What Exactly Is A Bitcoin? – Live Wire

[dave111223]

I think the issue that will become very contentious with regards to Bitcoin in Thailand will be gambling.

Bitcoins really are tailor made for online gambling; irreversible, instant, anonymous etc... I fully expect all websites that cater to the Thai gambler to be switched over to bitcoins within in the next couple of years.

But then the question will become are you breaking the law by handled bitcoins that have been involved in gambling, even if you yourself were never involved in the gambling.

For example I sell some bitcoins to Somchai, he used them to bet on a Premier league match at XYZwebsite.com (and loses). Did I break the law?

Let's go one step further and say that XYZwebsite.com sells the bitcoins to me for THB? Did I break the law? Even if I never knew what Somchai or XYZ were involved in.

It's going to bring up lots of issues in the not so distant future

Edited April 26, 2013 by dave111223

[zzSleepyJohn]

There is no "purchasing bitcoins in Thailand" to worry about. Bitcoins are purchased online (or between individuals) completely separately to any government body of any kind.

It's true all Bitcoins must originally have either been purchased or mined on-line, nevertheless I can see adds for buying and selling Bitcoins in Thailand for cash or by local Thai bank transfer, so I think it's possible there could be an exchange control implication with them, hence my question.

[zzSleepyJohn]

..........the question will become are you breaking the law by handled bitcoins that have been involved in gambling, even if you yourself were never involved in the gambling.

For example I sell some bitcoins to Somchai, he used them to bet on a Premier league match at XYZwebsite.com (and loses). Did I break the law?

Possibly, but isn't that question academic bearing in mind Bitcoin transfers are anonymous? Short of extorting it out of you by torture, how could anyone get to know you sold your Bitcoins to Somchai?

[OxfordWill]

Right, I see your point. But, I still don't see your point. Not to say anything of what one ought or ought not do, I do not see how they could enforce such a law should it exist.

I imagine for now they are a property like anything else- such as selling a book or teacup. I have no clue, though.

[JDGRUEN]

Okay OP or any other Bitcoin expert. I have a question:

Situation: I wish to transfer money (using bitcoin) from the USA to an offshore bank account. My objective is privacy - not evasion of taxes - just privacy and not traceable by ordinary means by regular folks.

Say I wish to move $10,000 from a name brand U.S. Bank to a reputable trustworthy bank in the Cayman Islands, Singapore or Hong Kong using bitcoin as the transfer medium. Avoiding exchange rate fees and potential loss of value in the exchange would be great but not paramount ... just privacy of the exchange is the major point.

Okay Bitcoin experts - how can this be done explained as straight forwardly as possible. Thank you.

[OxfordWill]

I'm not a BC expert.

Without the details you could go USbank > cash > trusted friends/family account? > Bitcoin exchange in Japan > credit to exchange account > buy coins > sell coins > withdraw to offshore.

You could add extra steps of course but that is the basics I guess. You were vague and ambiguous so I assumed some things.

Ready to be corrected?

Edited April 30, 2013 by OxfordWill

[dave111223]

Okay OP or any other Bitcoin expert. I have a question:

Situation: I wish to transfer money (using bitcoin) from the USA to an offshore bank account. My objective is privacy - not evasion of taxes - just privacy and not traceable by ordinary means by regular folks.

Say I wish to move $10,000 from a name brand U.S. Bank to a reputable trustworthy bank in the Cayman Islands, Singapore or Hong Kong using bitcoin as the transfer medium. Avoiding exchange rate fees and potential loss of value in the exchange would be great but not paramount ... just privacy of the exchange is the major point.

Okay Bitcoin experts - how can this be done explained as straight forwardly as possible. Thank you.

In theory you would:

1) Withdraw $10,000 cash

2) Meet someone on localbitcoins.com in the US and buy bitcoins from them

3) Contact someone in the Cayman Islands on localbitcoins and sell the bitcoins to them

4) Have them deposit the cash into your Caymans bank account

However at this time I was not able to find anyone locally in the Cayman Islands dealing in bitcoins: https://localbitcoins.com/country/KY

So this plan is currently not possible; until their are bitcoin traders in Caymans.

[JDGRUEN]

Okay OP or any other Bitcoin expert. I have a question:

Situation: I wish to transfer money (using bitcoin) from the USA to an offshore bank account. My objective is privacy - not evasion of taxes - just privacy and not traceable by ordinary means by regular folks.

Say I wish to move $10,000 from a name brand U.S. Bank to a reputable trustworthy bank in the Cayman Islands, Singapore or Hong Kong using bitcoin as the transfer medium. Avoiding exchange rate fees and potential loss of value in the exchange would be great but not paramount ... just privacy of the exchange is the major point.

Okay Bitcoin experts - how can this be done explained as straight forwardly as possible. Thank you.

In theory you would:

1) Withdraw $10,000 cash

2) Meet someone on localbitcoins.com in the US and buy bitcoins from them

3) Contact someone in the Cayman Islands on localbitcoins and sell the bitcoins to them

4) Have them deposit the cash into your Caymans bank account

However at this time I was not able to find anyone locally in the Cayman Islands dealing in bitcoins: https://localbitcoins.com/country/KY

So this plan is currently not possible; until their are bitcoin traders in Caymans.

This is good and thank you... Singapore or Hong Kong would be okay too. My main concern is getting USD from the bitcoin at the offshore exchange to put it into a bank ... And - it would seem if I traveled to the offshore bank site - I could be the person exchanging bitcoin/USD on both ends - correct? Assuming there was a bitcoin trader in Hong Kong or Singapore

[JDGRUEN]

I'm not a BC expert.

Without the details you could go USbank > cash > trusted friends/family account? > Bitcoin exchange in Japan > credit to exchange account > buy coins > sell coins > withdraw to offshore.

You could add extra steps of course but that is the basics I guess. You were vague and ambiguous so I assumed some things.

Ready to be corrected?

I only meant to be generic - not vague or ambiguous - sorry about that...

Okay - start again ... US Bank... wire money to a bitcoin trader (my account) ... Later - I go to an offshore site (Hong Kong or Singapore - assuming here is a bitcoin trader there) and use the account or new account to convert bitcoin to USD or local currency and put into a local bank account Would this work ?.

It would seem that when the money enters the bitcoin system - even by bank wire or ACH - then it cannot be traced as to where it went or who took it out or even if it was taken out - correct?

[trunknuk]

Here is what I am trying:

US Bank > free -> Dwolla > $0.25-> Mt. Gox ( exchange USD for BTC Fee: .6% ) > almost free-> bitcoin.in.th ( BTC for THB Fee: around 8%) > almost free-> Local Thai Bank

If it wasn't for the BTC to THB fee, this would be a great way to move USD into THB. Hopefuly it will improve.

[zzSleepyJohn]

Here is what I am trying:

US Bank > free -> Dwolla > $0.25-> Mt. Gox ( exchange USD for BTC Fee: .6% ) > almost free-> bitcoin.in.th ( BTC for THB Fee: around 8%) > almost free-> Local Thai Bank

If it wasn't for the BTC to THB fee, this would be a great way to move USD into THB. Hopefuly it will improve.

It looks to me as if MtGox have their own THB market http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/currency/THB.html, although I'm not clear exactly how that works, I'm wondering if using that could cut out the bitcoin.in.th step above? Can MtGox actually send and receive THB directly to and from a Thai bank? Anyone know?

[meom]

..........the question will become are you breaking the law by handled bitcoins that have been involved in gambling, even if you yourself were never involved in the gambling.

For example I sell some bitcoins to Somchai, he used them to bet on a Premier league match at XYZwebsite.com (and loses). Did I break the law?

Possibly, but isn't that question academic bearing in mind Bitcoin transfers are anonymous? Short of extorting it out of you by torture, how could anyone get to know you sold your Bitcoins to Somchai?

The question doesn't make sense really.

For example if you exchange dollars to baht and you use your baht to gamble nobody will argue that the money exchanger broke the law because you used the money for gambling.

Regarding bitcoins there might be some reporting required in future when large amounts get changed into common money.

[trunknuk]

Here is what I am trying:

US Bank > free -> Dwolla > $0.25-> Mt. Gox ( exchange USD for BTC Fee: .6% ) > almost free-> bitcoin.in.th ( BTC for THB Fee: around 8%) > almost free-> Local Thai Bank

If it wasn't for the BTC to THB fee, this would be a great way to move USD into THB. Hopefuly it will improve.

It looks to me as if MtGox have their own THB market http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/currency/THB.html, although I'm not clear exactly how that works, I'm wondering if using that could cut out the bitcoin.in.th step above? Can MtGox actually send and receive THB directly to and from a Thai bank? Anyone know?

Thanks for bringing this up. Just checked my account. You can have THB as your default currency. It seems you can then wire money to and from Mt. Gox to a Thai Bank, so seems no need for bitcoin.in.th at Bank Wire levels.

[dave111223]

Here is what I am trying:

US Bank > free -> Dwolla > $0.25-> Mt. Gox ( exchange USD for BTC Fee: .6% ) > almost free-> bitcoin.in.th ( BTC for THB Fee: around 8%) > almost free-> Local Thai Bank

If it wasn't for the BTC to THB fee, this would be a great way to move USD into THB. Hopefuly it will improve.

It looks to me as if MtGox have their own THB market http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/currency/THB.html, although I'm not clear exactly how that works, I'm wondering if using that could cut out the bitcoin.in.th step above? Can MtGox actually send and receive THB directly to and from a Thai bank? Anyone know?

Thanks for bringing this up. Just checked my account. You can have THB as your default currency. It seems you can then wire money to and from Mt. Gox to a Thai Bank, so seems no need for bitcoin.in.th at Bank Wire levels.

I could be wrong but I think if you use Mt Gox you'll want to send the wire transfer in USD.

*I think* If you send in THB and use a THB account you'll have to trade with other people who are using THB; which is basically no one.

Just have your Thai bank convert the THB to USD before transferring and set your Mt Gox account to USD, then you'll be able to trade with the highest number of people.

Remember Mt. Gox is an Exchange, where you are trading directly with other bitcoin owners, Mt. Gox owns no bitcoins (other than the fees); whereas all the local Thai dealers are "Over the counter"; meaning they hold/own the coins and sell to you, as such they charge a hefty premium to cover the risk associated with holding bitcoins.

Edited May 2, 2013 by dave111223

[zzSleepyJohn]

I could be wrong but I think if you use Mt Gox you'll want to send the wire transfer in USD.

*I think* If you send in THB and use a THB account you'll have to trade with other people who are using THB; which is basically no one.

Just have your Thai bank convert the THB to USD before transferring and set your Mt Gox account to USD, then you'll be able to trade with the highest number of people.

Hmmm... not sure! I'm still puzzling over this one. If you look at http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ you'll see there's a big list of different currency bitcoin bid and offer rates, including MtGox's own instantaneous THB rates. I could also be wrong, but this seems to imply that if you trade on the MtGox exchange, these are the rates which will apply if you trade with MtGox right now (less their 6% fee I believe). The way I see it, you'd be trading with MtGox as an agent, not directly with other THB users. MtGox make their money from the spread between their bid and offer rates and their 6% commission on every deal.

Remember Mt. Gox is an Exchange, where you are trading directly with other bitcoin owners, Mt. Gox owns no bitcoins (other than the fees); whereas all the local Thai dealers are "Over the counter"; meaning they hold/own the coins and sell to you, as such they charge a hefty premium to cover the risk associated with holding bitcoins.

I suspect MtGox are more than simply an introduction agency between buyer and seller. To be able to offer THB bid and offer rates, they must have their own Thai bank account just as Trunknuk is saying, and no doubt they have a good reserve of bitcoins too, so I see them operating as an agency that buffers the deals between buyers and sellers.

If you were to get your Thai bank to convert THB to US$ before wiring, that would surely be introducing extra Thai bank exchange rate and commission losses and maybe some exchange control implications too, wouldn't it?

Then, assuming assuming it was bitcoins you were ultimately trying to acquire, you'd still be paying MtGox to convert those US$ to bitcoin.

[dave111223]

Hmmm... not sure! I'm still puzzling over this one. If you look at http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/ you'll see there's a big list of different currency bitcoin bid and offer rates, including MtGox's own instantaneous THB rates. I could also be wrong, but this seems to imply that if you trade on the MtGox exchange, these are the rates which will apply if you trade with MtGox right now (less their 6% fee I believe). The way I see it, you'd be trading with MtGox as an agent, not directly with other THB users. MtGox make their money from the spread between their bid and offer rates and their 6% commission on every deal.

I suspect MtGox are more than simply an introduction agency between buyer and seller. To be able to offer THB bid and offer rates, they must have their own Thai bank account just as Trunknuk is saying, and no doubt they have a good reserve of bitcoins too, so I see them operating as an agency that buffers the deals between buyers and sellers.

If you were to get your Thai bank to convert THB to US$ before wiring, that would surely be introducing extra Thai bank exchange rate and commission losses and maybe some exchange control implications too, wouldn't it?

Then, assuming assuming it was bitcoins you were ultimately trying to acquire, you'd still be paying MtGox to convert those US$ to bitcoin.

I think you are making a lot of incorrect assumptions;

1) As you can see the MtGox THB volume is tiny: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxTHB

Most days there is no volume at all (meaning no THB to Bitcoin trades happened on those days)

2) Mt. Gox is completely operated within Japan; they do not hold Thai bank accounts. After doing a bit more digging I'm not sure that it's even possible to deposit THB to Mt. Gox. I changed my default currency from USD to THB in Mtgox, then went to the Add Funds -> Bank Transfer and this notice came up:

You can do bank transfers to our bank in Japan in the following currencies:

USD, GBP, EUR, CAD, CHF, SEK, DKK, NOK, AUD , NZD, HKD, SGD. Any fee

charged by your bank or an intermediate bank will be deducted. Our bank

charges a 1,000 Yen receiving fee.

Note that it does not list THB, and shows only their Japanese bank account details to make the transfer.

If anyone has already transferred THB directly to mtgox without converting it I'd be interested to know.

I see only this option when for sending money to mtgox bank:

Wire information:

Beneficiary Name (Recipient): MtGox Co Ltd, Shibuya, Tokyo, Japan (IMPORTANT: if the beneficiary account name is not entered, our bank cannot assign the funds to our account)

Branch Number-Account Number: 210-1457705 (can be entered without the hyphen)

SWIFT: MHBKJPJT

Name Of Bank: Mizuho Bank Ltd.

Branch Name (if required): Shibuya

Bank address: 1-5, Uchisaiwaicho 1-Chome, Chiyoda-ku 100-0011 Tokyo, Japan

Recipient Address: Round Cross Shibuya 5F, 11-6 Shibuya 2-Chome, Shibuya-ku

Tokyo, Japan 150-0002

I do not see anywhere on their site with references to Thai bank accounts?

[zzSleepyJohn]

I think you are making a lot of incorrect assumptions;

Oh dear, yes, from what you're saying in your latest, it looks like you are right!

YOU WRITE:

2) Mt. Gox is completely operated within Japan; they do not hold Thai bank accounts. After doing a bit more digging I'm not sure that it's even possible to deposit THB to Mt. Gox.

I changed my default currency from USD to THB in Mtgox, then went to the Add Funds -> Bank Transfer and this notice came up:

You can do bank transfers to our bank in Japan in the following currencies:

USD, GBP, EUR, CAD, CHF, SEK, DKK, NOK, AUD , NZD, HKD, SGD. Any fee

charged by your bank or an intermediate bank will be deducted. Our bank

charges a 1,000 Yen receiving fee.

END YOU WRITE

Oh, forget it! it's useless if that's the only way to pay them. I thought one of the main advantages of bitcoins was to avoid bank international SWIFT and exchange charges like that.

Note that it does not list THB, and shows only their Japanese bank account details to make the transfer.

If anyone has already transferred THB directly to mtgox without converting it I'd be interested to know.

Yes, I'd like to know too. I don't really "get" how they can claim to offer MtGoxTHB as one of their currencies if they don't have a Thai bank interface and can't accept funds in THB.

I do not see anywhere on their site with references to Thai bank accounts?

I was relying purely on what trunknuk had said previously. Must be some misunderstanding somewhere. I admit I haven't registered and checked on the MtGox site myself yet, and from what you're saying I'm not sure that I even want to now.

Daive, are you in LOS yourself like I am just now? There's just one possible explanation I can think of that might conceivably explain all this; maybe because you are in LOS with a LOS IP address, you are being fed an "asianised" version of MTGox's website that makes a blinkered wrong assumption that since Japan is nearer to you than USA, then by their parochially blinkered thinking it *must* be more convenient for you to trade with their Japan branch rather than their USA branch, so they don't feed you with the same info as visitors with N.American IP addresses see. I know it's a long shot, but just possibly their N.American base has access to a Thai bank account where their Japan base hasn't. I know my LOS IP address has a bad effect on quite a few English websites when they in parochial and blinkered fashion automatically feed me prices in THB when it should be obvious I need them in GBP. Renting a car from a UK base is a typical stupid example of rental firms' sites quoting me in THB.

I'm just finding it incomprehensible that MtGox are showing THB as one of their currencies without having any facilities to handle that currency. If they can get away with this, why don't they list "Martian Rocks" as another of their currencies and handle them the same way?? [grin]

[dave111223]

Daive, are you in LOS yourself like I am just now? There's just one possible explanation I can think of that might conceivably explain all this; maybe because you are in LOS with a LOS IP address, you are being fed an "asianised" version of MTGox's website that makes a blinkered wrong assumption that since Japan is nearer to you than USA, then by their parochially blinkered thinking it *must* be more convenient for you to trade with their Japan branch rather than their USA branch, so they don't feed you with the same info as visitors with N.American IP addresses see. I know it's a long shot, but just possibly their N.American base has access to a Thai bank account where their Japan base hasn't. I know my LOS IP address has a bad effect on quite a few English websites when they in parochial and blinkered fashion automatically feed me prices in THB when it should be obvious I need them in GBP. Renting a car from a UK base is a typical stupid example of rental firms' sites quoting me in THB.

I'm just finding it incomprehensible that MtGox are showing THB as one of their currencies without having any facilities to handle that currency. If they can get away with this, why don't they list "Martian Rocks" as another of their currencies and handle them the same way?? [grin]

Mt gox doesn't have a "USA Branch" they are located in Japan.

[dave111223]

Hopefully we'll see these in Thailand some time soon:

http://youtu.be/ZqEdBCKFPAo

[pdebuck456]

It seems it's quite easy to move between bitcoin and for example liberty reserve, which also is rather anonymous and easily bought and sold in Thailand. Buying liberty is anonymous (cash deposit machine to Thai bank account), receiving is not anonymous as they transfer into your bank account.

Not for big amounts tough...

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