george Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Thai Muslims protest French headscarf law BANGKOK: - Some 60 Thai Muslims including veiled women demonstrated outside the French embassy Friday over the government's decision to ban Islamic headscarves. Witnesses said the protesters, including up to 20 women wearing the traditional veil, chanted slogans and waved banners printed in English, Thai and the Yawi dialect spoken in Thailand's Muslim-majority south. The banners read "Down with France", "Dare you Challenge God" and "Chirac - chief violator of human rights", referring to French president Jacques Chirac. Many of the demonstrators came to the embassy from Friday prayers at a nearby mosque in the Thai capital. They submitted a letter protesting the new law to embassy officials before dispersing peacefully after about an hour. In the letter, they accused the French government of contravening basic human rights, ignoring the principles of Islam, and introducing a measure which would result in Muslim girls dropping out of schools. They also called on Muslims to unite to fight for their rights, warning that other European nations were likely to implement similar laws. The majority of Thailand's 62 million people are Buddhist, but five percent of the population is Muslim, mostly living in the five southern provinces bordering Malaysia. Opponents of the ban, which has also triggered demonstrations in Indonesia and Malaysia, argue that wearing a headscarf is a religious obligation and not merely a cultural expression. The issue has become the focus of heated arguments over how best to integrate France's Muslim minority, with "secularists" fearful that the Islamic garb is an outward sign of a refusal to assimilate fully into French society. Chirac said Wednesday he would support a recommendation from an advisory committee to introduce the legislation in the interest of protecting France's secular principles and reducing religious divisions. --AFP 2004-02-14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 are they talking about the towelheads that get away without wearing a helmet on a motorbike or just the women that wear the veils? i took one off a guy a few years ago with a water gun during songkran, they are alittle sensitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirusman Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 The sooner we do the same in the Uk the better ..............when in Rome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 The French are noted for their concerns about what other people think about anything at all ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NedKelly Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 I thought Toxin was stopping people protesting on Thai soil about issues inother countries. Sihks in Australia won a court case about going to the local RSL club wearing their head bits. RSL clubs have rules about wearing hats and so on when inside.......theyare a bit old fashioned but there is not much difference between a hat and a turban.......its basically a head covering. In our culture it is considered rude to cover your head when inside places like churches and clubs so why should a sihk be able to wear his turban when everyone else has to take off his or her hat ? A world gone mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 It is very difficult to make a clear rule on this issue, which is in the courts in neighboring Germany as well. Especially, to do it retroactively, means to ban, what was tolerated till now. My grandmother used to say: Who's bread I eat, who's song I sing. If somebody decides to migrate to another country he or she is expected to assimilate and accept the rules, traditions, history of such country. It worked largely in the USA as well as in Australia to name two migration targets. From history-lessons I recall that migrants arriving in the States often had first to change their name if it was not pronouncable in English. The language skills followed, latest in the next generation as well as 'melting' with other 'local' people. Something I would expect from migrants who want to assimilate. Freedom of religion is one thing but it should not bother or impede the freedom of others. To take off your hat (anybody still wearing one?) is a sign of respect. Christians could as well be offended by somebody not taking off the head gear or openly showing off religious signs against Christians. (No I am not Christian) A visitor to one's country might follow the tradition from back home. The issue, however, is on residents and French (naturalized) citizens who want to attend to government sponsored schools to learn about indegineous values. Perhaps, Thailand does it better? We have at least 3 distinct ethnic or religious groups who live together as Thais, or do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felt 35 Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 If somebody decides to migrate to another country he or she is expected to assimilate and accept the rules, traditions, history of such country. Well that is the way is should be. In some European countries people with a different religion can use their scarf or whatever it should be on head even in the army, schools, etc, and they also get special food treatment. Compare to the above will I say most of the foreigners I know in Thailand assimilate the rules in their host country much better than what I see the contrary part do in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Mist Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 The muslims seem to think they have some god given right to do and behave exactly as they did in their previous domiciles. The reason they left is largely forgotten but is because of problems caused by the the volatile nature of these peoples demenour and is a product of their religion. Furk the towel heads if they dont like what is happening get a job as a driver in a suicide truck. In Oz we are supposed to kow tow to these pricks in the name of cultural sensitivity and equality, but it's a one way street so up their doongas I wont do it they can get ferked. Keep sending the pricks to any where but here they dont fit in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markt Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 A 15 year old muslim girl in the UK is taking her school to court because the school have had the audasity to make her wear the school uniform, and not allow her to wear traditional muslim clobber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francois Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 A 15 year old muslim girl in the UK is taking her school to court because the school have had the audasity to make her wear the school uniform, and not allow her to wear traditional muslim clobber. The sooner we do the same in the Uk the better ..............when in Rome it's not esay to say that this contreversy is on for not that long as most of people think .. this scarf is out since khomeiny had been sheltered in france in 79 ... a mistake, french people paid dearly later on ... at the same time, some radical fondamentalist muslim began to spread all over, re-reading the Coran, giving an other way to interprate it ... we have seen some results of this Muslim world splitting in kinda different worlds ... some are just as any other christian or else, and some are mixing politics and religion. in france we had a revolution and we had a complete separation of government and churches ... what do you think that this new law is made for? in the french world it's made to stop the increase of radicalism in the muslim religion, as we already see in the suburb of most of the big towns. we often see written on the walls " women or bitch", meaning wearing the scarf or behaving like an other french girl, which means for these muslims "bitch". in france, schools are public and in public-schools no one has to show off any racial or religious sign, it's in the law, it's like this, do french people have to accept all what people coming to live in have to request in the name of religion or else? sorry, I do not think so! you decided to come, adapt yourself! isn't it like this here? I know, it might look a bit rough, but I think that french don't want to be under any other law that the republic's one, surely not a muslim one ... and that's what's all about! believe me .. I'm french francois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Sihks in Australia won a court case about going to the local RSL club wearing their head bits. RSL clubs have rules about wearing hats and so on when inside.......theyare a bit old fashioned but there is not much difference between a hat and a turban.......its basically a head covering. In our culture it is considered rude to cover your head when inside places like churches and clubs so why should a sihk be able to wear his turban when everyone else has to take off his or her hat ? A world gone mad. We had a controversy a few years back when several sikhs were refused entry into a RCL (Royal Canadian Legion) club on rememberance day for refusing to remove their turbans, even though one of them had been awarded a Victoria Cross in WW2. A reporter from a Vancouver newspaper went in about a week later and identified over a dozen hairpieces being worn by veterans inside. Both the hairpiece and turban are head coverings. One is a religious symbol. One is pure vanity. If someone wearing a cloth on his head makes you so upset, you really need to grow a thicker skin. Does it not make more sense to be thankful that people from different cultures can sit peacfully in the same room like this guy wanted to do when around the world people of different cultures or religions kill each other on sight? That legion branch refused to change its policy and the RCL took away its charter. Just as well, because the men they refused entry to fought as bravely as any of the men in hairpieces for supposedly 'freedom'. cv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 If you visit my country, you are welcome to wear whatever you want. Looks interesting, if somebody comes with feathers on the head, a turban or a whole tiger head. Display your national wardrobe. The issue, however, is different if you want to acquire my nationality. In this case I would expect you to adjust, speak the language, understand the culture, the religion, where applicable. In other words, once you have the national passport and citizenship behave like a national of your newly acquired country. Keep your dream of the past as what it is, a dream. Btw, yes, I live in Thailand and no I do not adjust, at least not completely. But then, I did not and probably will not apply for citizenship and my visa reads Non-immigrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinrada Posted February 14, 2004 Share Posted February 14, 2004 Last summer I went down the local pub wearing a sarong and flipflops that I had picked earlier on hols in M.B.K. Got a lot of funny looks but what thev heck if David Beckam can get away with it then why not...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kringle Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Not long ago there was this muslim woman that went to court so she could wear her "MASK" to get her drivers license because she said it was her religion. She LOST!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markt Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 We await the result of her appeal. Personally i think she has none! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Last summer I went down the local pub wearing a sarong and flipflops that I had picked earlier on hols in M.B.K.Got a lot of funny looks but what thev heck if David Beckam can get away with it then why not...... That'd frighten the locals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi Sua Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 A 15 year old muslim girl in the UK is taking her school to court because the school have had the audasity to make her wear the school uniform, and not allow her to wear traditional muslim clobber. The sooner we do the same in the Uk the better ..............when in Romeit's not esay to say that this contreversy is on for not that long as most of people think ..this scarf is out since khomeiny had been sheltered in france in 79 ... a mistake, french people paid dearly later on ... at the same time, some radical fondamentalist muslim began to spread all over, re-reading the Coran, giving an other way to interprate it ... we have seen some results of this Muslim world splitting in kinda different worlds ... some are just as any other christian or else, and some are mixing politics and religion. in france we had a revolution and we had a complete separation of government and churches ... what do you think that this new law is made for? in the french world it's made to stop the increase of radicalism in the muslim religion, as we already see in the suburb of most of the big towns. we often see written on the walls " women or bitch", meaning wearing the scarf or behaving like an other french girl, which means for these muslims "bitch". in france, schools are public and in public-schools no one has to show off any racial or religious sign, it's in the law, it's like this, do french people have to accept all what people coming to live in have to request in the name of religion or else? sorry, I do not think so! you decided to come, adapt yourself! isn't it like this here? I know, it might look a bit rough, but I think that french don't want to be under any other law that the republic's one, surely not a muslim one ... and that's what's all about! believe me .. I'm french francois You're right François. I usually think that laws are too numerous but I do think this one is necessary to remind that we are not living in an Islamic state and the women are socially equal to the men. The French people should quickly organise counter demonstrations through the all country if we want to keep what our ancestors fought for ! As you understand, I'm French and from Paris' suburbs, grew up amongst those who consider the French girls as bitches. Your sayings are right and let me say that they often call our girls "whore". I wonder (in fact not really) if those people would tolerate a Christian carrying even a small cross in a school in any Muslim country, a Jewish wearing his Ki-pa, a Buddhist planting his temple..... !? In Islamic countries do foreigners have the right to demonstrate especially for religious purpose different from Islam !? They would be killed or crucified! A long time ago this scarf was just a light scarf, could even be transparent, after some time it couldn't be transparent....and then.... the Taliban! Never forget! Never forget that all the human being who's not a Muslim is an infidel. So first why do they send their children in school populated with infidel and try to impose their rites in our society !? Is it the start of trying to convert everybody !? Is it to show that they are pure and not the others ? In the south of Thailand they burn schools ! I wonder why Thaksin authorised this demonstration as he already got big problems with the Muslim separatists. When I was young, my parent wanted me to learn about the Catholic rites, so young I refused and they never forced me. It's not the case for those young girls who have no choice of wearing the scarf or being insulted, rejected.....there is an association in France called "Ni putes ni soumises" (Not whore, not submissive) and those girls (many are Muslim) are very courageous because they fight hard against this kind of exclusion. The scarf is the first sign of submission. The French shouldn't even allow the flourishment of Koranic schools toward the goal to avoid those young girls this submission that they think it’s for they own good. For me, Sikhs wearing turban is a bit different problem because as far as I know, it's not a discriminatory sign and there are not pushed by any hidden political or fanatic motivations. I'm personally not totally against but for sure it is a religious sign and it remains a problem with the secularism in our educational system. I have no problem with Islam but I don’t like discriminatory signs and especially people who are trying to impose their own practice in our system. In 1988 I stayed few weeks in Kashmir and saw terrible religious Muslim Shiite practices but they were their practices and I had nothing to say or even trying to change anything but once again I wouldn’t like to see those happenings in France. Today the scarf in school, so what for tomorrow ? Islamic France? Better to prevent NOW ! Last thing, our French Girls are not bitches because they don't wear a scarf or because they wear short skirts. Their most precious virtue is covered. Instead of a world full of scarfed women, I would dream of a world populated with naked women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catmac Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 We should all be thankful to the French government for having the guts to stand up against the Islamic extremists. They want only one thing....the subjugation of the entire world to their medieval beliefs! Just look at any part of the world suffering from Islamic extremist brutality. In Saudi Arabia, Algeria and Morocco they murder fellow muslims; in Israel they murder jews; in Russia they murder christians; in Kashmir they murder hindus; in Thailand they murder buddhists; in Iraq and Afghanistan they murder muslims and christians alike! The wearing of the viel is just the first step in forcing their beliefs on the rest of the world. I'm always amazed thet so many liberals who were so prominent in championing women's rights, are today so misguided in taking up the Islamic cause. Do we really want to live in a Taliban-ruled society? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemJem Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 Well...this issue is an interesting one and worth a nice, intellectual discussion but unfortunately just like some other topics, we see brainless right-wingers and bigots jumping in and expressing their bigotry, instead of a well-put argument. The matter is a complex one, with various aspects to be considered (religious, philosophical, political, sociological, even international relations). To put it in simple terms subjectively.....I don't see a problem as long as the wearer of the headscarf is not pressured in any way by the father, mother, brother, etc. And, as long as the rights of others are not affected by the people wearing the scarf, I don't see a threat, especially not in a European country (come on some of you guys, do you really think France is in danger of being an Islamist state ?!). I myself don't have any problem with a girl wearing a headscarf, even at school (provided what I wrote above are the case). I would PREFER girls not to wear a headscarf but then again I would also PREFER 60-year old women not to go topless at beaches and certainly PREFER not to see guys with arms, etc filled with disgusting right-wing/nationalist tattoos. Regards, Jem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meemiathai Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 My religion requires me to carry explosives around my body at all times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meemiathai Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 I myself don't have any problem with a girl wearing a headscarf I DO!!! Can't imagine the harm done to me if the beautiful ladies walking around in BKK all wear a "face mask"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 My religion requires me to carry explosives around my body at all times! does your religion require you to detonate them in a heavily populated area, preferably with lots kids around ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meemiathai Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 Well, yes. If GOD tells me to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 France has banned all religious symbols from school (headscarves, crosses, kippas, explosives, nail clippers, flip-flops, etc...). And it's just the first step. Next time we'll ban religions themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pi Sua Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 I myself don't have any problem with a girl wearing a headscarf I DO!!! Can't imagine the harm done to me if the beautiful ladies walking around in BKK all wear a "face mask"! That's incredible the easy way to classified the people "brainless right-wingers". We can't give any argument without being called racist, xenophobe, bigot... I don't have any problem if the girl wearing a headscarf does it's by pure conviction but I don't think it's like that. Since they are young, they are underminded because they are women. One thing, when you are talking about the "brainless right-wingers and bigots jumping in and expressing their bigotry, instead of a well-put argument", so what is your well put argument ? This one :"The matter is a complex one, with various aspects to be considered (religious, philosophical, political, sociological, even international relations)." Bla bla...you sound like a politician but do not give any solutions! We all know that it is a complex matter, thanks for your comment but I think we have to take position and not sleeping on just "that is a complex matter" and let the problem growing because a problem there is. If we let the communitarism growing in school, then the Church will ask it's due and will want to join with the government so back to 1905. I'm French and I don't want that. No religion at school, not any one. Iran wasn't it a better place to go before Komeiny install an Islamic regime? Do you think the people now would do it again if they had the possibility to change it ? Then you say "I don't see a problem as long as the wearer of the headscarf is not pressured in any way by the father, mother, brother" Isn't it a piece of obscurantism ? I would answer that is the main problem and it is often the brother who pressure them. Do you really know any of those Muslim Girls who are not under pressure? If they are some, they are really few. The usual answer they would give is "I'm not pressured, it's my religion"...but did they have the choice to adopt a different religion ? It somewhere remind me Mao and his "red book"..... My question is why the headscarf for the women and not for the men ? Don't you think that if the French government allows the wearing of the headscarf today, woudn't it be the complete "Chador" tomorrow ? Where and when to put the limit ? Don't you see who and what is behind the scene ? I've got a lot of friend who are muslim but unfortunately, most of them have the same talks. I think Islam has its place in Europe but it do have to evoluate on some points. There are always been Muslims in France so have you ever heard of such problems before ? This is very recent and it belongs to the bigots, the real ones. And I promese I don't have any far right tatoos and do not have problem with the 60 year old grannies going topless even I don't find it beautiful (some still are well preserved) but no one force us to look. Isn't it the way to the social order, no old granny going topless, no spot on faces admitted to go topless, not the fat ones....then a headscarf to go swimming....but do they have the right to go swimming? Did you know that in France we have some swimming pools that they have special hours for the Muslim women to come swimming without being seen by the infidels or other men !? I don't care about that but once again, not special hours for the Muslim men... Regard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 The Muslim men can go when the scantily clad infidel ladies are cavorting in the pool. GOD IS GOOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adjan jb Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 France has banned ALL religious symbols. Including the US dollar. For our secular legislators, there was no doubt that, with "In God we trust" printed on each dead president, the American currency is a religious symbol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 We should all be thankful to the French government for having the guts to stand up against the Islamic extremists. They want only one thing....the subjugation of the entire world to their medieval beliefs!<snip> Do we really want to live in a Taliban-ruled society? Yes! For far too long the world has been held hostage to the evil plots of 14yr old girls in headscarves and we should thank the French government more saving us from them and the equally deadly menace of kids wearing over-size crosses. Just think of the damage they could cause if the cross came loose and fell on your foot... you could break a nail! The Talaban 'society' also banned religious symbols they disagreed with. cv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JemJem Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 To cdnvic : Haha...well written, man...I couldn't have expressed it better. The part about the cross really made me laugh here To Bruno : Hey, man.....either you haven't understood what I meant to write or you pretended you didn't understand. I looked at the matter from another perspective and talked about 'preferences'. I would PREFER to see all females without a headscarf but who am I to judge ? I actually prefer everyone NOT to believe in any religion (I am an agnostic myself) but who am I to have a say in others' beliefs. Life's stuff cannot all be according to your preferences. As for bigotry, yes, I stand by what I have written against bigotry...I speak out /write against bigotry even if the bigot is someone from my family. And, I have seen numerous posts here in this forum that was filled with bigotry.....against Muslims, against Indians, against gays and against Thai bar girls and some others I cannot remember now. I don't like bigotry....period. Regards, Jem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catmac Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 That's incredible the easy way to classified the people "brainless right-wingers". We can't give any argument without being called racist, xenophobe, bigot... Bruno 2004-02-17.Right on, Bruno! I knew that anybody that dared to support the French Government's stand would be denounced as a bigot, etc. but if they cared to read my post they would see that I have no problems with, or hatred of Muslims as such, but only with the Islamic Fundamentalist bigots! I specifically mentioned the horrendous slaughter of innocent muslim civilians by the extremists in Algeria, and I can't believe that cdnvic really thinks that the Taliban regime in Afghanistan was anything but evil. Of course, we can all go on waffling about the complexities of philosophy, culture and society. Wringing our hands as the problem gets worse and worse, just as the woolly-minded intelectuals did when faced with Hitler's breed of world domination in the 30's. But just look where that ended! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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