Dutch Tourist In Chiang Mai Reports Forcible Sexual Assault From 2 Caucasian Men

[Pimay1]

The initial report was a rape, now it is a rape and a beating, and now the first guy whom she bonked consensually, is now being done for rape as well? Then of course there were the issue of times and the delays in everyone leaving (rapists usually don't hang around now do they?). This story keeps getting better and better. Let's all wait until all the facts are known. It could make a good Thai soap.

Only if there is a scream every 30 seconds.

[DP25]

The initial report was a rape, now it is a rape and a beating, and now the first guy whom she bonked consensually, is now being done for rape as well? Then of course there were the issue of times and the delays in everyone leaving (rapists usually don't hang around now do they?). This story keeps getting better and better. Let's all wait until all the facts are known. It could make a good Thai soap.

The first guy was consensual at first, but if he then invited his friends and aided in them raping her, then he is guilty as well.

[katana]

Quite a bit of additional details on the arrested suspects today, however, still no news from English news. Perhaps it will be published next week.

.

Yes, saw the story reported in the Thai press yesterday too, with pics etc (Matichon, Daily News etc)

Edited February 27, 2013 by katana

[barrybankruad]

Not saying that theaccusation is false in THIS case, but unfortunately cases do occur. Today's Mail reports the case of a British woman who has been gaoled for falsely claiming rape. Apparently she has done this ELEVEN times. See....

.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2284677/Compulsive-liar-cried-rape-11-times-jailed-Her-victim-innocent-man-simply-didnt-like-more.html

[Nisa]

The initial report was a rape, now it is a rape and a beating, and now the first guy whom she bonked consensually, is now being done for rape as well? Then of course there were the issue of times and the delays in everyone leaving (rapists usually don't hang around now do they?). This story keeps getting better and better. Let's all wait until all the facts are known. It could make a good Thai soap.

What facts are you waiting for? A conviction? Even those prove nothing to people who choose to disbelieve or choose not to view things in reality.

The initial report was a rape, now it is a rape and a beating, and now the first guy whom she bonked consensually, is now being done for rape as well?

Initial reports are just that and subsequent reports usually contain more details but I am not sure there are too many places in the world where you are going to get minute by minute updates of what transpired during a rape.

Although it baffles me to have to explain this but just because a women consents to sex with you once doesn't give you a green light to have sex with her in the future if she doesn't want it. Nor does it allow you to do things to her she doesn't want or invite others to join in if she doesn't want.

Then of course there were the issue of times and the delays in everyone leaving (rapists usually don't hang around now do they?

There is absolutely no issues of time as we don't know what time the other men arrived and we don't know how long they raped her. We only know what time they reported left (finished).

This story keeps getting better and better.

Only if you choose to see it this way.

As in every case of rape, murder and assault there is always a small chance the victim is lying but lets not pretend there has been anything reported to indicate she is lying. As always there is simply many things not being reported.

[Kooweerup]

This may be off topic but if I can tell a true story.

In 2006 a group of us came to Thailand for a holiday on Phuket. On the 2nd night we were out for dinner at a nice restuarant (party of 15 close friends) We left the restuarant at around 10 p.m to walk back to our hotel about 200 metres away.

Two of the girls aged 18 and 20 and daughters of a friend were about 100 metres in front of us and as we walked chatting the 20 yr old came running back towards us screaming and yelling that men had attacked them both. We ran forward and found two thai men had her in a siding one was holding her arms and the other was tearing at her clothing.

My mate the father of this girl gave the best kick into the rib section I have ever seen the guy appeared to have been lifted 12 feet into the air. The other guy was also laid flat on his arse by another mate. Both were held whilst the police arrived and a sexual assault report was made.

The police stated that my friends daughter was drunk and had consented to sex with the two thai guys. They said they had witnesses in the restuarant to this and even tho there were 14 of us that said that they did not drink, were totally sober and spoke to nobody but the dinner party was not enough, We were disbelieved.

The Thai guys were released without charge and my two friends were charged with assault on the Thais. Thier passports were siezed but were bailed on thier own undertaking to stay in the hotel. They had to plead guilty at court 4 days later and had to pay compensation to the victims and families totalling 250K baht and ordered to leave the country on the next flight.

Had they refused to plead guilty they were told that they could spend a yr in prison waiting for a hearing in court. They pleaded, coughed up and left.

[Nisa]

Amazing how many people want to believe that a 23-year old, after a night of drinking and choosing to go have consensual sex with a man she met, would then choose to invite this same man to call a couple friends over to gang bang her and then instead of chalking it up as a wild night out decides to say I did choose to have sex with the one man but then he had his friends come over and they all raped me. But who knows,maybe she gets off on telling the story. I am sure your mothers, wives and daughters could help tell you how at 23 they all yearned to be gang banged and then got off further by having to tell a story of being raped and have it be made public.

Anything is possible but the odds of these men didn't rape this women is considerably less than if they did. However, I would not be surprised if they didn't want to believe it was rape ... like appears to be the case with some posters here.

[chooka]

Amazing how many people want to believe that a 23-year old, after a night of drinking and choosing to go have consensual sex with a man she met, would then choose to invite this same man to call a couple friends over to gang bang her and then instead of chalking it up as a wild night out decides to say I did choose to have sex with the one man but then he had his friends come over and they all raped me. But who knows,maybe she gets off on telling the story. I am sure your mothers, wives and daughters could help tell you how at 23 they all yearned to be gang banged and then got off further by having to tell a story of being raped and have it be made public.

Anything is possible but the odds of these men didn't rape this women is considerably less than if they did. However, I would not be surprised if they didn't want to believe it was rape ... like appears to be the case with some posters here.

I understand what you are saying. Even if she had consensual sex with the 1st guy which is probable but if he then invites his mates over to have sex with her and she does not consent to them, they are guilty of rape and so is the 1st guy if he does nothing to stop them. Different of course if the guys are thais as in the rape of Scottish teacher. The alleged rapist brings his mates, he is charged and the mates watch and cheer him on but are not charged. Two different sets of law.

[Beetlejuice]

Amazing how many people want to believe that a 23-year old, after a night of drinking and choosing to go have consensual sex with a man she met, would then choose to invite this same man to call a couple friends over to gang bang her and then instead of chalking it up as a wild night out decides to say I did choose to have sex with the one man but then he had his friends come over and they all raped me. But who knows,maybe she gets off on telling the story. I am sure your mothers, wives and daughters could help tell you how at 23 they all yearned to be gang banged and then got off further by having to tell a story of being raped and have it be made public.

Anything is possible but the odds of these men didn't rape this women is considerably less than if they did. However, I would not be surprised if they didn't want to believe it was rape ... like appears to be the case with some posters here.

I understand what you are saying. Even if she had consensual sex with the 1st guy which is probable but if he then invites his mates over to have sex with her and she does not consent to them, they are guilty of rape and so is the 1st guy if he does nothing to stop them. Different of course if the guys are thais as in the rape of Scottish teacher. The alleged rapist brings his mates, he is charged and the mates watch and cheer him on but are not charged. Two different sets of law.

In both these cases, this is multiple rape, meaning concerning more than one assailant.

These men can be arrested, charged and declared guilty of rape just on the woman`s allegations if it is proven that sex took place and that she was inebriated at the time, regardless whatever the circumstances that lead up to the actually of having sexual intercourse.

Many Internationally, have been found guilty of rape, including some sportsmen and celebrities and now serving long sentences solely on the alleged rape victims allegations.

At first I had no idea how the law determines what is regarded as rape in these cases until it was brought to my attention in a previous thread.

It appears that the woman shares no responsibility for her own actions for what she does if under the influence of drink and drugs and the short answer is; have sex with an inebriated woman, whether she consents or not, than you are a rapist as defined by law.

This not a display of bias against women, only the facts as I know them, unless anyone knows otherwise and can put us straight on the subject?

Edited February 27, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[TommoPhysicist]

These men can be arrested, charged and declared guilty of rape just on the woman`s allegations if it is proven that sex took place and that she was inebriated at the time, regardless whatever the circumstances that lead up to the actually of having sexual intercourse.

Many Internationally, have been found guilty of rape, including some sportsmen and celebrities and now serving long sentences solely on the alleged rape victims allegations.

Not in Thailand, informed consent is only used by a few of the more extreme western countries.

I don't know of any Asian country that has any laws on informed consent.

Edited February 27, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[Arkady]

Not sure why the other two would want to commit a serious crime that could land them up sleeping on their sides without aircon and eating red rice for years when they are plenty of local women in Chiang Mai who will oblige for a small fee.

Have heard of Thai hookers complaining of this sort of thing with Subcontinental or Arab customers when they had a agreed to one but found half a dozen of them expecting to have a go in the apartment or hotel room. White guys doing it to a white girl - they should know better.

Legally it is probably going to be quite difficult to make the case, since she admitted consensual sex with one of them. Can they collect DNA evidence implicating the other two and, if so, prove that she refused sex with them? Most victims of this type of thing would probably not bother to go to the police. Not sure if she is brave or foolish. Time will tell but she is not likely to garner the type of sympathy the Dutch girl raped by the Evil Man from Krabi did.

[Arkady]

These men can be arrested, charged and declared guilty of rape just on the woman`s allegations if it is proven that sex took place and that she was inebriated at the time, regardless whatever the circumstances that lead up to the actually of having sexual intercourse.

Many Internationally, have been found guilty of rape, including some sportsmen and celebrities and now serving long sentences solely on the alleged rape victims allegations.

Not in Thailand, informed consent is only used by a few of the more extreme western countries.

I don't know of any Asian country that has any laws on informed consent.

It is pointless to speculate on the law is in Thailand or suggest how you think it should be. The relevant section of the Penal Code is thus:

"Section 276 Whoever has sexual intercourse with a

woman, who is not his wife, against her will, by threatening by any means

whatever, by doing any act of violence, by taking advantage of the

woman being in the condition of inability to resist, or by causing the

woman to mistake him for the other person, shall be punished with

imprisonment of four to twenty years and fined of eight thousand to

forty thousand Baht."

There is no specific reference to inebriation. While there is reference to impaired ability to resist, there is no implication regarding temporarily impaired judgment, except where the woman is deceived into believing she was having sex with someone else. A Thai court would not accept that a woman who willingly became inebriated and subsequently regretted a conscious decision to have sex with someone, however ill advised, could retroactively withdraw her consent.

Since Thailand is a civil law jurisdiction which relies on judges' interpretation of laws and ministerial regulations, rather than legal precedents as in Anglo-Saxon common law jurisdictions, what you see tends to be what you get, i.e. if it's not in the statutory law, it's not going to happen.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Arkady

[TheFishman1]

So she meets a guy go back to room and she drunk yep and she says one guy was o k and the other where not hm

[theblether]

The story sounds about right to me.......new in town, goes to Loi Kroh, has a few drinks, goes off to have a rumble with a guy she's met.

At this point so normal eh? We've all done that haven't we?? Had a few drinks and gone off for a one night stand??

She willingly makes love to Mr Thomas ( If I picked his name up correct ).......still so far so normal....

Then two of his pals turn up and decide they want to have intercourse, and she refuses.......not unbelievable to me......

So they go ahead and rape her

................................................................................................................................................................................................................

The Thaivisa Sherlock Holmes department then starts to examine the evidence and decide that the 8.00am timing is relevant......I'm with Nisa on this, no one knows ( from what I've seen so far ) what time they went to the room at, and no one knows what time the two guys turned up at.

If anyone thinks that all bars close in Chiang Mai at 1.00/2.00 am you're totally wrong, there are several bars that are open till the wee small hours, I often drink at Jacks Bar till 5.00 or 6.00am, you can drink at Lucky Bar virtually all night too. That's never mind the nights that Spicy get's left alone by the BiB and you can be there till all times in the morning. There are plenty of places to drink late in CM.

So unless you have some knowledge of the drinking establishments in CM give it a rest with the guesswork. You don't know when the guys arrived and how long the assault took place for.

.........................................................................................................................................................................................................

Setting that to the side, I hope the BiB actually investigate this allegation fully, there are too many reports of rapes and sexual assaults coming out from the Full Moon parties for example for it to be an urban legend. I get the impression that too many people arrive in Thailand and think it's the Wild West.

I lay you short odds that just about any bar girl of any experience can tell you some horror stories of personal experience.

It would be better for everyone if the police took allegations seriously and pursued rapists to conviction, there has to be a marker put down.

Alongside paedophiles, rapists are the scum of the earth.

[Beetlejuice]

These men can be arrested, charged and declared guilty of rape just on the woman`s allegations if it is proven that sex took place and that she was inebriated at the time, regardless whatever the circumstances that lead up to the actually of having sexual intercourse.

Many Internationally, have been found guilty of rape, including some sportsmen and celebrities and now serving long sentences solely on the alleged rape victims allegations.

Not in Thailand, informed consent is only used by a few of the more extreme western countries.

I don't know of any Asian country that has any laws on informed consent.

I have just done a few online searches and Thailand does have the law of Informed Consent.

There are several categories that fall under this law. For example: minors are considered not to be able to give informed consent for sex, so therefore under this law, having sex with a minor is considered as rape. Also included are mentally ill patients who refuse treatment, they too are considered as not being able to give informed consent and treatment maybe imposed upon them if it`s believed to be in their interests and beneficial for them. Same may apply to seriously ill people who refuse treatment.

Also it appears that the law of Informed Consent regarding sexual intercourse with persons under the influence of drink, drugs or intoxicating substances is regarded as rape in many countries. So as yet I am not convinced that this does not apply in Thailand, but have not been able to find anything so far.

Is there a lawyer in the house (maybe a sponsor) or someone in the know? As I would be very interested to learn what the actual state of affairs are in these cases?

[Buchholz]

Thai channel 3 had pictures of the Danes caught be polis 5 minutes ago.

There's a YouTube video of the Channel 3 news broadcast that details a number of the known facts in the case, but unfortunately it's not from an English language source.

.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Buchholz

[Nisa]

Amazing how many people want to believe that a 23-year old, after a night of drinking and choosing to go have consensual sex with a man she met, would then choose to invite this same man to call a couple friends over to gang bang her and then instead of chalking it up as a wild night out decides to say I did choose to have sex with the one man but then he had his friends come over and they all raped me. But who knows,maybe she gets off on telling the story. I am sure your mothers, wives and daughters could help tell you how at 23 they all yearned to be gang banged and then got off further by having to tell a story of being raped and have it be made public.

Anything is possible but the odds of these men didn't rape this women is considerably less than if they did. However, I would not be surprised if they didn't want to believe it was rape ... like appears to be the case with some posters here.

I understand what you are saying. Even if she had consensual sex with the 1st guy which is probable but if he then invites his mates over to have sex with her and she does not consent to them, they are guilty of rape and so is the 1st guy if he does nothing to stop them. Different of course if the guys are thais as in the rape of Scottish teacher. The alleged rapist brings his mates, he is charged and the mates watch and cheer him on but are not charged. Two different sets of law.

Seems like a desperate attempt to bash Thais/Thailand in a story about farangs gang raping another farang and then comparing it to another story where a Thai was arrested even though the women, who said she could identify the attackers, couldn't identify him and his saying it was consensual and his friend backing up this story and nobody involved or investigating suggesting the friend touched the women.

[Krataiboy]

"Does anyone known Mr Thomas?"

Not THE John Thomas, surely.

[Beetlejuice]

"Does anyone known Mr Thomas?"

Not THE John Thomas, surely.

You are awful, but I like you.

[SteeleJoe]

The initial report was a rape, now it is a rape and a beating, and now the first guy whom she bonked consensually, is now being done for rape as well? Then of course there were the issue of times and the delays in everyone leaving (rapists usually don't hang around now do they?). This story keeps getting better and better. Let's all wait until all the facts are known. It could make a good Thai soap.

What facts are you waiting for? A conviction? Even those prove nothing to people who choose to disbelieve or choose not to view things in reality.

The initial report was a rape, now it is a rape and a beating, and now the first guy whom she bonked consensually, is now being done for rape as well?

Initial reports are just that and subsequent reports usually contain more details but I am not sure there are too many places in the world where you are going to get minute by minute updates of what transpired during a rape.

Although it baffles me to have to explain this but just because a women consents to sex with you once doesn't give you a green light to have sex with her in the future if she doesn't want it. Nor does it allow you to do things to her she doesn't want or invite others to join in if she doesn't want.

Then of course there were the issue of times and the delays in everyone leaving (rapists usually don't hang around now do they?

There is absolutely no issues of time as we don't know what time the other men arrived and we don't know how long they raped her. We only know what time they reported left (finished).

This story keeps getting better and better.

Only if you choose to see it this way.

As in every case of rape, murder and assault there is always a small chance the victim is lying but lets not pretend there has been anything reported to indicate she is lying. As always there is simply many things not being reported.

I'm not sure how small the chance is that a victim of rape or assault would lie about being attacked. We know it does happen and I've read it's not as rare as one would like to think, but as you say we have at this time no reason to believe that this girl is lying and would be vile to presume without cause that an alleged victim of such a thing was lying about it.

Don't think too many murder victims lie about what happened to them...

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

[longtom]

Here we go again.

As mentioned in a previous thread regarding a Scottish girl allegedly gang raped in Pattaya, having sex with an intoxicated woman is considered as rape under the law, whether she consents or not.

The solution is for the guys: avoid getting involved in these situations, you`re playing a dangerous game and Russian roulette with your freedom.

1st: This is law in a few countries, certainly not all.

2nd: When a man and a woman have conscientious sex while intoxicated (let's assume they are equally 'pissed'), do you really find it OK when the woman next day can claim this as a rape?

[DocN]

So she meets a guy go back to room and she drunk yep and she says one guy was o k and the other where not hm

...and? You are saying....?

[TommoPhysicist]

Don't think too many murder victims lie about what happened to them...

Not true, they all jump off balconies.

[dighambara]

*Deleted post edited out*

Does anyone known Mr Thomas if they do they should report him the Police

Why are replies from some idiots deleted and others not ?

Agree - many idiotic replies were left - both pro & con.

This boils down to a he said, she said situation and can only be worked out via the police, which in Thailand are useless.

[ALFREDO]

Sickening !!!

Another sickening thing is some forum members' 'blaming-the-victim' attitude."

'blaming-the-victim' attitude'.

That is usual here on Thai visa regarding complaining of rape from women, special when alcohol is involved. Yes, sorry that!

[chooka]

*Deleted post edited out*

Does anyone known Mr Thomas if they do they should report him the Police

Why are replies from some idiots deleted and others not ?

Agree - many idiotic replies were left - both pro & con.

This boils down to a he said, she said situation and can only be worked out via the police, which in Thailand are useless.

who is Mr Thomas? What has he got to do with the topic and why should we report him to the police?

[ALFREDO]

So she got gang raped and then she passed out.

This part of the story doesn't add up. Who "passes out" after being in that situation?

Maybe if she was extremely drunk but then she would have passed out sometime before leaving the bar and those guys coming over.

I bet that part of the story changes to being drugged at some point, which just didn't happen.

"Who "passes out" after being in that situation?"

Tell us more exact details about your thoughts, =after, you experienced the same fate=, got (heavy) drunk and raped from three guys!

[ALFREDO]

Well I hope they catch the guys and if true they do a stretch in the Hilton. Why do farangs have to rape farang women in Thailand when they could pay a thai girl from a bar 100 baht.

-Chooka-

My friend, where is that place? Please share.

[Meetoo]

Amazing how many people want to believe that a 23-year old, after a night of drinking and choosing to go have consensual sex with a man she met, would then choose to invite this same man to call a couple friends over to gang bang her and then instead of chalking it up as a wild night out decides to say I did choose to have sex with the one man but then he had his friends come over and they all raped me. But who knows,maybe she gets off on telling the story. I am sure your mothers, wives and daughters could help tell you how at 23 they all yearned to be gang banged and then got off further by having to tell a story of being raped and have it be made public.

Anything is possible but the odds of these men didn't rape this women is considerably less than if they did. However, I would not be surprised if they didn't want to believe it was rape ... like appears to be the case with some posters here.

Nisa... WHERE exactly in the article does it say =" after a night of drinking and choosing to go have consensual sex with a man she met, would then choose to invite this same man to call a couple friends over to gang bang her"

She didn't "CHOOSE TO INVITE THIS SAME MAN TO CALL A COUPLE OF FRIENDS OVER TO GANG BANG HER" ...Please read the article again .. Eeesshh!!

[Nisa]

Amazing how many people want to believe that a 23-year old, after a night of drinking and choosing to go have consensual sex with a man she met, would then choose to invite this same man to call a couple friends over to gang bang her and then instead of chalking it up as a wild night out decides to say I did choose to have sex with the one man but then he had his friends come over and they all raped me. But who knows,maybe she gets off on telling the story. I am sure your mothers, wives and daughters could help tell you how at 23 they all yearned to be gang banged and then got off further by having to tell a story of being raped and have it be made public.

Anything is possible but the odds of these men didn't rape this women is considerably less than if they did. However, I would not be surprised if they didn't want to believe it was rape ... like appears to be the case with some posters here.

Nisa... WHERE exactly in the article does it say =" after a night of drinking and choosing to go have consensual sex with a man she met, would then choose to invite this same man to call a couple friends over to gang bang her"

She didn't "CHOOSE TO INVITE THIS SAME MAN TO CALL A COUPLE OF FRIENDS OVER TO GANG BANG HER" ...Please read the article again .. Eeesshh!!

Where exactly does it say I said this without chopping up my sentences and taking an entire post out of context? Please read my post again.