Farming, profits and foreigners.

[justben]

In a country like Thailand, a huge % of the population see farming as a way of life, from which they can not escape. Supply and demand highly dependant on local economies and a huge number of regional, seasonal, political and other factors, it is inevitable that most go into a perpetual debt cycle, victims of market forces and trends, corporations and a myriad of factors which lead to continuous poverty. Everything from toxic feed to fake fertilizer, it's all being done.

How are you doing ? Anonymous poll.. just curious. I pondered the idea and the risks seems far too great with margins, if any, not worth the time of day.

Wether it's fish or livestock or crops, I'm lumping it all together.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Maestro
Removed off-topic comment about Israel.

[RedBullHorn]

If you want to know my figures, you need to pay me a fee.

Just a note : A successfully farmer (like me) is unlikely to share his figures and a failed farmer will whine and wonder what he hasn't done right.

Edited June 27, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[justben]

If you want to know my figures, you need to pay me a fee.

Just a note : A successfully farmer (like me) is unlikely to share his figures and a failed farmer will whine and wonder what he hasn't done right.

Just an anonymous poll.. Nobody asked for your figures. You are verging on peddling services though.

Thanks..

[Bluetongue]

None of the above or more than one, I'm sorry. Also I do fish and veggies for fun, but fruit for profit.

[RedBullHorn]

If you want to know my figures, you need to pay me a fee.

Just a note : A successfully farmer (like me) is unlikely to share his figures and a failed farmer will whine and wonder what he hasn't done right.

Just an anonymous poll.. Nobody asked for your figures. You are verging on peddling services though.

Thanks..

Yes because I'm in the mood.

Edited June 27, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[metisdead]

As the OP was comparing farming with Israel did not make this topic Thailand specific and only going to invite negative comments regarding Israel and Palestine. Off topic comments have been removed from the opening post and this topic is now re-opened.

Edited June 27, 2013 by metisdead
Topic re-opened.

[IsaanAussie]

I doubt it makes much difference where in the world a small holding farmer lives, building a sustainable lifestyle and generating adequate income will always be a challenge. I don't think that is likely to get any easier. To say that making a lot of money from farming in Thailand is impossible, is a nonsense. Take a look at the corporate businesses and the merchants that perpetually do well. For the single farmer is all about hard work and maximising what few opportunities comes his way.Very little has to do with luck and everything about time and cash management. RedBullHorn is a good example of that IMHO.

Regardless of the financial side of things, I keep battling on because I want to. I am learning new skills and more about myself than I would doing anything else. I look at the society I come from and see disaster pending as debt rises and Australia moves further away from any sort of independence. To me our society is approaching it's use by date, simply not sustainable.

Someone once said doing what you want is freedom and what you like is happiness. Staying motivated is a challenge with all the cultural differences but mostly it is about adjusting my own expectations and dealing with those of others. Adjust and move on.

Edited June 27, 2013 by IsaanAussie

[zeichen]

"Very little has to do with luck"

Since farming revolves around weather and nature which is unpredictable, I would say that luck has a major part in farming. Some years crops are double others years in certain areas.

I do think that the OP was just talking about average price of produce is rather low here since there is an abundance of farmers and subsistence farmers that don't need others for food. Whereas some other places with limited growing space and those engaged in farming can make higher profit margin.

However I do agree with Aussie 100%. People can make a good living and be quite wealthy from large scale farming done with a very methodical approach. Keeping accurate records, researching the markets, learning the trends, help farmers make a good living. However the problem is that knowledge sharing isn't always a part of human nature. As RedBullHorn demonstrates above. He will give basics but anything that will help you improve your business he will not help you with. It is human nature to protect your discoveries.

I used to work with glass and there are certain colored glasses that don't exist because those that owned the recipe destroyed it before they died.

What is the point of being wealthy if everyone else is too?

[IsaanAussie]

I disagree on the assistance given by one farmer to another. I doubt that there is anything that RBH does technically that isnt fairly well established in the public domain. What makes his efforts noteworthy is business savvy. Making a reasonable margin on a larger volume, getting into the right trading environment and supplying the right product. His location is close enough to market so logistics cost are reasonable.

In the case of the subsistence farmer, tradition farming methods can reduce the external costs of chemical agriculture. The largest issue is not labour cost, but the availability of any labour.

[pigeonjake]

i would think over the years ive read most of what RBH has writen on here,

and i agree with IA,its he knows what hes doing, buys in pigs that will be grown out at the time when the market needs pigs,

if im right he dosnt have them all the time, well not in great numbers,

jake

[RedBullHorn]

In a general forum, being a member of a favourite farming section, it's only right to contribute. To help others who are starting out with proven methods and guide them in, to clear doubts and trouble shoot. To introduce advance technique in raring and raising period, recommend assistance remedies and health supplement adequately to boost harvest yield and improve ADG and FCR. To induce passion and build moral support. To trigger individual business sense and acumen hence leading to identify ones area market, supply & demand, tricks and strategies, maximizing co-opts relationship . The last and most importance element to farming success depends deeply on the level of commitment, passion and efforts he puts in to do the learning curve.

That is where i stop and draw a line. The expert level that i've achieved is base on all the above, practice pratice and pratice untill i become sharp and always have an eye for details ! So good at this stage i became addicted and that i wanted more, to push myself, to challenge the limit and to break through. To highten my business sensory by keeping them in constant stimulation, not afraid to discover and build up knowledge to increase my own wisdom. And lastly... constant self nagging/discipline to "Do it ! Now ! What are you waiting for !?!! 2012 !?!! Or the Moon !?!!"

(It really hard to drag myself out of the bed at 4:30am with a mind still half drunk every early morning. )

Yes luck do play a part, like weather (no rain, no water, no fish, no business, no income) and meting the right people and opportunities. But like a famous Chinese quote said... " 3 parts faith and 7 parts efforts "

I have a couple of people working for me now so i don't do the manual labour anymore, but i still need to wake up at 4:30am every morning and be present on site at 5:15am looking at what they are doing and making sure that there's no short cut in the work process. Never is there a day that they are punctual... So i introduce incentive to get them motivated and penalize when they are sloppy. You want to drink and like to have fun at night, make sure you can commit and work the next day too. Or you could adjust what time you should stop and goes to bed.

I only share expertise information and methods if i know a person personally and if he is worthy of such cause, but not on a general forum. And i share no contacts. People need to learn self motivation and source for themselves, there is a limit on reliance to others.

As for the consultation fee or information fee, I'm just trolling around.

Edited June 28, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[RedBullHorn]

The best part of ones experiance is always through ones own effort, it is not meant for sharing...

When they get to the best part base on their own effort, they will know how precious it is and treasure it with care hence protecting it as a secret.

" Neither a wild mushrooms hunter nor a bullfrog tapoles gatherer will ever reveal the places they got them from..." - Thai villager

Edited June 28, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[IsaanAussie]

Let get back to the OPs remarks. "Not worth the time of day..." I think a lot of people tend to think of value in western terms or even urban Thai terms rather than in context of Thailand rural communities. Think in terms of gross profit first not the nett value. Many times I tend to just get things done faster which means more cost than is necessary. There are alternatives to buying everything and things that can be value added to offset cost. One thing is for sure, most of that costs your physical effort.

Any plans on maintaining or improving on a western expat lifestyle here based on small holding farming are dreams. For some of us, nice dreams to have but not what motivates us. Regardless of scale and as RBH says, never take your eye off the game.

[charlie10]

Interesting to hear the views of whether falang farmers are making money. Personally i don't think there is any money to made from farming particularly on small scale and not here in Thailand. Also, depends on your definition of making money. Here, like most countries around the world the producer is getting squeezed and driven out of business whilst the middle man, retailers and big business rake in the profits. When it comes to products like rice, pork, chickens, eggs, rubber and the like, all commodity markets, where supply impacts directly on price as does market structure. All over supplied and all giving piss poor margin to the hard working producer. It's a never ending assault. We get into diabolical situations of soaring feed prices whilst selling prices stagnate, or worse, decline. You're never going to win big here. And it's hard physical work along the way. This sounds all very bleak, and it is. But, there are the upsides of keeping yourself occupied, giving you an interest in life and and the warped sense of self esteem you have in knowing that you are not sitting on your back side all day and are actually making some kind of income and fulfilling some kind of dream in what you do.

p.s. It's been a long while since my last visit here. Good to see you still active on the forum Isaan Aussie!

[zeichen]

I think that small scale is a very open term. For Australian herders anything under 100k head is small scale. I grew up on a farm in the US about 20 acres with 250 head of sheep, and all the other stuff. It didn't make us rich, but made a profit. Not huge but still a profit is better than none.

I think that with the right effort and commitment even foreigners here with spouse and local support can provide a good living for their families on less than 10 rai. A teacher here might earn about 250k-400k baht a year, but someone farming that has enough for start up costs and operating costs while figuring things out, can make equal to that plus the added satisfaction of working with the land. Also you will probably have less living expenses providing food for yourself. I know that I trade some of my harvests of veggies (granted small amounts) with some local markets for future amounts of produce for them. So if I have 10 kilos of lemon grass today, I bring to them and get a few handfuls spread out through the year when I need it. I also try and grow things slightly before or after most local harvests. If you know when the market is flooded getting in before or a few weeks after can often give you better prices. but also can increase costs by needing to water more or fertilize more.

I think that farming is something like bar owners, they think if I just spend some money and open my bar/farm I'll make profit right away. need to really get out there and know your local community and not just rely on the spouse to do that for you. I know my wife has nothing to do with selling or bargaining with people. I need to make contacts myself as she is too shy for that.

[justben]

I'm enjoying reading this thread. Thanks

[ROEY]

+1

[pigeonjake]

you didnt put on your poll, making a little bit of profit,

and to be honest in thailand you dont need to make big money as they say,

we sold our last lot of pigs just before i came away, partly because mac my wife as people know on here gave birth to our daughter last sept, so it would be to much for her, even though her mama used to help her, but again that is eating into your profits paying someone,

like many have said before me, youll find you have to do if not all but most of the work yourself,

while i was away last year my wife bought 25 day old ducks, karki campbells, didnt have to pay for them for 3 months as the men garanteed them to be female,

very good, so when i got home they were just about to start laying, 20 eggs every day, great, we had 3 males, and the men gave my wife 1 male free,

so i said well get some moskovies and when the go broody we,ll put the karki eggs under them so we have allways got new ducks coming along, and its working well, there is allways someone coming to buy eggs from the wife most days, sometimes she dosnt have enough and they say ill come back tomorow, knowing that they are fresh eggs and very good,

if you get a good name for yourself in your area then the people will come back time and time again to buy from you, thats what happens to us,

ive got many ideas kicking round in my head about making a shilling here, put most of them will have to wait till i retire properly,im fortunate that i can still come away and earn good money,

but my wife is doing her part in getting us a name around our surrouding area for supply of good stuff,

so all in all, things are going well, and as they say things can only get better

jake

[patongphil]

Jake just a heads up with ducks. We got 21 about 2 years ago - 3 were male. Anyway more buyers than eggs for a year or so but then buyers dried up as many villagers seeing what we were doing bought our eggs, put them under their chickens and lo and behold here we sit with a village full of ducks. Now no real market for eggs at a decent price around here.

They will copy anything and flood the market to unsustainable levels much as some of the pig farmers are finding out. We have now sold most of our ducks and only have a few for enough eggs for our and family consumption.

[pigeonjake]

i totttaly agree with you,

i think we have just been lucky that they havnt started doing this yet,

i see a few ducks kicking around, but not enough for others to start selling, a freind of my wifes bought some the same time that my wife bought ours,,

she wasnt getting anywere near the eggs we were, if she was getting 4 a day she was lucky, people were saying you need a pond for them,ect ect, i told the wife, its becouse she dosnt feed them the right food,

same with the pig job, we could get pigs to 100kilo in 4,to 4.5 months feeding the right food,

now a thai, well most of them round here would feed just ram,and it would take them 8,9 months to get them to mkt,

so if ram was 6bht kilo, it is round here, there isnt that much difference in the price for getting that pig to mkt,

but some thais see ram at 6bht and buy it,

but each to there own, im happy in doing what we do,

we feed the ducks layers pellets and they do have ram too, and they lay good,

they go on the pond most mornings to bath but thats about it, they eat the patbung, but they arnt on the water all the time,

jake

[charlie10]

I think that small scale is a very open term. For Australian herders anything under 100k head is small scale. I grew up on a farm in the US about 20 acres with 250 head of sheep, and all the other stuff. It didn't make us rich, but made a profit. Not huge but still a profit is better than none.

I think that with the right effort and commitment even foreigners here with spouse and local support can provide a good living for their families on less than 10 rai. A teacher here might earn about 250k-400k baht a year, but someone farming that has enough for start up costs and operating costs while figuring things out, can make equal to that plus the added satisfaction of working with the land. Also you will probably have less living expenses providing food for yourself. I know that I trade some of my harvests of veggies (granted small amounts) with some local markets for future amounts of produce for them. So if I have 10 kilos of lemon grass today, I bring to them and get a few handfuls spread out through the year when I need it. I also try and grow things slightly before or after most local harvests. If you know when the market is flooded getting in before or a few weeks after can often give you better prices. but also can increase costs by needing to water more or fertilize more.

I think that farming is something like bar owners, they think if I just spend some money and open my bar/farm I'll make profit right away. need to really get out there and know your local community and not just rely on the spouse to do that for you. I know my wife has nothing to do with selling or bargaining with people. I need to make contacts myself as she is too shy for that.

Agreed. Size is all relative. 100k + of head certainly doesn't fit my definition of small scale farming for sure. Unfortunately I do think that making money out of farming is a numbers game given low profit per head when livestock raising. I'm a little bit surprised to hear you think a person can make good profit and money from 10 rai of land. What are you growing and selling? We have 27 rai of land, poor quality, no water outside the rainy season and grow 1 crop of rice a year. I suspect what we get back after costs would barely enable a falang to live in the style he is accustomed to for very long - maybe 1-2 months if that. Indeed most Thais who I know who are dependent on income from only the rice harvest are now struggling and reliant on other sources of income. Fortunately they are able to live at a fraction of the cost to a falang. The gap is closing though. Where you do save of course is the fact you don't have to buy the expensive rice in the shops so adding that saving up over a year does add to a 'hidden' income benefit.

I think you do mention a very important in point in your post re selling and bargaining. If you are able to do it yourself you may be able to make things happen and get a better return for your produce, but the reality for most I think is that we are reliant on wives and their willingness and ability to get a good deal. The notion that Thailand s a country of barter and barganing though seems less pertinent when it comes to selling livestock and crops. I find there is an amazing amount of price rigidity and a lack of willingness on the buyer to negotiate. I remember when for half a year the price of pork per kilo for 'live' meat went up from around 50b/kilo to a government set 85baht / kilo for the Isaan region where I live. The result. People's price perceptions for 'live' meat never moved; we struggled to get 55 baht / kilo and with the glut of options these buyers have and the local producers ignorant of the price move, you sell at that price or don't sell. The killer was that feed prices had seriously increased prior and during that period, but again, the locals never look at the cost of production, just what they get in their hand when they sell. It is in such a market and in such situations that many falang farmers have to operate in. And that's why I suspect when you look at the poll results to date, only 1 person is claiming to make a income (by the sounds of it RedBullHorn?) whilst the vast majority of other people who voted indicate they are not making sufficient money.

[StefanBBK]

I think that small scale is a very open term. For Australian herders anything under 100k head is small scale. I grew up on a farm in the US about 20 acres with 250 head of sheep, and all the other stuff. It didn't make us rich, but made a profit. Not huge but still a profit is better than none.

 

I think that with the right effort and commitment even foreigners here with spouse and local support can provide a good living for their families on less than 10 rai. A teacher here might earn about 250k-400k baht a year, but someone farming that has enough for start up costs and operating costs while figuring things out, can make equal to that plus the added satisfaction of working with the land. Also you will probably have less living expenses providing food for yourself. I know that I trade some of my harvests of veggies (granted small amounts) with some local markets for future amounts of produce for them. So if I have 10 kilos of lemon grass today, I bring to them and get a few handfuls spread out through the year when I need it. I also try and grow things slightly before or after most local harvests. If you know when the market is flooded getting in before or a few weeks after can often give you better prices. but also can increase costs by needing to water more or fertilize more.

 

I think that farming is something like bar owners, they think if I just spend some money and open my bar/farm I'll make profit right away. need to really get out there and know your local community and not just rely on the spouse to do that for you.  I know my wife has nothing to do with selling or bargaining with people. I need to make contacts myself as she is too shy for that.

You are so right. Often people engage in businesses they have no idea about. Just because a person regularly eats in restaurants does not qualify them to run one.

same is for farming, I can imagine. If you want to run it as succesdful business, you need to know a lot about it to start an then gain more expirience. One also has to have business sense.

One day I will get myself a big veggie garden and become self-sustainable. I will never become a sucessful farmer, as I know nothing about that business.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[David48]

There's a poster here named Monkeypants whose been a member on the Forum for coming up to 10 years who, apparently has a commercial chicken operation.

He doesn't post often, but he does seem to earn his keep through his Farm.

What about the Rubber Men?

But those making a living Farming appear to be the exception.

.

[willyumiii]

I had to click on " I don't farm" !

My Thai wife farms, not me!

I believe there are laws in Thailand about Farangs farming...no?

Is this a trick survey put out by the labor board? lol

[pigeonjake]

ok i dont farm then,

i just feed my wifes pigs.

also clean there <deleted> up,

feed her ducks and collect eggs for her,

not forgeting i also build her pig stys and duck house,,

and any other job she wants me to do,, all unpaid you understand,

jake,,,lol

[RedBullHorn]

I think that small scale is a very open term. For Australian herders anything under 100k head is small scale. I grew up on a farm in the US about 20 acres with 250 head of sheep, and all the other stuff. It didn't make us rich, but made a profit. Not huge but still a profit is better than none.

I think that with the right effort and commitment even foreigners here with spouse and local support can provide a good living for their families on less than 10 rai. A teacher here might earn about 250k-400k baht a year, but someone farming that has enough for start up costs and operating costs while figuring things out, can make equal to that plus the added satisfaction of working with the land. Also you will probably have less living expenses providing food for yourself. I know that I trade some of my harvests of veggies (granted small amounts) with some local markets for future amounts of produce for them. So if I have 10 kilos of lemon grass today, I bring to them and get a few handfuls spread out through the year when I need it. I also try and grow things slightly before or after most local harvests. If you know when the market is flooded getting in before or a few weeks after can often give you better prices. but also can increase costs by needing to water more or fertilize more.

I think that farming is something like bar owners, they think if I just spend some money and open my bar/farm I'll make profit right away. need to really get out there and know your local community and not just rely on the spouse to do that for you. I know my wife has nothing to do with selling or bargaining with people. I need to make contacts myself as she is too shy for that.

Agreed. Size is all relative. 100k + of head certainly doesn't fit my definition of small scale farming for sure. Unfortunately I do think that making money out of farming is a numbers game given low profit per head when livestock raising. I'm a little bit surprised to hear you think a person can make good profit and money from 10 rai of land. What are you growing and selling? We have 27 rai of land, poor quality, no water outside the rainy season and grow 1 crop of rice a year. I suspect what we get back after costs would barely enable a falang to live in the style he is accustomed to for very long - maybe 1-2 months if that. Indeed most Thais who I know who are dependent on income from only the rice harvest are now struggling and reliant on other sources of income. Fortunately they are able to live at a fraction of the cost to a falang. The gap is closing though. Where you do save of course is the fact you don't have to buy the expensive rice in the shops so adding that saving up over a year does add to a 'hidden' income benefit.

I think you do mention a very important in point in your post re selling and bargaining. If you are able to do it yourself you may be able to make things happen and get a better return for your produce, but the reality for most I think is that we are reliant on wives and their willingness and ability to get a good deal. The notion that Thailand s a country of barter and barganing though seems less pertinent when it comes to selling livestock and crops. I find there is an amazing amount of price rigidity and a lack of willingness on the buyer to negotiate. I remember when for half a year the price of pork per kilo for 'live' meat went up from around 50b/kilo to a government set 85baht / kilo for the Isaan region where I live. The result. People's price perceptions for 'live' meat never moved; we struggled to get 55 baht / kilo and with the glut of options these buyers have and the local producers ignorant of the price move, you sell at that price or don't sell. The killer was that feed prices had seriously increased prior and during that period, but again, the locals never look at the cost of production, just what they get in their hand when they sell. It is in such a market and in such situations that many falang farmers have to operate in. And that's why I suspect when you look at the poll results to date, only 1 person is claiming to make a income (by the sounds of it RedBullHorn?) whilst the vast majority of other people who voted indicate they are not making sufficient money.

No Charlie10, i didn't cast my vote in this poll.

You made a good point on water. It is always the water source that matters. With sufficient water supply year round, i make good profit even if it is just 1 rai. 10 rai...... I'll make tonnes !!!

[RedBullHorn]

ok i dont farm then,

i just feed my wifes pigs.

also clean there <deleted> up,

feed her ducks and collect eggs for her,

not forgeting i also build her pig stys and duck house,,

and any other job she wants me to do,, all unpaid you understand,

jake,,,lol

I don't farm either...

I just use my eye power and point my finger.

I just put in a few millions Baht to help Thailand's economy, make profit to buy the wife jewelries, a couple of nice cars and a few Honda. Build her a couple of nice houses and give the wife a few credit cards, buy my son a Pedigree Golden Retriever to boost the family status and face. Hire a couple of farmhands to help the country employment rate. Supplying farm produce to consumers and feeding them. Send my son to a top school to be educated.

Foreigners don't farm, but they do bring in money to invest, they need to live and they will have to spent too. They need visa they need extension of stay, they need to show money to authorities to prove they have sufficient fund for the yearly stay. In the rural, how much does one household of 3 family members spent per month ? Under ฿5'000, we spent more the ฿8'000. If we include the monthly installment of a car, bank loans and other miscellaneous payment like funeral funds...etc etc. Easily ฿20'000 per month. These are all money and it is coming from us - the foreigners. Providing for the families as loving husbands.

We don't get paid too for all our efforts, all the profits goes to the wife's bank account so she can balances all the bills payment and our living expenses.

Edited June 29, 2013 by RedBullHorn

[zeichen]

"I'm a little bit surprised to hear you think a person can make good profit and money from 10 rai of land. What are you growing and selling?"

Charlie I never said a good profit, I said a good living. In a rural setting 10 rai farmed with the right crops/livestock during the right conditions and the right land to start with, you can earn more than you could teaching the 2nd most popular choice of profession for expats.

Growing Rice isn't a crop that you can make a profit from small scale so why bother. Unless it is only for your own needs. Personally, I believe in subsistence farming. You lower your own cost of living by being self sufficient. That should only take about 1-2 rai to support a family with rotating gardens, fish pond, certain livestock, and rice if you really want to do it. I personally don't do rice, too much effort for me.

Don't raise crops just because that is what your partner's family has been doing for 50 years. Llamyai used to be the crash crop of the north, wouldn't even pay for your water and fertilizer to grow them now though.

[pigeonjake]

10 rai,

we have 2 rai,

3 bedroom house and garden, on a 3rd of it,

our pig stys take up 20mts x 15mts, and they make money,

if you want to grow trees to make money yes more land, but if you want to get 20,or 30 pigs a month out your gate you dont need a big area,

we have 11 pig pens, 2 store sheds,

a pond behind the pig stys, ducks on that and chickens running round, and the wife still has plenty of room for growing veg, and we have about 60 lambutin trees, and bananas round the boundry fence,

you can do a lot with 2 rai, if you put your mind to it,

please dont fall into the trap that you need 100s of rai to make a bit of money,

just my thoughts as ever

jake

[IsaanAussie]

Reminds me of the Python gang's routine "'Ole in Road, bloody luxury!"

The fact RBH is making money has little to do with being farang. He has been lucky or smart enough to find a niche and a critical mass to start kicking goals. But I don't read anything in what he writes that indicates he is doing much different to the locals in the same position. The numbers he quotes as expenses in the above posting show me a very comfortable but still Thai Farming lifestyle. I'd be more than happy with those numbers.

How about you guys?

I have an Australian friend who has lived in Bangkok for many years and was recently offered a new job at 220,000 baht a month. AND HE TURNED IT DOWN saying IT WASN'T ENOUGH! WFT....? This guy has been talking about moving to Isaan and starting a farm to live an easier life for years.

So the Sunday sermon concludes with: be under no illusions here. There are profits to be made farming here all we have to do is be happy with what we can achieve and live within our incomes.

So what was the next step down from the Ole in Road?