"Nobody seriously suggests Thaksin was directing the military's actions at Tak Bai - though the usual suspects will perhaps give it a go (they don't really value honesty)"

I think most people would believe those primarily responsible for the Tak Bai massacre were those actively involved in it.I know you are obsessed with Thaksin but nobody that I can see is apologising for him, so your "tepid condemnation" comment is a mystery.I called his views repellent.

Anyway the primary criminals were from the military, and they were found not guilty by a military tribunal -long after Thaksin has disappeared from the scene - which you absurdly and without any evidence suggest was influenced by Thaksin's government.

If you are having difficulty grasping the point think about the My Lai massacre in Vietnam.The criminals were the US soldiers who committed the murders, not the President in the White House

[Buchholz]

Before the Thaksin apologists get too carried away with historical revision and spin, it's worth noting that Thaksin was exerting control over the Army several years prior to the Tak Bai incident, going so far as appointing his cousin, Army General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, to become the Army Commander-in-Chief the year preceding the incident as well as jump promoting his brother-in-law Police General Priewpan to become Deputy National Police Chief.

In their quickness to assign all guilt exclusively to the Army while meanwhile completely ignore the heavy police involvement at Tak Bai (discernible by those in the first video of Post # 2 with the moniker "POLICE" emblazoned on their jackets as they rifle butt and kick in the head those already under their control). At the same feebly attempt to deflect Thaksin's involvement by falsely diminishing his role as the positional head of the government as well as his involvement with the having his government involved with the investigations that exonerated all involved.

Instead, the only concession offered up is a tepid condemnation of his outrageously demeaning comments before and after the incident, while completing ignoring any and all other aspects of his culpability.

Everyone involved from Thaksin on down to the army private or police corporal bashing an already restrained protester is culpable and responsible.

I think most people would believe those primarily responsible for the Tak Bai massacre were those actively involved in it.I know you are obsessed with Thaksin but nobody that I can see is apologising for him

What you think most other people would believe is rather suspect and completely ignores the concepts of chain of command, powers (and responsibilities) of the highest elected officials, persons assigned by those highest elected officials to be put in position of power to direct the Army AND the police (who you conveniently omit from discussion).

The slow evolution of Thaksin apologists to Thaksin minimalists is noteworthy to a small degree. The continuation of those obsessed with calling others obsessed is unchanged.

Anyway the primary criminals were from the military, and they were found not guilty by a military tribunal -long after Thaksin has disappeared from the scene

my comments were in reference to Post # 12

General Sirichai Thanyasiri, who is in charge of the military command in the Muslim South, on Wednesday appointed senior government officials and army and police officers to determine whether any wrongdoing had been committed leading to the deaths of so many of the protesters in the Fourth Army's custody.

.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Buchholz

[Pimay1]

Before the Thaksin apologists get too carried away with historical revision and spin, it's worth noting that Thaksin was exerting control over the Army several years prior to the Tak Bai incident, going so far as appointing his cousin, Army General Chaiyasit Shinawatra, to become the Army Commander-in-Chief the year preceding the incident as well as jump promoting his brother-in-law Police General Priewpan to become Deputy National Police Chief.

In their quickness to assign all guilt exclusively to the Army while meanwhile completely ignore the heavy police involvement at Tak Bai (discernible by those in the first video of Post # 2 with the moniker "POLICE" emblazoned on their jackets as they rifle butt and kick in the head those already under their control). At the same feebly attempt to deflect Thaksin's involvement by falsely diminishing his role as the positional head of the government as well as his involvement with the having his government involved with the investigations that exonerated all involved.

Instead, the only concession offered up is a tepid condemnation of his outrageously demeaning comments before and after the incident, while completing ignoring any and all other aspects of his culpability.

Everyone involved from Thaksin on down to the army private or police corporal bashing an already restrained protester is culpable and responsible.

I think most people would believe those primarily responsible for the Tak Bai massacre were those actively involved in it.I know you are obsessed with Thaksin but nobody that I can see is apologising for him

What you think most other people would believe is rather suspect and completely ignores the concepts of chain of command, powers (and responsibilities) of the highest elected officials, persons assigned by those highest elected officials to be put in position of power to direct the Army AND the police (who you conveniently omit from discussion).

The slow evolution of Thaksin apologists to Thaksin minimalists is noteworthy to a small degree. The continuation of those obsessed with calling others obsessed is unchanged.

Anyway the primary criminals were from the military, and they were found not guilty by a military tribunal -long after Thaksin has disappeared from the scene

my comments were in reference to Post # 12

General Sirichai Thanyasiri, who is in charge of the military command in the Muslim South, on Wednesday appointed senior government officials and army and police officers to determine whether any wrongdoing had been committed leading to the deaths of so many of the protesters in the Fourth Army's custody.

.

Yep typical red double standards. I.E. Thaksin as PM was not responsible. But AV as PM is responsible.