Got Ripped Off By Thai Couple And Police

[LaoPo]

I had a similar situtation were my dad and I and his hoe for the day......were in the Central Pattaya hotel....."

that makes 3 blinks...

LaoPo

[Maejo Man]

I had a similar situtation were my dad and I and his hoe for the day were in the central Pattaya

Typical from a man whose whole life is one large acronym

[qualtrough]

Interesting topic. While not central to the issue, I get a real kick out of the forum members who somehow think they are much safer sitting in taxis and buses instead of driving themselves. They either have a very low opinion of their own driving skills, or a much higher opinion of Thai driving skills than is usually the case!

[taxexile]

Since the Thai are not principle oriented, and with the high value for personal relationships, they also appear not to be strictly law-oriented. In practice, principles and laws are ever-adjustable to fit persons and situations. In other words, laws are rules laid out in papers; but what is wrong or right depends not on the rules, but instead on who the person is or whom the person knows. A prominent Thai businessman ironically described this phenomenon in a seminar:

We Thai are not a society of law; we are a society of relationship.... It is not what a person has done that's wrong; it's who he is.... If he is your cousin, or your friend, then what he has done is not wrong. But if another person does the same thing, and it's somebody you don't like, then what he has done is wrong...

This is the reason why law enforcement in Thailand hardly works. If it does, it is selectively enforced on those who are either nobody or do not know anybody, or who have no money to ease their wrong-doings or buy their way out of problems. As a society of relationship, it is easy and common for an officer, upon request from even friends of friends, to pull out, cross out or destroy a traffic citation issued. For the sake of a smooth relationship, officers would overlook, turn a blind eye, or keep silent. The point here is that, while the basic Thai value system should not be blamed as the major factor for corruption, it definitely does not help to inhibit corruption either.

In general, this characteristic "Flexibility and Adjustment" value orientation has perhaps accounted for varieties of behavioral patterns, ranging from the facilitation of ethnic assimilation process, to the tendency of being corruption prone. In addition, it provides a deeper understanding to the various existing interpretations of the Thai being "unpredictable", "non-committing", "irresponsible" or even "selfish" and "opportunistic", by foreigners.

Primary Source : Fr. Peter S. Niphon SDB, Hat Yai

Full unedited text (includes footnotes and references)

Secondary Source : S. KOMIN, Psychology of the Thai People: Values and Behavioral Patterns. Bangkok, Research Center, National Institute of Development Administration

Edited April 1, 2006 by taxexile

[LaoPo]

A prominent Thai businessman ironically described this phenomenon in a seminar:

We Thai are not a society of law; we are a society of relationship.... It is not what a person has done that's wrong; it's who he is.... If he is your cousin, or your friend, then what he has done is not wrong. But if another person does the same thing, and it's somebody you don't like, then what he has done is wrong...

A nice and polite way of describing "Corruption"

LaoPo

[gregchambers]

I was just reading in the Pattaya Mail about some guy who was kidnapped en route to a tryst with a Thai gay guy and 700,000 baht ransom demanded - the kidnappers off duty police! As it came out on Friday apparently not an April Fool.

All this craziness to extract 1400 baht from a farang car driver...

Just think about what they are going to do to all the farang investing millions into property in Pattaya (often illegally via ltd co's in the strict sense of the law).

To be fair, the times I have been pulled over by police when on my motorcycle they have been very nice, after checking licence,etc., shaking hands and wishing me on my way; more amused than anything else.

I have been here a long time and it becomes yet more frightening, to the extent that I have serious doubts about bringing in 800k for a retirement visa later this year; esp if we have a second crash if Thaksin et al disintegrates and literally millions of Thais are left deep in debt with disappearing, value wise, assets.

Still a lovely country compared to somewhere like the Phillipinnes but you have to be SO careful...

[Jersey_UK]

Interesting thread. I have never had my own vehicle in Thailand, but I do like the insurance company route.

Spent a little while in the LOS, but never a full time resident - my words of caution are, when relying on the "protection" of a Big Cheese (no Thai for me!), is that the other persons "Big Cheese" may be BIGGER ............, better connected. or better armed

I would also suggest if basing yourself in Thailand to establish a relationship with a lawyer, just in case. In this case I MAY have paid up in the end, but I would have called someone Thai first. And possibly got someone Thai down to the scene ASAP.

FWIW my take on the "key" to establishing a useful (FOR YOU!!!) relationship with someone in Thailand is to have demonstrated some monetary worth to them in the past, and be a fair prospect for monetary worth to them in the future.........(then the being a "good mate" / being willing to help you out is more likely.........especially when the going gets tough - same same Thailand Farangland ) even if this is only at the level of a bottle of scotch at Xmas, to go with the "face" (LOL).

Having said all that, if I was not in my "local" area I would probably just have paid up, if the numbers were not too serious.

BTW one of the things I like about the Thais.......is their attitude of Thailand for the Thais first. Shame that they do not generally extend this looking after each other to when no foreigner is involved. But it ain't my country - I am only a visitor, ALSO looking out for no.1 If they want to p#ss on each other then so be it, I am not dumb enough to get involved or to start complaining that it ain't Kansas - remember it IS a 3rd world banana Republic. Having 7-11's and a Skytrain doesn't change this:D If in doubt, pay up.

[Maigo6]

Either way we would have sooner paid 60,000 baht to a lawer than to pay a scamer 600.

Well, that makes sense.

[jdinasia]

talked to my 2 closest Thai friends yesterday as we drove through Pattaya ... Sattahip ... Rayong ...

They just gigled. Not because the "victim" was farang ... they giggled because he paid.

[The Coder]

Either way we would have sooner paid 60,000 baht to a lawer than to pay a scamer 600.

Well, that makes sense.

Me too. For me it is not about figuring out an optimal way to buy myself out of a situation. It is about refusal to bow to scum that steal money and innocence from good people.

[taxexile]

Me too. For me it is not about figuring out an optimal way to buy myself out of a situation. It is about refusal to bow to scum that steal money and innocence from good people.

in many ways i agree with you , but this is thailand and you have to be pragmatic when events like this overtake you .

what exactly would you have done if you were in that situation , down the police station , you have handed over your passport , they have your car and have told you they will impound it.

can you and all those other posters who have said they wont pay , please tell us your "battle plan " to get your car back , to get your passport back , and to leave the police station , having made the accuser back down from his allegations and having made the police back down from their follow up of those accusations and drive away in your car not having paid a baht to anybody.

assuming that you made the fattal error of not calling the insurance company in the first place.

i think we should be told.

[Maigo6]

what exactly would you have done if you were in that situation

i think we should be told.

I'll tell you what they would have done, Paid up like the OP did, then posted the gripe to an internet forum.

[Thaible]

Thaible is Thai? hmmmmmmmm

but apparently this persona IS a racist!

I've never seen a Thai (particularly with that level of English skills .. spell Farang with an L ....

I think it's racist for farangs to think that all Thais do not have enough intelligence to learn proper English.

Actually, there are a lot more Thais that know proper English than farangs that know proper Thai in the world. We very easily number in the thousands.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Thaible

[chuchok]

Thaible is Thai? hmmmmmmmm

but apparently this persona IS a racist!

I've never seen a Thai (particularly with that level of English skills .. spell Farang with an L ....

I think it's racist for farangs to think that all Thais do not have enough intelligence to learn proper English.

Actually, there are a LOT more Thais that know proper English than farangs that know proper Thai in the world. We very easily number in the thousands.

However, we tend to be from more well-off families and are more picky about which farangs we choose to hang out with. Unlike Thais who have never been outside of the country, we know not all farangs are created equal (some good, some bad, and of course I do not know which category you belong in).

I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, people like you I avoid like the plague.what's the point in hanging around snobby,nepotistic people.life is just too short.

[chonabot]

Actually, there are a LOT more Thais that know proper English than farangs that know proper Thai in the world. We very easily number in the thousands.

A legacy to your fantastic education system no doubt.

Thai isn't an optional/secondary/tertiary language at European/US secondary schools AFAIK.

If your claim is true , it is more a testament to the widespread use of English in the civilized world in comparison with a language which has little use outside of it's own enclaves.

btw I believe you to be a troll.

Edited April 2, 2006 by chonabot

[Thaible]

Thaible is Thai? hmmmmmmmm

but apparently this persona IS a racist!

I've never seen a Thai (particularly with that level of English skills .. spell Farang with an L ....

I think it's racist for farangs to think that all Thais do not have enough intelligence to learn proper English.

Actually, there are a LOT more Thais that know proper English than farangs that know proper Thai in the world. We very easily number in the thousands.

However, we tend to be from more well-off families and are more picky about which farangs we choose to hang out with. Unlike Thais who have never been outside of the country, we know not all farangs are created equal (some good, some bad, and of course I do not know which category you belong in).

I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, people like you I avoid like the plague.what's the point in hanging around snobby,nepotistic people.life is just too short.

No need to be insulted. I'm picky about which Thais I hang out with too. Actually, I'm picky about everyone I hang out with. I'm sure you are too.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Thaible

[JXXXL]

Thaible is Thai? hmmmmmmmm

but apparently this persona IS a racist!

I've never seen a Thai (particularly with that level of English skills .. spell Farang with an L ....

I think it's racist for farangs to think that all Thais do not have enough intelligence to learn proper English.

Actually, there are a lot more Thais that know proper English than farangs that know proper Thai in the world. We very easily number in the thousands.

Wow, THOUSANDS???

Hmmmm......... value of Thai language to someone living outside Thailand? ZERO! Value of a language which is common throughout the world? Substantial.

Thaible, would you consider yourself one of the better educated Thais?

[Neeranam]

FWIW my take on the "key" to establishing a useful (FOR YOU!!!) relationship with someone in Thailand is to have demonstrated some monetary worth to them in the past, and be a fair prospect for monetary worth to them in the future.........(then the being a "good mate" / being willing to help you out is more likely.........especially when the going gets tough - same same Thailand Farangland biggrin.gif ) even if this is only at the level of a bottle of scotch at Xmas, to go with the "face" (LOL).

Although some truth in what you say, there are many exceptions that I know of.

Marrying into the family for one. Connections through work(possibly money). Being the member of a club like Pattaya Yacht Club or Royal Bangkok Sports Club/golf, or some spiritual/religious cult are also some that I know of farang with very high connections. I know some English teachers with very influential "Puu Yai".

[Thaible]

Thaible is Thai? hmmmmmmmm

but apparently this persona IS a racist!

I've never seen a Thai (particularly with that level of English skills .. spell Farang with an L ....

I think it's racist for farangs to think that all Thais do not have enough intelligence to learn proper English.

Actually, there are a lot more Thais that know proper English than farangs that know proper Thai in the world. We very easily number in the thousands.

Wow, THOUSANDS???

Hmmmm......... value of Thai language to someone living outside Thailand? ZERO! Value of a language which is common throughout the world? Substantial.

Thaible, would you consider yourself one of the better educated Thais?

Me? Nope I really don't use very much of what I learned in school. I thought 4 years of undergrad was way too much except for maybe people in the sciences.

Edited April 2, 2006 by Thaible

[ray23]

Well I think you hit the nail on the head, first time through in a foriegn country, you just don't know what you can and can not do. So until you are in that situation it is really agreed to say what you would do, still think the insurance company is the best idea I heard.

I don't think speaking or not speaking a language would make some a racist. I think the desire to learn for a full time esident mught be different in a touris spot, where there are so many that do speak english, compared to us who live up country. Here to survive you have to learn to some degree. There comes a time that you don't want to take your wife with you to buy gas for the car

As a tourist why bother, tain't an easy lauguage to learn

Edited April 2, 2006 by ray23

[Neeranam]

There comes a time that you don't want to take your wife with you to buy gas for the car biggrin.gif

Absolutely, and what about taking the car to the garage to get fixed - that would be a nightmare if you couldn't converse. Or breaking down somewhere, trying to sell it etc etc etc.

I know a guy who has been here for 2 years and can't even ask directions!

[The Coder]

but this is thailand and you have to be pragmatic when events like this overtake you.

No you don’t. I don't buy into the mentality "oh, we should give unsavory people our money because Thailand is different; it isn't much money and it is the easiest way out of their scam". This mentality surely breeds scams against farangs.

what exactly would you have done if you were in that situation , down the police station , you have handed over your passport , they have your car and have told you they will impound it.

But guess what, they will impound the scammer's car too. Guess who is going to suffer more? I would feel pretty good about that, except of course the scammer would surely have crumbled and folded before this point and went back for an easier target. If they want to press charges, let them go ahead and prove it. I’ll be like Ray and battle them all the way to the supreme court if that’s what they want to do. One way or the other, they will be the loser in the end.

can you and all those other posters who have said they wont pay , please tell us your "battle plan "

Battle plan is simple. No money leaves my hands. If they threaten, call their bluff. Sometimes they may not be bluffing resulting in downside risks far above paying your way out. But I am comfortable with that because I can keep my dignity and self esteem.

Hey I’ve been there. At the bottom are the trivial scams like a survey for the "school project" and if I am in a playful mood I act like a bewildered tourist and exclaim "no sex!" when they approach to make them think I see them as prostitutes. Long story, but several years ago the highest stakes was when I was threatened with property damage unless I gave money for a crazy extortion scheme. I calmly told the Thai "why wait?" (my favorite line from the movie The Patriot) and he obliged and went to thrashing right there in front of me. After subduing him, the owner called the police who asked to tell what happened. The idiot had dreamed up an incredible story of complete lies and fabrication as I listened in jaw dropping silence. When I told the complete truth as I had nothing to hide he kept interrupting saying I was lying. The police said sorry, we don’t believe either of you. But due to I think this person's having such a belligerent and demeaning attitude to both me and the police, he ended up booked at the station, forced to pay the owner for all of the property damage, and I was released, giving just a wai to the police on the way out and no baht. I am not proud of it; it was an ugly and unfortunate situation that I hope I never, ever am confronted with again. But at least I can live with myself and don’t need to write all the newspapers about a sob story about being the poor helpless farang with no choice.

[The Dude]

speaking Thai is meaningless when living in tourist areas

[Simmo]

[At the bottom are the trivial scams like a survey for the "school project"

How does this scam work?

[Levent]

But at least I can live with myself and don’t need to write all the newspapers about a sob story about being the poor helpless farang with no choice.

I would have done the exact same thing in any country, but in most cases you should be able to rely upon the police. Yes, I have learned from it, and my experience also serves as a warning to others to whom such a thing hasn't happened yet. I am sure you are a very wise person and no one ever needs to help you, but please do accept my apologies for being informative to others...

[chuchok]

[At the bottom are the trivial scams like a survey for the "school project"

How does this scam work?

it's got me beat too?

[The Dude]

There comes a time that you don't want to take your wife with you to buy gas for the car biggrin.gif

Absolutely, and what about taking the car to the garage to get fixed - that would be a nightmare if you couldn't converse. Or breaking down somewhere, trying to sell it etc etc etc.

I know a guy who has been here for 2 years and can't even ask directions!

Asking directions in Thailand is useless anyway so who cares? You never get an "I don't know" when asking directions in Thailand cause it's a face losing situation to say that. That results in massive runarounds and they are not diggable. Dig?

[taxexile]

If they threaten, call their bluff. Sometimes they may not be bluffing resulting in downside risks far above paying your way out. But I am comfortable with that because I can keep my dignity and self esteem.

that reminds me of the knight in a monty python film , having already had both arms and legs chopped off , still fights on .

i agree with you about sticking up for yourself when scams are attempted , and i think that the original poster , had he stood his ground longer , may have avoided paying up.

i dont know what i would have done , i wouldnt have paid up so quickly , but i wouldnt want to take a dispute like this all the way to the high court either. the thought of dealing with salivating lawyers for months on end is not very appealing.

[wiki256]

First, you would need to call your insurance to talk it off with the incident. Don't talk to them if they seem suspicious. Also, keep phone numbers of Tourist Police Station, Embassies handy while traveling.

I can't say that all Thai are good, but they are not all bad. These things happen in most developing countries.

[Neeranam]

Asking directions in Thailand is useless anyway so who cares? You never get an "I don't know" when asking directions in Thailand cause it's a face losing situation to say that. That results in massive runarounds and they are not diggable. Dig?

I used to always ask the question like, "where does the no.16/18 go?" instead of "which bus goes to .....?"

Same for driving - "does this road go to ............" when I know it doesn't. If they say, "no, it goes to ......" then I know they are telling the truth.

If you ask them in English, they are much more likely to make something up if their English is not so good and they can't explain.

speaking Thai is meaningless when living in tourist areas

Would you know?