My Dilemma

[BangkokTony]

Before I go on, may I say that I haven't been able to contribute to this board due to working long hours for the past few years, although I have been reading other people's posts. (I have owned a convenience store in England). However, it has now been sold and I will be moving to Bangkok with my Thai wife and baby, aged 2.

Now, my problem: I have a daughter by a previous marriage aged 22, who has a good job with a major insurance company.

My wife, baby and myself are moving to Bangkok in April. I believe it is best if I make a will before I leave for good. (I'm 54 and my wife is 29).

How should I provide for my daughter aged 22 - I have have a house in England which I will rent out whilst I am in Thailand and I don't have an excessive amount of savings.

My wife would like to keep possession of the house when I should pass on. She intends to come back to England when my youngest daughter is 18 and goes to university.

My wife has a master's degree and is trying to get a job in Bangkok right now, but if not we will open a shop.

What should I do?

BangkokTony

[Morden]

Hi Tony,

Firstly, decide what you would want for each member of your family should they all survive you. It's up to you what provision you want to make for your older daughter, for example.

Secondly, get the advice of an English lawyer. It's by no means clear what a wife's entitlement would be in the event of your death or a divorce. All that you can do is decide what you think is fair and hope that a Court, if it goes that far, would agree with you. Assume that whatever is in Thailand will go to your wife. If you have made proper provision there then, perhaps, it would be held that your assets in England could be left to your daughter.

If I may suggest something else, you might consider using equity from your house in England to build a home in Thailand in a place of your wife's choosing. Then she has a home there and it's more likely that your home in England could go to your daughter, if that is your wish. There's no certainty that your wife would return to England.

Good luck in Thailand!

[warriors]

Give some of the English house rental money to your 22 year old daughter.

Hope that you new wife can get a job in Thailand and you go to work teaching there too. In your case maybe that is the only job you may get there.

Oh and pray you kept your life insurance policy still in force when you took it out when you were much younger. Or did you cancell it like most people do, thinking I do not need this any more.

Re your will, what do you have to leave any one?

You said your new wife wants your house to live in. That is in 16 years time.(long way off)

So maybe change the will to 67% to your new wife and 33% to your 22 year old daughter. Then change the % to more to your wifes name as the years go by. Or if things look to be going pear shape with the marrage, then change the % more in the favour to your older daughter.

Good look

[rishi]

Since your 22 year daughter is well on her way, your major concern should be to secure your 2 year old kid to the max

[ThaiPauly]

I can see your dilema.

Has the property in the UK got a mortgage attached to it or is it paid for?

It sounds from your post that it is paid for. So you get to keep the rental income, your daughter does not need any of it as she has a good job and can keep herself.

You have to ensure tha on passing your Thai Wife does not automatically receive the property or everything you have worked for while pass directly to the Thai side leaving your eldest daughter with no inheritance. Then if your Wife re-married (and there is quite an age gap-so this is not out of the question) all your worth would go to the Thai side and the new Man in her life would be reaping the benefits

I would advise that you made a will that specifically says that when you die the property goes to your Daughter and Son, but your Wife may live in it "Rent Free until she either dies or re-marries. The only problem here is that there is not much of an age gap between your Wiife and Daughter! Your Wife may well outlive your Daughter! So she still ends up with nothing, but it would be something she could pass on to your Grandchildren when they come along.

Oh dear this certainly is a dilema ... of course you could sit on everything for now and revisit the situation in 5 years and see how things are panning out. You can make a will to protect your Daughter now and change it as neccassary to reflect changing circumstances as time goes by.

Personally I have a property in the UK which I too rent, We have properties in LOS which are in my Wife's name... my situation is uncomplecated as we have no children together. She gets everything here and my kids inherrit the English property.. no complications

Good Luck... apart from this it seems you are set for a nice life here

TP

[skylar]

The OP is clearly trying to be fair towards the three main people in his life. His daughter will be slighted, irrespective of her occupation, if she is left out of his will. Similarly, if inadequate provisions are made for his wife and youngest child, then they too will be disadvantaged.

Does the house have exceptional value that the OP feels it is better to rent it out rather than sell it and place the money in a high-interest account (or similar) that can be divided between the three parties as the OP sees fit? Or does the OP foresee that moving to Thailand may not work out and wants to keep the house and rent it out for that reason?

TP and Morden offer interesting and viable solutions. Basically, it is unknown as to whether any or all of the new family will move back to the UK in the next two decades. Bear in mind that the house may be nowhere near the university that his younger child chooses to go to, and his wife will have to do the un-Thai thing and see her child once in a blue moon during its uni years and possibly its working years too if she wants to live in that particular house.

[Misplaced]

Just because your English dauter is successful does not mean she should be left out. She's just as important as your youngest.

IMO, the wealth should be distributed 50/50 to each of your daughters. Since your wife can take care of herself, she should keep the shop both of you are opening (if opened).

Edited March 20, 2006 by Misplaced

[Neeranam]

On his last visit to Thailand my old man said he would marry a Thai 20 something y/o if my mother died or left him.

I know what I'd say if he did and had a kid with her and struck me off his will, of course it would be up to him - it's his money/house, but...........come on.

Without wanting to imply the worst, there is some information missing here to give advice.

How does your daughter get on with your wife?

How did you meet your wife?

Is the fact that you are a baht millionaire have any relevance to why you are married?

Was the child planned?

I have known families totally shattered by Thai gold-digger women, and many of them were very well educated.

Sorry if these questions are totally irrelevant and all the best of luck in Bangkok.

I'd wait a few years and see how your marriage goes before making any big decisions.

"""""""""""""

So maybe change the will to 67% to your new wife and 33% to your 22 year old daughter. Then change the % to more to your wifes name as the years go by. Or if things look to be going pear shape with the marrage, then change the % more in the favour to your older daughter.

""""""""""""

That's good advice but maybe the starting %ages are wrong.

[DavieA]

On his last visit to Thailand my old man said he would marry a Thai 20 something y/o if my mother died or left him.

I know what I'd say if he did and had a kid with her and struck me off his will, of course it would be up to him - it's his money/house, but...........come on.

Without wanting to imply the worst, there is some information missing here to give advice.

How does your daughter get on with your wife?

How did you meet your wife?

Is the fact that you are a baht millionaire have any relevance to why you are married?

Was the child planned?

I have known families totally shattered by Thai gold-digger women, and many of them were very well educated.

Sorry if these questions are totally irrelevant and all the best of luck in Bangkok.

I'd wait a few years and see how your marriage goes before making any big decisions.

"""""""""""""

So maybe change the will to 67% to your new wife and 33% to your 22 year old daughter. Then change the % to more to your wifes name as the years go by. Or if things look to be going pear shape with the marrage, then change the % more in the favour to your older daughter.

""""""""""""

That's good advice but maybe the starting %ages are wrong.

I'm with you on this one Neers. Forgive me if I'm wrong , but I smeel a rat! I suggest the OP be very very carefull about making any concrete descisions for now.

[daleyboy]

Maybe i could pass on what my mum has done for when she passes.

We sat down at length and disscussed this very topic about who gets what. Not something i wanted to do but my mum insisted. Now she made the will out so that i get her house, but i am not allowed to sell it without the permission of the 2 trustees, who happen to be my sister and my father. She has done this as she doesnt want me just to sell up move to Thailand and blow all the money. She would rather i rented it out and lived on the income in Thailand, which isa fair enough i guess.

What i have done to make sure my wife is taken care of if the unfortunate happens, is to take out life insurance. And for a small premium she will get £150000 should i have an accident.

My mum also put in her will that if something happens to me then the house will go to any children that i have, so that will be my son thats due in 6weeks.

I hope this helps the op, there are plenty of things you can do legally to make sure everyone is looked after, just dont leave it too late.

[GuestHouse]

My advice is as follows:

You have capital from the sale of your convenience store. You also have a house (I presume fully paid for). I don’t know but I presume you may also have other wealth, for example a pension.

The fact is that your wealth is not entirely your own. It is both yours and your wife’s.

I see the first issue is your transition to Thailand. You will presumably buy a property/business in Thailand. I also presume that you understand that the purchase can be via a company (which you control) or through a lease (purchased in your wife’s name but leased for 30 years to you –giving you tenure).

My first piece of advice is. Insist that any property you purchase in Thailand is bought in your wife’s name but leased to you for 30 years – place a reasonable monthly lease fee of say Bht5000~6000.

This achieves many positive things for both of you.

It protects your wife on two fronts:

If you divorce she has the right to receive a rent from you that will keep her.

If you die, she has the property, either to use or to sell.

It protects you on three fronts:

If you divorce you maintain tenure (should you wish to maintain Tenure)

If you divorce you can present the Property Title in a court back home as evidence that your wife has a property in Thailand – therefore protecting your rights to keep your house back home.

If your wife dies you can keep tenure (should you so wish).

It does something else too – If, for any reason whatsoever, your wife objects to you having a lease on the property you buy in her name – Alarm bells should be ringing loudly in your ears.

Having bought your wife a property in the Thailand, you need to consider what to do with your property in the UK.

My first advice would be rent for at least two years – You have not yet settled in Thailand and you do not yet know if you will settle permanently – Things change, so don’t burn your bridges too early.

So rent, and perhaps make your daughter in the UK the manager of the rental, with her receiving a fee for her help.

At sometime in the future consider the rental value versus the capital and whether you want to sell and invest elsewhere.

If you sell look to secure an income for your youngest daughter, an income for your wife and perhaps start capital for your daughter to get on the property ladder – or even to establish her own pension. (Starting a young person with a pension is a great way of helping them out)

Note: If you have bought property in Thailand, this is owned outright by your wife.

You need to protect you youngest daughter with her own income - secured in the UK (not under control of your wife – incase she remarries).

I would also tie your youngest daughter’s income to measurable and controllable issues – i.e. She should receive school fees paid to the school. Extra Income tied to attendance at the school. Extra Income for staying on past the minimum statutory school age (Beyond M3) and money held back for university.

All this can be provided for in a will controlled by an executor in the UK.

To summarize:

You buy your wife property in Thailand

You can use a lease to protect you and your wife in Thailand

You use the wealth in your house to provide an income in the event of your death for:

Your wife

A protected income for your youngest daughter

Start Capital for your eldest daughter

Remember too that your wife has income from your pension when that comes into payment.

[BangkokTony]

Thanks for your replies..there were some ideas I have not thought of.

We have a house to got to in Thailand.(my wifes mother paid for a new house for us in Bangkok) so no worry with rent or buying. Only got to furnish it.

But I would like to make a will before I go to Thailand

Bangkoktony

[ourmanflint]

Tony... the problem only arises if you hold onto your house, so the solution is simple.... sell it now!! Give some to your eldest... enough for a deposit on her own place, invest the rest and go and have a wonderful life in Thailand. Don't be tempted to hold on to the property in the UK.

At least that's what I would do!!

[daleyboy]

Tony... the problem only arises if you hold onto your house, so the solution is simple.... sell it now!! Give some to your eldest... enough for a deposit on her own place, invest the rest and go and have a wonderful life in Thailand. Don't be tempted to hold on to the property in the UK.

At least that's what I would do!!

There is no way you want to cut yor ties staright away. Why would you want to sell now? Thats just crazy, the market hasnt stagnated in the uk, sure the price rises have slowed, but they havent stopped, selling now would just be sheer stupidity. There is nothing to stop you spending an hour at a solicitors and getting your will sorted out to secure the furture of everyone involved.

I am sorry flint but this is just silly advice that is best ignored. I dont mean to offend but really, a house is an asset, and one which is still rising in value. Hang onto it for as long as possible and rent it out, if you have no mortgage on it, then it is pure profit in your pocket, well apart from the bit you have to give to the tax man Then when you feel the market has ceased rising, and you are happy in Thailand, then sell, and not one second before

[jdinasia]

Life insurance certainly ....

I'd do a will that at the end of my days on this earth divided my assetts (all of them) ... amongst my kids ... leaving the insurance policy to the wife.

[ourmanflint]

Different views... OK! But there are numerous benefits to liquidating your assets, you just need the right time to do it.

[Jim 50]

You definitely need a will before you leave or everything will go to your wife.

IMO upon death, have the house sold. Leave the majority of the proceeds to the two children with some percentage for the wife, maybe 40-40-20, and the wife gets the BKK house.

[nagasaki]

Now, my problem: I have a daughter by a previous marriage aged 22, who has a good job with a major insurance company.

What should I do?

BangkokTony

I dont want to pry in any way, but my response to this would be to say, why do you need to provide for your daughter who you say is 22 and has a good job.

reason I say this is I was not not provided for financially in any way by my parents after the age of 18 (not a critiscism of my parents in any way more an observation, as they did there best for me when I was young and left me with a pretty balanced set of values), and I am quite happy with any personal finacial achievements I have made along the way, also I have a very good friend who had parents that tried to 'provide' for his sisters at an early age, theyc grew up to be a right pair of lazy hounds who grew up thinking the world owed them a living and have never done a stroke of work in there lives.

Obviously you know your daughter very well and I understand your wanting to provide, If I was in your situation I would ask myselff, does my daughter want to be provided for, infact she may think that your providng for her would interfere financially with your new life, when she is at an age where she may well be seeking financialy independance anyway

[Gary A]

When I left the US to retire here I signed my house over to my two kids. I told them I didn't care what they did with it. I also told them that if they inherit anything from me it would be an accident because my plan was to spend the rest of it on ME! My Thai wife is about the same age as my son (39) and a bit older than my daughter. What I have here in Thailand goes to my Thai wife and what is left in my 401K retirement plan in the US goes to my kids.

If I were in the OP's situation I would leave the UK house to my daughters to be sold and proceeds split equally. Of course the Thai wife would be the trustee of our daughter. Anything accumulated in Thailand would go to my Thai wife. I would guess that the UK house will be worth far more than any property in Thailand.

Added;

I own a condo here and my Thai wife can live off the rent when I am gone. We live upcountry in her house. I also bought her 10 rai of farmland for extra income. She is provided for and the way it looks right now there will be quite a bit of money left in my retirement plan. If our marriage should go pear shaped, the condo is in my name as well as my vehicle. I could leave without looking back. I doubt and hope that will never be necessary but I remain a cynic.

Edited March 21, 2006 by Gary A

[Jim 50]

When I left the US to retire here I signed my house over to my two kids. I told them I didn't care what they did with it. I also told them that if they inherit anything from me it would be an accident because my plan was to spend the rest of it on ME! My Thai wife is about the same age as my son (39) and a bit older than my daughter. What I have here in Thailand goes to my Thai wife and what is left in my 401K retirement plan in the US goes to my kids.

If I were in the OP's situation I would leave the UK house to my daughters to be sold and proceeds split equally. Of course the Thai wife would be the trustee of our daughter. Anything accumulated in Thailand would go to my Thai wife. I would guess that the UK house will be worth far more than any property in Thailand.

Added;

I own a condo here and my Thai wife can live off the rent when I am gone. We live upcountry in her house. I also bought her 10 rai of farmland for extra income. She is provided for and the way it looks right now there will be quite a bit of money left in my retirement plan. If our marriage should go pear shaped, the condo is in my name as well as my vehicle. I could leave without looking back. I doubt and hope that will never be necessary but I remain a cynic.

All sounds reasonable except for the above line which sounds risky.

[Gary A]

The Thai wife as trustee would have to live with the conditions spelled out in the will. She could only take a specified sum per year and the balance would go to the daughter when she is of age. I would hope the daughter would further her education and that the specified sum would provide for that.

[Patex]

Sell the house, enjoy/invest the money! You have earned it! Look at your first daugther, you brought her up in a good way you owe her nothing ( the opposite is the truth).

When I was 22, I would be very happy about a few 10 000 Pounds for build up my own future.

As a houseowner you are not so naive like daleyboy and you know what problems can arise with a property like this and what a pain in the ... it must be to manage it from Thailand.

Patex

[GuestHouse]

There is a second consideration.

You are moving now from earning a living, to retirement and living off investments and perhaps pensions. This requires an absolute understanding that the capital and pensions you have, are irreplaceable – You need, above all things, to maintain control over and security of the capital that is providing your retirement income.

If you have a pension held under trustees in the UK then that is a very secure investment (Despite all the scaremongering on pensions, once ‘In Payment’ Pensions are very secure).

You need to think extremely carefully about what you want to do with the rest of your capital. I would warn against taking it all to Thailand – Once your money is in Thailand it is at very much greater risk than in it would be in the UK.

Agree with your wife what you need to take to Thailand (Money to buy a property/car/household goods etc) and then leave the rest invested in the UK.

Talk to a financial advisor there are a number of good secure savings vehicles that will give you an income. If you are quick you can invest GBP 14,000 in tax free ISA’s this month and another GBP14,000 next month. But you’ll need to get on to that financial advisor now.

Make your initial capital purchases with cash but make subsequent purchase out of income you derive from your capital (Decide a monthly budget for a expenditure in Thailand with a little extra to accrue savings for the extras you might need – holidays etc)

Remember every time you draw capital you are reducing future income.

Remember too that prices in Thailand are rising – Faster than in the UK. So you need to talk to a financial advisor about securing a retirement income that can cope with the price increases and that will last for as long as you will – perhaps longer if you are providing a pension for your wife after your death.

Do Not Forget the wisest of words – Never Take Money to Thailand that You Cannot Afford to Loose.

You cannot afford to loose the capital that is providing your retirement income.

So DO NOT TAKE YOUR CAPITAL TO THAILAND.

Leave it in the UK and live in Thailand off the Income (not the capital)

Edited March 21, 2006 by GuestHouse

[The Dude]

The Dude says leave house to 22 y/o daughter and remaining assets to Thai side of family

[daleyboy]

Sell the house, enjoy/invest the money! You have earned it! Look at your first daugther, you brought her up in a good way you owe her nothing ( the opposite is the truth).

When I was 22, I would be very happy about a few 10 000 Pounds for build up my own future.

As a houseowner you are not so naive like daleyboy and you know what problems can arise with a property like this and what a pain in the ... it must be to manage it from Thailand.

Patex

Why do you think not selling is being naive? Do you not think it is a bit naive to think you can just sell up spend all your money and not care about your children?

Please tell me what problems can arise, and why it would be a pain to keep the house? Have you never heard of managemnt companies? Let me explain for you. You pay them a percentage of the rent and they look after the place for you and they guarantee the rent even if there is no one in there.

You tell the op to invest his money!!!! do you not think gettting x amount every month for your investment is good enough, knowing that in 5 or 10 years time you will still have something physical you can then sell?

Yet another moronic post from patex

Edited March 21, 2006 by daleyboy

[Patex]

daleyboy,

These companies are expensive and sometimes you have to repair something. New windows, a new roof and so on can easily cost the yearly rent you can get for your object. There are better ways to invest your money.

Where did I wrote the op should not take care for his children ?? Read again, moron

[GuestHouse]

Perhaps Patex is missing a point.

While a house is still owned in the UK it is possible to return to the UK if things don't work out in Thailand.

This is known as 'Not Burning Your Bridges'.

If after a few years you find yourself settled and content with your life in Thailand you can sell and re-invest.

[daleyboy]

Perhaps Patex is missing a point.

While a house is still owned in the UK it is possible to return to the UK if things don't work out in Thailand.

This is known as 'Not Burning Your Bridges'.

If after a few years you find yourself settled and content with your life in Thailand you can sell and re-invest.

Nothing else to add to this