The Farang Cultural Divide

[ABCer]

-kindly supply translations of your 'kak, mak, puk, suk, mngo und tratata' if you use them in your posts, so that the mortal ones can also understand your academic arguments;

-kindly explain,- if the same written word can have three meanings depending on the tone, how is this reflected in the written text? or do you understand the meaning by context, like in English?

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I won't comment on your attitude to the language, just that you may want to work on it if you're staying here long-term.

I just used "bai teeo puying" in another thread because it's a simple commonly used phrase here that's difficult to convey without a full explanation in English. In this case "going out on the town, often men in a group together, for the purpose of mongering".

Similarly we will use "mia noi" and "kreng jai" because English requires a full explanation of cultural issues in order to explain their meaning.

And with the tones, these aren't "the same word" but completely different words, different spelling and different pronunciation but due to your first-language interference - in this case English's not having tones - perceived as sounding similar. For regular Thais it will not have crossed their minds that these words have anything in common, since tones are as important to meaning as the phonemes they are stored as completely distinct words.

Just like their difficulty in pronouncing certain phonemes in English comes from the fact that they don't exist in their own language and have to be learned, same level of difficulty that you find mastering tones, but no one's calling you "lazy mouth".

Boosta, I cannot argue on this issue with you or any expert in Thai language. You should and do know better.

Please notice, I didn't use 'lazy mouth' but lazy articulation.

When I started learning English seriously we had different specialist teachers of Lexics, Literature, Grammar and Phonetics (yes, four !). My phonetics teacher undergone a training in England at Oxford.

It was him who used this term to emphasize the need for articulation. I never thought it to be derogative. The fact is that most Thais do suffer from lazy articulation - movements of all parts of the mouth.

This is the reason for them not clearly pronouncing most of the consonants. No offense was meant. Their articulation is geared to their language specifics.

[boosta]

It takes a long time, a lot of exposure to a language before the language part of your brain can even start to distinguish the L2 sounds missing from L1. This is just as true for L1=English and L2=Thai, if you can't passively even hear the sounds (notes, phonemes in odd sequence patterns) properly then obviously you won't be able to actively produce them.

Thais learning English from other Thais that don't pronounce properly then have these faulty patterns imprinted, much harder to unlearn/relearn than if they were learning from NES in the first place.

Take any youngish Thai, and most from any age and put them in a full-immersion environment even with a half-assed formal learning process and these things will eventually start to click.

No matter how perfect the teacher it still takes time, maybe a certain percentage quicker, but most Thais aren't learning intensively enough within Thailand to ever pronounce properly no matter how hard they try or how good their teacher is, a few hours a week just doesn't do it when you're surrounded by your own language the rest of the time.

[ABCer]

It takes a long time, a lot of exposure to a language before the language part of your brain can even start to distinguish the L2 sounds missing from L1. This is just as true for L1=English and L2=Thai, if you can't passively even hear the sounds (notes, phonemes in odd sequence patterns) properly then obviously you won't be able to actively produce them.

Thais learning English from other Thais that don't pronounce properly then have these faulty patterns imprinted, much harder to unlearn/relearn than if they were learning from NES in the first place.

Take any youngish Thai, and most from any age and put them in a full-immersion environment even with a half-assed formal learning process and these things will eventually start to click.

No matter how perfect the teacher it still takes time, maybe a certain percentage quicker, but most Thais aren't learning intensively enough within Thailand to ever pronounce properly no matter how hard they try or how good their teacher is, a few hours a week just doesn't do it when you're surrounded by your own language the rest of the time.

Yes. What you are probably talking about is any language is easiest learned at an early stage of developement (child will do better than an adult) AND the quickest way to learn lanquage is to immerse in environment where it aquires signal meaning. Agreed. This immersion is easily achieved for select groups - just send your kid over to Eaton. Or as a minimum - send your kid to an International school. Unrealistic for great majority of Thais. Result - 99% do not speak properly. Without any racial or genetic deficiencies.

BTW, there is another way of achieving this immersion effect - introduce teaching English on higher level. By this I mean teaching Maths, Physics, Chemistry in English. As far as I know - totally impossible in Thailand(?). In my country there are schools like this. Your 10 y.o. genius kid will get exactly such a treatment at Eaton. Best of luck to him. But being 100% Thai he is by no means representative of an average Thai.

Now, enough of this stuff, we are boring the audience with specifics.

Edited June 21, 2013 by ABCer

[Berkshire]

How about the foot fungus that is spread when people walk around barefoot together? When I first moved to Thailand I caught one so bad it caused a serious infection.

I apologize if it seems like I'm always harping on you Kilgore, but gee whiz. When you bring up examples like this, did you just make it up? I have never--and I mean NEVER--heard of anyone catching any sort of foot infection from walking barefoot in their homes. It's far more sanitary than walking around in a pair of shoes that has been God-knows-where all day long. Yes, I remove my shoes/sandals when I'm in my home and pretty much everyone else's home in Thailand. If you disagree with this practice, fine. But foot infection?? Dear God, man.

[boosta]

Many germaphobes created by overly sanitary cultures scaring kids growing up, fear of parasitic worms, etc

99% of foot infections only exist because of the western habit of wearing closed shoes.

[boosta]

BTW, there is another way of achieving this immersion effect - introduce teaching English on higher level. By this I mean teaching Maths, Physics, Chemistry in English. As far as I know - totally impossible in Thailand(?).

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Now, enough of this stuff, we are boring the audience with specifics.

Many schools here claim to do this, but in reality only the top most expensive school put the kids in effective contact with NES more than a few hours a week.

[Nuna]

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

Caucasian describe ethnic group by skin color, figure as well. Why it's still considered polite and formal?

Or I should feel offended when foreigners call me asian?

What country you live in? I am curios how many caucasians around the world know "farang" and use it to describe themself.

In Thailand, it is not an insult for sure. I am Thai and I use it in daily basis without bias except for some people who pretend to be smart but actually aren't. Then I would have some adjectives accompany this word.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Nuna

[pomchop]

If you want everything to be exactly the same as home then you should stay home. Part of the attraction of travel is observing different customs and cultures. Some can observe without getting all judgemental and constantly saying that "their way" is better. Others are so arrogant as to think that they and they alone have all the answers or proper beliefs/behaviors.

[boosta]

In my country it is rude to refer to white foreigners as farangs.

Actually it is considered rude to use a person's skin color to describe them, is that not the case in Australia?

Caucasian describe ethnic group by skin color, figure as well. Why it's still considered polite and formal?

Or I should feel offended when foreigners call me asian?

What country you live in? I am curios how many caucasians around the world know "farang" and use it to describe themself.

In Thailand, it is not an insult for sure. I am Thai and I use it in daily basis without bias except for some people who pretend to be smart but actually aren't. Then I would have some adjectives accompany this word.

Not sure what pomchop's referring to.

Many of the more rational experienced members here also realize that the word "farang" is not derogatory in and of itself from a language POV.

However some people act in such a way that the Thais around them do not respect them, so they may be hearing the word used in disrespectful ways.

I've had girlfriends teasingly say "Ai farang" when they're frustrated at me be stubborn not giving them what they want, just like calling me "kee neeo" or even "farang kee nok".

Also many English speakers aren't used to the Thai habit of substituting "role" words for names, and think that anyone calling them by something other than their proper name (Chris, Steve, Bob whatever) is being disrespectful.

I believe what AnotherOneAmerican meant by that - if he is actually Thai as he's claimed - is that someone calling you "farang" directly, as in "hey, you, farang", then that is disrespectful, and there I'm willing to concede it may be, in more contexts than the other uses - but it still depends on the context.

Finally very very few farang are willing to accept that Thais calling them "ooan" or "pompui" or "papa", fat or old etc are not disrespectful. . .

[sms747]

All cultures are not equal, obviously aboriginal culture or an islamic one still living in the middle ages are not the equivalent of a democratic scientifically advanced culture. Celebrate diversity by all means. but don't treat cultures as all the same, they are not.

[culicine]

My feelings toward the word 'farang' are neutral. But honestly, living in BKK these days I really have never heard it mentioned in my presence. Upcountry OK, where they rarely see farangs. Walking around Central noone ever notices me. Glad about that:)

[boosta]

You're right many of the ones our "enlightened modern" culture have wiped out, most often with the people included were in fact much superior to ours for those people in that context.

Our wonderful modern civilization has basically been the advancement of the ability to kill thousands and millions at a time, now by remote control from the middle of a desert small town on the other side of the world.

A longer lifespan and all the gadgets in the world don't add up to a hill of beans when the whole world becomes a homogenized exploitation zone, most people's lives in this modern world are far poorer and less secure than they were before the Great White Hope arrived on the horizon.