Fish Farming ... When It Goes Belly Up

[ozzydom]

Hi David, Yep it is hard to get a tiger to change its spots,about as hard as getting a Thai farmer to change their ways (even minutely).

Making guesstimates on cause of death of Ma,s Pla Nin based on visual (photo) is nigh impossible.

But judging by the bulging eyes alone I would suspect a nitrite bloom.

Of course in a perfect world ,water and fish samples would go to Inland Fisheries poste haste,but we know that is unlikely to happen.

Mortality from oxy depletion and nitrate can be confused as they both usually occur in the wee hours when oxygen is at its lowest.

Of course there are literally hundreds of bacterial infections that can cause mortality,Streptococcus is regularly the culprit, it can either be in the form of acute septisemia or chronic which attacks the central nervous system.

Many of these bacteria are present in pond water but it usually takes a trigger to make them dangerous, trigger can be ,over-crowding,poor water quality,high Nitrate levels.

Most years there are mortality problems somewhere in thailand ,Pla Nin and Tabtim are the main victims.its just a matter of who suffers it.

During the big fish kill about 4 years ago samples were sent to the biggest and best laboratories around the world without a definite cause being found as there were so many possible causes found in the samples.

In your particular case ,I would suggest getting the family to do a partial water change and hit the pond with all the aeration they can muster 24/7 for a period and hope for the best, improving the water quality would be my main project.

[IsaanAussie]

OK guys, riddle me this.....

I want to grow as much fish mass as possible as fast as possible. I want to harvest them for fish meal. So ideally spend as little on the process as possible. The pond is approx 600 sq metres and varies seasonally between 500mm to 3 metres deep. I also grow water plants and algae on the pond so the water is fertilised.

So what to do????

[David48]

IA ... I'll have to defer to the others for the answer as it falls outside my experiences.

One thing you didn't quantify was the input costs, which relates to feed/conversion ratio.

Maybe od or RBH ...

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[David48]

Eliminate nitrite = solution is Salt.

Neutralize bad bacteria = solution is EM.

Once every week, i salt my pond, 1 sack of salt per 800sqm pond size.

Once every month, i apply EM to all my pond, activated EM in 2 x 200 litre blue PVC barrel per pond.

Fight chemical with chemistry, fight bacteria with bacteria, fight fire with fire.

Some point of interest for rearing in tank

Where the gf's Fish Farm is near the Gulf of Thailand so I presume that the water is already brackish ... though I will sought to have it tested next time.

I remember too well applying salt to the pool and testing the salinity level after it's dissolved.

Do you test the salinity level in your ponds?

If so ... what is the range you try and stay between?

Would there be a difference between your catfish and say the Pla Nin the Fish Farm here produces?

About the EM ... I know little of it. Just remember the balls trying to be used to control the harmful effects after the floods a few years back.

I'm not asking you for a 3 page thesis on the benefits to the ponds health with using them, but is there anything that you have relied on from the internet that you can flick me the link for so that I can increase my knowledge in that area?

RedBullHorn ... as always ...

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[ozzydom]

OK guys, riddle me this.....

I want to grow as much fish mass as possible as fast as possible. I want to harvest them for fish meal. So ideally spend as little on the process as possible. The pond is approx 600 sq metres and varies seasonally between 500mm to 3 metres deep. I also grow water plants and algae on the pond so the water is fertilised.

So what to do????

Geez IA,Sounds like you want to win the lottery but dont wanna buy a ticket.

Seriously,the plants and algae are going to restrict you oxygen as they darken the pond water. Mass and growth of any fish is governed by their protein intake.

Maybe one of the carp species would come closest to fitting your criteria as they are mainly mud sifters and tolerate poor conditions.

[ozzydom]

David 48, Tilapia can tolerate 15 parts per 1000 salt which is about 50% the saltiness of ocean water (seawater is 3.2% salt).or about 32 grams per litre.

A 1rai pond x1metre deep holds about 1.5 million litres,so you can see that it takes a lot of salt to alter the salinity in a pond.

One of the problems I see with large pond operations such as your "outlaws" have is that all your eggs are in the one basket and when problems arise it can have disastrous results,it just isnt feasible to effect medication and to do water adjustments in a 19,million litre pond takes time which can be crucial.

Normally ponds are pumped dry then lime dusted and allowed to dry out for a couple of months before refilling and restocking and every two years a few inches of the ponds bottom should be removed after drying.(this helps remove the build up of ammonia and nitrites)

With multiple ponds this can be done in rotation but with a big pond it means all production just ceases.

As RBH says EM can be another aid ,normally its administered at 1:10,000 per month but some prawn farms use 1:1000 weekly so it can be expensive.

One of the beauties of EM is that you can activate and multiply it yourself,its a bit like brewing beer.

[David48]

Donald, How many fish do you have in each pond?

There must be thousands as they reproduce good each year. Just way to many little ones and not very many big ones.

... your only answer is to remove all fish and water,poison to clean up any straggling fry,then refill and restock with mono-sex fry or fingerlings and start again.

Just wanted to make sure Donald read one of the very important bit that ozzydom wrote ...

All the commercial operations that I know of that deal with pla nin (tilapia) raise and harvest single sex (male) fish.

[RedBullHorn]

Excellent post by Ozzy,

Here's a couple of links from other farming threads in regards to EM culture.

EM Introduction

EM read

[IsaanAussie]

Oz, I have purchased all the lottery tickets I can afford, but a win would be nice as unlikely as it seems. I have catfish in it at the moment but I need to increase the numbers not the size of the individuals. Ultimately I will put some shallow long pools to grow the algae, duckweed and azolla type stuff and use that as a filtration system for the main pool. Then I have have some "real fish". But that will have to wait for that lottery win

[IsaanAussie]

A few points on EM. The primary component in most brews is Lactic Acid Bacteria. As a acid it will lower the pH of the water so be careful of temptation to use too much. It is also a steriliser so will aid in eliminating the nasties in the water.

[IsaanAussie]

Got a call before so a bit more. RBH's link says there should be white "flakes" on the surface of expanded EM. Correct but they are not flakes they are yeast. Commercial EM has three constituents, LAB, a photosynthetic bacteria that can work better in anaerobic conditions, and yeast or a fungus. This is EM1 and works in aerobic environments the best, and there are 4 other commercial brews sold by the same company for other applications. What is sold is no "mother culture" it is stabilised with molasses first giving it the shelf life it needs. When you have cut it again with molasses and water you will have probably upset the balance between the three primary parts and trying to brew or extend it further will give uncertain results.

It has been my experience that the normal commercial EM work but when you tailor "brew" to suit a particular application the effect is much better. Thailand is a leader in production of EM globally and there are a number of companies that brew all sorts. Mine works in the septic tanks as well as with the pigs and compost, but I have another brew that is much better for that one application.

"All EM's are not created equal!"

Made a few additions above and added ...

One thing I forgot, if your extended EM is giving off gas it is not ready for use as was stated in the link. The bacteria is still decomposing the basic sugars in the molasses and is yet to stabilise. Wait until the gasing stops.

[sjefrie]

Small video about how to prepare EM Activated Solution

http://apnan.blogspot.nl/2009/07/how-to-make-em-activated-solution-emas.html

[IsaanAussie]

Something I think about. Sometimes through out of balance fish die, fact. Then what do you do? The dogs won't even eat them. So what happens to them?

[RedBullHorn]

My way :

1 litre of EM1

1 litre of Molasses

18 litre of water

(Stir the molasses first with some of the 18 litre water, preferably with your hand to feel)

Total 20 litre (you can use the washing powder pail, it comes with a lid)

Ferment for 5-7 days, fill up 20 bottle (1 litre)

Shelf life in a dark cabinet is 6 months

EM-A:

Use a 100 litre PVC barrel

Take a bottle of your brew (above),

add 1 litre of molasses (stirred),

Top water up to the rim of the 100 litre PVC barrel,

wait for 24 hours, then use the application.

Shelf life is only good for 7 days, mix just enough to last.

Double up if using 200 litre PVC barrel.

[IsaanAussie]

RBH, I hear you, but why bother the effect past your first step. That is EMA, the 20 litre mix. Hey if it works great but too much "if" past that point. Keep it concentrated and mix to suit......

I have 2 two hundred litre IA-EM brew tanks. It is "mother culture", the real deal. Guess what I feed it since its prime purpose is the elimination (not reduction) of pig odour problems? What else, pig food!

If I want to make EM as is on the market, I decant 1/2 litre of my EM and another of Molasses and seal the litre bottle. It has a shelf life of three years at normal temperature (out of the sun). These we have a very limited market for locally and sell at 45 baht per litre. Got to be under the cheapest game in town which is a clone of EMRO Japan's real EM (with the green dots) at 90 baht here.

For me I decant a litre of culture into every 1000 litre water tank every fill or part fill. To use it on the compost, 1 litre straight into a 20 litre back pack. Each cubic metre would get 2 litres of EM. This we use for the pigs drinking water, the wash water and to water the gardens. Everything gets it, even me.

[RedBullHorn]

I know you brew, i believe in your brew too. My brew attract flies, yours doesn't.

If the price you offered on our last Email still stand. I'll will buy your probiotic by the cartons load (you know i will )

[RedBullHorn]

Something I think about. Sometimes through out of balance fish die, fact. Then what do you do? The dogs won't even eat them. So what happens to them?

Act of God (land Divinity) didn't offer enough during the last rite.

[RedBullHorn]

In EM culture, there's a saying... " Whether you mix it right or got it wrong, there's no harm done, results are always on the positive side."

[RedBullHorn]

RBH, I hear you, but why bother the effect past your first step. That is EMA, the 20 litre mix. Hey if it works great but too much "if" past that point. Keep it concentrated and mix to suit......

I have 2 two hundred litre IA-EM brew tanks. It is "mother culture", the real deal. Guess what I feed it since its prime purpose is the elimination (not reduction) of pig odour problems? What else, pig food!

If I want to make EM as is on the market, I decant 1/2 litre of my EM and another of Molasses and seal the litre bottle. It has a shelf life of three years at normal temperature (out of the sun). These we have a very limited market for locally and sell at 45 baht per litre. Got to be under the cheapest game in town which is a clone of EMRO Japan's real EM (with the green dots) at 90 baht here.

For me I decant a litre of culture into every 1000 litre water tank every fill or part fill. To use it on the compost, 1 litre straight into a 20 litre back pack. Each cubic metre would get 2 litres of EM. This we use for the pigs drinking water, the wash water and to water the gardens. Everything gets it, even me.

The highlight part is my first step (from my post above your) which i expanded the EM1 "mother culture" and bottled.

EM-A is when i use the bottle as application like how you would to your water tank.

Your method is 1/2 litre for a litre bottle concentrate... mine is 1 litre for 20 "1 litre" bottles and no molasses added.

yours shelf life is 3 years... mine's only 6 months. ( i use very fast and furious )

Steps are the same, but your's better, longer shelf life due to its concentration.

Not confuse...

In term of market value ( your method of 1/2 litre for a litre bottle concentrate) = ฿250/litre bottle (retail price)

[IsaanAussie]

3 answers in 1...

First the 45 baht rate is using reclaimed coke bottles. If you want it lets talk offline, but pigs and fish are different and as a friend I have to admit whilst this one seems to work for my few mega-sized catfish,all I can guarantee is it is better than the EMRO stuff. Generally, if anyone else is interested drop me a PM.

The dead fish issue, what does happen to them? This is a valuable resource, fish meal is expensive. I am at a loss.

The last one and an important one is the issue of more is better. Absolutely not! Spend some time googling "Korean Natural Farming" and don't stop at EMRO's efforts here in Thailand. Dig deeper, much deeper. Indigenous micro-organics not just effective ones. This is a complex subject just as nature is. The easy bits are brewing EM using nothing but the wash-water from your own rice, or your banana peels for the starting point. But the answer each of us look for must suit the application we have, and fit the depth of our pockets. Despite all that, if it doesn't co-exist on your farm with everything else then it is not sustainable and is just another fad.

[RedBullHorn]

Now that's "Fast and Furious"

[RedBullHorn]

The initial part is to get hold of a litre of commercial EM... How you would develop it, what you'd feed it, how you would to expand it, it's all up to you R&D.

[IsaanAussie]

There are two options, you either brew it or you buy it. My brewing system didn't just fall out of the sky. It cost a lot (for me) and is not yet recovered capital. I share what I can but some things I have a very vested interest in holding back. I hope you all can understand that. This is not a spend 50 baht and go from there situation, this is serious 5 figure investment and two years hard work. I may be open and sharing, I may be cheap, but i am not free.and excuse me but far from stupid.

[David48]

I may be open and sharing, I may be cheap, but i am not free.and excuse me but far from stupid.

... and I am sure that you are also a hansome man also.

Not ... you would even be more handsome in a personally tailored suit, my cousin Rahul, is just the man for you. His fine tailoring skills can turn you from 'Hello Hansom Man' into 'Hello Very Hansom Man ... my two younger sisters are free for you tonight' ...

IA ... please forgive my lame attempt at some humour and brevity.

Actually you have provided, for me, the perfect opportunity to complete the media and story to be told.

Below ...

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[David48]

Something I think about. Sometimes through out of balance fish die, fact. Then what do you do? The dogs won't even eat them. So what happens to them?

Mate ... I owe you a beer for asking that lead - in question ...

Nothing is wasted at the Farm ... you'll hear me actually say that on another thread soon about Dr Fish

The Farm Mother would collect the Fish on almost a daily basis and then cook them.

Using charcoal for fuel, she would cook them outside.

After a few days of doing this, she simply bought them inside and cooked them up on the family stove.

The smell ... unbelievable.

For those with a weak constitution ... don't play the next clip ...

From that

To this ...

Long slow cooking which will kill the pathogens and viruses etc ... and my appetite with the smell that emanates from the kitchen.

The fish meal is then re-feed back to the fish.

Maybe she is creating the first 'mad fish' disease!

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[DonaldBattles]

Ozzydon: Many thanks for your information. As soon as I can get some help I will thin the fish out. Is it possible to buy fry that are makes only?

[IsaanAussie]

So the answer Dave, is you "Cook the guts out of it!" as my father used to say? Does she hand out napkins when the fish are fed?

Handsome man? Me? Stop blowing smoke up my rear end and use it to cook your fish

[ozzydom]

Ozzydon: Many thanks for your information. As soon as I can get some help I will thin the fish out. Is it possible to buy fry that are makes only?

DB,I would reccommend you contact Nam Sai Farms regarding mono-sex Pla Nin fry or fingerlings,they have facilities at Prachinburi and another near Kanchaburi, they also have agents around Thailand..

I would avoid using Government hatchery fry, we tried them 3 times early on and ended with the same results you have now,which cost us dearly.The fry had obviously not received the proper testosterone treatment to facilitate the sex change.

The result was ponds full of baby Pla Nin.

The first time it occurred ,we persevered and thinned them out then threw copious quantities of food at the remainder,all to no avail, we ended up selling the ones that got to 300 gram at discount and pumped out the ponds and buried the rest.

The last two times I did not persevere,as soon as the problem was noticed the ponds were emptied and started afresh.

You might think I am a slow learner but the second and third catastrophes were because the fisheries officers who came to verify the problem provided the new fry free, saying the problem had been solved,but it had not.

[David48]

^^ od ... a shame to hear of your story about buying non-monosex fish and the government insistence that the problem had been solved.

A proper waste of time, money and opportunity.

The Farm buys privately from what I understand ... though I haven't been to the hatchery.

I did however, go to the Prawn Hatchery ... and have a complete set of media including interviews with MissFarmGirl ... for a future thread.

Maybe this thread is a good conduit for reporting the fish horror stories if and when they happen.

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[DonaldBattles]

This is very valuable information and I thank Ozzydom for it. Not sure how long it will take me to get to the bottom of this situation by will start by catching as many fish as I can that are 4-6 inches and disposing of them. In order to buy only male fry it would be difficult for me to get the other provinces. I will inquire at the local Fisheries Farm and see what they have to say.