How do I sell my condominium in Bangkok?

[ccinhk]

There is no resale market for condos in this country .

Am starting to realise this but still don't totally understand...

[mheepooh papa]

There is no resale market for condos in this country .

Am starting to realise this but still don't totally understand...

Is it really so hard to sell? Like, do you even manage to get people to view your apartment?

[GAS]

You would think that the prices would eventually come down, there has to be some re-sale market here!

I want to buy a bigger place and have cash but am not buying at these current bubble prices.

[ccinhk]

There is no resale market for condos in this country .

Am starting to realise this but still don't totally understand...

Is it really so hard to sell? Like, do you even manage to get people to view your apartment?

In 6 months there's been about 5 viewings..... pathetic. Ad posted on www.prakard.com for a few weeks. Over 100 clicks but no response. Price dropped to 4.6 Mil and will probably drop it again soon.

I strongly recommend to anyone considering buying a condo in Bangkok... DON'T BUY.... JUST RENT!

Edited July 14, 2013 by ccinhk

[GAS]

Ccink, good luck, pm a link to your listing on prakard if you dont mind. My current place is in Chatuchak and so am looking in this area, but probably something larger.

EDIT: Found the listing, very close to me, but have not checked out that condo project yet. I did see some not so flattering reviews of the place on prakard...but I really like this area on Pahonyothin.

Not sure what it will take to get it sold other than blowing it out and cutting your losses. If I buy another place I plan on keeping the one I have and trying to rent it. I am in it cheap enough I should be ok.

Edited July 14, 2013 by GAS

[falkan]

location,price,brand - if you dont have that it will take time...

from the info you posted, it will take years for you to sell it..

if you buy something you buy for Living there long time or Investment, hard to get both..

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

What I can't understand is if there is a new project around the area, it always sells out before it's completed. So there must be buyers out there somewhere?? Also given my price point, location next to a mall and near universities I thought it would be ideal for the Thais.

Thais prefer to own brand new condo or houses, so second hand condos have to be a rock bottom price to be attractive to buyers.

That's also been my experience with a lot of Thais here...

They seem to have zero interest in any re-sale property, even though those often have all the needed improvements like closets and such already done.

Instead, they want to pay double for some new built empty box with most or none of the improvements done. To me, it's crazy...

But, I've had some Thais tell me they worry about ghosts from the family/people who lived in places before, whereas with new built, presumably no worry about that.

It's that kind of craziness that has always made me shy away from thinking of buying anything here that I might ever want to sell again in the future. Aside from the issue that most of us only have permission to live here one year at a time, and you never know if the visa rules might change sometime in the future.

Edited July 15, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ccinhk]

What I can't understand is if there is a new project around the area, it always sells out before it's completed. So there must be buyers out there somewhere?? Also given my price point, location next to a mall and near universities I thought it would be ideal for the Thais.

Thais prefer to own brand new condo or houses, so second hand condos have to be a rock bottom price to be attractive to buyers.

That's also been my experience with a lot of Thais here...

They seem to have zero interest in any re-sale property, even though those often have all the needed improvements like closets and such already done.

Instead, they want to pay double for some new built empty box with most or none of the improvements done. To me, it's crazy...

But, I've had some Thais tell me they worry about ghosts from the family/people who lived in places before, whereas with new built, presumably no worry about that.

It's that kind of craziness that has always made me shy away from thinking of buying anything here that I might ever want to sell again in the future. Aside from the issue that most of us only have permission to live here one year at a time, and you never know if the visa rules might change sometime in the future.

I agree this is crazy but it doesn't surprise me ....

But I wish I knew this before...

[steveromagnino]

There are a few misunderstandings in this thread. Buyers make logical decisions, just because you cannot see the logic, doesn''t mean there isn't a logic here.

Why do MANY Thais like purchasing smaller size condos new rather than 2nd hand?

1. They don't need to pay up all the cash upfront so they have the ability to save during the construction period, often there are favourable promotions etc

2. They have access to borrowing at often a higher LTV (loan to value) percentage than 2nd hand; Thai banks will often not provide as favourable mortgages to a 2nd hand property

3. Because of the way developers price (cheapest price off the plan, increased price during construction, maximum price at completion) buyers are totally aware that to purchase new off the plan is cheaper per sqm 'on average' than purchasing when completed. This also applies even when there is substantial inflation (as we have seen in the last 5 years) in pricing

4. Purchasing a building which has poor reviews on places like prakard.com is a known problem for the buyer; purchasing off the plan from the same developer, it is not known yet whether the same problems will occur

5. The fees for transfer etc are often covered by the developer along with promotional offers...which don't exist 2nd hand

6. For the investment market side (people buying to flick or people buying to rent out) all these factors push the off the plan market ahead of buying 2nd hand

7. Once selling 2nd hand, 2 years old is the same as 10 years old, so you are 'stuck in the middle' where you didn't pay prices like those of us who bought 10 years ago (e.g. I paid 29,000b per sqm) and so you are squeezed with all the drawbacks of 2nd hand without the super duper prices of anything purchased pre 2006

8. So a purchaser of 2nd hand is also aware that they will be buying and selling on the 2nd hand rather than the new market; buying off plan means you can sell roughly when the building is completed and pre transfer - once transferred that window is gone

Having said all of this, the market is changing rapidly, and GOOD buildings have no issues selling 2nd hand. I do not know this specific project, but would guess it might or might not be 'good' however there is a lot of construction in the area, so there is a lot of 2nd hand units to choose from. At a price of around 80,000b+ per sqm, that's the same price or higher as buildings like The Issara, Ideo, LPN Soi Sena (from memory), UDelight, The Room Lard Prao etc. So..my guess is you may be at the upper end of the curve and thus pricing yourself out of the market if you want a quick sale. Also, FYI the rental market for 2 bedrooms (this is actually really more like a 1 bedroom + study size right?) is not as strong as for 1 bedrooms, plus most investors will not really look at this to purchase, when they can get the upside of buying off plan as per points above, and running 3X leverage compared to your purchase where they have to pay 100%.

Foreigners often don't look at the same things Thais would. In the ad if the unit is south or north facing, that's a major plus. Yet most foreigners would buy west facing (for the nice sunset view) which is the least popular for a Thai person (or an experienced expat) who is well aware that it is way too hot. Ceiling height. etc etc.

I would strongly recommend the best places to sell are www.prakard.com www.ddproperty.com and sites that specialise in this type of the market. The ad must be in Thai or you cut off 95% of the market in this sort of area; farang centric websites are a total waste of time for this type of area, as not many developments sell to foreigners except perhaps 'brand name' developments like Supalai 10 years ago, Major Wind, etc (maybe Supalai has the most foreigners, but that's more the farang guy/Thai wife expat workers here type market with kids as the facilities are pretty good and loads of stuff for all the little look kreung brats to do like peeing in the pool and playing cricket* etc - note Supalai is also 2nd hand and around 50,000+b per sqm so more like 3m probably for a unit your size). Agents at this end of the market, also 'not so useful' - 3% is however quite standard as a rate.

Any chance you can send a link to me via PM of the ad? I might personally be interested....at the right price. To rent out.

*Thai look kreung bratty kid version of cricket = get two crickets and make them fight on the grass. Somewhat different to 'ashes' version of cricket.

Edited July 16, 2013 by steveromagnino

[GAS]

Very thoughtful post Steve, your insights are spot on imo.

I really think a place like this to rent out does not pencil unless it is close to a million Baht no?

You would obviously market to Thais working at SCB Park or similar. My place is nearly right across the road and before I bought it from my GF's friend we rented it for just under 5K a month. Paid around 28,000b per sqm late last year. Can you get more than 8-10k a month from a 50sqm place in Chatuchak? Even a newer one?

[Billy The Kid]

In Thailand, Easy to buy hard to sell.. You have to accept that you have to sell less of what you have bought. if you want a quick sale.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Billy The Kid

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I also think Steve's post listed a lot of excellent and correct points... But aside from economics, there also is a factor of Thai beliefs...

They believe in ghosts and spirits, and think that people who have lived there before might still have some presence in their (resold) home.

The way they can know that there's been no bad karma (or whatever the Thais call it) in their home is to start fresh from scratch.

I had a GF once (and not a BG) with whom I was planning a trip to Phuket... And I had found a very nice hotel along the beach for us to stay. And she absolutely refused to agree for us to stay there... I kept asking why... why.... And finally, she fessed up and said, she knew that some people had died thereabouts in the Phuket Tsunami...and she didn't want to stay where people had been killed because of their ghosts.

[Billy The Kid]

I also think Steve's post listed a lot of excellent and correct points... But aside from economics, there also is a factor of Thai beliefs...

They believe in ghosts and spirits, and think that people who have lived there before might still have some presence in their (resold) home.

The way they can know that there's been no bad karma (or whatever the Thais call it) in their home is to start fresh from scratch.

I had a GF once (and not a BG) with whom I was planning a trip to Phuket... And I had found a very nice hotel along the beach for us to stay. And she absolutely refused to agree for us to stay there... I kept asking why... why.... And finally, she fessed up and said, she knew that some people had died thereabouts in the Phuket Tsunami...and she didn't want to stay where people had been killed because of their ghosts.

So True !!! Many Thais refused to move in where there was a person who died in there. Many said to me they are terrified of ghost. I used to live in a condo where the falang died before, when i told the Thai girl (Yes a BG ,lol) She quickly left the condo.

[steveromagnino]

I might get rid of my family next time by claiming ghosts....sadly I don't think they buy into all that though 55555555.

28k per sqm is a really nice price, where is that, presumably not Sarin Place, but on the opposite corner, Rachyothin Park or somewhere like that? I quite like Sarin Place, decent prices; for 5m there you would be looking at around 100sqm (from memory).

To the OP, I don't think that you need to go that low per sqm to sell however. But I would not benchmark against the other units of the same time for sale; someone in my building is attempting to sell at 70,000b per sqm (older building) and someone in the building opposite wants 80,000b. 10% lower than these won't sell. 20% lower than these won't sell. Because anyone wanting to buy knows full well that where I live (maybe 4km away from Rachayothin closer to MorChit) was selling for 30-40,000b 5 years ago, no one wants to be the mug paying double that now. 45,000b I would guess is the realistic max in my 12 year old building; whereas Ideo and Issara are around 70,000-85,000 just by virtue of newness and access to financing etc etc along with better facilities.

Anything around 70k per sqm and up is 'getting on the high end' for the area. M Lardprao is higher again, and the other Major Dvt project whose name escapes me next to JJ Park is higher again (well over 100k per sqm for an art deco looking monstrosity) but those are awesome view type places closer to Central Lard Prao and the prices taper off quite chronically currently heading further north; no doubt as soon as the skytrain goes in that will all change. Until then....loads of new projects and chronic traffic. Not impossible to sell by any means, but you need patience. Check out www.thinkofliving.com and you will see there is a lot of research on new developments now.

For rental, the market is moving upwards, slowly, if you can nail a decent tenant they will pay (at a guess) something like 12-15k a month partially furnished (you can check this on ddproperty.com or prakard.com to see if it is reasonable); obviously this is hard to stack up on straight rental yield alone but once the skytrain goes in there will be pain, then pleasure. Also the Suzuki Avenue or whatever that Siam Future development on the corner is called helps too. As does Rao which is just up a little further;-) Renting furnished is where it is at. Selling the unit, any furniture I and many buyers would attach a value of zero to it as I would biff it all. Different mindset.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I might get rid of my family next time by claiming ghosts....sadly I don't think they buy into all that though 55555555.

Actually, as you well know, usually it works the other way around...

The Thai family makes YOU the ghost en route to making you disappear!

[ccinhk]

There are a few misunderstandings in this thread. Buyers make logical decisions, just because you cannot see the logic, doesn''t mean there isn't a logic here.

Why do MANY Thais like purchasing smaller size condos new rather than 2nd hand?

1. They don't need to pay up all the cash upfront so they have the ability to save during the construction period, often there are favourable promotions etc

2. They have access to borrowing at often a higher LTV (loan to value) percentage than 2nd hand; Thai banks will often not provide as favourable mortgages to a 2nd hand property

3. Because of the way developers price (cheapest price off the plan, increased price during construction, maximum price at completion) buyers are totally aware that to purchase new off the plan is cheaper per sqm 'on average' than purchasing when completed. This also applies even when there is substantial inflation (as we have seen in the last 5 years) in pricing

4. Purchasing a building which has poor reviews on places like prakard.com is a known problem for the buyer; purchasing off the plan from the same developer, it is not known yet whether the same problems will occur

5. The fees for transfer etc are often covered by the developer along with promotional offers...which don't exist 2nd hand

6. For the investment market side (people buying to flick or people buying to rent out) all these factors push the off the plan market ahead of buying 2nd hand

7. Once selling 2nd hand, 2 years old is the same as 10 years old, so you are 'stuck in the middle' where you didn't pay prices like those of us who bought 10 years ago (e.g. I paid 29,000b per sqm) and so you are squeezed with all the drawbacks of 2nd hand without the super duper prices of anything purchased pre 2006

8. So a purchaser of 2nd hand is also aware that they will be buying and selling on the 2nd hand rather than the new market; buying off plan means you can sell roughly when the building is completed and pre transfer - once transferred that window is gone

Having said all of this, the market is changing rapidly, and GOOD buildings have no issues selling 2nd hand. I do not know this specific project, but would guess it might or might not be 'good' however there is a lot of construction in the area, so there is a lot of 2nd hand units to choose from. At a price of around 80,000b+ per sqm, that's the same price or higher as buildings like The Issara, Ideo, LPN Soi Sena (from memory), UDelight, The Room Lard Prao etc. So..my guess is you may be at the upper end of the curve and thus pricing yourself out of the market if you want a quick sale. Also, FYI the rental market for 2 bedrooms (this is actually really more like a 1 bedroom + study size right?) is not as strong as for 1 bedrooms, plus most investors will not really look at this to purchase, when they can get the upside of buying off plan as per points above, and running 3X leverage compared to your purchase where they have to pay 100%.

Foreigners often don't look at the same things Thais would. In the ad if the unit is south or north facing, that's a major plus. Yet most foreigners would buy west facing (for the nice sunset view) which is the least popular for a Thai person (or an experienced expat) who is well aware that it is way too hot. Ceiling height. etc etc.

I would strongly recommend the best places to sell are www.prakard.com www.ddproperty.com and sites that specialise in this type of the market. The ad must be in Thai or you cut off 95% of the market in this sort of area; farang centric websites are a total waste of time for this type of area, as not many developments sell to foreigners except perhaps 'brand name' developments like Supalai 10 years ago, Major Wind, etc (maybe Supalai has the most foreigners, but that's more the farang guy/Thai wife expat workers here type market with kids as the facilities are pretty good and loads of stuff for all the little look kreung brats to do like peeing in the pool and playing cricket* etc - note Supalai is also 2nd hand and around 50,000+b per sqm so more like 3m probably for a unit your size). Agents at this end of the market, also 'not so useful' - 3% is however quite standard as a rate.

Any chance you can send a link to me via PM of the ad? I might personally be interested....at the right price. To rent out.

*Thai look kreung bratty kid version of cricket = get two crickets and make them fight on the grass. Somewhat different to 'ashes' version of cricket.

Thank you for the detailed and most useful response.

I personally liked the location because it's right next to the Major Ratchayothin shopping mall and the future site of the new BTS line. If I stayed in Asia (I'm moved back to Canada) I would have kept it. The telephone number on the ad is a Thai friend who is helping me manage the sale.

http://www.prakard.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=725590

[steveromagnino]

If I can make a suggestion, your ad needs to look a lot more like this:

http://www.prakard.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=614916

it needs pictures, clear explanation of what is included and what is not included (aircon, wall paper, furniture, wardrobe, kitchen, hotwater, etc) and it needs to be bilingual at least; most readers of prakard are Thai and in that location, want to read Thai, not English.

Have a play around, see how you get on. the one above is 100k per sqm, so you are obviously not the highest priced; most of the units in this development 2nd hand seem around the 80k+ mark, I have to confess to not knowing the specific development but would say that you may just need to actually focus on putting together a decent ad, then wait.

[steveromagnino]

If I can make a suggestion, your ad needs to look a lot more like this:

http://www.prakard.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=614916

it needs pictures, clear explanation of what is included and what is not included (aircon, wall paper, furniture, wardrobe, kitchen, hotwater, etc) and it needs to be bilingual at least; most readers of prakard are Thai and in that location, want to read Thai, not English.

Have a play around, see how you get on. the one above is 100k per sqm, so you are obviously not the highest priced; most of the units in this development 2nd hand seem around the 80k+ mark, I have to confess to not knowing the specific development but would say that you may just need to actually focus on putting together a decent ad, then wait.

[steveromagnino]

If I can make a suggestion, your ad needs to look a lot more like this:

http://www.prakard.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=614916

it needs pictures, clear explanation of what is included and what is not included (aircon, wall paper, furniture, wardrobe, kitchen, hotwater, etc) and it needs to be bilingual at least; most readers of prakard are Thai and in that location, want to read Thai, not English.

Have a play around, see how you get on. the one above is 100k per sqm, so you are obviously not the highest priced; most of the units in this development 2nd hand seem around the 80k+ mark, I have to confess to not knowing the specific development but would say that you may just need to actually focus on putting together a decent ad, then wait.

[steveromagnino]

If I can make a suggestion, your ad needs to look a lot more like this:

http://www.prakard.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=614916

it needs pictures, clear explanation of what is included and what is not included (aircon, wall paper, furniture, wardrobe, kitchen, hotwater, etc) and it needs to be bilingual at least; most readers of prakard are Thai and in that location, want to read Thai, not English.

Have a play around, see how you get on. the one above is 100k per sqm, so you are obviously not the highest priced; most of the units in this development 2nd hand seem around the 80k+ mark, I have to confess to not knowing the specific development but would say that you may just need to actually focus on putting together a decent ad, then wait.

[bobthomas]

Actually I can't cope with the downpayment that's why I don't want to get loan as well. But paying monthly is alright for me. Coz it will take quite awhile to save up that sum.

But nobody will sell you a second hand unit with no security if you are a foreigner. Your only option is to rent.

not really- Lots of people are willing to do a rent option. You agree on a selling price and pay a monthly payment for a fixed period (usually 1-3 years), then at the end of the contract you either pay the ballon payment (remainder owed on the property), re-negotiate for more time, or simply walk away with no obligation to buy. I have see a few people do this and it seemms benificial to all parties.

[bobthomas]

I think you have two problems....50 sq meter 2 bedroom 2 bath condo is the size of a postage stamp!(I have bedrooms larger than your whole condo) Also your condo is out by Chatuchak (not Bangkok central). I have a 300 sq meter townhouse (actually two converted to one large one) in Prawet near the new airport that I paid 3.5 million baht a few years back.....wish I could sell it for the same price I paid ( 12,000 baht/sq meter) Easy to buy property ....not so easy to sell!...Good luck .....best thing for you to do is reduce price. Good luck

I have to agree here. 50 Sq. Meters is pretty small for a 2 bedroom. 45 Sq. Meters with a nice balcony is just right for a comfortable studio apt. and actually, the location is a quite a bit farther than Chatuchat- and the traffic can get pretty bad. For 100,000 K Baht/sq Meter I would expect to be downtown. All that said, there are buyers out there, but you have to cultivate them much the same way that the developers do. All the condos I sold were sold to my friends or aquantances. I also don't think its makes sense to compare a Townhouse to a condo. They are 2 different animals.

[whatthai]

Guys, for the last time please repeat after me : there is abosolutly no <deleted> condo resale market in Thailand.

Dig it ?

[RAZZELL]

Guys, for the last time please repeat after me : there is abosolutly no <deleted> condo resale market in Thailand.

Dig it ?

Apart from the prime ones that sell

RAZZ

[CHRISTIANa9]

Any updates from op

.

[isawasnake]

I don't agree there is no resale market. I personally think once you get over a certain threshold price (perhaps something around 2 million), you are losing such a huge portion of your market. 2 million and under if you want a quick and easy resell.

[kamanta]

(I have a buyer already)

Please can someone tell me the transfer of ownership process steps or requirements?

[CHRISTIANa9]

Lets see. If a condo launch at 4m. A good starting price to offer would be 2M? At completion.

[kingalfred]

Im looking to buy a condo in bkk around 2.5million any sellers pm me

[bocceball1]

(I have a buyer already)

Please can someone tell me the transfer of ownership process steps or requirements?

When you bought .....don't you remember the steps?????

1. Find the land office where the property is 2. Meet the buyer there 3. Get his money 4. sign the chanote

Good luck if you have to ask on here.