JemJem Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 To catmac : I think my post (and also cdnvic's post) is quite clear...I just don't see any harm done by girls wearing a scarf as long as they are not pressured into doing that and as long as they don't try to impose any stuff on others. Let Student A wear a scarf at school...Let student B wear a cross at school....let student C come to school in a microskirt....I don't mind any of those. I, as a humanist and anti-right winger, am all the way against an Islamist state just like I was against the South African and Nazi regimes of the past. Islam (and other religions) should stay at the individual level and must not have any place in the larger context (ie. politics) . I was speaking out against some people here who were using the scarf issue to vent their hatred towards a certain group of people in general. I hope it is clear now. Regards, Jem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 To put it in simple terms subjectively.....I don't see a problem as long as the wearer of the headscarf is not pressured in any way by the father, mother, brother, etc. And, as long as the rights of others are not affected by the people wearing the scarf, I don't see a threat, especially not in a European country (come on some of you guys, do you really think France is in danger of being an Islamist state ?!). it does look like you don't know the problem in france! sometime ago, they(muslim boys) raped and BURNED a girl who's only fault was not to wear this scarf ... a whore!, so, let's make a round with that bitch ... this is the way muslim boys think in france, they believe that even their parents are not "good muslims" ... there come in what they call " muslim brothers" ... a movement born in Egypt and not allowed by the government! they, "the muslim brothers" teach to all these teenagers, some belief that have nothing to do with religion ... they hate israel, united-states, and any country that go in the same way of thinking ... non-muslim are infidel ... including christian, when you read the coran, it's written that : our bother christians .... some changes since in my humble opinion, a religion is made of and for love and compassion ... and it seems to me that what we see from muslims, is right the opposite! hate and intolerance and it's completly unfair, because a majority of them are out of this violent curse ... but I can't help thinking that what kind of people can rejoice when they saw the towers falling in NY, they just thought we attacked america! ... any thought about all the innocent people who died because of their religious belief? sure not! so, to avoid any kind of discrimination, france decided to get rid of all these scarf kipa cross, etc ... and some muslims are angry, just because they know they won't be able to go against the law, and it's good thing! I do think that it's done to try to stop the integrism movement in france, and I won't be surprised that "moderate muslim" agree with this ... only fondamentalist and extremist are demonstrating, in france like anywhere else! one more thing ... anyone had ever been in morroco or Algeria? could be interesting to know if there, women wear that scarf or not? ... we have to keep in mind that it's a man stuff ... they have to marry a "virgin" ... but they come to Thailand in large numbers to act like good muslims and as it has been said, they protest fot their rights, but they would the first to forbid anything that don't belong their religion ... sad to be obliged to edict a law to prevent damage to a society francois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 I, as a humanist and anti-right winger, am all the way against an Islamist state just like I was against the South African and Nazi regimes of the past. Islam (and other religions) should stay at the individual level and must not have any place in the larger context (ie. politics) . yop, and here is the point! some muslim think about an Arab Nation, muslim of course ... and this arab nation is not made of countries, it's made of muslims people ... the Arab Nation is the entire muslim world ... large that's what the french people can't accept! they don't want any religion to interfer in the republic's life, for what ever the reason is. we can agree or not .. the fact is that we have to be careful about those fondamentalists. they are in every town, and they spread a wrong way to think! these are facts, at least in france! francois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nam Kao Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Nostradamus predicts France will be nuked by an Islamic state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 Back home we got a couple of muslim immigrants, all of them people who fled their home countries because of political and perhaps religious surpression. Many of them live there in 2nd or 3rd generation. The children don't speak their original language anymore, but you take one of their daughters who fall in love (I do mean the real romantic thing) with a local guy and the whole family is out to protect the girl who than is forced to wear the headgear, never allowed to see her boyfriend anymore, not even in hospital where he is recuperating. More often than not the girl is next door to get a few stitches from wounds inflicted by family members. To avoid this I appreciate any law that will request immigrants to adjust to become locals. In other words, if you want to wear your headgear, you are welcome as a visitor but than go back home. If you want to really become one of us, do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I just love watching guys screech like little girls over something so petty as a headscarf, or a turban, or a cross (notice few have railed against those ). If you are more worried about someone wearing a cloth on your head than you are about the government telling you what you can or cannot wear, then; - Don't whine about bar closing times. - Don't bitch about visa restrictions. If you are willing to let the government decide what people should wear, then bend over because if let them step on such a small freedom as that then they'll have more coming for you. It's just a pity most of you have led privilaged lives. You must not understand what real oppression is. I also start to wonder if the 100,000 of my countrymen and millions of others from around the globe who are buried in France, or died bringing freedom to France were just wasting their time. cv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 cdnvic, there should be no bitching about bar closing times or visa-restrictions. Thailand can implement whatever laws they feel necessary regardless what others think about. Personally, I think the closing rules are ridiculous and counterproductive, but than? Visa rules to enter Thailand are by far more relaxed then rules of most countries for Thai people to enter. The majority of visitors to Thailand just hop into an airplane and are granted to stay for 30 days. Vice versa? No way. They need a visa, and ever so often such is denied by the embssies in Bangkok, fee paid or not. The head scarf rule, I agree to that, is a petty matter. France decided they don't want it (in schools paid by French tax payers) so why do the people make such a big issue? Either don't wear the headgear or don't go there. France got freedom and demogracy. So let it be used in the best interest of the people of France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 cdnvic, there should be no bitching about bar closing times or visa-restrictions. Thailand can implement whatever laws they feel necessary regardless what others think about. Personally, I think the closing rules are ridiculous and counterproductive, but than? Visa rules to enter Thailand are by far more relaxed then rules of most countries for Thai people to enter. The majority of visitors to Thailand just hop into an airplane and are granted to stay for 30 days. Vice versa? No way. They need a visa, and ever so often such is denied by the embssies in Bangkok, fee paid or not. The head scarf rule, I agree to that, is a petty matter. France decided they don't want it (in schools paid by French tax payers) so why do the people make such a big issue? Either don't wear the headgear or don't go there. France got freedom and demogracy. So let it be used in the best interest of the people of France. Well said dear Axel...well said. The real choice is theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeepz Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Hmm, not to be commented on since France is a country that is 1. democratic and 2. free? Wish you'd extend that same courtesy to the USA. Jeepz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrvietnam2001 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 The French should give Bastiat a read. Maybe refresh the memory a bit would be a good thing. Mr Vietnam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkstoney Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 When Vlad Tepes of Romania asked his very young son what he thought about the refusal of the sultan's ambassadors to remove their turbans while in his presence, because it was their tradition, he replied: "Since they don't ever want to take them off, let's nail them on." So they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 The French should give Bastiat a read. Maybe refresh the memory a bit would be a good thing.Mr Vietnam Mr Vietnam, I'm not sure I understand your post. Please could you clarify ? thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrvietnam2001 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 The French should give Bastiat a read. Maybe refresh the memory a bit would be a good thing.Mr Vietnam Mr Vietnam, I'm not sure I understand your post. Please could you clarify ? thanks. Do you know who Bastiat is? Mr Vietnam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 The French should give Bastiat a read. Maybe refresh the memory a bit would be a good thing.Mr Vietnam Mr Vietnam, I'm not sure I understand your post. Please could you clarify ? thanks. Do you know who Bastiat is? Mr Vietnam Claude Frédéric Bastiat ? a French economist (born in 1801, died in 1850) ? The guy who said that free market is a source of "economic harmony" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Hmm, not to be commented on since France is a country that is 1. democratic and 2. free? Wish you'd extend that same courtesy to the USA. Jeepz Absolutely Jeepz. the USA is democratic and free (perhaps I should have used the word independent?) Although I have read in here a few times that USA is a Republic and not a democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NedKelly Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Isn't religion wonderful. Coupla thousand years ago some fools made up some rules and decided that this was what everyone should believe. Ever since there has been turmoil. This is not to argue that there was not chaos before hand. But surely religion has notr saved the human race ever since. In fact it has destroyed so many people it's not funny. If ever there was a 'sign' of the evil itself, it has to be human spritual belief and the will to exert it over others or to use it for political gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Isn't religion wonderful. Coupla thousand years ago some fools made up some rules and decided that this was what everyone should believe. Ever since there has been turmoil. This is not to argue that there was not chaos before hand. But surely religion has notr saved the human race ever since. In fact it has destroyed so many people it's not funny. If ever there was a 'sign' of the evil itself, it has to be human spritual belief and the will to exert it over others or to use it for political gain. Chairman Mao Tse Tung said that religion was the opiate of the masses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Chairman Mao Tse Tung said that religion was the opiate of the masses but without the ecstasy induced by opium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuky Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Chairman Mao Tse Tung said that religion was the opiate of the masses Did he mention anything about his wife Doc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 My last post was a bit harsh at the end and I'd just like to apologise for suggesting the liberation of France was a waste of time. That was a stupid thing to say and I'm sorry. cv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 If you are willing to let the government decide what people should wear, then bend over because if let them step on such a small freedom as that then they'll have more coming for you. it's absolutly not the point ... french had to make a law to make those fondamentalists understand one for good, that the law belong to the republic and to the french people and not to any religious movement, and surely not from kids ruled by parents whose tendency is to stay as close to their once way of life, those people don't want to acclimate themselves to the french style of life, and so they try to impose their way to be, and this is the last thing that the french republic can tolerate. don't get me wrong, I am not on this side to say, make laws! we should have been able to deal with this with some other ways ... but, it's far beyond religion, it is a political thing, or a bad-mix of both ... parents, brothers push all those girls to wear this scarf if they don't want to be considered like a bitch, and those girls wear itbecause they are obliged, and then they would telll you, it's because of my religion ... (#####) because of surrounding pressure! the big word is, I entered in religion, so I wear this muslim scarf! so, the boys say same ... they enter in religion! this means for me, they had been so much "brain-washed", that they do believe that now they are good muslim! some in the 90's were just like this, manipulated by a group of "muslim brothers", and they put some bombs around in france, killing people and injured a lot, they caught them all, and the last one died on the street ... but they will enter the paradise as martyr ... francois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrvietnam2001 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 The French should give Bastiat a read. Maybe refresh the memory a bit would be a good thing.Mr Vietnam Mr Vietnam, I'm not sure I understand your post. Please could you clarify ? thanks. Do you know who Bastiat is? Mr Vietnam Claude Frédéric Bastiat ? a French economist (born in 1801, died in 1850) ? The guy who said that free market is a source of "economic harmony" ? It was a question. If you don't/can't answer that's fine. I didn't expect to discover anything out of the ordinary here. Mr Vietnam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrvietnam2001 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Hmm, not to be commented on since France is a country that is 1. democratic and 2. free? Wish you'd extend that same courtesy to the USA. Jeepz Absolutely Jeepz. the USA is democratic and free (perhaps I should have used the word independent?) Although I have read in here a few times that USA is a Republic and not a democracy. Axel, 90% of Americans couldn't tell you the difference, when it changed, so don't let them kid you. People here have become just as ignorant as people there. The biggest difference is the French at least took a few asss kickings before they finally and totally succumbed to their ignorance and socialism. Mr Vietnam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valentinoxxx Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 I think the bigotry comment was aimed at those who try to equate the wearing of a headscarf to something that is evil. The 'evil' Taliban, Muslims killing Muslims in Morocco, Muslims wanting to take over the world..... and then Hitler! What a load of s**t! Evil Taliban? The alternative? The Northern Alliance? Do a little research. Opium production dropped from 2000 tonnes annually to 85 tonnes under the Taliban. You've would not heard that fact trumpeted from certain quarters. What are the production figures now? I would venture nearer 3000 tonnes. We seem quite happy to expect our values to be assimilated in others countries. Regime change/Democracy in Afghanistan, Iraq.. For whose benefit? The Taliban were a solution(not perfect) in a country ruled by warlords. Outside Kabul, do you think the people are better off now. Iraq, again we impose our will under the guise of freeing the world of WMD and after this was exposed as nonsense," to free the people of Iraq". Oh yeah? Let's spend $100, 000, 000, 000 on freeing the people of Iraq. Do you think people are happier in Iraq or just different people that are happier? Let us look at the British in Spain... How many of them can even speak Spanish? How well do they assimilate? Try going to France and doing the same thing. They will just ignore you. This is the same old nonsense being dredged up again. Attack anyone who looks different or who has different beliefs than you. Then we hear the old 11/9 nonsense being dragged up again. That didn't happen because Muslims wanted to take over the world. This was in response to American foreign policies. I shall list some for you; The constant vetoing of UN Security Resolutions against Israel by the USA, Supplying an amount equal to 50% of Israeli GDP in aid. What sort of aid would this be? The US would then appear to be at least colluding in the oppression of the Palestinians and the occupation of their lands. The constant flying of 'sorties'(bombings) over Iraq for the 12 years AFTER the first Gulf invasion. These seem aimed at softening up Iraq for a final invasion. The Iraqis didn't have a single 'plane with which to retaliate. The continual veto of UN Security Council Resolutions to lift the sanctions against Iraq. At least one million children died because of the sanctions according to UK government figures. The USA military bases on Saudi soil. The only reason that some were so shocked about 11/9 is that for once someone brought the fight to them. Normally they hear about 'collateral damage' and don't give it a second thought. ######, it was only in Sudan. Hey we'll bomb a paint factory and call it it a chemical factory. Oops! Killed a few people. Oh, it was a paint factory. Hey, let carpet bomb Laos. Drop Agent Orange on Vietnam, Use the 'Mother of all bombs' on Iraq. Cluster bombs with depleted Uranium. Why not? As long as it's nowhere near us. All this stupidity I hear about Muslims wanting to take over the world. This is just propaganda to keep people in a state of fear. So yes, there is stupidity, ignorance and bigotry being shown on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Chairman Mao Tse Tung said that religion was the opiate of the masses Did he mention anything about his wife Doc? <_< Not a word...but I understand that he had a lot of youngies on the side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinN Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Seems like someone should get his liberal head out of his liberal ass and quit throwing the "B" word[bigot] around and look what is happening instead of just crying "BIGOT" and not thinking of what all the suicide bombs are doing to a lot of school children,,Who else,pray tell, would bomb schools and kill school children in the name of religious freedom.What was it? 21 schools in the south of Thailand??This guy is just to stupid to even engage in conversation,should have wiped out his whole post as will pobly happen to this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 My last post was a bit harsh at the end and I'd just like to apologise for suggesting the liberation of France was a waste of time. That was a stupid thing to say and I'm sorry.cv Don't worry for that. Those of your countrymen who are buried in France didn't waste their time : Thanks to them, the grass is greener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I didn't expect to discover anything out of the ordinary here.Mr Vietnam Your condescension is out of the ordinary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Don't worry for that. Those of your countrymen who are buried in France didn't waste their time : Thanks to them, the grass is greener. Thanks to them (and the Aussies, Americans, Brits, Kiwis, etc), you're Free. Too bad you take it for granted. I invite you to go to Vimy, Dieppe, Calais, Bolonge sur mer, Arras, or Juno Beach and repeat to the locals what you just typed in your last post. See if you get out in one piece. Has anyone given any thought of what happens if the parents of these girls decide to pull them out of state schools where, as much as it gets panicky peoples' panties in a twist, they wear their headscarves AND get a secular education. Almost every post in support of the headscarf ban has repeated the mantra that these people have to learn to be more like everybody else. Well that won't happen in an islamic private school run by Saudis. Let them wear the scarf and allow them to learn how to be more french, rather than push them away so they retreat further into their own culture for protection. cv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 All this stupidity I hear about Muslims wanting to take over the world. This is just propaganda to keep people in a state of fear.So yes, there is stupidity, ignorance and bigotry being shown on this thread. I can agree with a lot of what you said ... but, one question, have you a lot of muslim friends or relatives or may be are you muslim yourself? could you say ? just because, I have some friends, who are muslim. they know that a portion of fondamentalist would like to turn the entire world under the law of "Allah" ... they said so to me because they heard it! any comment? you see, in fact for a minority of muslim people this scarf is a part of a holy war ... jiiad! "they" consider that they have to be recognized as muslim and purer than any other one. it sounds a bit similar when they talk about israel, they just say, "jews consider themselves as the elected people" "the holy choice of God" ... and then begin almost always the same kind of talking ... slave of US, or US slave of israel ... F### jews etc ... they say they are arrogant, insolent, not polite, just because they consider themselves as ... etc ... I really don't like to talk about this but I heard it so often ... always saying that they should shut up .. so they did, but thinking the same! I even heard once ... that americans had chosen the easiest beaches in normandie ... some lies like this come straight out of some "muslims brothers" ... this is the way they "educate" kids in the suburb of many town in france! this is a fact! it's not stupidity nor ignorance! facts and only facts! now, tell me about bigotry ... you see, reality in a country might not apply anywhere else, but in france, we have a real problem with those fondamentalists, it's a sad reality, but it's one present! and it's getting worse, that's why, may be, that the french gvernment decided to put up a halt signal. again, I'm not for this kind of reaction, but have to recognize that it might be efficient. not the best way, but it could be a sign (a little too strong), to those who profess radical islam to stay quiet .. it could lead to a violent period too Let them wear the scarf and allow them to learn how to be more french, rather than push them away so they retreat further into their own culture for protection. if this could have been done nicely, sure would have been better, but there the point was, do we allow muslim people to impose some of their things or not ... considering the environment, and the actual tendency to radical muslims ... france decide to say, stop! were they right or not? to my humble opinion, no, but they surely have considered more things than me. things are far to be simple, even for a french francois just an add-on ... I'm not stupid, not an ignorant (I know my country pretty well), and far from bigotry! just scale your words sometime, you might hurt some sensibilities ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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