Thai Muslims Protest French Headscarf Law

[cdnvic]

Actually francios, I'm a Buddhist (Zen, not Thai)

I have worries about extremists too, wether they be muslim, christian, jewish, etc. I jst think that a secular education in a state school is the most effective way of moderating the other influences on these kids. No matter what they are taught at home, they will still be soaking in lessons about "Libertie, Egalitie, Fraternitie" and the history of the republic.

I take this personally sometimes because believe it or not I have great respect for what France has done, not only in saying no to that bush-hussain personal feud in Iraq, but the work it quietly goes about doing in Africa (which has little oil so most ignore it), the carribian, and elsewhere. The EU's human rights laws are the result of French civil code, and to a small degree English common law, but certainly not Germany. France has always led the way when it came to human rights and personal liberties. Much of Canada's law regarding these things goes back to the days of French rule.

I just hope you aren't making things worse by making them feal threatend, rather than trying harder to show them what those three words (Libertie, Egalitie, Fraternitie), are all about. It begins by accepting them the way they are.

cv

[Pi Sua]

Bla bla bla.....!

Is the debate about the American helped to liberate France or about the headscarf ? The purpose is not to fight against each other but rather to try to find a solution. Please stop insult others because you do not agree with his opinion. Far to be a bigot leaving in a Buddhist country, with a Burmese Buddhist black wife, my sun is going to a Thai school in a pink uniform.

I request a new topic if you like to argue about whether it was the chicken who crosses the road or whether it the other side which came to the chicken, because whether it's true that America helped France, the same happened when France helped America to get rid of the British. We've got a lot in common except the last invasion in Iraq (another Topic).

But here, the point is the headscarf and I don't think the French want to go back like it was before 1905 when the Church was certainly the main power.

Whatever and I've already said that in my precedent posts, if we let things like that now, there will be no limit.

Mister cndvic, say to me if I think wrongly but following your perception, you'd allow now the girls coming with the headscarf and certainly tomorrow the girls coming in the complete Chador. The Jewish would wear their Ki-pa, the Christian their cross.

It would be the perfect world with the perfect love between people. Following this idea, the law against the headscarf at school would be useless. But seriously I don’t think it’s going to be like that.

And for sure in that way the right wingers would want to have their word, the Jesuits as well would be probably the first.

It would be a disaster. The first Muslim girl, the first Jewish, the first Jesuit or anyone from any other religion or any Ethny, taken apart just with words, could spread a big fire.

Look the way it’s going in Irish republic in the name of the Christianism which the motta is “you won’t kill anyone”. Now we are dealing with some who preach the holy war.

This headscarf is mainly a symbol of oppression and I do think it's the right way to fight it in our school. In the street, they do what they want and I also said that now even some Muslim girls have the guts to fight it. Recently, one was burnt and unfortunately she was not the first. How many of them should we tolerate they burn before taking action?

You should go and talk to them explaining you very reasons why you support the headscarf in the French school. Would you be back in one peace?

One more question Mr cndvic: have you ever talk with a Muslim girl in Paris' suburbs or any suburbs about the wearing of the headscarf? The brothers decide for them and zould you really want that they get the right to spread it in our school ? Do you know that mostly we are not allowed to talk to those girls?

That's good, as an infidel, it seems that you support the unbearable.

Where are you from, where do you live and where did you grow up ? I don't think we are living in the same planet!

Have you ever think, why we didn't have these kinds of troubles before Khomeini took the power in Iran? So Iran is not France but so far we get now the side effects. Don’t you think the issue is deeper than a simple piece of clothe on the head? Don’t you feel the religious and political extremism behind that ?

Do you remember when in Algeria, the FIS took the power sending men and women to vote? Once they won, the first thing they did was to forbid further elections.

Do you remember Salman Rushdie ? No right to talk about some verses of the Koran because a cotemporary said they were wrong verses. How an Ayatollah can decide if some of the Koran’s verses are wrong ??….and the Fidel follow because one as say that it was the way and this one is the same who re-imposed the wearing of the headscarf.

Of course, this French law will stop one liberty but this toward the goal to save fundamental liberties and to avoid the spread of violence and discrimination in our schools.

The most fundamental liberty it will preserve is that schools are place to learn and not a place to show out our believes. This let the kids out of the parents control in this matter. I think forbidding the headscarf at school will let to those girls the pleasure to test some of the real liberty and this will thwart the big brothers’ ideas.

I also said that we should stop the flourishment of Koranic schools, they are plenty in Islamic countries, it's their right to build as many as they like. But the way they are going toward is against the tolerance. And this is certainly another topic but a very sensitive one about Islam that is almost "forbidden" or at least dangerous.

So today France is at a crossroad. Take action or let it spread. I’ve made my choice and it’s likely the same as my government. I do not fight against a piece of clothe but against a religious concept and against some fundamentalists trying to make us feel guilty.

The most funny is that in every demonstration they chant what they have been ordered to chant and they dare chant about democracy and human rights. Have you noticed that the men let the Muslim women demonstrate ? Isn’t it surprising ? I don’t think they have the right to say anything about any other subject.

Isn’t it the pot calling the kettle black ?

[Pi Sua]

For the French readers,

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/040224/5/3nt3h.html

Al-Qaïda fustige la loi française sur l'interdiction du voile

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/040224/85/3ntbd.html

La France et le voile au coeur des diatribes d'Al Qaïda

[cdnvic]

Have you ever think, why we didn't have these kinds of troubles before Khomeini took the power in Iran? So Iran is not France but so far we get now the side effects. Don’t you think the issue is deeper than a simple piece of clothe on the head? Don’t you feel the religious and political extremism behind that ?

Do you remember when in Algeria, the FIS took the power sending men and women to vote? Once they won, the first thing they did was to forbid further elections.

Do you remember Salman Rushdie ? No right to talk about some verses of the Koran because a cotemporary said they were wrong verses. How an Ayatollah can decide if some of the Koran’s verses are wrong ??….and the Fidel follow because one as say that it was the way and this one is the same who re-imposed the wearing of the headscarf.

Interesting how alot of people use examples of oppression in third world dictatorships, theocracies and such to excuse restricting freedoms in democratic countries. France has a good track record in general on human rights and should set the bar a bit higher than being just like Iran, Tunisia, or wherever.

Once you start, where do you stop? Not allowing gay students to hold hands because they're "flaunting their homosexuality"? Telling people from certain buddhist sects to grow their hair back? Tell a polynesian to use makeup to cover his moka?

Yers there's been alot of upheaval in the islamic world these days, and just like back in the 50s with communisim, alot of people start to panic and make rash decisions that wind up making things alot worse than they really are. Many of these muslims are in the west to get away from all that crap and just want to practice their religion the way they see fit. There are many catholic, jewish, mennonite, etc, parents that keep just as close a lid on their children as in muslim families, yet nobody seems to worry about that. Why don't you talk to a catholic in Belfast who wants to marry a protostant? In some cases it may not be a problem, but in many it's huge, and occasionally deadly.

And if you think this all started with Kohmeni in 1979, you need to stop using CNN as a history book, it's been flaring up and down for over 1000yrs.

cv

[francois]

well, I don't want to go on arguing ....

I do agree with Bruno .. for most of what he said.

I just would like that everyone here consider these girls and women like oppressed ones.

mostly girls and teenagers ruled tightly by the family, and more often by the older brothers, it's a pity to say it this way, but this the way it goes in france.

those girls are victims of something they have no idea about ... and it's not about religion!

besides .. inAlgeria a lot of women are proud to be free from this scarf or any chador,

same in Tunisia and morroco, even during the killings in the 80's 90's ... they still did not wear it, knowing that they could be possibly in danger, anyone could shoot them down in the street, and this happened a few times ...

but, still, these women are strong enough to say no!

they just want to be respected as human beings with all the rights going with!

if they want to turn back to middle-age, up to them, but not in france!

france just want to keep the schools of the republic free from any religious influence!

this is what this law means!

why, a law? ... because "they" understand only the tough way!

francois

I won't write any more about this ...

it's done, soon applied and soon some problems ahead ... and sorry for you all mates,

but france will have to deal with those problems coming ... not any other country!

[Pi Sua]

Yers there's been alot of upheaval in the islamic world these days, and just like back in the 50s with communisim, alot of people start to panic and make rash decisions that wind up making things alot worse than they really are.

No panic for me ! Do you ? It's seem yes because it sounds like it torn you to know that the French are going to "oppress" those young girls.

Do you think we oppress them or we give them a chance to be free ?

Do actions make the thing worse? It may be in some case but some case when and where actions should had been taken to prevent but were not led to the great disasters.

The inaction is not the best way. You talk about communism (forbidden in US: democraty with communist party forbidden ) So communism; The 50's !!??? Sorry but I didn't know it has ended ! Is vietnam the 50's ? Is Tibet the 50's ? Is north Korea the 50's ? Is Cuba the 50's ? Is China and Hong Kong now the 50's ? You're somewhere right, it started 50 years ago but it isn't finish and how many dead untill now ?.

And if you think this all started with Kohmeni in 1979, you need to stop using CNN as a history book, it's been flaring up and down for over 1000yrs.

Thanks, I didn't know, I'll turn off my televison. But shouldn't you stop watching Fox news and get a better source of information ? Because Khomeiny was a reality show and his show is still going on...like the communism...

Interesting how alot of people use examples of oppression in third world dictatorships, theocracies and such to excuse restricting freedoms in democratic countries.

So, I think the examples I used are the truth and they must be taken with very high interest. How could we possibly ignore them? Easy to say "Oh yes but it's not like that everywhere". You might be right but for the moment, I don't have anything indicating me that way is such a good way that we should change that has been going for a hundred years in France.

You could make me revise my position if you gave me some good examples about how good it is happening in the countries ruled by the religion instead just criticize mine.

1905 was the start for France to become really a democraty. Oppening the freedom of concience and belief because it became no more controlled by the Church.

As I said, I think you are living far from this reality. I don't think you've grown up in the middle of this. I did and I know what I don't want. Easy to criticize as an "intellectual" but you don't have any valuable argument.

Almost all the French don't want any religion interfering in their children's education at school. No Christianism, no Islam, no Buddhism, nor the others.

Would you like us to cancelled the 1905's process !?

Do you understand ? This is not a new law because it as been like that since 1905. It's just to remind some people it's like that and they should not try to change our system.

Many of these muslims are in the west to get away from all that crap and just want to practice their religion the way they see fit.

What crap are you talking about? I'm not sure to understand ? That they want to get away from the fundamentalists ?

In that case, you are right but they are certainly not those ones who try to change the way it is in France. We have never forbid those girls to practise their religion but as it is for the Christian and the others, not in school.

France has a good track record in general on human rights and should set the bar a bit higher than being just like Iran, Tunisia, or wherever.

You think we are the same as Iran or Tunisia or wherever just because we remind with one law what already was !? Isn't it a small group trying to make here as it is in there !?

Once you start, where do you stop? Not allowing gay students to hold hands because they're "flaunting their homosexuality"? Telling people from certain buddhist sects to grow their hair back? Tell a polynesian to use makeup to cover his moka?

We are talking about religion in school not about sexual preferences or whatever. Following your ideas, no limits so why not to come naked, <deleted> in class to let anyone totally free, come with Gestapo uniform...or whatever..... We can then imagine anything. In one way like in the other way, fortunately and unfortunatly limits have to be set.

I understand you would really accept the girls in complete Chador in the French school. Would you accept them in yours ? Please, let me know what we have to accept to keep being the country of the human right. Accept everything ? Show the French the right way and the path to wisdom.

We have banned the Christianism from our school, the Christian never make such troubles arguing it was against God and now, no Christian are making any troubles even there are still a huge amount of Christian in France (Iwould say about 80 or 90% of the French people).

The troubles come from some people who want that Islam appear in our school. 10% of the French people are Muslim and the case concern just about few girls and maby no more than 4 or 5% of the French Muslim support them by demonstrating, guided by the fundamentalists.

If it was a tolerant religion not against the freedom of conscience, maybe some French would have think differently without feelling guilty that I mean, but still not about the principle because WE HAVE BANNED THE RELIGIONS FROM OUR SCHOOLS YEARS AGO.

Why don't you talk to a catholic in Belfast who wants to marry a protostant? In some cases it may not be a problem, but in many it's huge, and occasionally deadly.

Didn't I take an example about how it was going on in Irish Republic in the name of God? A good example of what we don't want in France.

Al Quaida has (yesterday, not 100 years ago) just condamned Mohammed Sayed Tantaoui, Al-Azhar's grand cheikh of the Islamic University of Egypt because he just said that the French were right in doing this because it is our culture.

Who's right ? Osama or the Grand Cheik ? I'm in the Grand Cheik's side and you ?

I don't want to argue about that any more unless you've got better arguments than the ones you've used untill now. Just demonstrate that 1905 was a mistake and convince me that re-incorporating the religion in our educational sytem is the best and then I'll probably reconsider my position.

And as the same as François said, it's done (for me has just been re-enforced) and we'll get the results.

We would have get the same without this "reminding law" and very probably more problems. I don't believe in the perfect world.

[francois]

Al Quaida has (yesterday, not 100 years ago) just condamned Mohammed Sayed Tantaoui, Al-Azhar's grand cheikh of the Islamic University of Egypt because he just said that the French were right in doing this because it is our culture.

Who's right ? Osama or the Grand Cheik ? I'm in the Grand Cheik's side and you ?

yop Grand Cheik for sure

I did not know this ...

and it confirms to me that "moderate muslims" would accept this as normal regarding of the french culture and more than this, the respect of the hosting country!

like we all do here!

francois

[Pi Sua]

Sorry for the non French readers

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/040224/5/3nt3h.html

Al-Qaïda fustige la loi française sur l'interdiction du voile

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".............Le grand cheikh de l'université islamique égyptienne d'Al-Azhar, Mohammed Sayed Tantaoui, est aussi mis en cause, le locuteur d'Al-Qaïda qualifiant sa position de "scandaleuse". Cheikh Tantaoui avait jugé que la France était fondée à voter une loi exigeant des femmes musulmanes qu'elles se plient aux coutumes locales............"

..........................