Help With Appeal Please.

[case69]

Hello, recently my Thai wife and i have received refusal of entry clearance for her 13 year old son to visit us in the uk for six months. My wife has I.L.R. and i am a British national. The reason for refusal states that there is doubt over the intentions of the visit because the eco thinks its for her son to study. He has good reason to think this because she was unaware a document she had prepared in thailand for her ex husband to sign giving his consent to the visit had this line (i Mrs Thai person mother of Master Thai person wish to take my son to be supported and maintained and further study abroad). This is obviously a huge mistake on our part as we well know study is not allowed on a 6 month visit visa unless funded personally. How do we prove that this was just a genuine mistake. We plan to go to the appeal in person, do we fill out form IAFT-2 and send it asap or wait until we have all other supporting documents such as a letter from his school in Thailand which was the only other thing the eco said was missing. Will they need the original refusal notice because ours is a faxed copy because we are in England. We would be very greatfull for any help or suggestions on this matter kind regards case69.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

With respect, that will be a tough appeal to win. Proving that the letter was a mistake, or convincing the ECO that it was, will be difficult because it is there, in writing, that the intention is for the child to study in the UK. If you appear at the appeal then you may be able to put up a good and convincing case that it was a genuine error on someone's part, and you may have a sympathetic Immigration Judge who agrees with you.

Some basic, and obvious questions - you say that your wife prepared the letter, so how did she not know what was in it ? How long was the visit visa application for ? Was it during the Thai school holidays ?

If you can post the refusal notice here ( removing the pesonal details first), it would be easier for us to comment. But, I think you have an uphill task. The appeal procedure will take, probably, 6 - 8 months, and is going to cost you 140 GBP. You might want to think about making a new application instaed, but it will have to be a very good one. If you want to contact our office ( contact details can be obtained from the website by clicking on the Thai Visa Express avatar on the left ) we can give you the name of an OISC registered immigration advisor in the UK. He is Level 3 registered, and can deal with immigration appeals. I'm sure he will be able to tell you if you have a good chance of success or not.

[Jay Sata]

Just goes to show if you don't check all the documentation major problems can arise.

It appears she prepared the paperwork in Thailand.

she was unaware a document she had prepared in thailand for her ex husband to sign giving his consent to the visit had this line (i Mrs Thai person mother of Master Thai person wish to take my son to be supported and maintained and further study abroad).

It often seems that Thai partners have no concept of how a paragraph translates or the meanings it carries with an ECO.

Good luck with sorting the problem out and I'd suggest an agent the next time.

[case69]

Yes she added the document after i had prepared all the paperwork in England and then she went to Thailand to see her son and submit the application. She just didn,t read it through properly and says the office that prepared it for her were never asked to mention education. Thanks for the advise so far.

[theoldgit]

In addition to the comments already made, you have stated that the lad wanted to go to the UK for six months, that's one heck of a visit, the ECO might well have been justified in thinking that the letter staying he wanted to study was in fact the purpose of the visit.

I have to agree with TVE that it will be a difficult decision to overturn.

I personally think you would be better off re-applying, but you would need to address the reasons for refusal, and leave the ECO in no doubt that it's a genuine application and outlining strong and compelling reasons to return home.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[ThaiVisaExpress]

In addition to the comments already made, you have stated that the lad wanted to go to the UK for six months, that's one heck of a visit, the ECO might well have been justified in thinking that the letter staying he wanted to study was in fact the purpose of the visit.

I have to agree with TVE that it will be a difficult decision to overturn.

I personally think you would be better off re-applying, but you would need to address the reasons for refusal, and leave the ECO in no doubt that it's a genuine application and outlining strong and compelling reasons to return home.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Thanks for pointing out that it was an application for a 6 month visit. That kind of makes my questions a bit superfluous. It is a long visit, and there is, I believe, an obligation for the child to be in full time education if he is in the UK for that length of time, and under the age of 16. That would leave the ECO little choice but to refuse the application if no arrangements for private education had been made ( as the child cannot attend a state school). I can't help but say that, if I had been the ECO, I would probably have come to the same decision.

Tony M.

[7by7]

As I understand it, general and family visitors are barred from studying, whether state or privately funded.

Or is that just adult visitors?

[Jay Sata]

As I understand it, general and family visitors are barred from studying, whether state or privately funded.

Or is that just adult visitors?

Tourist or visitor visas are just that. A visa issued for a holiday or to see family.

Generally speaking they do not allow access to any state funded facility. Enrolling a child in a school suggests long term plans outside the scope of the visa.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that although visa's are issued with a six month validity it makes a lot more sense in cases like this to just ask for a couple of months in the application.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Jay Sata

[Tony M]

As I understand it, general and family visitors are barred from studying, whether state or privately funded.

Or is that just adult visitors?

7x7, visitors are indeed banned from studying, but that seems to be in direct contradiction to UK law which says that they must be in education until 16 ( whether British or not). Six months in the Uk would, I think, require that the child is in education, and that is where the problem lies. The ECO must refuse. A visit of a couple of weeks would not cause any problem, but I think six months does.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Tony M

[Tony M]

As I understand it, general and family visitors are barred from studying, whether state or privately funded.

Or is that just adult visitors?

Tourist or visitor visas are just that. A visa issued for a holiday or to see family.

Generally speaking they do not allow access to any state funded facility. Enrolling a child in a school suggests long term plans outside the scope of the visa.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that although visa's are issued with a six month validity it makes a lot more sense in cases like this to just ask for a couple of months in the application.

Yet again, you offer poor advice ( and you haven't ever recognised that you have previously done so. You just kept quiet for a month, then you come back and start offering bad advice again). To advise someone in this kind of situation to apply for a short visit when a longer visit is intended is wrong in many ways. Yes, legally the child could stay for the full six months, even if they applied for two months, but how would that affect any future applications for this child ( who didn't return to school in Thailand after one/two months as they presumably would say in the application, etc, etc) ? I have said it before to you, and I say it again, if you can't give good and sensible advice, then please don't offer any. The advice you have given could cause big problems for the applicant and the sponsors.

[Seekingasylum]

I'm always interested in these sorts of cases from the point of view of the sponsors. Is the OP able to say just what purpose was to be served by such a lengthy visit? Did he think it wise to deprive a 13 year old of 6 months education? I should imagine the unfortunate document was prepared by an author who, like me, would find it inconceivable such a young person would remain for such a long stay without recourse to some education.

Perhaps a settlement application might be the more sensible course and more congruent with mother's intentions?

[7by7]

As the OP says that they obtained the consent of the boy's father to the visit this indicates that he (the father) is still around and taking an active interest in the boy's upbringing and welfare.

Which means that any settlement application could well run into difficulty on sole responsibility grounds.

[Seekingasylum]

That is somewhat of an assumption perhaps too far.

The usual arrangement may well be that mum supports child through the maternal side at mum's direction excluding father from the process except as it may bear on compliance with legal niceties.

Still, there it is. Either way, 6 month visits for 13 year old children are just silly. The appeal will fail.

[marstons]

If were the ECO would take some convincing it was just a huge mistake made by somebody who already has ILR in UK and is familiar with the rules, as OP stated he is. Up hill battle with justification.

[case69]

Well, i have to thank everyone for the smack in the face reality check, you know i just never thought that the boy would be deprived of education, shows what i know. thought 6 months was just a standard holiday visit. What is an accepted amount of time for a minor to visit, 6 weeks summer holiday.

[wooloomooloo]

Another smack in the face, case69, and apologies. But the damage appears to be done.

Only under the guidance of a quality OISC regulated immigration advisor would you have a hope to overturn the decision.

What's done is done. Please desist from digging a deeper hole without direction.

You have few options - admit defeat or reapply with direction or appeal with direction / or without if you like. But next roll of the dice is your last for some considerable time.

[David48]

The OP asks ...

What is an accepted amount of time for a minor to visit, 6 weeks summer holiday.

You could take your clue and timing of such from the Thai School Holidays as he is living there and returning to that system.

.

[Jay Sata]

Well, i have to thank everyone for the smack in the face reality check, you know i just never thought that the boy would be deprived of education, shows what i know. thought 6 months was just a standard holiday visit. What is an accepted amount of time for a minor to visit, 6 weeks summer holiday.

Work it out for yourself.

Six weeks is OK for a kid to have a holiday during the Thai Songkran period. Six months is a no go for UK authorities for an immigrant kid.

Better you give your wife a reality check.

[MikeandDow]

Well, i have to thank everyone for the smack in the face reality check, you know i just never thought that the boy would be deprived of education, shows what i know. thought 6 months was just a standard holiday visit. What is an accepted amount of time for a minor to visit, 6 weeks summer holiday.

Work it out for yourself.

Six weeks is OK for a kid to have a holiday during the Thai Songkran period. Six months is a no go for UK authorities for an immigrant kid.

Better you give your wife a reality check.

Verbal diarrhea from this poster does not know what he is talking about

[bangkockney]

As I understand it, general and family visitors are barred from studying, whether state or privately funded.

Or is that just adult visitors?

Tourist or visitor visas are just that. A visa issued for a holiday or to see family.

Generally speaking they do not allow access to any state funded facility. Enrolling a child in a school suggests long term plans outside the scope of the visa.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that although visa's are issued with a six month validity it makes a lot more sense in cases like this to just ask for a couple of months in the application.

As I understand it, general and family visitors are barred from studying, whether state or privately funded.

Or is that just adult visitors?

7x7, visitors are indeed banned from studying, but that seems to be in direct contradiction to UK law which says that they must be in education until 16 ( whether British or not). Six months in the Uk would, I think, require that the child is in education, and that is where the problem lies. The ECO must refuse. A visit of a couple of weeks would not cause any problem, but I think six months does.

This is not strictly true. Children (up to 18 years old) can study in the UK for up to six months on a child visitor visa.

AFAIK, the ECO is not expected to judge whether six months out of formal Thai education, whilst studying say English, is acceptable or not. They are to judge if the application meets the UK immigration rules.

OP, an appeal is a waste of resources, it surely can't succeed. You have a choice of a shorter visit, or arrange a suitable place of study for a longer period of time in the UK.

Some more thinking is required as from the little you've posted, it appears you lack documentation to support either application.

[bobrussell]

A student visitor visa will allow up to six months study. A standard visit or family visa will not.

http://www.educationuk.org/userfiles/file/LK_DOC_01_UK_Border_Agency_Notice_Visa_Information.pdf

Obviously the barrack room lawyers amongst us will tell you an appeal will fail. I tend to agree!

A fresh application with a more realistic visit time would be a more sensible thing to do IMO. You will need to get the Thai school on board and carefully cover the 'mistakes' in this application. I suspect this is the only alternative to actually arranging a legitimate education course.

The UK government will not allow a 13 year old to go without 'proper' education for six months so will hardly aid this for a foreign child. Get him over for a proper holiday.

[Tony M]

bangkokney said

"This is not strictly true. Children (up to 18 years old) can study in the UK for up to six months on a child visitor visa.
AFAIK, the ECO is not expected to judge whether six months out of formal Thai education, whilst studying say English, is acceptable or not. They are to judge if the application meets the UK immigration rules.
OP, an appeal is a waste of resources, it surely can't succeed. You have a choice of a shorter visit, or arrange a suitable place of study for a longer period of time in the UK.
Some more thinking is required as from the little you've posted, it appears you lack documentation to support either application."

You are correct. The fact that it is allowed ( child visitors being able to study while on a visit) is, I think, because of the legal obligation for them to be in education under the age of 16. To say that they can't study would be in direct contradiction to the law. But it is not necessarily simply a matter of pitching up in the UK as a child visitor, and popping along to the local school for 6 months. Arrangements must be made in advance, and I think that that would be necessary for a visit of 6 months. ECOs are fully aware that children under 16 should really be in full time education, and will take that into consideration. In this case, it may well be that the child applicant doesn't speak any English, and attending school could be a problem unless he is properly enrolled on a language course, with all the added costs, etc. The requirements for a child visitor to study include:

You can undertake a short course of study ( as a child visitor) during your visit, if it is provided by an organisation which is:

• a licensed sponsor under Tier 4 of the points-based system; or
• accredited by an accreditation body which has been approved by the UK Border Agency (see below); or
• inspected by either the Office for Standards in Education (Ofsted), Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Education in Scotland, Estyn, Northern Ireland's Education and Training Inspectorate or the Independent Schools Inspectorate (ISI).

You may also participate in a short visit exchange programme with or educational visit to a UK school. This must be a maintained school, a non-maintained special school or an independent (fee-paying or non-fee-paying) school. You must submit full details of the school offering the programme, and full details of the care arrangements in place covering your full stay in the UK.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Tony M

[bobrussell]

A student visitor visa will allow up to six months study. A standard visit or family visa will not.

http://www.educationuk.org/userfiles/file/LK_DOC_01_UK_Border_Agency_Notice_Visa_Information.pdf

Obviously the barrack room lawyers amongst us will tell you an appeal will fail. I tend to agree!

A fresh application with a more realistic visit time would be a more sensible thing to do IMO. You will need to get the Thai school on board and carefully cover the 'mistakes' in this application. I suspect this is the only alternative to actually arranging a legitimate education course.

The UK government will not allow a 13 year old to go without 'proper' education for six months so will hardly aid this for a foreign child. Get him over for a proper holiday.

I stand corrected! It does say that a child visitor can study!

[case69]

Thanks for all the replies, we will not be appealing and just have to accept we messed this application up regards case.

[7by7]

Your choice.

But remember that you are going to have to deal satisfactorily with each and every reason for this refusal in the new application, otherwise he will just be refused again