Thai Govt's Train Project ' Will Only Benefit The Rich'

[473geo]

Some poor excuses here, the fare is around the same as a first class ticket to Surin, any of you ever tried buying a couple of first class tickets a couple of days in advance, you are very fortunate indeed to find availabity. The increase in car/ute ownership will have a negative impact on road travel, the jams into central Bangkok are already a major time consuming part of travel and will only get worse. I particularily enjoy those who see a 2000 baht ticket as beyong the reach of the poor Thai, the Thai are frugal and will endure a great deal to save a baht or two, but there are not too many I am aware of that would have trouble finding 2000 baht if they chose to travel in comfort. Although I agree families would tend to utilise the ute as a more economical travel method. I don't forsee empty trains at all' infact quite the opposite, the 'rich' will probably avoid sitting next to a guy with a bag of rice and a bucket of live frogs......so in my opinion the headline is just another angle to justify the stalling tactics of the Democrats and is not based on knowledge or intuitive thinking

Edited March 30, 2013 by 473geo

[rubl]

We zig, we zag and therefor the Dem's are stalling?

"I particularily enjoy those who see a 2000 baht ticket as beyong the reach of the poor Thai, the Thai are frugal and will endure a great deal to save a baht or two, but there are not too many I am aware of that would have trouble finding 2000 baht if they chose to travel in comfort."
Translation: I'm not saying those who could actually would.

"Although I agree families would tend to utilise the ute as a more economical travel method. I don't forsee empty trains at all' infact quite the opposite, the 'rich' will probably avoid sitting next to a guy with a bag of rice and a bucket of live frogs"
Translation: no idea who would actually take the HSR, just mentioning those who 'probably' won't

"so in my opinion the headline is just another angle to justify the stalling tactics of the Democrats and is not based on knowledge or intuitive thinking"
Translation: based on nothing I say the Democrats are stalling

[OzMick]

Some poor excuses here, the fare is around the same as a first class ticket to Surin, any of you ever tried buying a couple of first class tickets a couple of days in advance, you are very fortunate indeed to find availabity. The increase in car/ute ownership will have a negative impact on road travel, the jams into central Bangkok are already a major time consuming part of travel and will only get worse. I particularily enjoy those who see a 2000 baht ticket as beyong the reach of the poor Thai, the Thai are frugal and will endure a great deal to save a baht or two, but there are not too many I am aware of that would have trouble finding 2000 baht if they chose to travel in comfort. Although I agree families would tend to utilise the ute as a more economical travel method. I don't forsee empty trains at all' infact quite the opposite, the 'rich' will probably avoid sitting next to a guy with a bag of rice and a bucket of live frogs......so in my opinion the headline is just another angle to justify the stalling tactics of the Democrats and is not based on knowledge or intuitive thinking

"a guy with a bag of rice and a bucket of live frogs....." ..........who carries them because he has just paid a week's income on a one-way train ticket.

[bigbamboo]

Posters are often accused of negativity on here so let's try to look for the positives.

Positive number one........there should be plenty of fresh fruit on board!

[isaanpaul]

Went last week with the sleeper nighttrain from Bkk to Surat thanee,80/90 km p hour,food, drinks available onboard and a very good bed to sleep.

A perfect trip and reasonable price.

Thailand is not ready for highspeed trains look wat happend in the rain seasons, let them start first with a normal train net like Europe country's.

Buy second hand trains and get some expieriance.

Thailand and his people is still a layback country and if traffic go's to fast here there are alway's bad accidents.

The slow train is a nice attraction and I hope they keep it in case the highspeed train go bad.

Best wishes for Thailand

isaanpaul

[Thai at Heart]

Posters are often accused of negativity on here so let's try to look for the positives.

Positive number one........there should be plenty of fresh fruit on board!

In the packed lunches that have been planned I presume? :-):-)

[maidu]

Hope they put a sturdy cattle guard on the front of it. If Thais are as responsible stopping at rail crossings as they are at road intersections, expect some bloody messes. I can see it now, Somchai with wife and 3 kids on motorbike, seeing a red flashing light, but thinking, "oh, that light flashes so often, it's probably broken, and I don't see anything coming, plus the motorbikes and cars are going around me and agilely slipping around the guard rail, what's the big deal, I'll just .......ayeeeeeee - splotcshe."

Plus, as all roads lead to Bkk, and most authorities who give a hoot, will concede that Bangkok will probably have year 'round standing water of 1 to 2 meters in the near future - will the train have jet ski floaters?

[473geo]

Some poor excuses here, the fare is around the same as a first class ticket to Surin, any of you ever tried buying a couple of first class tickets a couple of days in advance, you are very fortunate indeed to find availabity. The increase in car/ute ownership will have a negative impact on road travel, the jams into central Bangkok are already a major time consuming part of travel and will only get worse. I particularily enjoy those who see a 2000 baht ticket as beyong the reach of the poor Thai, the Thai are frugal and will endure a great deal to save a baht or two, but there are not too many I am aware of that would have trouble finding 2000 baht if they chose to travel in comfort. Although I agree families would tend to utilise the ute as a more economical travel method. I don't forsee empty trains at all' infact quite the opposite, the 'rich' will probably avoid sitting next to a guy with a bag of rice and a bucket of live frogs......so in my opinion the headline is just another angle to justify the stalling tactics of the Democrats and is not based on knowledge or intuitive thinking

"a guy with a bag of rice and a bucket of live frogs....." ..........who carries them because he has just paid a week's income on a one-way train ticket.

Taking them for his poor relatives working in BKK....

[rubl]

poor relatives ... who try not to curse their relative for spending 2000 Baht to bring a bag of rice and then borrows 2000 to go home again

[473geo]

poor relatives ... who try not to curse their relative for spending 2000 Baht to bring a bag of rice and then borrows 2000 to go home again

Perhaps Rubl, then karma will be good for both, and HST has yet another satisfied customer...

[rubl]

For 2000 Baht single fate I would expect all those millions and millions of potential HST customers would be happy customers assuming somehow someone would be able to turn them into real customers that is. That would be anytime soon now. With three years needed to build a first usable stretch. Now still March 2013, by Songkhran 2016 we might be so lucky :-)

[Thailand1977]

I think they have a valid point, many people in Thailand cannot afford such luxuries as high speed trains.

IMO a better use for some of the $$$ would be to improve existing train services. The current trains in

service as in a poor state averaging 30-40 years old. Thought you had to walk before you can run but

with 30-40% off the top it is hard to pass up

Improve the existing trains services and upgrade the current highway/express ways first, but Thai Gov't

are not thinking of the majority

Maybe they ought to get rid of 5 star hotels and the airports as poor people cant afford these either.

The article does say they are upgrading existing trains, but high speed rail is a very good idea imho.

40 billion pound approx seems a decent price, in England theyre talking of building a high speed line from London to Birmingham for 30 billion and its only 160KM. Steel and trains cost the same no matter where you are.

The difference in the UK is that it costs a huge amount to buy up the land needed for the route, and to compensate people who live nearby. Also, workers cost much more in the UK. It's not just the cost of the steel and trains.

I accept wages are higher but the cost of the UK line pro rata is 8 times more.

Farm land in the UK and Thailand both compete in global markets to sell their produce thus i am guessing the prices of farmland are similar .... so it just shows that Britain is far more interested in giving huge subsidies to wealthy land owners.

[thaicbr]

Let's face it the ONLY reason this High speed train idea is seeing the light of day is that Thaksin wants it.

He rode one in China and decided Thailand should have one....... even though we haven't even got double track yet....the man's an idiot.

As others have said spend the money on modernization of the existing rail service and especially the roads. Create decent u-turns etc.

[thaicbr]

I think they have a valid point, many people in Thailand cannot afford such luxuries as high speed trains.

IMO a better use for some of the $$$ would be to improve existing train services. The current trains in

service as in a poor state averaging 30-40 years old. Thought you had to walk before you can run but

with 30-40% off the top it is hard to pass up

Improve the existing trains services and upgrade the current highway/express ways first, but Thai Gov't

are not thinking of the majority

Maybe they ought to get rid of 5 star hotels and the airports as poor people cant afford these either.

The article does say they are upgrading existing trains, but high speed rail is a very good idea imho.

40 billion pound approx seems a decent price, in England theyre talking of building a high speed line from London to Birmingham for 30 billion and its only 160KM. Steel and trains cost the same no matter where you are.

The difference in the UK is that it costs a huge amount to buy up the land needed for the route, and to compensate people who live nearby. Also, workers cost much more in the UK. It's not just the cost of the steel and trains.

I accept wages are higher but the cost of the UK line pro rata is 8 times more.

Farm land in the UK and Thailand both compete in global markets to sell their produce thus i am guessing the prices of farmland are similar .... so it just shows that Britain is far more interested in giving huge subsidies to wealthy land owners.

Hahaha. Your guessing land in the Uk is the same price or similar to Thailand.

Unskilled labour Thailand min 300b per day. UK min 2.200b

And most Uk rail contractors would not be considered unskilled. So Jack that up to min 4.000b per day. Even if tge manual workers in thailand are skilled!!!! It would only be about 6-800 b a day. Easy to see why its more.

[473geo]

Let's face it the ONLY reason this High speed train idea is seeing the light of day is that Thaksin wants it.

He rode one in China and decided Thailand should have one....... even though we haven't even got double track yet....the man's an idiot.

As others have said spend the money on modernization of the existing rail service and especially the roads. Create decent u-turns etc.

Really........

Thai opposition leader calls for early construction of high-speed rail linking China via Laos

BANGKOK, March 29 (Xinhua) -- Former Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva urged Thursday the government to build a high- speed railway to link Thailand with China via Laos at the initial stage of a historic 730-billion-U.S.-dollar logistics reconstruction scheme. (source CN people daily online) must have it wrong....unless you think Abhisit is an idiot too?

[Crazy chef 1]

Just curious, has there been any announcements in parallel to this proposed project to increase the capability of the intermodal transportation hubs for the goods supply chain or is this outsourced to the business world? Also has the cost for maintenance factored in the ROI for the project? Below is an outline for European costs for maintaining a dual track rail network from 2009. You have to factor in lower labour costs in Thailand, but it isn't inexpensive.

"The other cost that is independent of the number of riders is track maintenance. One recent European estimate puts that cost at $140,000 a mile per year for a two-track system. A feasibility study of high-speed rail in Britain came up with the considerably higher figure of $493,000 a mile for surface trains"

Why maintenance ?this train is planned,developed,build and made in t

Thailand- so no maintenance required!!!

[soi41]

Been reading the whole thread. Depressing! It's like a subforum on Taliban-Visa. Stop all modernisation (sp), some poster even suggesting, buying 2hand trains from Europe. As for the headline, only for the rich, same goes for cars, so Thailand should stop selling cars?? Other poster suggesting dualtracking the existing railnetwork, don't you guys ever READ the local news, because that is one of the mainfeatures in the new infrastructureplan. Too dark on the barstool the read the paper ? Or is 30 baht (small Leo) too expensive to keep yourselves up-to-date ?

Living in Hua Hin the ticketprice going to Bkk would be around 600-700 baht, from citycenter to citycenter, yes I would use it, and I am sure many with me! And plenty of Thais can easilly afford the fares.

All the negativity on threads like this, IMO comes from the fact that, the political and economic power for the next century belongs to Asia and not our petty homecountries!

[khaowong1]

I'm just wondering, will they have special seats for monks, and will we be allowed to ride for free?

[Payboy]

I'm just wondering, will they have special seats for monks, and will we be allowed to ride for free?

Depends on whether you will be giving out lottery numbers.

[RaoulDuke]

I guess we can just completely ignore the environmental impact (the dwindling supply/skyrocketing demand and price of fuel), as well as the carbon footprint of airplanes and old locomotives. We could also ignore the fact that many airports are already operating near capacity, and the fact that the skies have become congested with traffic, two factors bound to get worse with the expansion of the middle class throughout Asia. We can pretend that electricity cannot be created in a renewable manner (just because solar power works in super warm and sunny places like...Germany, it does not mean it could possibly work in Thailand).

Lets just keep doing the same thing we have been doing in the past, after all, it is working so well! It is not like Thailand has anything to worry about if sea levels keep rising at unprecedented rates, while we continue to dump 100's of millions of years worth of stored carbon into the air over a period of 200 years.

[thaicbr]

Let's face it the ONLY reason this High speed train idea is seeing the light of day is that Thaksin wants it.

He rode one in China and decided Thailand should have one....... even though we haven't even got double track yet....the man's an idiot.

As others have said spend the money on modernization of the existing rail service and especially the roads. Create decent u-turns etc.

Really........

Thai opposition leader calls for early construction of high-speed rail linking China via Laos

BANGKOK, March 29 (Xinhua) -- Former Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva urged Thursday the government to build a high- speed railway to link Thailand with China via Laos at the initial stage of a historic 730-billion-U.S.-dollar logistics reconstruction scheme. (source CN people daily online) must have it wrong....unless you think Abhisit is an idiot too?

Abhisit an idiot... sometimes yes. Everyone has an idiot moment from time to time. Some more than others.

[dcutman]

Been reading the whole thread. Depressing! It's like a subforum on Taliban-Visa. Stop all modernisation (sp), some poster even suggesting, buying 2hand trains from Europe. As for the headline, only for the rich, same goes for cars, so Thailand should stop selling cars?? Other poster suggesting dualtracking the existing railnetwork, don't you guys ever READ the local news, because that is one of the mainfeatures in the new infrastructureplan. Too dark on the barstool the read the paper ? Or is 30 baht (small Leo) too expensive to keep yourselves up-to-date ?

Living in Hua Hin the ticketprice going to Bkk would be around 600-700 baht, from citycenter to citycenter, yes I would use it, and I am sure many with me! And plenty of Thais can easilly afford the fares.

All the negativity on threads like this, IMO comes from the fact that, the political and economic power for the next century belongs to Asia and not our petty homecountries!

So you are ok with polluted water and beaches, raw sewage running in the streets, and garbage piled along the roadsides. Just as long as there is a HSR? There is a difference between modernization and a show pony.

[thaicbr]

Been reading the whole thread. Depressing! It's like a subforum on Taliban-Visa. Stop all modernisation (sp), some poster even suggesting, buying 2hand trains from Europe. As for the headline, only for the rich, same goes for cars, so Thailand should stop selling cars?? Other poster suggesting dualtracking the existing railnetwork, don't you guys ever READ the local news, because that is one of the mainfeatures in the new infrastructureplan. Too dark on the barstool the read the paper ? Or is 30 baht (small Leo) too expensive to keep yourselves up-to-date ?

Living in Hua Hin the ticketprice going to Bkk would be around 600-700 baht, from citycenter to citycenter, yes I would use it, and I am sure many with me! And plenty of Thais can easilly afford the fares.

All the negativity on threads like this, IMO comes from the fact that, the political and economic power for the next century belongs to Asia and not our petty homecountries!

What thread you been reading.. it had been stated numerous times that it includes dual tracking the existing tracks. What's not clear is what comes first and WHY they need to get such a huge loan NOW for projects that are up to 7 years away from starting let alone completing. Most countries use their yearly budgets and if its a larger infrastructure plan they secure loans in principal after due diligence and on a per project basis. This idea about lumping them all together is pretty much what PT did for the 350 billion flood money. What's happened to that??? Or the allocation of budget for the new car owners scheme that has gone massively over budget because they kept extending it (but at least they have that money because the car makers already paid) but wait do they have the money due to the ever increasing burden of paying for overpriced rice and storing it.

If I was Thai I would want and insist that they upgrade the trains. But High speed train... nope don't need it. A decent modern railway is fast enough.

[soi41]

Been reading the whole thread. Depressing! It's like a subforum on Taliban-Visa. Stop all modernisation (sp), some poster even suggesting, buying 2hand trains from Europe. As for the headline, only for the rich, same goes for cars, so Thailand should stop selling cars?? Other poster suggesting dualtracking the existing railnetwork, don't you guys ever READ the local news, because that is one of the mainfeatures in the new infrastructureplan. Too dark on the barstool the read the paper ? Or is 30 baht (small Leo) too expensive to keep yourselves up-to-date ?

Living in Hua Hin the ticketprice going to Bkk would be around 600-700 baht, from citycenter to citycenter, yes I would use it, and I am sure many with me! And plenty of Thais can easilly afford the fares.

All the negativity on threads like this, IMO comes from the fact that, the political and economic power for the next century belongs to Asia and not our petty homecountries!

So you are ok with polluted water and beaches, raw sewage running in the streets, and garbage piled along the roadsides. Just as long as there is a HSR? There is a difference between modernization and a show pony.

You might have a point there! Many things could be improved here, but this was a thread about trains, HST and DUALTRACKING. And as for the pollution-perspective, I hope that a better railnetwork, will get some cars off the road, especially some of all old dieseltrucks, now providing the only longhaul alternative within the kingdom.

[soi41]

Been reading the whole thread. Depressing! It's like a subforum on Taliban-Visa. Stop all modernisation (sp), some poster even suggesting, buying 2hand trains from Europe. As for the headline, only for the rich, same goes for cars, so Thailand should stop selling cars?? Other poster suggesting dualtracking the existing railnetwork, don't you guys ever READ the local news, because that is one of the mainfeatures in the new infrastructureplan. Too dark on the barstool the read the paper ? Or is 30 baht (small Leo) too expensive to keep yourselves up-to-date ?

Living in Hua Hin the ticketprice going to Bkk would be around 600-700 baht, from citycenter to citycenter, yes I would use it, and I am sure many with me! And plenty of Thais can easilly afford the fares.

All the negativity on threads like this, IMO comes from the fact that, the political and economic power for the next century belongs to Asia and not our petty homecountries!

What thread you been reading.. it had been stated numerous times that it includes dual tracking the existing tracks. What's not clear is what comes first and WHY they need to get such a huge loan NOW for projects that are up to 7 years away from starting let alone completing. Most countries use their yearly budgets and if its a larger infrastructure plan they secure loans in principal after due diligence and on a per project basis. This idea about lumping them all together is pretty much what PT did for the 350 billion flood money. What's happened to that??? Or the allocation of budget for the new car owners scheme that has gone massively over budget because they kept extending it (but at least they have that money because the car makers already paid) but wait do they have the money due to the ever increasing burden of paying for overpriced rice and storing it.

If I was Thai I would want and insist that they upgrade the trains. But High speed train... nope don't need it. A decent modern railway is fast enough.

"that are up to 7 years away from starting"

Wrong!

Dualtracking has already started in some places (Korat and Prachuap) and the rest is projected to start no later than 2014.

As for HST. All 4 lines are to start this year.

[thaicbr]

Been reading the whole thread. Depressing! It's like a subforum on Taliban-Visa. Stop all modernisation (sp), some poster even suggesting, buying 2hand trains from Europe. As for the headline, only for the rich, same goes for cars, so Thailand should stop selling cars?? Other poster suggesting dualtracking the existing railnetwork, don't you guys ever READ the local news, because that is one of the mainfeatures in the new infrastructureplan. Too dark on the barstool the read the paper ? Or is 30 baht (small Leo) too expensive to keep yourselves up-to-date ?

Living in Hua Hin the ticketprice going to Bkk would be around 600-700 baht, from citycenter to citycenter, yes I would use it, and I am sure many with me! And plenty of Thais can easilly afford the fares.

All the negativity on threads like this, IMO comes from the fact that, the political and economic power for the next century belongs to Asia and not our petty homecountries!

What thread you been reading.. it had been stated numerous times that it includes dual tracking the existing tracks. What's not clear is what comes first and WHY they need to get such a huge loan NOW for projects that are up to 7 years away from starting let alone completing. Most countries use their yearly budgets and if its a larger infrastructure plan they secure loans in principal after due diligence and on a per project basis. This idea about lumping them all together is pretty much what PT did for the 350 billion flood money. What's happened to that??? Or the allocation of budget for the new car owners scheme that has gone massively over budget because they kept extending it (but at least they have that money because the car makers already paid) but wait do they have the money due to the ever increasing burden of paying for overpriced rice and storing it.

If I was Thai I would want and insist that they upgrade the trains. But High speed train... nope don't need it. A decent modern railway is fast enough.

"that are up to 7 years away from starting"

Wrong!

Dualtracking has already started in some places (Korat and Prachuap) and the rest is projected to start no later than 2014.

As for HST. All 4 lines are to start this year.

Really! Could you quote your source please. With pictures if you have any.

I'm wondering how they can start anything without the funding and environment assessments completed. But if you have source material which clearly show that work has started I will eat humble pie.

[Thailand1977]

I think they have a valid point, many people in Thailand cannot afford such luxuries as high speed trains.

IMO a better use for some of the $$$ would be to improve existing train services. The current trains in

service as in a poor state averaging 30-40 years old. Thought you had to walk before you can run but

with 30-40% off the top it is hard to pass up

Improve the existing trains services and upgrade the current highway/express ways first, but Thai Gov't

are not thinking of the majority

Maybe they ought to get rid of 5 star hotels and the airports as poor people cant afford these either.

The article does say they are upgrading existing trains, but high speed rail is a very good idea imho.

40 billion pound approx seems a decent price, in England theyre talking of building a high speed line from London to Birmingham for 30 billion and its only 160KM. Steel and trains cost the same no matter where you are.

The difference in the UK is that it costs a huge amount to buy up the land needed for the route, and to compensate people who live nearby. Also, workers cost much more in the UK. It's not just the cost of the steel and trains.

I accept wages are higher but the cost of the UK line pro rata is 8 times more.

Farm land in the UK and Thailand both compete in global markets to sell their produce thus i am guessing the prices of farmland are similar .... so it just shows that Britain is far more interested in giving huge subsidies to wealthy land owners.

Hahaha. Your guessing land in the Uk is the same price or similar to Thailand.

Unskilled labour Thailand min 300b per day. UK min 2.200b

And most Uk rail contractors would not be considered unskilled. So Jack that up to min 4.000b per day. Even if tge manual workers in thailand are skilled!!!! It would only be about 6-800 b a day. Easy to see why its more.

What are you going on about?

Do you think it would be in your interest to learn to read what people write before jumping in and commenting, also why the need to go in the quote boxes and alter things?

[473geo]

Let's face it the ONLY reason this High speed train idea is seeing the light of day is that Thaksin wants it.

He rode one in China and decided Thailand should have one....... even though we haven't even got double track yet....the man's an idiot.

As others have said spend the money on modernization of the existing rail service and especially the roads. Create decent u-turns etc.

Really........

Thai opposition leader calls for early construction of high-speed rail linking China via Laos

BANGKOK, March 29 (Xinhua) -- Former Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva urged Thursday the government to build a high- speed railway to link Thailand with China via Laos at the initial stage of a historic 730-billion-U.S.-dollar logistics reconstruction scheme. (source CN people daily online) must have it wrong....unless you think Abhisit is an idiot too?

Abhisit an idiot... sometimes yes. Everyone has an idiot moment from time to time. Some more than others.

Don't be too hard on yourself there are many who struggle with the quotes edit

[Thailand1977]

I guess we can just completely ignore the environmental impact (the dwindling supply/skyrocketing demand and price of fuel), as well as the carbon footprint of airplanes and old locomotives. We could also ignore the fact that many airports are already operating near capacity, and the fact that the skies have become congested with traffic, two factors bound to get worse with the expansion of the middle class throughout Asia. We can pretend that electricity cannot be created in a renewable manner (just because solar power works in super warm and sunny places like...Germany, it does not mean it could possibly work in Thailand).

Lets just keep doing the same thing we have been doing in the past, after all, it is working so well! It is not like Thailand has anything to worry about if sea levels keep rising at unprecedented rates, while we continue to dump 100's of millions of years worth of stored carbon into the air over a period of 200 years.

Do you fly to Thailand, if the answer to that is no then good on you for doing your bit for the environment, if it is yes then you are a hypocritical environutjob.

[473geo]

I guess we can just completely ignore the environmental impact (the dwindling supply/skyrocketing demand and price of fuel), as well as the carbon footprint of airplanes and old locomotives. We could also ignore the fact that many airports are already operating near capacity, and the fact that the skies have become congested with traffic, two factors bound to get worse with the expansion of the middle class throughout Asia. We can pretend that electricity cannot be created in a renewable manner (just because solar power works in super warm and sunny places like...Germany, it does not mean it could possibly work in Thailand).

Lets just keep doing the same thing we have been doing in the past, after all, it is working so well! It is not like Thailand has anything to worry about if sea levels keep rising at unprecedented rates, while we continue to dump 100's of millions of years worth of stored carbon into the air over a period of 200 years.

Do you fly to Thailand, if the answer to that is no then good on you for doing your bit for the environment, if it is yes then you are a hypocritical environutjob.

Not necessarily depends if like myself he works to offset the flight in his carbon footprint