Using Bleach For Shocking

[farang000999]

no reason at all to use those chlorine tabs, only liquid chlorine.

if you have a chlorinator the tablets are convenient. i use liquid chlorine too but i pump it.

The tablets raise the CYA level of your pool and the only way to lower it is to dump water out of the pool and add new water unless people have access to well water like yourself mentioned.

[Naam]

So what do you mean by "you should not" ? The maths works. When did you use household bleach in your pool to know the ph value?

i did not refer to bleach. the maths does not work because because you don't know what kind of chlorine tablets you buy in Thailand. several years ago i bought tablets for our water tanks (imported from China) which were not the usual slow dissolving one but dissolved in no time. turned out they were just pressed granular chlorine with a high pH without the usual additives. add to this the exaggerated price of tablets to experience zero advantage.

The maths doesn't have to be perfect, the fact is one is ph low and the other high, by a process of trial and error you will be able to monitor the resultant and adjust accordingly, if necessary.

It seems the best way to buy PH+ is to form a cooperative, buy a big bag and share it out, it sin't a hazardous chemical is it?.Buy a 50kg bag and put it into 10off 5kg empty tubs left over from chlorine, at 80 baht a tub. I'm game. Cheaper than 450baht.

there... there... AllanB! we could also collect empty softdrink cans...

[AllanB]

So what do you mean by "you should not" ? The maths works. When did you use household bleach in your pool to know the ph value?

i did not refer to bleach. the maths does not work because because you don't know what kind of chlorine tablets you buy in Thailand. several years ago i bought tablets for our water tanks (imported from China) which were not the usual slow dissolving one but dissolved in no time. turned out they were just pressed granular chlorine with a high pH without the usual additives. add to this the exaggerated price of tablets to experience zero advantage.

The maths doesn't have to be perfect, the fact is one is ph low and the other high, by a process of trial and error you will be able to monitor the resultant and adjust accordingly, if necessary.

It seems the best way to buy PH+ is to form a cooperative, buy a big bag and share it out, it sin't a hazardous chemical is it?.Buy a 50kg bag and put it into 10off 5kg empty tubs left over from chlorine, at 80 baht a tub. I'm game. Cheaper than 450baht.

there... there... AllanB! we could also collect empty softdrink cans...

Through the ring pull hole...I don't think you have thought this one through properly.

I know it stinks a bit of communism, but a 800% markup for putting it in a plastic tub is a bit excessive, not to mention a waste of plastic when the substance is non hazardous. But judging by a lot of the stuff on the market for pools, not untypical, maybe they think if you have a pool you are posh and mug enough to pay anything, especially if it has a smart label.

Or maybe you are right, I am just a cheapskate....

Edited April 10, 2013 by AllanB

[Naam]

I know it stinks a bit of communism, but a 800% markup for putting it in
a plastic tub is a bit excessive, not to mention a waste of plastic
when the substance is non hazardous. But judging by a lot of the stuff
on the market for pools, not untypical, maybe they think if you have a
pool you are posh and mug enough to pay anything, especially if it has a
smart label.

that was always the case but worst case scenario is if you have a boat. then a 10cent screw or nut will be 4.95 plus tax.

[tollgate]

no reason at all to use those chlorine tabs, only liquid chlorine.

if you have a chlorinator the tablets are convenient. i use liquid chlorine too but i pump it.

The tablets raise the CYA level of your pool and the only way to lower it is to dump water out of the pool and add new water unless people have access to well water like yourself mentioned.

Chlorine tabs have their uses. Eg, when away from my pool for a few days they are a convenient source of chlorine (with the side affect of raising cya). Also, when cya is required, they are a convenient source of both cya and chlorine. Of course tabs also reduce pH, so it's important to monitor this as well.

[tollgate]

"(Cyaunauric Acid)probably needs to be in the range 60 - 80 ppm here in Thailand".

I will be very happy if that view is correct, Tollgate, as my pool had reached 90+ and I had to replace 25% of my water to get it down to 70 (my pool is 20 months old, treated with chlorine powder with CYA stabiliser and presumably rose from near 0 to 90+ over that period, despite rainy season dilutions.

I had however read somewhere recently that there is no point keeping your CYA above 20% and the attached article seems to support that - "The graph shows very little difference in stabilization from 25 to 100 ppm CA". The tests seem to have been done in a hot climate but maybe we are even more exposed to UV here.

I was looking forward to my levels dropping much lower when I switch to salt water chlorination and the rainy season starts, but if you have other authoritative advice that suggests 60-80 then maybe I'll need to add CYA occasionally.

I read that there can be adverse effects of too high a level of CYA on pool tile grouting, but maybe the higher level (in your 60-80 range) is not damaging enough to worry about.

That pdf file makes interesting reading. Time to do some more research I think.

[Chaichara]

The swimming pool repackagers are making a killing. Soda ash should be dirt cheap. I bought a 25 kg sack of soda ash in Jomtien 2 years ago (of which I have used 2 kg - my pool tends to need acid; I'm pretty sure it was les than 500baht - anyone passing my way in Kantharalak is welcome to buy a few kg pro-rata!).

I see that Pool Doctors in Bangkok sell 50kg for 800 baht. Presumably the big lad to hump it out of your car at home might be extra!

Edit: just gone and looked at my sack to see if it says anything in Thai. It's actually a 40kg sack and its made in China and labelled in English. Knowing how little sophistication there is to pool maintenance in Thailand I suspect that the only places you will buy it are English speaking anyway. The pool shop has scrawled something in Thai on the back of the sack. I'll ask my wife if its says anything useful when she returns with the hoardes of kids for a swimming pool party later this afternoon. Must go out there now and transfer some water from the pool to reserve and hide anything of value like my fins and goggles

Some stores and online stores sell Soda Ash for around baht 980 for 50 Kg. Smaller quantities such as 5 Kg tubs are of course more expensive due to the repackaging in plastic tubs and relabeling it as 'pH Plus'. The cheapest price I found online recently was baht 350 for a 5 Kg tub, but I've seen it in some pool shops for a ridiculous baht 850! Probably only the owners of large or commercial pools would want to buy the 25 Kg or 50 Kg sacks.

[AllanB]

Having given up on bleach for economic reasons, I have been using only shock chlorine for the past 3 weeks, which I understood to be PH neutral. I followed the instructions, but due to the slight algae problems following the 2 week stagnant water situation during a pool modification, I upped the dosage.

Although I have added nothing for 7 days apart from pump time, I still have a chlorine level in excess of 3ppm and a PH of around 8.

1. I thought shock chlorine was short lasting and it doesn't seem to be dropping at all.

2. I thought shock chlorine was PH neutral, of not slight acidic.

On the basis that shock chlorine is PH+ and pucks are PH- a combination should = balance.

So, before I start experimenting, does anyone know the ratio to achieve this balance?

Edited May 19, 2013 by AllanB

[tollgate]

Hi Allen

Is your shock chlorine labelled? Does it say what it actually contains?

I am surprised you have given up on bleach as it is usually the cheapest way to sanitise a pool.

[AllanB]

Hi Allen

Is your shock chlorine labelled? Does it say what it actually contains?

I am surprised you have given up on bleach as it is usually the cheapest way to sanitise a pool.

I couldn't find anywhere locally to buy it in bulk, so it wasn't economic.

I bought the shock from JDPools, clearly labeled, I have a roof on my pool, so can't blame the rain, I am really puzzled.

I even checked the test equipment on someone else's pool and it is fine, in fact two other pools..

[tollgate]

Ah, yes, I think I can recall a previous post where you said bleach is difficult to buy at a reasonable price.

Does the shock label say what the ingredients are?

[AllanB]

Ah, yes, I think I can recall a previous post where you said bleach is difficult to buy at a reasonable price.

Does the shock label say what the ingredients are?

Not a thing, just some rather obscure instructions, which is about right for them.

Am I right in assuming that shock normally PH neutral?

I am off to the UK in a month or so and will bring back an automatic chlorine feeder, http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=chlorine+feeder&_sacat=0&_from=R40 cheap to buy reliable, nice and simple.

I raised the point on another thread that I thought salt water chlorinators are really bad news, I know they are expensive to buy and was pretty sure that the salt water is abrasive too, this was confirmed when I looked at my mate's 2 year old fiberglass pool, which has no glaze at all left under the waterline and a white streak around the waterline. Contrast this to another friend's 8 year old fiberglass pool, which is immaculate and runs granular chlorine. The other problem is reliability, the sensor keeps getting contaminated and crates a low salt alarm and the whole caboodle has a life expectancy of 4 years. I don't know how long a $40 chlorine feeder lasts, but at least as long and one tenth the price and trouble.

Then I had a swim in the salt water pool and didn't like it at all, plus I had a lot of small flying insects around my face, which seem to like the salt but hate chlorine. So, for me, no rereading features at all.

Simple is best...

Edited May 19, 2013 by AllanB

[jbrain]

Having given up on bleach for economic reasons, I have been using only shock chlorine for the past 3 weeks, which I understood to be PH neutral. I followed the instructions, but due to the slight algae problems following the 2 week stagnant water situation during a pool modification, I upped the dosage.

Although I have added nothing for 7 days apart from pump time, I still have a chlorine level in excess of 3ppm and a PH of around 8.

1. I thought shock chlorine was short lasting and it doesn't seem to be dropping at all.

2. I thought shock chlorine was PH neutral, of not slight acidic.

On the basis that shock chlorine is PH+ and pucks are PH- a combination should = balance.

So, before I start experimenting, does anyone know the ratio to achieve this balance?

Never seen Ph neutral chlorine in Thailand. The Winchlor or Panda 90 % chlorine powder or granules sold have a Ph of around 12 and are sold at 1750 and 2050 Baht respectively for 25 Kg.

[AllanB]

Having given up on bleach for economic reasons, I have been using only shock chlorine for the past 3 weeks, which I understood to be PH neutral. I followed the instructions, but due to the slight algae problems following the 2 week stagnant water situation during a pool modification, I upped the dosage.

Although I have added nothing for 7 days apart from pump time, I still have a chlorine level in excess of 3ppm and a PH of around 8.

1. I thought shock chlorine was short lasting and it doesn't seem to be dropping at all.

2. I thought shock chlorine was PH neutral, of not slight acidic.

On the basis that shock chlorine is PH+ and pucks are PH- a combination should = balance.

So, before I start experimenting, does anyone know the ratio to achieve this balance?

Never seen Ph neutral chlorine in Thailand. The Winchlor or Panda 90 % chlorine powder or granules sold have a Ph of around 12 and are sold at 1750 and 2050 Baht respectively for 25 Kg.

So, are Winchlor and Panda shock chlorine treatments? The long lasting chlorine products have a low PH, due to the presence of Cyanic acid. if I have that right.

[jbrain]

Having given up on bleach for economic reasons, I have been using only shock chlorine for the past 3 weeks, which I understood to be PH neutral. I followed the instructions, but due to the slight algae problems following the 2 week stagnant water situation during a pool modification, I upped the dosage.

Although I have added nothing for 7 days apart from pump time, I still have a chlorine level in excess of 3ppm and a PH of around 8.

1. I thought shock chlorine was short lasting and it doesn't seem to be dropping at all.

2. I thought shock chlorine was PH neutral, of not slight acidic.

On the basis that shock chlorine is PH+ and pucks are PH- a combination should = balance.

So, before I start experimenting, does anyone know the ratio to achieve this balance?

Never seen Ph neutral chlorine in Thailand. The Winchlor or Panda 90 % chlorine powder or granules sold have a Ph of around 12 and are sold at 1750 and 2050 Baht respectively for 25 Kg.

So, are Winchlor and Panda shock chlorine treatments? The long lasting chlorine products have a low PH, due to the presence of Cyanic acid. if I have that right.

I don't think these chlorines have Cya added.

My understanding of shocking is not about the duration of high chlorine presence but that you add the right amount of fast dissolving free chlorine in a chemical process which removes all chloramines or combined chlorine present in your pool.

My understanding is also that you should manually lower the PH in your pool prior to shocking to accommodate for the higher PH you're adding in chlorine form.

http://www.underwaterstuff.com/definitions.htm

BREAKPOINT CHLORINATION: A term which refers to adding chlorine in sufficient amounts to assure the complete removal of ALL of the Combined Chlorine (Chloramines) present in a body of water. It is generally accepted that in order to achieve "Breakpoint Chlorination", one must add an amount of Free Chlorine to the water which is equal to 10 times the amount of Combined Chlorine present. (EXAMPLE: Let's assume that we are wishing to achieve Breakpoint Chlorination in a backyard pool containing 20,000 gallons of water. After testing the water with a good DPD test kit or test strip, we determine that the combined chlorine content of the water is 1.0 PPM. Our choice of chlorine for "Super Chlorinating" purposes to achieve "Breakpoint" is Sodium Hypochlorite, aka: Liquid Chlorine (10-12% Available Chlorine) We know from reading the label on the container that in order to achieve 1 PPM in our 20,000 gal pool, we will need to add approximately 25 oz.; but since we need to add 10 times the amount of Combined Chlorine present (which was 1 PPM) we will need to add 10 times this amount, or 250 oz. Since there is 128 oz. in a gallon, this would mean that 2 gallons would be the required amount in order to achieve Breakpoint Chlorination.) Note: When ever determining how much is the proper amount of chlorine to be used, it is ALWAYS better to error on the side of adding too much than adding too little! If "Breakpoint" is not achieved, it will usually make the problems associated with having "Chloramines" present, only worse!

[tollgate]

Ah, yes, I think I can recall a previous post where you said bleach is difficult to buy at a reasonable price.

Does the shock label say what the ingredients are?

Not a thing, just some rather obscure instructions, which is about right for them.

Am I right in assuming that shock normally PH neutral?

I am off to the UK in a month or so and will bring back an automatic chlorine feeder, http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=chlorine+feeder&_sacat=0&_from=R40 cheap to buy reliable, nice and simple.

I raised the point on another thread that I thought salt water chlorinators are really bad news, I know they are expensive to buy and was pretty sure that the salt water is abrasive too, this was confirmed when I looked at my mate's 2 year old fiberglass pool, which has no glaze at all left under the waterline and a white streak around the waterline. Contrast this to another friend's 8 year old fiberglass pool, which is immaculate and runs granular chlorine. The other problem is reliability, the sensor keeps getting contaminated and crates a low salt alarm and the whole caboodle has a life expectancy of 4 years. I don't know how long a $40 chlorine feeder lasts, but at least as long and one tenth the price and trouble.

Then I had a swim in the salt water pool and didn't like it at all, plus I had a lot of small flying insects around my face, which seem to like the salt but hate chlorine. So, for me, no rereading features at all.

Simple is best...

Seems you have a bit of a dilemma if you cannot obtain liquid chlorine.

I expect the shock product you have is cal-hypo. It won't affect your pH but it will raise calcium hardness (CH) and salt. Trichlor will raise CYA and reduce pH. Neither of these is an issue if you know what is going on in your water and you are happy to do a partial drain and refill every now and then to take the CH and CYA levels down, and add soda ash to bring pH up.

All that chlorine feeder is doing is using trichlor tabs. You can use a floater to do much the same thing. And of course your CYA and pH will rise.

Not sure what's going on with those flies. A pool with a salt water chlorine generator is putting chlorine in the water in much the same way as liquid chlorine or trichlor. If I was having my pool built again, I would have chosen a salt water system.

[Chaichara]

Many of the chlorine tablet feeders listed on the eBay link are readily available here in Thailand both in stores and online. Expect to pay about Baht 400 for the floating type and around Baht 3,000 for the in-line type.

[SantiSuk]

farang000999, on 11 Apr 2013 - 01:55, said:

Naam, on 10 Apr 2013 - 18:39, said:

farang000999, on 08 Apr 2013 - 21:20, said:

no reason at all to use those chlorine tabs, only liquid chlorine.

if you have a chlorinator the tablets are convenient. i use liquid chlorine too but i pump it.

The tablets raise the CYA level of your pool and the only way to lower it is to dump water out of the pool and add new water unless people have access to well water like yourself mentioned.

Rainy season keeps the CyA level flat or in decline for half the year, but you are right - my CyA hit 80+ 18 months after installation from a zero base during this dry season (chlorine Tricolor 90% powder). Not sure how having well water helps (there's no such thing as CyA minus in well water, is there?), except that the replacement water will be cheaper than town/village supply or tanker. 20% replacement water cost is not going to break the bank but if you don't have an easy exit for that quantity of water it can be a bit of a rigmarole ensuring you do not flood the garden!

[AllanB]

Ah, yes, I think I can recall a previous post where you said bleach is difficult to buy at a reasonable price.

Does the shock label say what the ingredients are?

Not a thing, just some rather obscure instructions, which is about right for them.

Am I right in assuming that shock normally PH neutral?

I am off to the UK in a month or so and will bring back an automatic chlorine feeder, http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=chlorine+feeder&_sacat=0&_from=R40 cheap to buy reliable, nice and simple.

I raised the point on another thread that I thought salt water chlorinators are really bad news, I know they are expensive to buy and was pretty sure that the salt water is abrasive too, this was confirmed when I looked at my mate's 2 year old fiberglass pool, which has no glaze at all left under the waterline and a white streak around the waterline. Contrast this to another friend's 8 year old fiberglass pool, which is immaculate and runs granular chlorine. The other problem is reliability, the sensor keeps getting contaminated and crates a low salt alarm and the whole caboodle has a life expectancy of 4 years. I don't know how long a $40 chlorine feeder lasts, but at least as long and one tenth the price and trouble.

Then I had a swim in the salt water pool and didn't like it at all, plus I had a lot of small flying insects around my face, which seem to like the salt but hate chlorine. So, for me, no rereading features at all.

Simple is best...

Seems you have a bit of a dilemma if you cannot obtain liquid chlorine.

I expect the shock product you have is cal-hypo. It won't affect your pH but it will raise calcium hardness (CH) and salt. Trichlor will raise CYA and reduce pH. Neither of these is an issue if you know what is going on in your water and you are happy to do a partial drain and refill every now and then to take the CH and CYA levels down, and add soda ash to bring pH up.

All that chlorine feeder is doing is using trichlor tabs. You can use a floater to do much the same thing. And of course your CYA and pH will rise.

Not sure what's going on with those flies. A pool with a salt water chlorine generator is putting chlorine in the water in much the same way as liquid chlorine or trichlor. If I was having my pool built again, I would have chosen a salt water system.

On the contrary, the constant use of shock put my PH through the roof, got it down now through PH-, my plan now is to use pucks through the in-line dispenser, as I don't like the floaty thing in my pool, plus the bleed rate of the dispenser is adjustable and occasional shock, which PH wise should cancel each other out.

What puzzles me is how this shock chlorine remains at high levels for well over a week now, this morning it is still over 2ppm after 8/9 days of adding nothing.

It is working too, my 5 micron filter was blocked this morning with lime green slime, a day after cleaning a ton of the stuff out. This year seems to be really bad, in terms of dirt ingress too, twice a week I am cleaning a fully loaded bag filter. I am surrounded by wasteland and they are building a lot of houses 3-400 metres away.

Re salt water systems...The salt is in the pool water, it is only (partially) converted when it passes through the generator. Some of these little flies like salt water on my body, no accounting for taste.

Edited May 21, 2013 by AllanB

[tollgate]

I've no idea what that chlorine "shock product" is. I have never come across a chlorine product that raises pH. Using a combination of pucks and this "shock product" should work and balance out your pH though, just need to test for pH regularly and also for CYA as this will rise quite quickly once you have that inline system.

...and damn those pesky flies.