Is New Owner Responsible For Previous Condo Owner's Electricity Bill?

[bkksiam]

If I buy a Bangkok condo and the previous owner has not paid the electricity bill for a few months, can I as the new owner be required to pay this bill in order for electricity service to continue in the condo?

I also have the same question regarding the water bill and the condo fees.

[Loptr]

The short answer, yes.

[bkksiam]

The short answer, yes.

Given that I could be responsible for these bills, is due diligence by a lawyer the way to avoid the problem?

If yes..can I assume that my lawyer will check on these as part of due diligence?

If yes, are these items typically included in the due diligence report?

[PattayaPhom]

Debt free letter wont be issued unless maitenancr fees are paid. Rlectric and water are disonected after 7 days if bill not paid.

[bkksiam]

Debt free letter wont be issued unless maitenancr fees are paid. Rlectric and water are disonected after 7 days if bill not paid.

And so what are the implications of this for me as someone wanting to buy the condo? E.g. if They won't pay their fees then will I have to pay them in order to buy? Would I have to pay the previous owner's bill to have the electricity and water turned on?

[BlackPuddingBertha]

The short answer, yes.

The longer (or shorter) answer is "no" for the reason that PattayaPhom gave.

Edited May 11, 2013 by BlackPuddingBertha

[Loptr]

Debt free letter wont be issued unless maitenancr fees are paid. Rlectric and water are disonected after 7 days if bill not paid.

And so what are the implications of this for me as someone wanting to buy the condo? E.g. if They won't pay their fees then will I have to pay them in order to buy? Would I have to pay the previous owner's bill to have the electricity and water turned on?

Again, short answer is yes. Assume nothing. Instruct your attorney to investigate back utilities, taxes, maintenance fees, etc if he is not already doing so.

[Loptr]

The short answer, yes.

The longer (or shorter) answer is "no" for the reason that PattayaPhom gave.

I have seen the contrary, so as with everything in Thailand, your mileage will vary.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

And so what are the implications of this for me as someone wanting to buy the condo? E.g. if They won't pay their fees then will I have to pay them in order to buy? Would I have to pay the previous owner's bill to have the electricity and water turned on?

Are you seriously suggesting that you want to buy a condo and the current owner wont pay an outstanding electricity bill to ensure the sale?

I find this hard to believe.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

The short answer, yes.

The longer (or shorter) answer is "no" for the reason that PattayaPhom gave.

I have seen the contrary, so as with everything in Thailand, your mileage will vary.

But who in his right mind would buy a condo without a debt-free letter and with outstanding debts when there will be 20 more identical condos nearby without debts? Unless perhaps the sale price is so low realistic as to make the debt meaningless, in which case why worry about it?

Of course the buyer could just be out of his mind, in which case if I were the vendor I would have paid the bill long ago to ensure the sale.

[bkksiam]

And so what are the implications of this for me as someone wanting to buy the condo? E.g. if They won't pay their fees then will I have to pay them in order to buy? Would I have to pay the previous owner's bill to have the electricity and water turned on?

Are you seriously suggesting that you want to buy a condo and the current owner wont pay an outstanding electricity bill to ensure the sale?

I find this hard to believe.

Let me clarify. I am interested in buying a condo. I have found a condo I'd like to buy. I am in the process of hiring a lawyer. I understand due diligence has to be conducted but I was wondering if due diligence needed to include checking on arrears related to electricity, water & condo fees etc. E.g., here in Canada, your water and electricity are in your own name. If I move into a unit (house or condo) and the previous owner has not paid the electrical or water-that has absolutely no impact on me as a new owner. because the previous account is not in my name. I am asking is this the case or not in Thailand? Re condo fees, the condo act where I live requires for sales and purchases of condo an estoppel certificate that indicates what fees if any are owned.

[bkksiam]

The short answer, yes.

The longer (or shorter) answer is "no" for the reason that PattayaPhom gave.

I have seen the contrary, so as with everything in Thailand, your mileage will vary.

But who in his right mind would buy a condo without a debt-free letter and with outstanding debts when there will be 20 more identical condos nearby without debts? Unless perhaps the sale price is so low realistic as to make the debt meaningless, in which case why worry about it?

Of course the buyer could just be out of his mind, in which case if I were the vendor I would have paid the bill long ago to ensure the sale.

Agreed- however, you are focusing on principle whereas am asking re process. My question remains: who is responsible for the electrical and water? Does the new owner have to pay those outstanding debts related to water and electricity? Does the lawyer's due diligence automatically include getting a certificate from the juristic person regarding outstanding maintenance fees? Or is it the seller's responsibility to get this certificate? Does one have to pay to get it? If there are outstanding fees, I am assuming they are paid before going to land office?

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I was under the impression that the condo management have to provide a letter to the land office, stating all outstanding fees have been paid by the current owner, before the land office will register the change of ownership.

Electricity and water, just ask to see the current months bills stamped "paid" (with the 7-11 receipt attached).

Edited May 11, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[bkksiam]

I was under the impression that the condo management have to provide a letter to the land office, stating all outstanding fees have been paid by the current owner, before the land office will register the change of ownership.

Electricity and water, just ask to see the current months bills stamped "paid" (with the 7-11 receipt attached).

That is useful thanks- but who is responsible for getting this letter from the management? Is it the buyer ? the seller? Do you have to pay for this letter? Is it hard to get this letter?

Re electricity, I read on Rene Philippe's site re steps to buying a condo "

" The seller must prepare the documents for the transfer of the

electricity and water meters to the buyer. Note that the buyer will have to

refund to the seller the deposit paid by the seller to the electricity

authority if this matter was not included in the sale and purchase price"

[BlackPuddingBertha]

Agreed- however, you are focusing on principle whereas am asking re process. My question remains: who is responsible for the electrical and water? Does the new owner have to pay those outstanding debts related to water and electricity? Does the lawyer's due diligence automatically include getting a certificate from the juristic person regarding outstanding maintenance fees? Or is it the seller's responsibility to get this certificate? Does one have to pay to get it? If there are outstanding fees, I am assuming they are paid before going to land office?

The building management office will produce the letter on request. No charge that I'm aware of. It has to be recent and in my experience the Land Office wont do the transfer without it. So presumably the current owner would have to sort out any debts before the letter is issued.

I dont think that many people would waste money on a lawyer when buying a condo in farang name here as there isn't really any checking to be done, apart from what the Land Office does. And even if there was some checking to be done the lawyer probably wouldn't do it anyway.

But maybe you like giving money to lawyers for nothing .....

[bkksiam]

Agreed- however, you are focusing on principle whereas am asking re process. My question remains: who is responsible for the electrical and water? Does the new owner have to pay those outstanding debts related to water and electricity? Does the lawyer's due diligence automatically include getting a certificate from the juristic person regarding outstanding maintenance fees? Or is it the seller's responsibility to get this certificate? Does one have to pay to get it? If there are outstanding fees, I am assuming they are paid before going to land office?

The building management office will produce the letter on request. No charge that I'm aware of. It has to be recent and in my experience the Land Office wont do the transfer without it. So presumably the current owner would have to sort out any debts before the letter is issued.

I dont think that many people would waste money on a lawyer when buying a condo in farang name here as there isn't really any checking to be done, apart from what the Land Office does. And even if there was some checking to be done the lawyer probably wouldn't do it anyway.

But maybe you like giving money to lawyers for nothing .....

re: "why would anyone waste money on a lawyer"? I think the answer is evident in the contradictory responses I received to my questions in this thread. Purchasing a condo in Thailand as a farang is more complicated than it may appear on the surface. So... to "waste" 1% of the total cost of the condo for a lawyer is a small price to pay. I think if one selects the lawyer carefully then that 1% will be well worth it!

[NCC1701A]

poke around here for some idea of the issues:

http://www.renephilippe.com/service-in-thailand-real-estate-services.html

and here:

http://www.doingbusinessthailand.com/thailand-property/buying-a-condominium-purchas-formalities-step-by-step.html

sorry if this covered in other threads...

Edited May 11, 2013 by NCC1701A

[bkksiam]

poke around here for some idea of the issues:

http://www.renephilippe.com/service-in-thailand-real-estate-services.html

and here:

http://www.doingbusinessthailand.com/thailand-property/buying-a-condominium-purchas-formalities-step-by-step.html

sorry if this covered in other threads...

Thank you yes- it's an excellent site -it is from there that I took the quote above:Re electricity, I read on Rene Philippe's site re steps to buying a condo "

" The seller must prepare the documents for the transfer of the

electricity and water meters to the buyer. Note that the buyer will have to

refund to the seller the deposit paid by the seller to the electricity

authority if this matter was not included in the sale and purchase price"

[saroq]

And so what are the implications of this for me as someone wanting to buy the condo? E.g. if They won't pay their fees then will I have to pay them in order to buy? Would I have to pay the previous owner's bill to have the electricity and water turned on?

Are you seriously suggesting that you want to buy a condo and the current owner wont pay an outstanding electricity bill to ensure the sale?

I find this hard to believe.

Let me clarify. I am interested in buying a condo. I have found a condo I'd like to buy. I am in the process of hiring a lawyer. I understand due diligence has to be conducted but I was wondering if due diligence needed to include checking on arrears related to electricity, water & condo fees etc. E.g., here in Canada, your water and electricity are in your own name. If I move into a unit (house or condo) and the previous owner has not paid the electrical or water-that has absolutely no impact on me as a new owner. because the previous account is not in my name. I am asking is this the case or not in Thailand? Re condo fees, the condo act where I live requires for sales and purchases of condo an estoppel certificate that indicates what fees if any are owned.

I think you've stated your question very clearly and as is typical on forums you're receiving conflicting answers to that question. The safe way to proceed is to assume that anything that can go wrong will and instruct your lawyer to include checking on arrears of all utilities etc. before you purchase the condo. I don't know the rule in Thailand but it is not only Thailand where things get missed and you as the new owner get stuck with the bill. I purchased an apartment in my own country only to find out that the body corporate fees had not been paid for a year and I as the new owner was responsible for them. A few months of utility bills in Thailand wouldn't concern me because how big could the bill be but an additional $3,000 annoyed me.

[Langsuan Man]

In some condos you pay your electric and water through the condo management. In that case the letter that you must have for the Land Office to transfer the condo in your name will cover both the utilities and the farang quota

In others, where you pay the electric and water the condo management will only give you a letter regarding the farang quota

You don't have to pay the bill for the water company and electric company to put the service in your name, but it is much quicker and easier if the previous owner accompanies you to those offices since that will also accomplish the transfer of the deposits if appropriate all at one time. In any case you must have something in writing from the previous owner authorizing you to take over these utilities. Other wise anyone could go and have utilities cut off just to be devilish

[BlackPuddingBertha]

re: "why would anyone waste money on a lawyer"? I think the answer is evident in the contradictory responses I received to my questions in this thread. Purchasing a condo in Thailand as a farang is more complicated than it may appear on the surface. So... to "waste" 1% of the total cost of the condo for a lawyer is a small price to pay. I think if one selects the lawyer carefully then that 1% will be well worth it!

Actually Thailand is probably one of the easiest places to buy an existing condo in the entire world. If the paperwork isnt right the Land Office wont do the transfer, and what can a lawyer do apart from check that same paperwork? He might tell you about any legal problems with the building or the management, if he feels like it and if he even knows, but that isnt part of what he will be charging you for so he probably wont bother anyway.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

I don't know the rule in Thailand but it is not only Thailand where things get missed and you as the new owner get stuck with the bill. I purchased an apartment in my own country only to find out that the body corporate fees had not been paid for a year and I as the new owner was responsible for them.

It would have been simpler buying in Thailand as that cant happen here.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

In some condos you pay your electric and water through the condo management. In that case the letter that you must have for the Land Office to transfer the condo in your name will cover both the utilities and the farang quota

In others, where you pay the electric and water the condo management will only give you a letter regarding the farang quota.

And the common fees etc., in both instances.

Edited May 12, 2013 by BlackPuddingBertha

[rayongchelsea]

It is simple to buy a condo here..use a lawyer if you want but 10000k tops, they only verify transfer.

Get the letter and require proof of last electricity reading and if payment has been made. Generally it will have disconnected if hasn't been paid..they do this as the norm.

My condo chases up rigorously if electric not paid.

Should ensure you are billed directly..

Water is paid through he condo..is the rate reasonable ?

What are the common properties/areas..?

On transfer because the name is in Thai on the electricity bill many foreign owners assume that the estate agent will transfer..and find way later that the name on the bill is still the last owner..it can be changed at a cost but no big deal.

You should be more worried about the financial statements, who is on the committee, rules and regulations, what role does the developer, or a person who owns large number of units play in he administration etc..

In my opinion your due diligence should be else where..it should be more focused on the management of the building..

Good luck.

[johnnyk]

If the bills aren't paid deduct the amounts owed from your offer, take it or leave it. Many more fish in the sea.

[WonnabeBiker]

This is really important: do your due dilligence, especially with regards to unpaid HOA fees.

At my condo, management is a joke. They post lists of owners who haven't paid in years.

Many are on the top floor... And the amounts are high enough to buy a small new car.

As the common bills have to be paid, the honest owners are carrying the deadbeats.

Go and find out the ratio of owners who pay vs the deadbeats who let others pay their bills.

At my condo, about 25% are not current...

[BlackPuddingBertha]

At my condo, management is a joke. They post lists of owners who haven't paid in years.

Many are on the top floor... And the amounts are high enough to buy a small new car.

Maybe you should get yourself onto the committee and try and get the management changed, or at least put a rocket up them?

In my building those who dont pay by the due date have their utilities turned off and start getting billed penalty interest. Hardly any owners allow it to go that far, unless they are dead.

[northernboy]

Sorry the Government electric bill is your problem, if billed by condo not your problem.

Why..

If from condo supplied the condo will have issued statement of percentage of farang ownership to land department and lack of money owed as same time.

If direct billed by Government electric direct as you must either pay it or start over to apply new connection and then it will be cut off and you wait for new connection it is not done right away as must then be processed.

Water will vary depend if is condo or city and then by city rules but if supplied by the condo not your problem if city it can be depending on city policy.

Do not just leave the electric in name of past owner as then you must hope the old owner does not decide to get their deposit back as then you will have no notice and no electric.

[thhMan]

Due diligence and lawyer.... I dont think that works in Thailand...

[NoshowJones]

And so what are the implications of this for me as someone wanting to buy the condo? E.g. if They won't pay their fees then will I have to pay them in order to buy? Would I have to pay the previous owner's bill to have the electricity and water turned on?

Are you seriously suggesting that you want to buy a condo and the current owner wont pay an outstanding electricity bill to ensure the sale?

I find this hard to believe.

TIT