Slavery on Thai fishing boats is straight from the 18th century

[Docno]

Anyone surprised about this "Buddhist" nation?

Hey, intellectual, what does Buddhism has to do with the subject?

Please don't tell me that you are from Alberta.

Let me guess you profess to be Buddhist ?...but yet you insult the person making the original comment...ergo you are no different then than the OP...

Since when has being from Alberta been a shortcoming or insult? One of my best friends is from there. Now Manitoba is another matter entirely :-)

[Docno]

As I see it, part of the problem here is that the Americans (I mean the gov't, not the people) are sitting in judgement of other nations when their own hands are far from clean. The issue of foreign worker abuse and even slavery is critically important and needs to be dealt with firmly and quickly wherever it exists. A report like this coming from the UNHRC would be more palatable and more acceptable to other governments. But the US has failed to shut down the Guantanamo Bay facility and continues to kill innocent foreign civilians in drone strikes against terrorist targets, so the report comes across as hypocritical and self-serving. Glass houses, stones, and all that....

[bipper]

Slavery and torture? Well its obvious two wrongs don't make anything right but a little perspective please. Murder, human abuse and torture. Basic human rights and respect for the 1st amendment in regard to journalism.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that one should put ones own house in order before waving the human rights flag! Two words when one could write a book on it! "Guantanimo Bay".

[Thai at Heart]

Imposition of Puritan morality
The other thing that bothers me is that you see this statement repeatedly in the report (across countries), this year and in past years: "The government did not make an effort to reduce the demand for
commercial sex acts during the year."

First of all, it's not clear to me how a government can reduce demand for commercial sex (rather than supply). Second, what gives the Americans the right to condemn 'commercial sex' between two free and consenting persons?? Absolutely ridiculous...

The way to reduce demand is to impose severe penalties on the purchaser. In the US some local jurisdictions publish names and sometimes even pictures. If you are living in an area that takes those steps, you may decide to not use commercial sex.

But, I completely agree that sex, free or paid, between two consenting adults should not be controlled by any government agency.

Everyone, including Americans, have the right to their opinion. And, it is not only Americans who condem commercial sex. Why are you so irritated that other people have different morals than you? Aren't you, in fact, imposing your own moral outlook by condeming Americans?

I am condemning the American government (not the American people) for telling other countries that they need to accept American morality that criminalizes consensual activities between parties in which no-one is hurt. No I am clearly not trying to impose my moral outlook on them. The difference is plain: I'm not telling the American government how to run its country and what activities should be criminalised. I am simply saying that they have no right to tell us (other countries) what consensual non-harmful activities we need to ban. The imposition of morality is flowing in one direction only...

The buyer has the right to ask that the supplier at least complies with the suppliers own country's laws, doesn't he?

Is forced labour legal in Thailand? Not the last time I looked. The labour law in Thailand is fairly easy to interpret, so to comply if you own a fishing boat shouldn't be to confusing.

They even write it in Thai so the locals can read it.

Yes - you are right insofar as 'slavery' on fishing boats is concerned. However, if you look at the exchange here, I was not talking about that aspect of the report. I was talking about the report's demand that countries eliminate the demand for 'commercial sex' (in general). I live in a country (Singapore) where commercial sex is legal and well-regulated, but the Americans condemn Singapore (and many other nations) for not dealing with the demand for commercial sex. That's what I object to. They are within their right to say that, within their own borders, they will not tolerate the exchange of sex for money between two freely consenting adults; but I ask again, what right do they have to impose this morality on other countries for activities in which people participate freely and no-one is harmed.

Logically, wouldn't it be better for a government to act on the supply of commercial sex than the demand? What are they expected to do? Men have been chasing totty for thousands of years. It's like the government can switch off libido.

I think there should be a lot more assistance for anyone trafficked into that industry to get out, but yes a lot are there willingly. There are however, some horrendous abuses going on, and it's a bit naive to believe that woman in that industry is there completely freely. By the way, I read the article, and I can't see where there is any mention of the prostitution industry. Edited June 24, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[Docno]

Logically, wouldn't it be better for a government to act on the supply of commercial sex than the demand? What are they expected to do? Men have been chasing totty for thousands of years. It's like the government can switch off libido.

I think there should be a lot more assistance for anyone trafficked into that industry to get out, but yes a lot are there willingly. There are however, some horrendous abuses going on, and it's a bit naive to believe that woman in that industry is there completely freely. By the way, I read the article, and I can't see where there is any mention of the prostitution industry.

Re prostitution, you have to look at the report itself... this is a yearly issue where I live in Singapore.

[Robby nz]

It would seem there are a few of the posters here who have actually seen a Thai fishing boat of the larger wooden type.

Me I spent many years in the fishing industry in my own country as a boat owner so I am very interested in seeing how things are done here.

I go look at boats and the fish they are landing as often as possible.

The crews on the boats do work and live in what I would call terrible conditions but I very much doubt it can be called slavery.

They of course are not the only ones in this country who work and live in terrible conditions, probably for little return.

The workers on building sites are a good example, go have a look around sometime and you will see the shacks they have put up for them and their families.

Oh, and as for Thai farmed shrimp the great US who is so concerned for the welfare of others has just seen fit to slap a 60%+ tariff on that, shrimp farmers, who cares about them just buy our pork.

[lovetotravel]

It would seem there are a few of the posters here who have actually seen a Thai fishing boat of the larger wooden type.

Me I spent many years in the fishing industry in my own country as a boat owner so I am very interested in seeing how things are done here.

I go look at boats and the fish they are landing as often as possible.

The crews on the boats do work and live in what I would call terrible conditions but I very much doubt it can be called slavery.

They of course are not the only ones in this country who work and live in terrible conditions, probably for little return.

The workers on building sites are a good example, go have a look around sometime and you will see the shacks they have put up for them and their families.

Oh, and as for Thai farmed shrimp the great US who is so concerned for the welfare of others has just seen fit to slap a 60%+ tariff on that, shrimp farmers, who cares about them just buy our pork.

Do you know the tarriffs Thailand slaps on the US for booze, electronics, cars, etc? It should be same same for what they send to the rest of the world.

[theajarn]

Should have been sooner than later.

[123thaibourbon]

adrift in Bkk, do sweatshops still exist where very young children forcibly craft/repair jewelry? saw firsthand in late 80's. justification was they are poor, better than begging in streets & small hands lend itself to this 'work'. my guess, not much has changed for them. buyers & tourists do not care. same children graduate to gogo bars, labor prisons & these cursed fishing boats along w/ displaced refugees...

[ableguy]

Anyone surprised about this "Buddhist" nation?

whats your point of bringing religion to it? need no to beat around the bush

Maybe PaullyW was referring to this:

Succinctly put, Buddhism enunciates the end of suffering (Dukkha) through the elimination of ignorance (avidya) and the elimination of craving (tanha), and thus the attainment of the cessation of all suffering, known as the sublime state of nirvana.

Silaor Ethical conduct, is part of the umbrella/concept Four Noble Truths.

Obviously, Ethical Conduct, pertains wholly to the subject of slavery, not to mention corruption and Xenophobia.

Thailand "officially" abolished slavery in 1912 but, as history shows, the former slaves, still remained under the "care" of the masters. This gave way to the Thai phrase of Khon Chai: servant. But not a servant in the modern social notion of work for pay. Khon Chai was someone who would do anything the master ordered.

Before reacting emotionally to pointed comments, it would behoove all of us to do research and document our opinions.

Such behavior will lead to Samwag Wayama samma vayama: the making of an effort to improve.

See chart below, please!

Ethical conduct (Sanskrit: śīla, Pāli: sīla)

3. Right speech samyag vāc,sammā vāca Speaking in a truthful and non-hurtful way

4. Right action samyag karman, sammā kammanta Acting in a non-harmful way

5. Right livelihood samyag ājīvana, sammā ājīva A non-harmful livelihood

God give me a break pleaseeeeeee

[rbrooks]

It's a problem which should be addressed ASAP but America should probably impose sanctions on itself too with about about 18,000 people trafficked to the U.S. each year, according to the State Department..

http://www.wgbhnews.org/post/human-trafficking-modern-day-slavery-america

Key word, trafficked to the U.S. each year from foreign sources usually Asian(Thai, Chinese) and Mexican. We have government organizations that really do hammer the bad guys and send them back to their country or if U.S. citizen, some prison time unlike other countries where they can pay it off depending on their status and payroll like Thailand. Thailand's blatant use of forced slavery in their fishing fleets is disgusting and it is about time they pay the price for their actions.

Edited June 24, 2013 by rbrooks

[rbrooks]

u,s should take its head out of its ass,and actually do something just hot air again,,maybe buying those helicopters may help keep them quiet,,,if obama,could take the lead on this i would be most impressed,,ban the imports it would change instantly,,,,maybe im pi-ssing in the wind

The US takes this very seriously. Read this and the consequences it's had. It's a tough problem to solve:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-06-17/local/35462377_1_illegal-immigrants-poultry-workers-alabama-law

Also, didn't the US have a civil war to stop slavery? If this is discovered by the authorities in the US, something is done about it. Here, you just have to pay off the police or local politician. Big difference.

I hope a ban happens. It's probably the only way something will be done about this. It's absolutely disgusting how these poor people are treated.

u,s should take its head out of its ass,and actually do something just hot air again,,maybe buying those helicopters may help keep them quiet,,,if obama,could take the lead on this i would be most impressed,,ban the imports it would change instantly,,,,maybe im pi-ssing in the wind

The US takes this very seriously. Read this and the consequences it's had. It's a tough problem to solve:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-06-17/local/35462377_1_illegal-immigrants-poultry-workers-alabama-law

Also, didn't the US have a civil war to stop slavery? If this is discovered by the authorities in the US, something is done about it. Here, you just have to pay off the police or local politician. Big difference.

I hope a ban happens. It's probably the only way something will be done about this. It's absolutely disgusting how these poor people are treated.

Exactly right as I said in this post, we do prosecute, imprison or send these animals who deal in human slaves, back to their lovely countries instead of like Thailand or Mexico where imprisonment and fines are solely based on your status and bankroll. We have a big problem with these thugs because they know they can make more money here than back in their corrupt country.

Edited June 24, 2013 by rbrooks

[bigbamboo]

I have a neighbour who was a fisherman 10 years ago on a 10 foot boat with a crew of 60 people. The problems on board was mainly that the crew was divided in gangs from Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Vietnam and Burma.

About once a month somebody disappeared in the night, dumped overboard by rivals as revenge for the last guy who disappeared. Or because of a stupid quarrel.

My neighbour tells me that this was the reason fishermen were found washed up ashore tortured and killed. Not because the captain was a slave master, he had too big a crew to maintain any kind of order.

It may be different now if the thai fishing fleet has newer boats with more equipment and smaller crews. But I doubt it.

Where was he fishing ?...Gulf of Thailand ?...if he was one suspects he is giving you a fisherman's tale, I have worked the Gulf of Thailand for over 10 years and see fishing boats every day, and have yet to see one 10 foot long, never mind with 60 people on it...so I am calling BS on this story or you have misunderstood what he told you..

"gangs" on-board...LOL...think he is winding you up....if the master cant keep control of his crew due to having "gangs" on-board....it would be the master swimming with the fish..

Are bodies from suspected "slave" fishermen found in the Gulf, most certainly,...at least 1 or 2 a year based on the reports I have seen, and some even have bullet holes in them..

but do

Maybe they had to walk the plank?

[lee b]

only at sea? yeah right !

[rubl]

... and only three months ago all was still peachy rozy. Thailand surely to be put off a greylist or whatever, public announcements on 'we will tackle corruption', a few names of money launderers and terrorists published, Rohinya taken care of and now this.

Those pesky farang again. When will they finally understand Thainess and the cultural value of the Thai way of doing business ?

[oldsailor35]

And ofcourse all the upset and selfrightious posters here will stop buying and eating seafood??

Or not?

You obviously did'nt read things too well.........................The sea food that is being talked about is exported , most sea food consumed in Thailand is farm produced

[oldsailor35]

One in six pounds of seafood in America is imported from Thailand.

Possibly, but isn't the majority of this famed freshwater shrimp?

Yes and the farmed Bassa (Catfish)

[oldsailor35]

Imposition of Puritan morality

The other thing that bothers me is that you see this statement repeatedly in the report (across countries), this year and in past years: "The government did not make an effort to reduce the demand for

commercial sex acts during the year."

First of all, it's not clear to me how a government can reduce demand for commercial sex (rather than supply). Second, what gives the Americans the right to condemn 'commercial sex' between two free and consenting persons?? Absolutely ridiculous...

The way to reduce demand is to impose severe penalties on the purchaser. In the US some local jurisdictions publish names and sometimes even pictures. If you are living in an area that takes those steps, you may decide to not use commercial sex.

But, I completely agree that sex, free or paid, between two consenting adults should not be controlled by any government agency.

Everyone, including Americans, have the right to their opinion. And, it is not only Americans who condem commercial sex. Why are you so irritated that other people have different morals than you? Aren't you, in fact, imposing your own moral outlook by condeming Americans?

I am condemning the American government (not the American people) for telling other countries that they need to accept American morality that criminalizes consensual activities between parties in which no-one is hurt. No I am clearly not trying to impose my moral outlook on them. The difference is plain: I'm not telling the American government how to run its country and what activities should be criminalised. I am simply saying that they have no right to tell us (other countries) what consensual non-harmful activities we need to ban. The imposition of morality is flowing in one direction only...

But i guess you condone the use of slave labour on these fishing boats, because it is happening in Thailand, and you are Thai, mai pen lai.

[hellodolly]

Are they the same as Thailand with their words?

thailand rarely tells other countries how to behave. USA says: slavery is bad, and employs 100.000 of mexican "slaves". USA says: war is bad, and some of the most vicious wars in last 40 years were started by USA. USA says: atomic bombs are bad, and USA were the only nation to have ever used them as weapon. USA says: torture is bad, and ... sure u get my point right ?

Are you sayintg when the US speaks you better snap to attention.

[hellodolly]

i feel for those poor fishermen, to be lured onto the boats then abused, to a lessor degree its a bit like being a tourist or expat here, the lure of the girls, touristy destinations etc and then becoming the victim of extortion and corruption, sure we can stand there and be slapped in the face from a thai brandishing a gun, or set upon by blood thirsty gang of thai men, or lose your money thru the unethical and the corrupt, but at least we can say no more and leave, these men probably get threatened with becoming fish bait

Ummm... maybe you're being facetious and my humour-detector is broken today. But on the off chance that you're being serious, i am quite sure that what the 'enslaved' fishermen experience cannot not be at all compared to expats/tourists face here.

I wish he would say where he hangs around. I would put that on the top of my list of places I don't want to go to.

[oldsailor35]

I have a neighbour who was a fisherman 10 years ago on a 10 foot boat with a crew of 60 people. The problems on board was mainly that the crew was divided in gangs from Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Vietnam and Burma.

About once a month somebody disappeared in the night, dumped overboard by rivals as revenge for the last guy who disappeared. Or because of a stupid quarrel.

My neighbour tells me that this was the reason fishermen were found washed up ashore tortured and killed. Not because the captain was a slave master, he had too big a crew to maintain any kind of order.

It may be different now if the thai fishing fleet has newer boats with more equipment and smaller crews. But I doubt it.

A ten foot boat with 60 people aboard.....six people per running foot....just how wide was that boat, anyway?

OK this might be a bit over the top, but believe me, these boats are like ant hills with bodies hopping around everywhere. If they were genuine there would'nt be so many crew on board. This does not happen on fishing boats from British and European boats, which fish in far more dangerous waters. My son was a skipper on an 80ft boat in the Bass Straight with a crew of 5.

[oldsailor35]

I have a neighbour who was a fisherman 10 years ago on a 10 foot boat with a crew of 60 people. The problems on board was mainly that the crew was divided in gangs from Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Vietnam and Burma.

About once a month somebody disappeared in the night, dumped overboard by rivals as revenge for the last guy who disappeared. Or because of a stupid quarrel.

My neighbour tells me that this was the reason fishermen were found washed up ashore tortured and killed. Not because the captain was a slave master, he had too big a crew to maintain any kind of order.

It may be different now if the thai fishing fleet has newer boats with more equipment and smaller crews. But I doubt it.

Where was he fishing ?...Gulf of Thailand ?...if he was one suspects he is giving you a fisherman's tale, I have worked the Gulf of Thailand for over 10 years and see fishing boats every day, and have yet to see one 10 foot long, never mind with 60 people on it...so I am calling BS on this story or you have misunderstood what he told you..

"gangs" on-board...LOL...think he is winding you up....if the master cant keep control of his crew due to having "gangs" on-board....it would be the master swimming with the fish..

Are bodies from suspected "slave" fishermen found in the Gulf, most certainly,...at least 1 or 2 a year based on the reports I have seen, and some even have bullet holes in them..

but do

I suspect he means 10 meters.

I can remember going back 7 years or so, a commercial wooden fishing boat anchored very close to Koh Tao and the captain went ashore to get drunk. Shots rang out in the early morning and it transpired one of the Burmese crew had taken the captain's gun and shot the 4 Thais that were operating the boat.

I see these boats on a daily basis, and often do a head count as its amusing how many crew are on these trawlers. Average is about 25 crew on a standard 20 meter trawler. Its labor intensive for them to sort the catch into baskets. FWIW the crew on these boats are usually smiling and waving and seem happy enough.

Even at 10 meter, 30 foot...60 people on-board....dont think so, where would they keep the fishing tackle then ?....also think about it 60 people, average weight 60kg = 3.6 metric tons of addtional weight on a wooden hulled vessel..

20 meter vessel with 25 crew sounds far more realistic

Have you seen the height of some of these boats ?

[vijer]

And ofcourse all the upset and selfrightious posters here will stop buying and eating seafood??

Or not?

I only eat seafood when forced to. So almost never, but this gives me a greater reason to avoid it.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[dighambara]

Anyone surprised about this "Buddhist" nation?

If you hate Thailand so much, please leave and don't discuss it any more.

It's a problem which should be addressed ASAP but America should probably impose sanctions on itself too with about about 18,000 people trafficked to the U.S. each year, according to the State Department..

http://www.wgbhnews.org/post/human-trafficking-modern-day-slavery-america

Yes, it is a problem, but the trafficking is typically done by their own people; Thais trafficing Thai women, Chinese trafficing slave labor, Mexican drug cartel using human 'mules' to carry drugs or in houses of protitution.

I have been to Juarez and Tijuana to name a couple and I have seen what the 'slaves' are forced into by their own people.

[Soutpeel]

Have you seen the height of some of these boats ?

Heights of boats ?...not quite sure what you mean ?

[monkey4u]

Arrrrgh, rum , sodomy, and the lash. Where can I sign up?

you forgot to add plundering and pillaging shiver my booty