Nsa Contractor Identifies Himself As Source

[wealth]

Americans Disapprove of Government Surveillance Programs Americans split on whether leaker did the right or wrong thing

by Frank Newport

PRINCETON, NJ -- More Americans disapprove (53%) than approve (37%) of the federal government agency program that as part of its efforts to investigate terrorism obtained records from U.S. telephone and Internet companies to "compile telephone call logs and Internet communications."

Gallup is the only one I'd trust. for this time. Explanation is well done on the site. http://www.gallup.com/poll/163043/americans-disapprove-government-surveillance-programs.aspx

Yeah, 21% of Americans disapprove of the government's actions, but say there could be circumstances in which it would be right for the government to carry out such a program, yielding a combined total of 58% of all Americans who either approve or could theoretically approve under certain circumstances. (Emphasis added.)

The combined 58% in the Gallup survey who either approve or say there might be circumstances in which such a program would be right is similar to the acceptable percentage in the Pew/Post wording. (Emphasis added.)

It sounds like Gallup is pretty thrilled and tickled pink to find itself in the same ballpark as a widely respected pollster, the Pew Center, which does global polling as well as national polling in the U.S. and abroad. Gallup had to make a big reach to get up the level of Pew, but Gallup got themselves there by hook or by crook.

Is this the part of the explanation that you think was "well done" and which makes you say, "Gallup is the only one I'd trust, for this time."?

Opinions are like a river and surges forward (part of a democratic progress) and can never be put in a box as a given. This is one of the reasons Prism is terrible wrong and Snowden almost holy.

Polls can never be a measure of anything. Still I trust Gallup more, at least they do field work and not just typing an excel file without action.

So please no fishing here.

BTW, flipping a coin is more accurate in a two party State.

Edited June 13, 2013 by wealth

[FDog]

And still Publicus talks more crap. Stick to the subject and don't play the man.

Is it ok for the US govt to intercept anything and everything from citizens of another country?

If so, then you are happy that the Chinese also do the same. What is good for the goose........and don't feed us bullshit about the US govt being all about good in the world. We all know that is not true.

No one cares about what Assange did as a teenager, no one cares whether Snowden masturbated as a teenager, this isn't about what they did, it is about what the US govt is doing.

[JDGRUEN]

Senators challenge NSA's claim to have foiled 'dozens' of terror attacks

Mark Udall and Ron Wyden, both members of the Senate intelligence committee, said they were not convinced by the testimony of the NSA director, General Keith Alexander, on Capitol Hill on Wednesday, who claimed that evidence gleaned from surveillance helped thwart attacks in the US.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/senators-challenge-nsa-surveillance-terrorism?guni=Network+front%3Anetwork-front+aux-1+top-stories-1%3ABento+box+8+col%3APosition1%3Asublinks

[Publicus]

After Mr. Snowden claimed that the U.S. hacks "hundreds of Chinese targets", an unhappy Beijing responded...

Beijing Reacts to Snowden Claims U.S. Hacked ‘Hundreds’ of Chinese Targets

By Hannah BeechJune 13, 2013

“This is not the first time that U.S. government agencies’ wrongdoings have aroused widespread public concern,” opined the China Daily in an editorial. In a separate news article, the official state newspaper wrote that “analysts” believed the bombshells dropped in the Snowden affair are “certain to stain Washington’s overseas image and test developing Sino-U.S. ties.”

http://world.time.com/2013/06/13/beijing-reacts-to-snowden-claims-u-s-hacked-hundreds-of-chinese-targets/

Good news for the good guys. And this is only the proverbial tip of the iceberg. Snowden said we'd been going it, continue to do it. At least now we know Snowden is at least capable of some truth telling.

People here so sensitive to the feelings of the cyber cut throats in Beijing will I suppose find this equally disturbing, if not more so.

Inside the NSA's Ultra-Secret China Hacking Group

Deep within the National Security Agency, an elite, rarely discussed team of hackers and spies is targeting America's enemies abroad.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside_the_nsa_s_ultra_secret_china_hacking_group

Edited June 13, 2013 by Publicus

[Publicus]

And still Publicus talks more crap. Stick to the subject and don't play the man.

Is it ok for the US govt to intercept anything and everything from citizens of another country?

If so, then you are happy that the Chinese also do the same. What is good for the goose........and don't feed us bullshit about the US govt being all about good in the world. We all know that is not true.

No one cares about what Assange did as a teenager, no one cares whether Snowden masturbated as a teenager, this isn't about what they did, it is about what the US govt is doing.

It's more about the national security of the United States and what Edward Snowden is providing to enemies of the United States.

The CCP-PRC is a 21st century fascist dictatorship that censors, indoctrinates and punishes its sheeple. The CCP--PRC is the only government of the world to have a Nobel Peace Laureate, Dr Liu Xiaobo (2010) in prison. Anyone who might try to equate the United States and the Chinese Communist Party's People's Republic of China is not in his right mind.

Why Edward Snowden is spilling U.S. secrets to China

http://news.yahoo.com/why-edward-snowden-spilling-u-secrets-china-070000923.html

Hong Kong Was an Odd Choice For NSA Leaker Edward Snowden

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/10/edward_snowden_leak_investigation_justice_department_announces_probe_of.html

Snowden Wrote 700-Plus Posts on Chat Boards About Everything From Government to Girls

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/13/edward_snowden_ars_technica_nsa_leaker_s_internet_commenting_past_uncovered.html

Edited June 13, 2013 by Publicus

[Scott]

A post and reply have been deleted. Stick to the topic and the issues related directly to it.

[Steely Dan]

And still Publicus talks more crap. Stick to the subject and don't play the man.

Is it ok for the US govt to intercept anything and everything from citizens of another country?

If so, then you are happy that the Chinese also do the same. What is good for the goose........and don't feed us bullshit about the US govt being all about good in the world. We all know that is not true.

No one cares about what Assange did as a teenager, no one cares whether Snowden masturbated as a teenager, this isn't about what they did, it is about what the US govt is doing.

It's more about the national security of the United States and what Edward Snowden is providing to enemies of the United States.

The CCP-PRC is a 21st century fascist dictatorship that censors, indoctrinates and punishes its sheeple. The CCP--PRC is the only government of the world to have a Nobel Peace Laureate, Dr Liu Xiaobo (2010) in prison. Anyone who might try to equate the United States and the Chinese Communist Party's People's Republic of China is not in his right mind.

Why Edward Snowden is spilling U.S. secrets to China

http://news.yahoo.com/why-edward-snowden-spilling-u-secrets-china-070000923.html

Hong Kong Was an Odd Choice For NSA Leaker Edward Snowden

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/10/edward_snowden_leak_investigation_justice_department_announces_probe_of.html

Snowden Wrote 700-Plus Posts on Chat Boards About Everything From Government to Girls

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/13/edward_snowden_ars_technica_nsa_leaker_s_internet_commenting_past_uncovered.html

And you have written over 2300 posts on a chat forum about your twin obsessions, namely China and the right wing. Indeed you are posting so much diversionary nonsense it would appear people have given up replying to you and the mods have given up moderating you. Simply put, information released relating to Snowden's private online activities rather proves his point about the danger of the government misusing information gleaned. To an extent we can't roll the clock back on privacy, but the Obama administration is the most leaky and untrustworthy I can remember.

[Ulysses G.]

[Publicus]

Senators challenge NSA's claim to have foiled 'dozens' of terror attacks

Mark Udall and Ron Wyden, both members of the Senate intelligence committee, said they were not convinced by the testimony of the NSA director, General Keith Alexander, on Capitol Hill on Wednesday, who claimed that evidence gleaned from surveillance helped thwart attacks in the US.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/senators-challenge-nsa-surveillance-terrorism?guni=Network+front%3Anetwork-front+aux-1+top-stories-1%3ABento+box+8+col%3APosition1%3Asublinks

The Supreme Court recently struck down a challenge to government surveillance programs, ruling in Clapper v. Amnesty International USA that the plaintiffs had no standing in the case. In other words, the plaintiffs Amnesty International USA had no proof that they were either the targets of surveillance or would be in the future. This is another instance of paranoia.

Sen Wyden is well known on Capitol Hill as an eccentric who is predictable only in that he is unpredictable. Sen Udall arrived only more recently and already has gained the same kind of reputation. Their questioning of Gen Keith Alexander, director of the NSA and commanding general of the U.S. Cyber Command is out of bounds. It would seem that Gen Alexander knows his oath to the Constitution better than either of the two open-mouthed politician senators do.

[Publicus]

And still Publicus talks more crap. Stick to the subject and don't play the man.

Is it ok for the US govt to intercept anything and everything from citizens of another country?

If so, then you are happy that the Chinese also do the same. What is good for the goose........and don't feed us bullshit about the US govt being all about good in the world. We all know that is not true.

No one cares about what Assange did as a teenager, no one cares whether Snowden masturbated as a teenager, this isn't about what they did, it is about what the US govt is doing.

It's more about the national security of the United States and what Edward Snowden is providing to enemies of the United States.

The CCP-PRC is a 21st century fascist dictatorship that censors, indoctrinates and punishes its sheeple. The CCP--PRC is the only government of the world to have a Nobel Peace Laureate, Dr Liu Xiaobo (2010) in prison. Anyone who might try to equate the United States and the Chinese Communist Party's People's Republic of China is not in his right mind.

Why Edward Snowden is spilling U.S. secrets to China

http://news.yahoo.com/why-edward-snowden-spilling-u-secrets-china-070000923.html

Hong Kong Was an Odd Choice For NSA Leaker Edward Snowden

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/10/edward_snowden_leak_investigation_justice_department_announces_probe_of.html

Snowden Wrote 700-Plus Posts on Chat Boards About Everything From Government to Girls

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/13/edward_snowden_ars_technica_nsa_leaker_s_internet_commenting_past_uncovered.html

And you have written over 2300 posts on a chat forum about your twin obsessions, namely China and the right wing. Indeed you are posting so much diversionary nonsense it would appear people have given up replying to you and the mods have given up moderating you. Simply put, information released relating to Snowden's private online activities rather proves his point about the danger of the government misusing information gleaned. To an extent we can't roll the clock back on privacy, but the Obama administration is the most leaky and untrustworthy I can remember.

Here again come the usual suspects. But thank you anyway for your reply. It appears to be your turn to take a shot at it. Several have had their posts deleted because of off topic diversionary personal attacks, and my replies too.

Almost every post from all of the usual suspects makes it a point to attack Prez Obama. Strong and strident attacks against Prez Obama are the ever present and focused theme. One poster even said aloud that your purpose is to tie up Prez Obama over the next three years, to keep him "dodging political bullets" to the point that he can't do his job. This, he said, is his definition of what a patriot can do. It also is a stark admission of your real purpose and goal and I strongly suspect your pursue it anywhere you can in any ways you can.

You keep trying but you can't make a case that makes any sense to the vast center-middle of the U.S. body politic. You drag out this discussion only to try to convince others to join you in your unfortunate efforts. The usual suspects have shown themselves to try any approach, say anything, quote anyone they like etc and to take turns doing it.

I'd reiterate that the far right wing of the U.S. political spectrum is over represented at TVF, which is not anyone's fault, just reality.

Your frustration in your overstatements about the nature of and my number of posts, which are on a variety of topics, is ever apparent. I became active at TVF in 2007, long before Barack Obama became President of the United States.

Now let's get back to the discussion of the real issues before us.

[lomatopo]

NSA director: 'Dozens' of terrorist plots foiled by surveillance programs

Does anyone have a feel for how many "dozens" might be" Are these "baker's dozens"? Is it thirteen? Twenty-five?

For an agency tasked with gathering intelligence one would think they could accurately represent the number of terror plots foiled? Would revealing the exact figure somehow embolden or otherwise inform the "enemy"?

In the past, when pressed for details on how many Americans had been "accidently" surveilled, the NSA has responded that it would detract from their primary task to tally this information, and that they didn't keep track of this information.

If anyone thinks that concerns about the NSA's domestic surveillance programs, as revealed by Mr. Snowden, are new, I would refer you to the Church Committee's 1975 investigation into the NSA'a illegal surveillance of American citizens who were guilty of protesting the Vietnam War, or engaged in the Civil Rights movement.

L. Britt Snyder – Recollections From The Church Committee's Investigation of NSA: http://news.rapgenius.com/L-britt-snyder-recollections-from-the-church-committees-investigation-of-nsa-lyrics

"The first was a reference to an office in New York that he CIA had provided to the NSA for the purpose of copying telegrams. The other disclosed that the CIA had asked the NSA to monitor the communications of certain U.S. citizens active in the anti-war movement."

The Church Committee learned that beginning in the 1950s, the CIA and Federal Bureau of Investigation intercepted, opened and photographed more than 215,000 pieces of mail by the time the program called "HTLINGUAL" was shut down in 1973. This program was all done under the "mail covers" program. A mail cover is when the government records without a warrant or notification all information on the outside of an envelope or package, including the name of the sender and the recipient. The Church report found that the CIA was zealous about keeping the United States Postal Service from learning that mail was being opened by government agents. CIA agents moved mail to a private room to open the mail or in some cases opened envelopes at night after stuffing them in briefcases or coat pockets to deceive postal officials.

The FBI illegal surveilled Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., from 1958 until his death. Evidently J. Edgar Hoover enjoyed listening to Dr. King having intimate relations. These records are sealed until 2027.

Edited June 14, 2013 by lomatopo

[Scott]

The thread is being moderated.

It has been noted that some posts are starting to get a little bit too personal. The thread isn't about your opinion of other posters.

Some tangential posts have been allowed to stand and some responses. A lot of posts have been deleted when the tangent is the only issue being discussed.

Please be civil and stay on the topic.

[Publicus]

NSA director: 'Dozens' of terrorist plots foiled by surveillance programs

Does anyone have a feel for how many "dozens" might be" Are these "baker's dozens"? Is it thirteen? Twenty-five?

For an agency tasked with gathering intelligence one would think they could accurately represent the number of terror plots foiled? Would revealing the exact figure somehow embolden or otherwise inform the "enemy"?

>>>SNIP>>>

Yes, absolutely. It would cost lives and diminish our intelligence capabilities. It would result in increased threats to our national security; old and new threats would have greater efficacy. This is obvious on the face of it, without having to be director of the NSA.

[chrisinth]

What Snowden has done is illegal and wrong, according to the law. If he has been working for the NSA, or any other intelligence agency, and is working with or has access to classified materials, he will have signed a disclaimer along the lines of the official secrets act ensuring he does not reveal his work. With the revelations he has made, he has committed treason! No doubt as these are government agencies we are talking about.

What I don't understand is the real reason he did it. Anyone who believes that these actions aren't happening now, or haven't been happening in the past needs to see the light. When you consider that phone monitoring has been active in the UK since the early 70's (Northern Ireland to the mainland), it is only a natural progression with the advancement of technology that intelligence gathering organizations throughout the world will spread the net, with or without the providers permission. All Snowden has done is confirm it, and my question still remains as to why he has destroyed his life by doing this.

Again what I don't get is that the intelligence world has knee-jerked and put this PRC spin on the story (because he is/was in Hong Kong); the only point of this as far as I can see is to discredit Snowden to the public he has leaked the information to putting him from 'Hero" to a traitor working for the Chinese. Of course this is only my take on it, perhaps they do have information that puts him in the Chinese camp, but would they make this public knowledge? I don't think so!

Manarak made a comment in Post #51 which I whole heartedly agree with, and it is all about the control, rather access to, the information gathered.

"But: I don't care about all this as long as my information stays in the intelligence community, meaning it doesn't get leaked to outside the CIA or NSA.

The very day this information will be used by the tax authorities or law enforcement, or worse, for political goals, the country will be lost."

[geriatrickid]

And still Publicus talks more crap. Stick to the subject and don't play the man.

Is it ok for the US govt to intercept anything and everything from citizens of another country?

If so, then you are happy that the Chinese also do the same. What is good for the goose........and don't feed us bullshit about the US govt being all about good in the world. We all know that is not true.

No one cares about what Assange did as a teenager, no one cares whether Snowden masturbated as a teenager, this isn't about what they did, it is about what the US govt is doing.

Yes, it is ok for the USA to intercept communications from citizens of another country if it means that an act of terror will be prevented. I really don't care of Abdul calling from Yemen gets his call intercepted by a software program looking for key words. The difference between the Chinese and the US methodology is that the US system has oversight and the legalities of the process are considered. I'll take the USA warts and all any day of the week over the Chinese military machine.

Assange is not the topic, although he must be delighted to be have another uneducated self appointed beacon of virtue to occupy his time. I'd like to know just how Snowden was able to afford his quick jet exit to Hong Kong and what is now turning into quite a lengthy stay in one of the most expensive cities in the world. The hotel where Snowden was staying wasn't a budget class hostel. Even a cheap hotel is $250+ a night. Where does a technical clerk get that kind of money?

[geriatrickid]

I believe that Mr. Snowden was compromised and that he has been working for the Chinese government. It is awfully convenient, that Mr. Snowden has made the allegations just as the US and its allies were getting tough with Chinese cyber attacks and spying. It is a strange coincidence that Mr. Snowden sought refuge in a Chinese fiefdom where he is assured of Chinese security service protection and support.

I believe that the USA may have been blindsided or even bungled its investigation of Mr. Snowden and that the Chinese are now taking what could have been a spying fiasco and turned it into an opportunity.

This is not the first episode of its kind in recent years, and I direct your attention to the case of Jeffrey Delsisle the Canadian naval officer that was spying for the Russians between 2007-2011 and compromised the Stoneghost surveillance network that tied Australia, New Zealand, the UK and USA information gathering systems. Because of Delisle's treason, Canada has suffered irreparable harm. The Snowden episode is quite similar except, the evidence to show that Snowden was being paid by the Chinese has yet to surface. It will come. The Delisle case, was bungled and the man was allowed to spy for too long despite CSIS surveillance. Even the FBI which was involved was accused of taking too long to investigate. I expect that similar ineptitude will be demonstrated in the Snowden case. The man is no hero. Instead, I am calling him a disgusting traitor.

[wealth]

We call on you to ensure that whistleblower Edward Snowden is treated fairly, humanely and given due process. The PRISM program is one of the greatest violations of privacy ever committed by a government. We demand that you terminate it immediately, and that Edward Snowden be recognized as a whistleblower acting in the public interest -- not as a dangerous criminal.

Snowden wants to fight at the court if he is granted a fair trial under fair circumstances!!! Possible?

Avaaz collected over 530000 signatures in less than 24 hours

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_prism_global/?fp

[Publicus]

Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Glenn Beck, Michael Moore call NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden a hero

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/10/glenn-beck-michael-moore-call-nsa-whistleblower-ed/

Edited June 14, 2013 by Publicus

[wealth]

Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Glenn Beck, Michael Moore call NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden a hero

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/10/glenn-beck-michael-moore-call-nsa-whistleblower-ed/

Aaron Russo would join if he would be still alive. It was him who was befriended by the Rockefellers who gave him lots of insight. Search it on Youtube. No doubt that the Pauls are in as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwtgrKKZUe0

Edited June 14, 2013 by wealth

[chrisinth]

I believe that Mr. Snowden was compromised and that he has been working for the Chinese government. It is awfully convenient, that Mr. Snowden has made the allegations just as the US and its allies were getting tough with Chinese cyber attacks and spying. It is a strange coincidence that Mr. Snowden sought refuge in a Chinese fiefdom where he is assured of Chinese security service protection and support.

I believe that the USA may have been blindsided or even bungled its investigation of Mr. Snowden and that the Chinese are now taking what could have been a spying fiasco and turned it into an opportunity.

This is not the first episode of its kind in recent years, and I direct your attention to the case of Jeffrey Delsisle the Canadian naval officer that was spying for the Russians between 2007-2011 and compromised the Stoneghost surveillance network that tied Australia, New Zealand, the UK and USA information gathering systems. Because of Delisle's treason, Canada has suffered irreparable harm. The Snowden episode is quite similar except, the evidence to show that Snowden was being paid by the Chinese has yet to surface. It will come. The Delisle case, was bungled and the man was allowed to spy for too long despite CSIS surveillance. Even the FBI which was involved was accused of taking too long to investigate. I expect that similar ineptitude will be demonstrated in the Snowden case. The man is no hero. Instead, I am calling him a disgusting traitor.

I still tend to believe the other side of the coin, that he is being discredited and linked to the PRC because of the fact that he was in HK, knee-jerk comments. The NSA only discovered his identity because of his admission to the fact (according to the information we have). If they thought there was a conspiracy in their organization, they would be doing an extremely deep in-house investigation instead of spouting off to the media.

Not really the actions of a spy, revealing secrets to the world instead of passing them to his masters..............

IMHO of course...............

[wealth]

sky news interviewed Assange

[manarak]

I believe that Mr. Snowden was compromised and that he has been working for the Chinese government. It is awfully convenient, that Mr. Snowden has made the allegations just as the US and its allies were getting tough with Chinese cyber attacks and spying. It is a strange coincidence that Mr. Snowden sought refuge in a Chinese fiefdom where he is assured of Chinese security service protection and support.

I believe that the USA may have been blindsided or even bungled its investigation of Mr. Snowden and that the Chinese are now taking what could have been a spying fiasco and turned it into an opportunity.

This is not the first episode of its kind in recent years, and I direct your attention to the case of Jeffrey Delsisle the Canadian naval officer that was spying for the Russians between 2007-2011 and compromised the Stoneghost surveillance network that tied Australia, New Zealand, the UK and USA information gathering systems. Because of Delisle's treason, Canada has suffered irreparable harm. The Snowden episode is quite similar except, the evidence to show that Snowden was being paid by the Chinese has yet to surface. It will come. The Delisle case, was bungled and the man was allowed to spy for too long despite CSIS surveillance. Even the FBI which was involved was accused of taking too long to investigate. I expect that similar ineptitude will be demonstrated in the Snowden case. The man is no hero. Instead, I am calling him a disgusting traitor.

Yes, he is a traitor, but not a disgusting one in my opinion.

The theory of Snowden being a Chinese spy is unlikely to be true. A 3 month contractor... 555

Although, if that is the official explanation inspite of missing proof at the moment, I am sure such proof will be "found" later.

[wealth]

I believe that Mr. Snowden was compromised and that he has been working for the Chinese government. It is awfully convenient, that Mr. Snowden has made the allegations just as the US and its allies were getting tough with Chinese cyber attacks and spying. It is a strange coincidence that Mr. Snowden sought refuge in a Chinese fiefdom where he is assured of Chinese security service protection and support.

I believe that the USA may have been blindsided or even bungled its investigation of Mr. Snowden and that the Chinese are now taking what could have been a spying fiasco and turned it into an opportunity.

This is not the first episode of its kind in recent years, and I direct your attention to the case of Jeffrey Delsisle the Canadian naval officer that was spying for the Russians between 2007-2011 and compromised the Stoneghost surveillance network that tied Australia, New Zealand, the UK and USA information gathering systems. Because of Delisle's treason, Canada has suffered irreparable harm. The Snowden episode is quite similar except, the evidence to show that Snowden was being paid by the Chinese has yet to surface. It will come. The Delisle case, was bungled and the man was allowed to spy for too long despite CSIS surveillance. Even the FBI which was involved was accused of taking too long to investigate. I expect that similar ineptitude will be demonstrated in the Snowden case. The man is no hero. Instead, I am calling him a disgusting traitor.

Yes, he is a traitor, but not a disgusting one in my opinion.

The theory of Snowden being a Chinese spy is unlikely to be true. A 3 month contractor... 555

Although, if that is the official explanation inspite of missing proof at the moment, I am sure such proof will be "found" later.

it depends on the law, hidden law. Hidden courts and laws make it worse and that is on purpose. Nothing much to do with security, freedom or protection.

I don't believe he will get busted when he receives a fair trial. That's actually what he wants and not to be ruled or judged by a hidden court.

Good on you when you believe your God given rights and privacy are in good hands with these agencies. It's like when you have a saving account in Cyprus. Believe it or nor, this time will come to all of us and sooner than expected. The same who just steal your savings are conducting the governments and setup their puppets. This may explain the secrecy. In meanwhile they funnel all monies out into their pockets. They're in a position to gain all the time and even insured their gambling monies. Small investors don't have that privilege.

America is bankrupt and was declared so since 1933 I think. Since then people are placed as collateral to private banks, even newborns get automatically into debts. This explains most of it.

There was never a jubilee since thousands of years. Why?

Even the oversea Chinese have it in place.

excerpt from "We are Chinese and proud of it"

#6. We acknowledge life cycles. We accept that wealth in a family stays for

three generations (urban myth?). Thus, every 4th generation will have to

work from scratch. I.e. first generation earns the money from scratch,

second generation spends the money on education, third generation gets

spoiled and wastes all the inheritance. Then we are back to square one.

Some families hang on to their wealth a little longer than most.****

[Steely Dan]

@Publicus,

You are at least putting up a spirited defense of your deity, kind of reminds me of the little Dutch boy sticking his finger in the dyke. I would suggest you quit burning your right wing straw man though, has it occurred to you that some right wing authoritarians might have no problem with blanket surveillance, and conversely some centre-left liberals may be highly uneasy about the precedent being set by the current administration, and also be insulted to be pigeon holed as right wing for their views.

I was trying to explain the NSA scandal to my 75 year old mother, she had just registered with facebook the other day. I told her how the U.S government was collecting details of phone calls and e-mails from hundreds of millions of Americans, furthermore they had lobbied strongly for the E.U to relax rules on privacy, no doubt to cast the net even wider. I did point out the government arguments viz terrorism. She said it sounded a bit of an intrusion, a bit like how tele-marketing companies seem to somehow get your phone number. I stated it's a bit more of an intrusion if the tax authorities investigate you because they don't like your politics, or release embarrassing details about your private life that ends your career. My point is the average person has a very sketchy picture of the nature or extent to which mined data can be misused, which renders opinion polls as useful as asking people whether they believe the Higgs-Boson particle exists or not. Whatever Scott Rasmussen had for breakfast or how devient the 645 people Gallup interviewed were is quite irrelevant.

What is relevant is that a government that routinely uses the executive branch for political ends, and seems to have an uncanny knack of producing damaging details from the past of it's political opponents at the most opportune time should not be trusted with a letter opener, let alone archived databases of personal details of it's entire population.

[lomatopo]

NSA director: 'Dozens' of terrorist plots foiled by surveillance programs

Does anyone have a feel for how many "dozens" might be" Are these "baker's dozens"? Is it thirteen? Twenty-five?

For an agency tasked with gathering intelligence one would think they could accurately represent the number of terror plots foiled? Would revealing the exact figure somehow embolden or otherwise inform the "enemy"?

>>>SNIP>>>

Yes, absolutely. It would cost lives and diminish our intelligence capabilities. It would result in increased threats to our national security; old and new threats would have greater efficacy. This is obvious on the face of it, without having to be director of the NSA.

So much for greater efficacy.

Evidently the NSA hopes to publicly release the exact number of foiled attacks within the next week, according to NSA Director Keith Alexander.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/12/18923839-nsa-director-dozens-of-terrorist-plots-foiled-by-surveillance-programs?lite

Edited June 14, 2013 by lomatopo

[lomatopo]

Senator Frank Church – who chaired the famous “Church Committee” into the unlawful FBI Cointel program, and who chaired the Senate Foreign Relations Committee – said in 1975:

“Th[e National Security Agency's] capability at any time could be turned around on the American people, and no American would have any privacy left, such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide.

The total lack of transparency, pretty much no judicial oversight, little or no oversight from both the Executive and Legislative branches, who can the American public rely on for details of the NSA's clandestine and illegal surveillance of American citizens? Whistle-blowers like Thomas Drake, Mark Klein, William Binney, J. Kirk Wiebe and Edward Snowden serve a purpose in a Democracy.

There seems to be a concerted effort to paint Mr. Snowden as a spy for a foreign government. One would think the NSA would have the necessary intel. to support these efforts?

[lomatopo]

NSA surveillance disclosure could affect court cases

A lawyer in a Florida robbery case has already filed a motion asking the agency to turn over his client's phone records, in what could be a milestone request.

By Matt Pearce, Los Angeles Times

June 13, 2013, 9:11 p.m.

When federal officials recently confirmed the existence of a massive National Security Agency program that has been collecting Americans' phone data for years, they argued it was needed to fight terrorism. But that acknowledgment has opened potentially seismic rifts in the nation's legal system, allowing defendants to argue that the government is holding a massive trove of evidence that is necessary to their cases — the same kind of evidence that, when it's collected by police, is commonly turned over to defendants.

As a result, one south Florida case has become a surprise center of focus in the debate over secret government surveillance. It may prompt a midtrial showdown with the federal government that would be closely watched by privacy advocates and national security officials alike.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-nsa-leak-robbery-20130614,0,2282361.story

[lomatopo]

Snowden’s CIA Drunk Driving Claim Questioned

By Lee Ferran

Jun 12, 2013 11:12am

The Swiss government has formally asked the U.S. for “clarification” on a claim from alleged NSA leaker Edward Snowden that CIA agents in Geneva pushed a banker to drink and drive as part of a dangerous recruitment ploy.

In an attempt to learn secret financial information, Snowden alleged that undercover CIA agents would get the banker drunk and “encourage” him to drive home in his car. When the banker was eventually arrested for drunk driving, the CIA operatives offered to help him out of the jam, paving the way for recruitment as a source.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/06/switzerland-questions-u-s-over-cia-drunk-driving-gambit/

[lomatopo]

Pre-9/11 NSA Memo Pushed to Rethink 4th Amendment

By Philip Ewing, Politico

09 June 13

The National Security Agency pushed for the government to "rethink" the Fourth Amendment when it argued in a classified memo that it needed new authorities and capabilities for the information age.

The 2001 memo, later declassified and posted online by George Washington University's National Security Archive, makes a case to the incoming George W. Bush administration that the NSA needs new authorities and technology to adapt to the Internet era.

In one key paragraph, NSA wrote that its new phase meant the U.S. must reevaluate its approach toward signals intelligence, or "SIGINT," and the Constitution's Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable search and seizure.

"The Fourth Amendment is as applicable to eSIGINT as it is to the SIGINT of yesterday and today," it wrote. "The Information Age will however cause us to rethink and reapply the procedures, policies and authorities born in an earlier electronic surveillance environment."

http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/318-66/17848-pre-911-nsa-memo-pushed-to-rethink-4th-amendment

Here is the original NSA document. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB24/nsa25.pdf

[chuckd]

I made a post several days ago quoting Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA) as claiming Obama's campaign had set up a data base that "no one has ever seen before in life...". She went on to say "that data base will have information on everything on individuals that has never been done before."

It would seem the NSA information has already been used for somewhat suspicious motives by this administration in the last election, and future elections.

Where else could they get information on everything on everyone?

Google...Maxine Waters confirms "Big Brother" database 2013.