Is General Smoking Allowed By Monks?

[watcharacters]

.

I'm just curious as a monk I saw seemed to be smoking in a surreptitious way a few days ago as i was exercising.

If allowed I say "light em up if ya got um.

[harrry]

sorry wrong forum.

Though I do consider cigarettes to be mind altering and unlike others think they are covered by the precepts.

Edited June 1, 2013 by harrry

[fabianfred]

There is a current trend throughout thailand to reduce smoking in public areas. Temples have often taken up this and along with encouraging people to give up booze. Some make it a no smoking zone so perhaps a monk might be surreptitious about a quick drag.

It is not considered to break the fifth precept as it is not intoxicating leading to loss of control or mindfulness. It is an addiction ,however, and any good Buddhist should be trying to reduce attachments, especially to sensual pleasures, and since smoking is wasteful and harmful....

Many old monks still chew betel as older people still do...again....a habit... but not a sin...since it harms only the user.

[Gerald14]

Yes it is have seen many monks smoke

[dighambara]

sorry wrong forum.

Though I do consider cigarettes to be mind altering and unlike others think they are covered by the precepts.

WRONG FORUM..?? THAIVISA is the Forum, but it may be the wrong subject area - ALTHOUGH, in my experience finding the correct subject area can be quite difficult.

HOWEVER, to answer the question.... Buddhist teaching specifically state that Monks should abstain from all worldy pursuits; i.e. no intoxication of any kind ;no booze, no beer, no women, no cigarettes, no Betel, no drugs, no money, no telephone, no TV. Even meat is forbidden, but allowed if offered.

T.I.T. Where we see someone in robes in a bank, or smoking, or chewing betel, or carrying money or talking on a phone, or even asking for donations - the obvious result is that those individuals are not true monks, but are scamming the system...

[xen]

They could be the novice monks or the guys who are doing their 3 months as a monk and the smoking habit is too difficult for them to quit. I also have seen many of them smoke, play games in internet games in internent cafes, take a cheeky look at attractive women etc.

[Ace of Pop]

sorry wrong forum.

Though I do consider cigarettes to be mind altering and unlike others think they are covered by the precepts.

WRONG FORUM..?? THAIVISA is the Forum, but it may be the wrong subject area - ALTHOUGH, in my experience finding the correct subject area can be quite difficult.

HOWEVER, to answer the question.... Buddhist teaching specifically state that Monks should abstain from all worldy pursuits; i.e. no intoxication of any kind ;no booze, no beer, no women, no cigarettes, no Betel, no drugs, no money, no telephone, no TV. Even meat is forbidden, but allowed if offered.

T.I.T. Where we see someone in robes in a bank, or smoking, or chewing betel, or carrying money or talking on a phone, or even asking for donations - the obvious result is that those individuals are not true monks, but are scamming the system...

Or perhaps they a Just Human beings.

[maanoi]

I saw one talkin away on his blue tooth headset. Is that allowed?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Payboy]

I saw one talkin away on his blue tooth headset. Is that allowed?

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Nah, he's going straight to hello.

[camerata]

Monks are supposed to keep 227 precepts, many of which are very petty, and also a large number of minor rules. Before he died, the Buddha told his followers they could change the lesser rules, but they never did. There is no rule against smoking and, as fabianfred said, it isn't regarded as leading to carelessness, so the monastic authorities don't prohibit it.

[sabaijai]

There has been a ban on smoking in wats throughout Thailand for nearly a decade. I have visited a few wats where signs citing the original decree are posted, and where the temple leadership is strict about not allowing anyone, whether monks or lay visitors, to smoke on temple premises. Many others are more lax.

The original decree was joined by a second one promulgated by the Public Health Ministry a few years later, as reported earlier in this forum.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/258250-death-of-monks-prompts-ban-on-smoking-in-temples/

[Tchooptip]

sorry wrong forum.

Though I do consider cigarettes to be mind altering and unlike others think they are covered by the precepts.

WRONG FORUM..?? THAIVISA is the Forum, but it may be the wrong subject area - ALTHOUGH, in my experience finding the correct subject area can be quite difficult.

HOWEVER, to answer the question.... Buddhist teaching specifically state that Monks should abstain from all worldy pursuits; i.e. no intoxication of any kind ;no booze, no beer, no women, no cigarettes, no Betel, no drugs, no money, no telephone, no TV. Even meat is forbidden, but allowed if offered.

T.I.T. Where we see someone in robes in a bank, or smoking, or chewing betel, or carrying money or talking on a phone, or even asking for donations - the obvious result is that those individuals are not true monks, but are scamming the system...

Or perhaps they a Just Human beings.

An answer that could hardly be contradicted

[Tchooptip]

sorry wrong forum.

Though I do consider cigarettes to be mind altering and unlike others think they are covered by the precepts.

WRONG FORUM..?? THAIVISA is the Forum, but it may be the wrong subject area - ALTHOUGH, in my experience finding the correct subject area can be quite difficult.

HOWEVER, to answer the question.... Buddhist teaching specifically state that Monks should abstain from all worldy pursuits; i.e. no intoxication of any kind ;no booze, no beer, no women, no cigarettes, no Betel, no drugs, no money, no telephone, no TV. Even meat is forbidden, but allowed if offered.

T.I.T. Where we see someone in robes in a bank, or smoking, or chewing betel, or carrying money or talking on a phone, or even asking for donations - the obvious result is that those individuals are not true monks, but are scamming the system...

They are not true monks not at all, they are "not perfects monks", "not very good monks" for sure...to day...later maybe... who knows?

[dutchguest]

Smokers (like myself again at the
moment) can make a meditation of smoking: just do everything very
slowly and with awareness, knowing what you are doing and why: take a
cigaret out of the packet, look at it from all sides, smell it, take
a lighter very consciously and slowly, light the cigaret, inhale the
smoke, watch the smoke going in, feel the smoke entering the lungs
doing its beneficial workings, watch the smoke going out etc.

It might be proven that you cannot
smoke consciously, that it can only be done mechanical, like any
attachment, addiction. As soon as awareness arises you begin to see
the stupidity of it all, harming your health and paying for it, and
you will stop.

Remember that awareness is not a
function of the mind, it goes beyond the mind. Rationally every
smoker knows the stupidity of it, but this does not change his
behaviour (it can be a beginning). Awareness is a deeper going
experience.

[Acutus]

There is a current trend throughout thailand to reduce smoking in public areas. Temples have often taken up this and along with encouraging people to give up booze. Some make it a no smoking zone so perhaps a monk might be surreptitious about a quick drag.

It is not considered to break the fifth precept as it is not intoxicating leading to loss of control or mindfulness. It is an addiction ,however, and any good Buddhist should be trying to reduce attachments, especially to sensual pleasures, and since smoking is wasteful and harmful....

Many old monks still chew betel as older people still do...again....a habit... but not a sin...since it harms only the user.

Fred... I just am passing by and saw your comment. Just want to let you know that smoking is breaking the precept#3.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Acutus

[GrahamR]

There is a current trend throughout thailand to reduce smoking in public areas. Temples have often taken up this and along with encouraging people to give up booze. Some make it a no smoking zone so perhaps a monk might be surreptitious about a quick drag.

It is not considered to break the fifth precept as it is not intoxicating leading to loss of control or mindfulness. It is an addiction ,however, and any good Buddhist should be trying to reduce attachments, especially to sensual pleasures, and since smoking is wasteful and harmful....

Many old monks still chew betel as older people still do...again....a habit... but not a sin...since it harms only the user.

Isn't self harm a sin?

Graham

[fabianfred]

There is a current trend throughout thailand to reduce smoking in public areas. Temples have often taken up this and along with encouraging people to give up booze. Some make it a no smoking zone so perhaps a monk might be surreptitious about a quick drag.

It is not considered to break the fifth precept as it is not intoxicating leading to loss of control or mindfulness. It is an addiction ,however, and any good Buddhist should be trying to reduce attachments, especially to sensual pleasures, and since smoking is wasteful and harmful....

Many old monks still chew betel as older people still do...again....a habit... but not a sin...since it harms only the user.

Isn't self harm a sin?

Graham

I don't think smokers intend to harm their own health. Most people think 'it will never happen to me...'

Intention is important as far as karma goes. An act without intention which causes suffering or harm or even death, might not incur the full karmic result as an act done intentionally, but there is still carelessness and lack of mindfulness involved.

[beautifulthailand99]

Ajahn Chah the notable forest monk from Isaan - ordered all his monks to stop smoking but he himself did not - the reason he gave was he was not attached to it. They were different times though when the health issues weren't as widely known.

“Ajahn Sumedho started out life at Ajahn Chah’s monastery as a very zealous, hyperkeen monk…he was convinced that Ajahn Chah was the
greatest dharma teacher and the most enlightened master.” But, over time he noticed flaws in Ajahn Chah, such as smoking, gaining weight, and
talking with people instead of meditating. He chided the dharma teacher in private and asked him to set a better example. He expected an intense
reaction but instead “Ajahn Chah looked at him gently and said, ‘Well, I’m very grateful to you Sumedho for bringing up these things up to me.
I’ll really consider what you’ve said and see what can be done. But also you should bear in mind that perhaps it’s a good thing that I’m not
perfect. Otherwise you might be looking for the Buddha somewhere outside your own mind.’ There was a long and poignant silence. Then the young
Sumedho crawled away simultaneously heartened and chastened.” (Amaro Bhikkhu)

Another view on smoking under Ajahn Chah - http://www.fsnewsletter.amaravati.org/html/19/jun2.htm

Edited June 4, 2013 by beautifulthailand99

[MAJIC]

I have no idea if it is generally accepted or not,but I have seen many who do smoke and I do not have a problem.

Personally: if they do smoke,where is the problem? if they are helping people? then it's a small price to pay,for a way of life,that has never claimed to be perfect!

[MAJIC]

sorry wrong forum.

Though I do consider cigarettes to be mind altering and unlike others think they are covered by the precepts.

WRONG FORUM..?? THAIVISA is the Forum, but it may be the wrong subject area - ALTHOUGH, in my experience finding the correct subject area can be quite difficult.

HOWEVER, to answer the question.... Buddhist teaching specifically state that Monks should abstain from all worldy pursuits; i.e. no intoxication of any kind ;no booze, no beer, no women, no cigarettes, no Betel, no drugs, no money, no telephone, no TV. Even meat is forbidden, but allowed if offered.

T.I.T. Where we see someone in robes in a bank, or smoking, or chewing betel, or carrying money or talking on a phone, or even asking for donations - the obvious result is that those individuals are not true monks, but are scamming the system...

Or perhaps they a Just Human beings.

Agreed! but perhaps they have chosen the wrong career?

[Sarathi]

Very few monks chose their career - most are dumped into it at an early age through various circumstances. Some grow to love it, some wish they could leave, and many more just get by the only way they know how.

[sustento]

Why does it matter to the OP what other people do?

"Go forth and seek YOUR OWN salvation"...

[Several]

Of all the destructive and horrific things that happen in this dying world it amazes me that many people still focus on smoking as being evil. Its like someone on the Titanic saying 'put that cigarette out' to one of the band. Regardless of our habits we all die anyway.

[rockyysdt]

Regardless of whether there is a precept specifically referring to smoking or not, in terms of a Monks practice, this activity is a violation on so many levels.

The number of ways such practice will impact only increases with the level of ones awareness.

To allow acts of foolishness to regularly occur due to a technicality enters the realm of legality, and nothing to do with the spirit of the 4 Noble Truths.

Edited June 12, 2013 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Ajahn Chah the notable forest monk from Isaan - ordered all his monks to stop smoking but he himself did not - the reason he gave was he was not attached to it. They were different times though when the health issues weren't as widely known.

“Ajahn Sumedho started out life at Ajahn Chah’s monastery as a very zealous, hyperkeen monk…he was convinced that Ajahn Chah was the

greatest dharma teacher and the most enlightened master.” But, over time he noticed flaws in Ajahn Chah, such as smoking, gaining weight, and

talking with people instead of meditating. He chided the dharma teacher in private and asked him to set a better example. He expected an intense

reaction but instead “Ajahn Chah looked at him gently and said, ‘Well, I’m very grateful to you Sumedho for bringing up these things up to me.

I’ll really consider what you’ve said and see what can be done. But also you should bear in mind that perhaps it’s a good thing that I’m not

perfect. Otherwise you might be looking for the Buddha somewhere outside your own mind.’ There was a long and poignant silence. Then the young

Sumedho crawled away simultaneously heartened and chastened.” (Amaro Bhikkhu)

Another view on smoking under Ajahn Chah - http://www.fsnewsletter.amaravati.org/html/19/jun2.htm

This says it all.

All, with the exception of the "fully enlightened", are deluded, with varying degrees of ego.

A Monk of many years, who I was fortunate to have audience with recently, confided that he knew of at least a half dozen who walked with the belief they were enlightened, when they were clearly not.

He himself also suffered with such delusion for a small period.

Edited June 12, 2013 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Of all the destructive and horrific things that happen in this dying world it amazes me that many people still focus on smoking as being evil. Its like someone on the Titanic saying 'put that cigarette out' to one of the band. Regardless of our habits we all die anyway.

Quote: W.H.O.

• Tobacco kills up to half of its users.
• Tobacco kills nearly 6 million people each year, of whom more

  than 5 million are from direct tobacco use and more than 600 000 are

  nonsmokers exposed to second-hand smoke. Unless urgent action is taken,

  the annual death toll could rise to more than eight million by 2030.

• Nearly 80% of the world's one billion smokers live in low- and middle-income countries.
• Consumption of tobacco products is increasing globally, though it

  is decreasing in some high-income and upper middle-income countries

  .

As harm takes time, issues are not immediately apparent.

There are many levels at play. This is only one of them.

Another level is the compromise of the first 4 steps of Anapanasiti in ways one cannot even begin to appreciate.

Another is the example it sets for future followers.

Another is the attachment"" and its influence on "Ego".

Another its huge monetary cost to the community, resource sadly needed in other areas.

Another is its impact of Medical facilities impacting on the ability to perform other medical procedures.

Another is the considerable percentage of the wealth generated in tobacco sales devoted to developing ways to addict new users.

Another is the Kharma and its fruit, Vipaka generated from joint profits (Goverment tax/excise) generated from such enterprise.

One only need examine the "food reflection" read out at Wat Suan Mokkh before dining:

With wise reflection I eat this food

Not for play, not for intoxication

Not for fattening, not for beautification

Only to maintain this body

To stay alive and healthy

To support the spiritual way of life

Thus I let go of unpleasant feelings

And do not stir up new ones

Thereby the process of life goes on

Blameless, at ease, and in peace

I wonder which part of the act of smoking fulfills such values?

Could there be many other reasons we cannot even begin to understand due to our attachment to delusion and lacking awareness?

Edited June 12, 2013 by rockyysdt

[uptheos]

Monks can do whatever they like, it just depends how many lifetimes they want to spend to achieve their ultimate goal.

[rockyysdt]

Monks can do whatever they like, it just depends how many lifetimes they want to spend to achieve their ultimate goal.

I would say there are many things one may choose to do free of anothers' views, but suggest, in terms of Monkhood (Bikkhu/Bikkhuni), one should de frock first.

Edited June 12, 2013 by rockyysdt

[muythai2013]

Buddha smoked, and that's a fact.

will surely be disputed here like everything but he did.

[rockyysdt]

Buddha smoked, and that's a fact.

will surely be disputed here like everything but he did.

My understanding is that tobacco was not known in the East 2,500 years ago.

Tobacco originated in the Americas, the earliest known archeological use of tobacco by humans spans back to 432 AD in Southern Mexico.

Tobacco wasn't introduced into Europe and the East until well after this time.

What is your source?

Edited June 12, 2013 by rockyysdt