Plane Overshoots The Runway In Bali And Goes Into The Sea

[Asiantravel]

Plane overshoots the runway in Bali and goes into the sea

" The company has been involved in a scandal - in January last year Indonesia's Transportation Ministry said that in recent months a number of crew members had been found in possession of crystal meth "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2308475/Plane-carrying-172-passengers-overshoots-runway-Bali-goes-sea.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22134380

Edited April 13, 2013 by Asiantravel

[lazygourmet]

Hopefully all the passengers were unharmed.

24 hrs ago -same time- i was at that airport waiting for Thai Airways flight... I would have missed Songkran that's for sure :-(((

[Tywais]

Reports that all 172 passengers are safe.

Interesting runway. I don't remember it being that short.

[Asiantravel]

there were reports on ABC Australia News that someone like a crew member had made a remark that the plane should never have taken off in the first place because there had been a problem with one of its engines. Anyway, I'm sure it will all come out.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Asiantravel

[khaosai]

Reports that all 172 passengers are safe.

Interesting runway. I don't remember it being that short.

Hi,

The runway there is in the region of 3000 metres long so it's plenty long enough for aircraft operations.

Glad all survived the ordeal.

[SeaVisionBurma]

OP - what was your reason for putting the bit about crystal meth allegations in this post about the crash?

[Asiantravel]

OP - what was your reason for putting the bit about crystal meth allegations in this post about the crash?

Because it evoked two things in my mind......

1 . Just a few weeks ago I saw a movie called “ Flight “ starring Denzel Washington about a plane crash in USA. Denzel Washington played the captain who just hours before the crash consumed marijuana and subsequently alcohol. It poses a question about safety in this day and age when flight crew are under considerable pressure to perform as to whether checks and balances are adequate?

http://www.paramount.com/flight/#story

2. A couple of days ago I read about a Romanian pilot who drank three glasses of wine the night before a flight from London to Bucharest , who was given a suspended prison sentence in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307064/Romanian-pilot-Radu-Cristea-performed-Red-Arrows-twice-drink-fly-limit.html

I just think we have to be mindful of hopefully rare incidents where pilots are operating aircraft when they shouldn't be?

And by the way it’s not an allegation! They were actually found in possession of illegal substances? Don't you think that is outrageous?

Edited April 14, 2013 by Asiantravel

[harrry]

OP - what was your reason for putting the bit about crystal meth allegations in this post about the crash?

The fact that it was reported in the foreign press that airline pilots of that airline were reported in foreign media as having been disiplined by the Indonesian Air tranport authorities is surely relevent.

The Indonesian Transportation Ministry sanctioned it last year because several of its pilots and crew had been found in possession of crystal methamphetamines.

"We have reprimanded the airline and revoked the license of the pilots and crew," the ministry’s air transportation director general, Herry Bhakti Gumay, said at the time.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/passenger-plane-crashes-into-sea-20130413-2hsd5.html#ixzz2QPgkccwr

[lopburi3]

Add to the fact the airline has a history of missing airport runways (this seems to have been another as never reached the airport from latest reports) and apparent history of drug use as below:

The pilot and co-pilot will be tested to ensure they were healthy during the flight, and they will also undergo drug testing, said Ervan of the Transportation Ministry. Five pilots from Lion Air have been arrested for illicit drug use in the past two years.

The airline has been involved in six accidents since 2002, four of them involving Boeing 737s and one resulting in 25 deaths, according to the Aviation Safety Network's website.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2013/04/13/lion-air-plane-skids-into-sea-in-bali-indonesia/2079623/

[MrWorldwide]

Lion Air don't have a great safety rep, but compared to Garuda they are up there with Qantas. Anyone remember Yogya ? Amateurs, pure and simple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garuda_Indonesia#Incidents_and_accidents

On 7 March 2007, Garuda Indonesia Flight 200, a Boeing 737–400 flying from Jakarta, crashed and burst into flames on landing atAdisucipto International Airport, Yogyakarta at 07.00 am. 21 people were killed

[Asiantravel]

Add to the fact the airline has a history of missing airport runways (this seems to have been another as never reached the airport from latest reports) and apparent history of drug use as below:

The pilot and co-pilot will be tested to ensure they were healthy during the flight, and they will also undergo drug testing, said Ervan of the Transportation Ministry. Five pilots from Lion Air have been arrested for illicit drug use in the past two years.

The airline has been involved in six accidents since 2002, four of them involving Boeing 737s and one resulting in 25 deaths, according to the Aviation Safety Network's website.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2013/04/13/lion-air-plane-skids-into-sea-in-bali-indonesia/2079623/

What a lot of people are asking (including me!) is how did they get the money for this , considering just a few years ago they were a relatively small airline?

Boeing gets biggest order ever from Lion Air

Lion Air, a large private carrier in Indonesia, ordered a total of 230 airplanes with a list price of $21.7 billion. That includes 201 of the redesigned Boeing 737 "MAX" and 29 extended range 737s.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/story/2011-11-17/Boeing-gets-biggest-order-ever-from-Lion-Air/51265828/1

[Tywais]

Add to the fact the airline has a history of missing airport runways (this seems to have been another as never reached the airport from latest reports) and apparent history of drug use as below:

The pilot and co-pilot will be tested to ensure they were healthy during the flight, and they will also undergo drug testing, said Ervan of the Transportation Ministry. Five pilots from Lion Air have been arrested for illicit drug use in the past two years.

The airline has been involved in six accidents since 2002, four of them involving Boeing 737s and one resulting in 25 deaths, according to the Aviation Safety Network's we

bsite.ockquote>

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/2013/04/13/lion-air-plane-skids-into-sea-in-bali-indonesia/2079623/

What a lot of people are asking (including me!) is how did they get the money for this , considering just a few years ago they were a relatively small airline?

Boeing gets biggest order ever from Lion Air

Lion Air, a large private carrier in Indonesia, ordered a total of 230 airplanes with a list price of $21.7 billion. That includes 201 of the redesigned Boeing 737 "MAX" and 29 extended range 737s.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/story/2011-11-17/Boeing-gets-biggest-order-ever-from-Lion-Air/51265828/1

Where are they getting their monies? Here is another order from Airbus Suntimes

Boeing rival Airbus gets biggest order ever from Indonesia

PARIS — Boeing Co. rival Airbus signed its biggest deal ever on Monday, an order from Indonesian’s Lion Air worth $24 billion that President Francois Hollande said should inspire the struggling French economy and all of Europe.

The CEOs of both companies signed the contract for 234 planes in a ceremony at the French presidential palace, a sign of its importance to the government. At a time when layoff announcements are streaming out of French companies and unemployment is over 10 percent, Airbus said the manufacturing of the planes would happen in France and would involve 5,000 employees there.

Lion Air is buying 169 A320s and 65 A321 jets. The first planes will be delivered in 2014 and most of them will be outfitted with a new, more fuel-efficient engine that Airbus has recently developed.

[MrWorldwide]

Indonesia is booming atm, and how many countries can boast a domestic market that size, in a country where mountainous terrain and island hops make air travel a necessity ? Indonesia has the biggest economy in SE Asia.

[Tomtomtom69]

OP - what was your reason for putting the bit about crystal meth allegations in this post about the crash?

Because it evoked two things in my mind......

1 . Just a few weeks ago I saw a movie called “ Flight “ starring Denzel Washington about a plane crash in USA. Denzel Washington played the captain who just hours before the crash consumed marijuana and subsequently alcohol. It poses a question about safety in this day and age when flight crew are under considerable pressure to perform as to whether checks and balances are adequate?

http://www.paramount.com/flight/#story

2. A couple of days ago I read about a Romanian pilot who drank three glasses of wine the night before a flight from London to Bucharest , who was given a suspended prison sentence in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307064/Romanian-pilot-Radu-Cristea-performed-Red-Arrows-twice-drink-fly-limit.html

I just think we have to be mindful of hopefully rare incidents where pilots are operating aircraft when they shouldn't be?

And by the way it’s not an allegation! They were actually found in possession of illegal substances? Don't you think that is outrageous?

Actually he consumed cocaine, but no matter which drugs they were, such behavior is highly illegal. Of course flight was just a movie and such behavior is very rare in the real world amongst pilots.

[NeverSure]

Without making a single accusation, I don't understand how any sober and alert pilot can run off the end of a sufficiently long runway. Maybe if it was icy and he didn't expect it, or was low on fuel and had to attempt landing on a sheet of ice, then maybe, but he still has his thrust reversers and he would know to land short and slow.

As long as an airplane is flying, and I mean has enough airspeed that the wings are supporting the weight, the pilot doesn't have to land. His wheels can be one inch off the runway but he's still flying. All he has to do is add full power and his air speed, and therefore his wings' lift immediately increases and he can climb out. He can go to full throttle, flip the switch to raise the landing gear to reduce drag, and as he gains speed bleed off some flaps and fly out.

There is no reason in the world to not abort the landing if it appears he's too long. He knows he's too long when he's too high and/or his air speed is too high as he crosses the well-marked threshold of the runway. The sooner the better, add full power and pull up. Go around, come in for another approach and get it right. It's the proscribed procedure. It's hammered home to all pilots, always.

What were they thinking? Or were they impaired? I don't know but it's not an excusable "accident."

[Dancealot]

Without making a single accusation, I don't understand how any sober and alert pilot can run off the end of a sufficiently long runway. Maybe if it was icy and he didn't expect it, or was low on fuel and had to attempt landing on a sheet of ice, then maybe, but he still has his thrust reversers and he would know to land short and slow.

As long as an airplane is flying, and I mean has enough airspeed that the wings are supporting the weight, the pilot doesn't have to land. His wheels can be one inch off the runway but he's still flying. All he has to do is add full power and his air speed, and therefore his wings' lift immediately increases and he can climb out. He can go to full throttle, flip the switch to raise the landing gear to reduce drag, and as he gains speed bleed off some flaps and fly out.

There is no reason in the world to not abort the landing if it appears he's too long. He knows he's too long when he's too high and/or his air speed is too high as he crosses the well-marked threshold of the runway. The sooner the better, add full power and pull up. Go around, come in for another approach and get it right. It's the proscribed procedure. It's hammered home to all pilots, always.

What were they thinking? Or were they impaired? I don't know but it's not an excusable "accident."

I feel a new episode of my favourite show "air crash investigation" coming up!

[Jangot]

The aircraft did not "go off the end of the runway". It hit the water before the runway.

Why the pilot did this is still unknown - or at least unpublished as yet.

[Tywais]

The aircraft did not "go off the end of the runway". It hit the water before the runway.

Why the pilot did this is still unknown - or at least unpublished as yet.

A spokesman for Lion Air, a low-cost carrier, said at a news conference that the plane crashed about 50 meters ahead of the runway. The weather was cloudy with rain at the time of the incident. "It apparently failed to reach the runway and fell into the sea,'' said the spokesman, Edward Sirait.

"The cabin crew had already announced that we would be landing shortly,

and I was so excited when I saw the ocean getting closer, but suddenly

... it fell," he said.

Heraldsun

"suddenly ... it fell" would suggest he stalled it on approach.

And from an eye witness saying two planes arrived, the first one came in normal and landed the 2nd one was coming in slow - again, possibly stalled it.

Telegraph

[NeverSure]

The aircraft did not "go off the end of the runway". It hit the water before the runway.

Why the pilot did this is still unknown - or at least unpublished as yet.

That may be, and if true my description is still accurate. If he was too low he should have seen that way out and pulled up.

However, here's a quote from the linked article above. It's a picture caption:

"Scary: The plane skidded off the runway and landed in shallow water. Passengers made their way back to shore in yellow dinghies."

And:

"The Transportation Ministry's director general of aviation, Harry Bakti Gumay, said the plane overshot the runway and fell into the sea from a height of about 50 meters (55 yards)."

And:

'We will know what happened later but it appears the aircraft overshot the runway. Fortunately it has come down in shallow water.'

The title of this thread is "Plane overshoots runway."

There is a video in the article titled "The stricken plane lies in the sea after overshooting runway."

"Overshooting" means it was landing too long over the runway and couldn't stop before going off the end. "Undershooting" means landing short of the runway."

However, one early report can be completely wrong. It may turn out to be a different story. Maybe it did undershoot and land only in water. The pilot was still flying one moment before the plane hit the water, and lacking complete engine failure on both engines or fuel starvation, he should have pulled up and gone around. It will climb out and fly on just one engine if it has fuel.

[NeverSure]

The aircraft did not "go off the end of the runway". It hit the water before the runway.

Why the pilot did this is still unknown - or at least unpublished as yet.

A spokesman for Lion Air, a low-cost carrier, said at a news conference that the plane crashed about 50 meters ahead of the runway. The weather was cloudy with rain at the time of the incident. "It apparently failed to reach the runway and fell into the sea,'' said the spokesman, Edward Sirait.

"The cabin crew had already announced that we would be landing shortly,

and I was so excited when I saw the ocean getting closer, but suddenly

... it fell," he said.

Heraldsun

"suddenly ... it fell" would suggest he stalled it on approach.

"suddenly ... it fell" would suggest he stalled it on approach."

Yes it would, and that's a different account entirely from "overshot." Either way, lacking complete engine failures or fuel starvation, it's still massive pilot error and makes me wonder about the cognitive abilities of both pilots, and why they didn't go around.

[Tywais]

The aircraft did not "go off the end of the runway". It hit the water before the runway.

Why the pilot did this is still unknown - or at least unpublished as yet.

A spokesman for Lion Air, a low-cost carrier, said at a news conference that the plane crashed about 50 meters ahead of the runway. The weather was cloudy with rain at the time of the incident. "It apparently failed to reach the runway and fell into the sea,'' said the spokesman, Edward Sirait.

"The cabin crew had already announced that we would be landing shortly,

and I was so excited when I saw the ocean getting closer, but suddenly

... it fell," he said.

Heraldsun

"suddenly ... it fell" would suggest he stalled it on approach.

"suddenly ... it fell" would suggest he stalled it on approach."

Yes it would, and that's a different account entirely from "overshot." Either way, lacking complete engine failures or fuel starvation, it's still massive pilot error and makes me wonder about the cognitive abilities of both pilots, and why they didn't go around.

I agree. I can't imagine what mitigating circumstances would get them into a position to stall the aircraft. There is both an audio warning and a 'stick shaker' when approaching a stall. But I'm speculating which is considered a no-no here. But being a licensed pilot I'm allowed an educated guess.

[NeverSure]

The aircraft did not "go off the end of the runway". It hit the water before the runway.

Why the pilot did this is still unknown - or at least unpublished as yet.

A spokesman for Lion Air, a low-cost carrier, said at a news conference that the plane crashed about 50 meters ahead of the runway. The weather was cloudy with rain at the time of the incident. "It apparently failed to reach the runway and fell into the sea,'' said the spokesman, Edward Sirait.

"The cabin crew had already announced that we would be landing shortly,

and I was so excited when I saw the ocean getting closer, but suddenly

... it fell," he said.

Heraldsun

"suddenly ... it fell" would suggest he stalled it on approach.

"suddenly ... it fell" would suggest he stalled it on approach."

Yes it would, and that's a different account entirely from "overshot." Either way, lacking complete engine failures or fuel starvation, it's still massive pilot error and makes me wonder about the cognitive abilities of both pilots, and why they didn't go around.

I agree. I can't imagine what mitigating circumstances would get them into a position to stall the aircraft. There is both an audio warning and a 'stick shaker' when approaching a stall. But I'm speculating which is considered a no-no here. But being a licensed pilot I'm allowed an educated guess.

Unless he ran out of fuel and was trying to stretch his glide to the runway. There's a moment when he'd be too close to that runway to try a water landing. There wouldn't be room.

Yes, all kinds of warnings starting with two pilots and airspeed indicators. Stick shaker, and the wings begin to buffet. There should be an audible warning and a bright red light on the instrument panel. TWO pilots, each supposed to be watching all of that, and either authorized to firewall the throttles.

It will be interesting. I just looked at an article that said they recovered the black box.

[MrWorldwide]

I guess this is the Indonesian version of the 'Miracle on the Hudson', except that the pilot isnt being hailed a hero .... win some, lose some, I guess,

[Asiantravel]

Bali crash pilots pass drug, alcohol tests

" analysts have speculated that it could have been caused by a weather phenomenon such as wind shear, a change in wind direction and speed between different altitudes."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-15/bali-crash-pilots-pass-drug-alcohol-tests/4630146

Edited April 15, 2013 by Asiantravel

[Asiantravel]

OP - what was your reason for putting the bit about crystal meth allegations in this post about the crash?

Because it evoked two things in my mind......

1 . Just a few weeks ago I saw a movie called “ Flight “ starring Denzel Washington about a plane crash in USA. Denzel Washington played the captain who just hours before the crash consumed marijuana and subsequently alcohol. It poses a question about safety in this day and age when flight crew are under considerable pressure to perform as to whether checks and balances are adequate?

http://www.paramount.com/flight/#story

2. A couple of days ago I read about a Romanian pilot who drank three glasses of wine the night before a flight from London to Bucharest , who was given a suspended prison sentence in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307064/Romanian-pilot-Radu-Cristea-performed-Red-Arrows-twice-drink-fly-limit.html

I just think we have to be mindful of hopefully rare incidents where pilots are operating aircraft when they shouldn't be?

And by the way it’s not an allegation! They were actually found in possession of illegal substances? Don't you think that is outrageous?

Actually he consumed cocaine, but no matter which drugs they were, such behavior is highly illegal. Of course flight was just a movie and such behavior is very rare in the real world amongst pilots.

Actually you were obviously not paying attention !. Had you fallen asleep so early in the movie? In the opening scene when he is in bed with a hooker just hours before he is to command the flight he is smoking a joint with her. The cocaine comes after that.

And how could you possibly know how rare or otherwise this is ?

Maybe cocaine consumption by pilots is more rare but how could you possibly know how many pilots consume marijuana?

Does anyone even check pilots as to whether they are flying under the influence of marijuana ?

Edited April 15, 2013 by Asiantravel

[Tywais]

Discussing a movie is getting off topic guys. Nothing to suggest that is a case here.

[RabC]

Just remember if flying any Indonesian airline but Garuda that they are ALL black listed by the EU, must be a good reason for that. Garuda has only recently been removed from that blacklist.

[Tywais]

And to put to rest the previous speculation:

Bali crash pilots pass drug, alcohol tests

The pilot and co-pilot of a Lion Air plane that crashed at Bali's airport have passed initial drug tests, as investigators probed the causes of Saturday's accident. The Indonesian passenger jet carrying 108 people missed the runway as it came in to land, slamming into the water at high speed and splitting in two. Dozens of people were injured but there were no fatalities. Investigators are planning to haul the half-submerged wreckage onto a beach to examine the jet's interior and recover the cockpit voice recorder.

It is not yet clear what caused the accident, although analysts have speculated that it could have been caused by a weather phenomenon such as wind shear, a change in wind direction and speed between different altitudes.

The pilot and co-pilot on the new Boeing 737-800 tested negative in urine tests for drugs and alcohol, said transport ministry spokesman Bambang Ervan.

abc.net.au

[Tywais]

INDONESIAN investigators have begun retrieving the wreck of a Lion Air plane that crashed at Bali's airport, as accounts emerged of a freak storm that could have caused the accident.

The Boeing 737-800 missed the runway as it came in to land on Saturday, slamming into the sea and splitting in two. Dozens of the 108 people on board were injured, but there were no fatalities. After the plane hit the water, terrified passengers swam to shore as police came to their aid in rubber dinghies. Government officials and the airline said at the time of the crash that the weather had been fine. Transport ministry official Herry Bakti said the plane had been travelling through dense cloud at the time of the incident and one passenger told how the aircraft became engulfed in torrential rain.

French businessman Jean Grandy, 49, one of four foreigners on the plane, said that the flight from the city of Bandung in West Java had appeared to be landing smoothly.

"The final approach was fine," he told AFP. "Then suddenly, a cloud enveloped us. Torrents of water were pouring on us, it was an enormous downpour. It only lasted two, three minutes.

Dailytelegraph

[NeverSure]

INDONESIAN investigators have begun retrieving the wreck of a Lion Air plane that crashed at Bali's airport, as accounts emerged of a freak storm that could have caused the accident.

The Boeing 737-800 missed the runway as it came in to land on Saturday, slamming into the sea and splitting in two. Dozens of the 108 people on board were injured, but there were no fatalities. After the plane hit the water, terrified passengers swam to shore as police came to their aid in rubber dinghies. Government officials and the airline said at the time of the crash that the weather had been fine. Transport ministry official Herry Bakti said the plane had been travelling through dense cloud at the time of the incident and one passenger told how the aircraft became engulfed in torrential rain.

French businessman Jean Grandy, 49, one of four foreigners on the plane, said that the flight from the city of Bandung in West Java had appeared to be landing smoothly.

"The final approach was fine," he told AFP. "Then suddenly, a cloud enveloped us. Torrents of water were pouring on us, it was an enormous downpour. It only lasted two, three minutes.

Dailytelegraph

I must admit I hadn't thought of wind shear. It is rare, but it happens. If the plane is too low on final, and naturally slowed for landing. there's little a pilot can do. There's reaction time, and it does take a few moments for the engines to spool back up to full power. Even then, it might not do any good.

I'm glad no one was killed.