Help needed with one question about UK frozen state pension.

[Keith5588]

Hi, I would love to know the answer to this.

 

The amounts I use are not meant to be exact.

Personally I think freezing the UK pension depending upon which country you decide to live is wrong but for this post I don’t want a big discussion about whether you should inform the DWP or not.

The UK state pension is now classed as a benefit and so you should inform the DWP where you are living by law.

So I am assuming that you totally inform the DWP everything.    I am not prepared at the moment to contact the DWP directly.

 

I will use an example.

A 75 year old UK male started his UK state 10 years ago in 2014 receiving £100 per week and came to Thailand. His pension was frozen and so he is still receiving £100 per week.

If he lived in the UK, the Philippines or other countries that have an agreement so that the UK pension is not frozen he would now be receiving £200 pw.

The man goes to the Philippines and immediately informs the DWP that he is there. His pension is increased to £200 pw. 185 days later he returns to Thailand and stays in Thailand for future years.

 

A Youtuber and some other people has said that this mans UK state pension will remain at £200 pw for future years.

 

I disagree, after this man returns to Thailand I think that his UK state pension will revert to the original frozen level of £100 pw. Maybe it will stay at £200 pw until the end of the UK fiscal year and then revert back to the original frozen level of £100 pw but that is irrelevant for this discussion.

 

I am only basing what I think on reading different forums in the past, there has been a lot of discussion, partitions, lobbying in the House of Commons etc.

There must be many UK elderly expats who have been living in Thailand and receiving a frozen UK state pension for 10 years or more. If these people could spend 185 days in the Philippines or the UK to permanently change their UK state pension to the current larger amount when they return to live in Thailand they would be very silly not to do so if they can. I have never read of anyone doing this.

Also for me and many others the frozen pension would not be much of a problem if after some large pension increases like the last few years you can receive these increases by taking a 185 day holiday to the Philippines!

 

So the question is:-

In the future, let’s say 3 years from now is this man’s UK state pension £100 pw or £200 pw

[DaLa]

I don't honestly know, How about having a 'trusted' friend in the Philippines use your debit card there once or twice a month. Set a limit and maybe that will fix the inequality that the system promotes.

[oxo1947]

I don't want to take it off subject --but does anyone know how the  Philippines got this agreement with the UK--it couldn't have been about pensions as PI doesn't have one--& it wasn't about health care. It seems that if the Thai government had any sense, they would look at getting the same agreement as then a large part of  their ex-pat community here would be putting a lot more money back into Thailand.

[treetops]

4 hours ago, oxo1947 said:

I don't want to take it off subject --but does anyone know how the  Philippines got this agreement with the UK--it couldn't have been about pensions as PI doesn't have one--& it wasn't about health care.

 

Can't vouch for it being true, but I read that the agreement with the Philippines was to keep the flow of healthcare staff from there to the UK sweet as the UK system would collapse without them.

[oxo1947]

50 minutes ago, treetops said:

Can't vouch for it being true, but I read that the agreement with the Philippines was to keep the flow of healthcare staff from there to the UK sweet as the UK system would collapse without them.

I dont think so treetops---as they have to pay them the same as current nurses --they would head their anyway---as UK is always advertising for foreign care/Nurse ---and the UK lose most of their nurses to Oz NZ etc with a much higher pay rate....... 

When you look at the countries UK would pay full pension in-- there seems to be no consistency---Chile,  Israel, South Korea, Japan,Mauritius,Turkey.....a whole other list -- you expect the EU & commonwealth countries but there is a lot of others and it just says UK has an agreement with--doesn't say what sort of agreement--but you would think someone in the Thai government might be cute enough to find out. ......yer maybe not......

[treetops]

1 minute ago, oxo1947 said:

I dont think so treetops---as they have to pay them the same as current nurses --they would head their anyway---as UK is always advertising for foreign care/Nurse

 

But they would be less likely to head there without the agreement perhaps, if they are thinking of provision for their retirement years?

[oxo1947]

45 minutes ago, treetops said:

But they would be less likely to head there without the agreement perhaps, if they are thinking of provision for their retirement years?

No..I just wondered what is the Agreement these countries have that allows them to keep their pension current. I looked up the nurse thing---they have agents all over PI which will get you to the UK if your certificate are in line with what they want.

[hotandsticky]

8 hours ago, Keith5588 said:

Hi, I would love to know the answer to this.

 

The amounts I use are not meant to be exact.

Personally I think freezing the UK pension depending upon which country you decide to live is wrong but for this post I don’t want a big discussion about whether you should inform the DWP or not.

The UK state pension is now classed as a benefit and so you should inform the DWP where you are living by law.

So I am assuming that you totally inform the DWP everything.    I am not prepared at the moment to contact the DWP directly.

 

I will use an example.

A 75 year old UK male started his UK state 10 years ago in 2014 receiving £100 per week and came to Thailand. His pension was frozen and so he is still receiving £100 per week.

If he lived in the UK, the Philippines or other countries that have an agreement so that the UK pension is not frozen he would now be receiving £200 pw.

The man goes to the Philippines and immediately informs the DWP that he is there. His pension is increased to £200 pw. 185 days later he returns to Thailand and stays in Thailand for future years.

 

A Youtuber and some other people has said that this mans UK state pension will remain at £200 pw for future years.

 

I disagree, after this man returns to Thailand I think that his UK state pension will revert to the original frozen level of £100 pw. Maybe it will stay at £200 pw until the end of the UK fiscal year and then revert back to the original frozen level of £100 pw but that is irrelevant for this discussion.

 

I am only basing what I think on reading different forums in the past, there has been a lot of discussion, partitions, lobbying in the House of Commons etc.

There must be many UK elderly expats who have been living in Thailand and receiving a frozen UK state pension for 10 years or more. If these people could spend 185 days in the Philippines or the UK to permanently change their UK state pension to the current larger amount when they return to live in Thailand they would be very silly not to do so if they can. I have never read of anyone doing this.

Also for me and many others the frozen pension would not be much of a problem if after some large pension increases like the last few years you can receive these increases by taking a 185 day holiday to the Philippines!

 

So the question is:-

In the future, let’s say 3 years from now is this man’s UK state pension £100 pw or £200 pw

 

 

I agree with you, I think that You Tuber (as helpful as he tries to be) is wrong.

 

 

I have correspondence from DWP that suggests that on returning to Thailand the pension revert to the original frozen amount when you first went to Thailand.

[ballpoint]

8 minutes ago, oxo1947 said:

No..I just wondered what is the Agreement these countries have that allows them to keep their pension current. I looked up the nurse thing---they have agents all over PI which will get you to the UK if your certificate are in line with what they want.

 

It looks like countries that have a lot of citizens working in the UK make these deals to protect their rights.  So the large number of Filipina nurses in the UK could very well be the reason.  I can't see Thailand doing such a deal to protect UK citizens here unless they get something out of it too.

 

"The UK has agreements with some other countries to protect the social security rights of workers moving between the 2 countries.

These are sometimes known as ‘bilateral agreements’ or ‘reciprocal agreements’.

If you live in one of the following countries and receive a UK State Pension, you will usually get an increase in your pension every year:

Barbados
Bermuda
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Gibraltar
Guernsey
the Isle of Man
Israel
Jamaica
Jersey
Kosovo
Mauritius
Montenegro
North Macedonia
the Philippines
Serbia
Turkey
USA
The UK has social security agreements with Canada and New Zealand, but you cannot get a yearly increase in your UK State Pension if you live in either of those countries".

 

Countries where we pay an annual increase in the State Pension - GOV.UK

 

 

And, in order to "unfreeze" your pension, you must return to the UK, not to one of the agreement countries, such as the Philippines.

 

"Your State Pension will only increase each year if you live in:

the European Economic Area (EEA)
Gibraltar
Switzerland
countries that have a social security agreement with the UK (but you cannot get increases in Canada or New Zealand)
You will not get yearly increases if you live outside these countries.

Your pension will go up to the current rate if you return to live in the UK".

 

If you later return to, say, Thailand, your pension will go back to the old frozen amount.

 

State Pension if you retire abroad: How your pension is affected - GOV.UK

 

[Keith5588]

10 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

I agree with you, I think that You Tuber (as helpful as he tries to be) is wrong.

 

 

I have correspondence from DWP that suggests that on returning to Thailand the pension revert to the original frozen amount when you first went to Thailand.

Thank you @hotandsticky for your comment and also bringing this post back on topic, much appreciated.

 

I think any query about this to the DWP has to be worded very carefully. Some have said just go back to Thailand from the Philippines and your pension will stay high. It will stay high and will receive increases if you do not inform the DWP, but that would be strictly fraud just the same as not informing DWP that you left the UK in the first place.

Again I am not judging anyone for what they do as the system is unfair.

 

 

[Goodison]

9 hours ago, Keith5588 said:

Hi, I would love to know the answer to this.

 

The amounts I use are not meant to be exact.

Personally I think freezing the UK pension depending upon which country you decide to live is wrong but for this post I don’t want a big discussion about whether you should inform the DWP or not.

The UK state pension is now classed as a benefit and so you should inform the DWP where you are living by law.

So I am assuming that you totally inform the DWP everything.    I am not prepared at the moment to contact the DWP directly.

 

I will use an example.

A 75 year old UK male started his UK state 10 years ago in 2014 receiving £100 per week and came to Thailand. His pension was frozen and so he is still receiving £100 per week.

If he lived in the UK, the Philippines or other countries that have an agreement so that the UK pension is not frozen he would now be receiving £200 pw.

The man goes to the Philippines and immediately informs the DWP that he is there. His pension is increased to £200 pw. 185 days later he returns to Thailand and stays in Thailand for future years.

 

A Youtuber and some other people has said that this mans UK state pension will remain at £200 pw for future years.

 

I disagree, after this man returns to Thailand I think that his UK state pension will revert to the original frozen level of £100 pw. Maybe it will stay at £200 pw until the end of the UK fiscal year and then revert back to the original frozen level of £100 pw but that is irrelevant for this discussion.

 

I am only basing what I think on reading different forums in the past, there has been a lot of discussion, partitions, lobbying in the House of Commons etc.

There must be many UK elderly expats who have been living in Thailand and receiving a frozen UK state pension for 10 years or more. If these people could spend 185 days in the Philippines or the UK to permanently change their UK state pension to the current larger amount when they return to live in Thailand they would be very silly not to do so if they can. I have never read of anyone doing this.

Also for me and many others the frozen pension would not be much of a problem if after some large pension increases like the last few years you can receive these increases by taking a 185 day holiday to the Philippines!

 

So the question is:-

In the future, let’s say 3 years from now is this man’s UK state pension £100 pw or £200 pw

 

[Denim]

Put another way.

 

A man starts receiving his state pension.

 

He stays in the UK for 4 years and receives the annual increase.

He then honestly informs the DWP that he is retiring to Thailand.

 

The question  therefore is , if he retires to Thailand does he receive his pension plus the annual increases or , once  he departs the UK does his pension drop back to his original first amount ?

 

What a can of worms !

[Goodison]

This topic of resetting UK frozen state pension was discussed in the link slow. Mike Lister has 2 comments that explain it. If you go the UK, Phillipines or any other Country where the state pension is indexed then to reset your frozen is not about the number of days you stay there but about getting the DWP to recognize you are habitually resident there, otherwise once you return to Thailand your pension will go back to the same rate it was when you left Thailand.

 

 

 

[Keith5588]

8 hours ago, Goodison said:

This topic of resetting UK frozen state pension was discussed in the link slow. Mike Lister has 2 comments that explain it. If you go the UK, Phillipines or any other Country where the state pension is indexed then to reset your frozen is not about the number of days you stay there but about getting the DWP to recognize you are habitually resident there, otherwise once you return to Thailand your pension will go back to the same rate it was when you left Thailand.

 

 

 

Thank you @Goodison. I can understand that if a UK citizen stays in the UK for part of the year, every year, and also convinces the DWP that they are permanent resident in the UK then their UK state pension will not be frozen even if they live in Thailand for most of the year.

I was assuming that most UK citizens receiving a frozen UK state pension are living permanently in Thailand and so they almost certainly would not convince the DWP that they have permanent resident in the UK. So I think you have confirmed that in my example the guys UK state pension will revert back to £100 per week.

 

[Keith5588]

Summary of replies so far

3 posts think that the guys UK state pension will revert back to the frozen £100 pw

0 posts think that the guys UK state pension will stay frozen at  £200 pw

[BritManToo]

8 hours ago, Goodison said:

This topic of resetting UK frozen state pension was discussed in the link slow. Mike Lister has 2 comments that explain it. If you go the UK, Phillipines or any other Country where the state pension is indexed then to reset your frozen is not about the number of days you stay there but about getting the DWP to recognize you are habitually resident there, otherwise once you return to Thailand your pension will go back to the same rate it was when you left Thailand.

So don't tell them you've gone back to Thailand!

[prakhonchai nick]

9 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

I agree with you, I think that You Tuber (as helpful as he tries to be) is wrong.

 

 

I have correspondence from DWP that suggests that on returning to Thailand the pension revert to the original frozen amount when you first went to Thailand.

YES.  And immediately, not  at the end of the year. But only if you tell them you have returned to Thailand. If you fail to advise them, (or suggest the advice letter got lost in the post if the truth should later come out)   (-DWP never acknowledge), you will receive the unfrozen pension +annual increases indefinitely.

 

For the record my pension is frozen.

 

In the past (until 2016) when falsely claiming the full unfrozen pension, by stating you lived in the UK or perhaps Philippines, upon death, if there was a Thai wife and/or young children who would receive benefits (now ceased) their payment was compromised due to the false claim.  Had that happen to 2 Thai widows who I assisted

[jori123]

12 hours ago, treetops said:

 

Can't vouch for it being true, but I read that the agreement with the Philippines was to keep the flow of healthcare staff from there to the UK sweet as the UK system would collapse without them.

as usual, a load of rubbish.  Comment please where you read that "agreement" lol

Edited November 25 by jori123

[jori123]

   A1     8.8% rise to the OAP,a guy at 66 just retiring will lose some 81,000 pounds with compounding by the age of 82

Those figures are indeed eye-opening! The compounding effect of an 8.8% rise in the State Pension (OAP) can lead to significant financial differences over time. It's understandable that this issue is causing concern among pensioners and advocates alike.

The debate around this is about fairness and ensuring that pensioners receive the full amount they are entitled to, regardless of where they live. It's a complex issue, but one that many believe needs addressing to uphold the principle of fairness.

Do you think there should be a change in the policy to ensure equal treatment for all pensioners?

 

  Based on last years  rise

Edited November 25 by jori123

[BritManToo]

22 minutes ago, jori123 said:

   A1     8.8% rise to the OAP,a guy at 66 just retiring will lose some 81,000 pounds with compounding by the age of 82

Those figures are indeed eye-opening! The compounding effect of an 8.8% rise in the State Pension (OAP) can lead to significant financial differences over time. It's understandable that this issue is causing concern among pensioners and advocates alike.

The debate around this is about fairness and ensuring that pensioners receive the full amount they are entitled to, regardless of where they live. It's a complex issue, but one that many believe needs addressing to uphold the principle of fairness.

Do you think there should be a change in the policy to ensure equal treatment for all pensioners?

 

  Based on last years  rise

Don't think there's gonna be much in the way of pension rises worth having in the future.

The past 2 years made 20%, next year 4% ....... think I'll be gone before it's another 20% aggregate rise.

(allegedly state pension claims average 8 years in duration)

[Goodison]

@oxo1947Over 90% of those on frozen pensions live in Commonwealth Countries with 45% in Australia and 30% in Canada.

[Goodison]

@DenimYou would get the rate you was getting when you left the UK with the 4 years of increases but that rate would then be frozen.

Edited November 25 by Goodison

[chiang mai]

22 hours ago, Keith5588 said:

Hi, I would love to know the answer to this.

 

The amounts I use are not meant to be exact.

Personally I think freezing the UK pension depending upon which country you decide to live is wrong but for this post I don’t want a big discussion about whether you should inform the DWP or not.

The UK state pension is now classed as a benefit and so you should inform the DWP where you are living by law.

So I am assuming that you totally inform the DWP everything.    I am not prepared at the moment to contact the DWP directly.

 

I will use an example.

A 75 year old UK male started his UK state 10 years ago in 2014 receiving £100 per week and came to Thailand. His pension was frozen and so he is still receiving £100 per week.

If he lived in the UK, the Philippines or other countries that have an agreement so that the UK pension is not frozen he would now be receiving £200 pw.

The man goes to the Philippines and immediately informs the DWP that he is there. His pension is increased to £200 pw. 185 days later he returns to Thailand and stays in Thailand for future years.

 

A Youtuber and some other people has said that this mans UK state pension will remain at £200 pw for future years.

 

I disagree, after this man returns to Thailand I think that his UK state pension will revert to the original frozen level of £100 pw. Maybe it will stay at £200 pw until the end of the UK fiscal year and then revert back to the original frozen level of £100 pw but that is irrelevant for this discussion.

 

I am only basing what I think on reading different forums in the past, there has been a lot of discussion, partitions, lobbying in the House of Commons etc.

There must be many UK elderly expats who have been living in Thailand and receiving a frozen UK state pension for 10 years or more. If these people could spend 185 days in the Philippines or the UK to permanently change their UK state pension to the current larger amount when they return to live in Thailand they would be very silly not to do so if they can. I have never read of anyone doing this.

Also for me and many others the frozen pension would not be much of a problem if after some large pension increases like the last few years you can receive these increases by taking a 185 day holiday to the Philippines!

 

So the question is:-

In the future, let’s say 3 years from now is this man’s UK state pension £100 pw or £200 pw

I lived here for 16 years, went back to the UK, claimed settled status and had my pension uprated. I returned to Thailand six months later, the following year I visited UK for two months, I have not returned to the UK since 2019. My pension is currently paid directly into my Thai bank account and is still at the uprated amount.

[prakhonchai nick]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I lived here for 16 years, went back to the UK, claimed settled status and had my pension uprated. I returned to Thailand six months later, the following year I visited UK for two months, I have not returned to the UK since 2019. My pension is currently paid directly into my Thai bank account and is still at the uprated amount.

Of course your pension is uprated annually, because you have not told them you have returned permanently to Thailand. That is fraud!

[Goodison]

For those who say just tell them you are in the UK or Philippines there is a current crack down on benefit fraud and they recruited addition fraud investigators. They are getting additional powers so they can check UK bank accounts, turn up at the address you say you live unannounced and talk to neighbors etc. Thailand is now a CRS Country and share your Banking and financial transactions with HMRC and visa versa and HMRC and DWP are joined at the hip. They already check passports when sent for renewal but next year the UK will have digital border which will do nothing to control illegal immigration but they will know every time we leave or enter the Country. The world is getting ever more digital and ever more difficult to hide in. 

[Keith5588]

24 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I lived here for 16 years, went back to the UK, claimed settled status and had my pension uprated. I returned to Thailand six months later, the following year I visited UK for two months, I have not returned to the UK since 2019. My pension is currently paid directly into my Thai bank account and is still at the uprated amount.

Thank you @chiang mai. Can I ask since 2019 while you have been in Thailand has your pension increased each year or stayed the same?

[Goodison]

@Keith5588 I know which YTer your talking about. IMO if your going to go the Philippines for 6 months to reset your state pension you need more than what somebody at DWP told you on the phone. Mike Lister said he had to get his MP involved to put pressure on the DWP to acknowledge he was habitually resident in the UK and it would be easier in the UK as you have an MP and need to be habitually resident to also get back your no charge at point of use access to the NHS. 

[BritManToo]

25 minutes ago, Goodison said:

For those who say just tell them you are in the UK or Philippines there is a current crack down on benefit fraud and they recruited addition fraud investigators. They are getting additional powers so they can check UK bank accounts, turn up at the address you say you live unannounced and talk to neighbors etc. Thailand is now a CRS Country and share your Banking and financial transactions with HMRC and visa versa and HMRC and DWP are joined at the hip. They already check passports when sent for renewal but next year the UK will have digital border which will do nothing to control illegal immigration but they will know every time we leave or enter the Country. The world is getting ever more digital and ever more difficult to hide in. 

Not even one reading in HOC yet, then HOL, then back to HOC.

So at least another 2 years before this MIGHT come into effect.

I suspect Starmer will be gone well before then, so pure speculation on your part.

 

PS.

Nobody noticed I wasn't living in the UK last time I renewed my passport.

Edited November 25 by BritManToo

[chiang mai]

46 minutes ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Of course your pension is uprated annually, because you have not told them you have returned permanently to Thailand. That is fraud!

Read what I wrote again. My UK State Pension is paid directly into my Bangkok Bank account in Thailand. My pension has not reverted back to my pre-2017 level but it has not been uprated since I stopped visiting the UK in 2019.

Edited November 25 by chiang mai

[chiang mai]

24 minutes ago, Keith5588 said:

Thank you @chiang mai. Can I ask since 2019 while you have been in Thailand has your pension increased each year or stayed the same?

My pension has remained the same as 2019, it has neither been uprated or reverted back to the pre 2016 rate.