Monthly Expenditures Of Expats

[bendix]

I'd love to contribute to this thread today, but I've decided instead to go for a coffee (110baht) and a danish pastry (60 baht).

Apologies to greenwanderer if that offends his sense of what it is appropriate for me to spend my money on.

I also apologise for earning an expat income. I would certainly welcome greenie's input into how I should dispose of it.

[The Dude]

Greenie says we can allocate 100 baht per day for all food. Bendix stop! you cannot shell 110 bt for a coffee and 60 for danish. that's 2 days expense

[greenwanderer108]

a western one, at least)

... western university

...the differences between Thai 'international' universities and universities in the west.

...here very young and working in a job where you have had no western training or experience

From what I gather in your last two posts, your logic is deducing that

1. I am not a qualified teacher

(because)

2. I have no formal western training (in a western country)

Therefore, one can conclude from your arguments that

3. Those without formal western training (in a western country) are not qualified to teach.

Don't you find this a little arrogant, if not colonialist? Do you not ever plan to expose your children to great teacher's as Confucious or Sidartha...who had no formal western teacher training as far as I know?

Anyhow, we seem to agree that formal education isn't everything, and that experiential learning carries it's own weight...BTW, teaching is something that I can do, do, and have done for many years...it's not just/exclusively who I am.

I think by mentioning that people have different priorites I was making the point that everyone has different outlooks on life and we should accept these differences.[/b]

We, as in you and me okay...agreed...BTW, it's not that I don't accept that someone who makes more than me spends more than me...The earning part, I can come to terms with...everyone has their own qualifications and right to make their money from their own experience. For the most part, spending, I can understand and completely grasp that...

1)some have larger family obligations to support

2) some are saving away for the future...i.e. retirement, emergencies, travel

THESE TWO REASONS, I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RESENTMENT, BITTERNESS, OR MISUNDERSTANDING. I ACCEPT AND CAN RESPECT THESE AS VALID AND JUSTIFIED REASONS FOR EXCESSIVE (in a poor man's eyes) SPENDING

...but where my bitterness comes from is :

3)some choose, because they can, to pay 500 percent more than standard market rates for accomadations, which in effect exploits the market rates (i.e. Bangkok condo market) Sometimes, these condo owners as I have heard aren't even expats living here...from wealthy farang holidayers to Thais overseas who have money to throw around.

And the worst part is these same people who exploit the market don't give a rat's butt and get defensive as they don't seem to realize the consequences to other potential home/condo owners..

and finally group

4) Those who spend in excess of 20,000 baht per month for food for one person. Like I said, this is not so much if we're talking about a family, but for one person to spend that much in Thailand on a regular basis 12 months of the year (not a holiday) because he/she has the power and right to choose to do so is not only arrogant and selfish...but absolutely disgusting!

You can eat loads of western food out, at home, an excess of alcohal as I am even able to do myself to an extent and still not even get close to 10,000 baht/ month...

Maybe, they aren't purposely exploiting the food market and stereotype of farang in Thailand...maybe they just don't know any better. Maybe, if/when they go grocery shopping they don't know that 250 baht per kilogram of beef is an exploited price, taking advantage of them because they just don't know any better.

Or maybe they know the effects/consequences of exploitation, but they don't care because they don't have to...because they're wealthy enough not to have to care...

[bendix]

Well, I enjoyed that coffee and am now back to hear more of greenie's philosophising.

I'll do a bit of work, and then wander up to a restaurant for lunch. If it's ok with you guys, I plan to spend around 300 baht on something nice and italian.

How much is that so far?

Apologies to all those I'm exploiting in the process . . . .

[bendix]

BTW Greenie.

Could you please advise me what I'm supposed to do with my income? I take home around 350,000 a month, excluding investment income and rent on my house in farangland.

Would you prepare a budget for me, which you think is appropriate, and then advise what to do with the balance (if there is one)?

And, while you're doing that, you might want to consider if it's better for Thailand for me to spend it here (in any way I choose to do so), or suck it out of the country and send it to my bank account overseas.

Happy to be advised by you, of course . . .

[Maigo6]

Well, I enjoyed that coffee and am now back to hear more of greenie's philosophising.

I'll do a bit of work, and then wander up to a restaurant for lunch. If it's ok with you guys, I plan to spend around 300 baht on something nice and italian.

How much is that so far?

Apologies to all those I'm exploiting in the process . . . .

Bendix, I think you should have a packet of mama and a boiled egg. Green wanderer would approve.

[PeaceBlondie]

Where does greenieweeniewanderer come up with these examples? Four kids and a few mistresses on the side? Farang who bid up the housing market for condos that are 500% more than the market price? Gee, can I tell my landlady to reduce my seaside bungalow's rent from 10,500 baht to 1,750 per month? That's great. I had six kids, a nonworking wife, a dog, and no mistresses or boyfriends to support, but I was in Texas.

But that's irrelevant, and so is the amount that some of us spend on food. The one month recently that I kept close track, I spent 16,500 on drinks and food for me and my occasional roommate. So what? The Thai vendors that I bought from appreciated the business. We wasted none of the food. I detest Thai food with a passion, finding it inedible. The food I pay costs more than the refuse that passes for Thai food in Thailand. Now, that's a nasty opinion, but I can hold that opinion and live by it. Pass the frosted doughnuts, please.

Tedium, tedia, tweedledee. The hippies had a nice slogan that went something like this: "You do your thing, and I'll do mine...." I thought that was kinda like "mai bpen rai" and Thai and Buddhist tolerance.

By the way, if this guy is teaching English, he's making common spelling errors, but this is just an internet forum, not a teaching forum.

He is not a university graduate, even in Thailand. His wife pays half the rent, so she works. Does the 25,000 include her income as well as his? You know, Thai teachers WITH a degree, earned in Thailand, have a beginning salary below 8,000. This kid's been teaching, without a degree, for less than 3 years probably, so he's making maybe 7,000.

Maybe there's something wrong with my math, except I'm a retired accountant who taught M1 mathematics in Thailand. Most leprechauns and other folks living under the bridge aren't so good at numbers.

[greenwanderer108]

Well, I enjoyed that coffee and am now back to hear more of greenie's philosophising.

I'll do a bit of work, and then wander up to a restaurant for lunch. If it's ok with you guys, I plan to spend around 300 baht on something nice and italian.

How much is that so far?

Apologies to all those I'm exploiting in the process . . . .

So far today, you're going on 470 baht, and we've still got dinner to go. So to make your 666 baht average, you've still got less than 200 baht to go for dinner.. Yesterday, you had Somtum and a Chang for dinner...that couldn't have been much more than a 100 baht..You must have had a big breakfeast/lunch yesterday to make yesterday's 666 baht.

Okay, so what, there's been occasions where I spend 700-1000 baht in one day for food with similar expenses eating out...though I must say, that's usually been for 2 or more people. Can't say that I recall many occasions exceeding 500 baht for only myself.

It's not amazing that it can happen on some days, but for it to happen everysingle day of the year as to get your 20,000 baht a month average is quite amazing to put it nicely!

It would suggest that you don't frequent the market, and rarely cook/eat at home, let alone eat much authentic Thai food. (I find it hard to believe if not impossible that you can average 666 baht a day 7 days a week, 365 days a year if you ate Thai food even 50 percent of the time)

Are you sure your calculations aren't including a missus or other friends that you treat? That would make a lot more sense...

[Doza]

I do resent the fact that there are dozens if not hundreds of farang

I simply stated my resentment for the actions

Where do you get the idea that I'm bitter of others for making more than me?

Ha ha ha ha haaaaaa aaaahhhhh hhhaaaaaaa...........

[greenwanderer108]

... Farang who bid up the housing market for condos that are 500% more than the market price? Gee, can I tell my landlady to reduce my seaside bungalow's rent from 10,500 baht to 1,750 per month?

While one could easily rent/buy seaside townhouse or bungalow for 1750 or less/month in certain parts of Phetchburi, Rayong, Samut Sonkram, and Jantaburi for starters, I can see why it might be difficult if not impossible to find something at that range in most of Chonburi/Pattaya, and western Phuket. And why is that? Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

Same reason why, it's just as hard to find a 50 sq. meter++ condo around Silom and Sukhumwit for less than a million dollars. It must be all those Japanese executives right? Well, then again, I've never heard many cases of a rich Japanese man housing his Go-go girlfriend in a multi million dollar condo in Bangkok with a monthly loyalty salary while he lives/works away in Japan, and throws more money on a PI to bust her...not saying they don't exist, just that I haven't necessarily heard about these types....as I digress...

He is not a university graduate, even in Thailand. His wife pays half the rent, so she works. Does the 25,000 include her income as well as his? You know, Thai teachers WITH a degree, earned in Thailand, have a beginning salary below 8,000. This kid's been teaching, without a degree, for less than 3 years probably, so he's making maybe 7,000.

Maybe there's something wrong with my math, except I'm a retired accountant who taught M1 mathematics in Thailand. Most leprechauns and other folks living under the bridge aren't so good at numbers.

For your information, I originally taught full time for accumulating total of 3 years 2001-2004, and have been teaching only part time since...now working journalism full time. Though, I'm considering relocating to a less exploited province to raise my family soon, going back to teaching full time.

All the attempts to downsize me based on my credentials and age is quite humorous to me. Had I listened to senior's comments about living up to some status quo, and following some suggested path as to fit inside a box, etc. etc. as to satisfy old guys/gals’ standards who know the ropes of life, etc. etc.,

I would have missed out on life altogether. Many of you attack me calling me bitter...but as it seems to me, you are the one's who are bitter... You say I'm unwilling to accept you and your lifestyles, but as I can tell, it is you who ridicule my life decisions and path...perhaps you are envious of my zeal, youth, and passion in life...because it is just so easy for a young man as myself to come over to Thailand and do the things in life here that you had to work 30-40 years of your life to be able to afford, or get the balls to do....maybe your resentment for me and my ideals goes deeper than that...

In that you worked so hard in life to save up so that not only your exodus from this life will be pleasant, but so that your offspring and offspring's offspring, and so on's path in life will be comfortable.. So that they will have everything provided for them...education, shelter...entertainment...everything... Depending how you will raise them, they may/may not know the value of what they have, and from the sounds of it, many of you take for granted what you have.

I am grateful for what I have...I realize that I have an advantage over many in finding work, just for being American...even as you, Peaceblondie pointed out, that I have no degree yet can automatically be guaranteed a salary 3 times as much as most Thai university graduates...While I see where you might be getting at, it is not fair comparison at that...

How many of these Thai graduates have actually labored a full time or even part time job? How many of them have fended and provided for themselves since they were 15? How many of them have taught themselves language, music, art, etc. etc.?? How many have even opened a savings account on their own will? How many of them have ever even paid their own rent? How many of them have proved they're responsible and reliable? How many of them have ever made crucial decisions about their own lives without their parents to puppet them?

I can tell you that all my Thai peers, couzins and friends that are Thai graduates, or soon to be, can't say for themselves what I can say for my own self, experience, and background. And the ones who can say as much or more certainly aren't the ones getting an 8k/month salary.

Sure, there are exceptions to everything, but I'm sure you can get my point.

With that said, Peaceblondie, even your 16,500 food budget for that month is quite far from 20,000 baht a month average throughout the year. (Even if you averaged 16.5/month in one year, that's 42,000 baht less than 20k/month) And you, yourself admitted this included the 'occasional' guest. Just one guest? How occasional? These are quite important factors and can make a big difference in your personal monthly budget if this factor weren't present. Something tells me your guest isn't a once a week, 3 meal, neighbor...but enlighten me anyway if you dare sir.

[GuestHouse]

[q]How many of these Thai graduates have actually labored a full time or even part time job? How many of them have fended and provided for themselves since they were 15? How many of them have taught themselves language, music, art, etc. etc.?? How many have even opened a savings account on their own will? How many of them have ever even paid their own rent? How many of them have proved they're responsible and reliable? How many of them have ever made crucial decisions about their own lives without their parents to puppet them?[/q]

I’m working with three Thais here in Rome, two graduates of King Mongkhut and one graduate of Tamasart. They are extremely capable members of our team and doing a great job.

I can’t say how old they where when they started fending for themselves, what drove them to open their first savings account. I can tell you (and confess) they do not pay their own rent. Like me they have their rent paid for them by the company we work for – they also get to keep the residue (Max rent allowance – Actual Rent Paid).

They have certainly made a few crucial life decisions (including coming here to Rome), they may or may not have consulted with their parents, as is their cultural custom (Was it you that was bleating on about imposing western values on others – Doh!)

What I can also tell you is… All three of them went to University AND DID NOT DROP OUT Not dropping out, obviously brought them some rewards.

And here’s another thing. They are living in neighborhoods that most Italians could not afford, they have expense accounts, company cars, flight allowances, free medical insurance, free international schooling for their children, company pension schemes, all their visas and work permits are taken care of and paid for.

These, I remind you are Thais!

Their qualifications, experience and contribution are valued and rewarded at the same rates any other employee of the company we work for.

Perhaps there are bitter and twisted people here in Italy who envy their prosperity and privilege – There must be an Italian version of greenwanderer.

People obsessed with why others have a different life to the one they tell us they themselves are happy to live

Again, get a life greenwanderer.

You’re a mess, and from what you have told us, you are a mess of your own making.

[skylar]

This thread is so ridiculous that I decline to comment any further.

[jimbob]

a western one, at least)

... western university

...the differences between Thai 'international' universities and universities in the west.

...here very young and working in a job where you have had no western training or experience

From what I gather in your last two posts, your logic is deducing that

1. I am not a qualified teacher

(because)

2. I have no formal western training (in a western country)

Therefore, one can conclude from your arguments that

3. Those without formal western training (in a western country) are not qualified to teach.

Don't you find this a little arrogant, if not colonialist? Do you not ever plan to expose your children to great teacher's as Confucious or Sidartha...who had no formal western teacher training as far as I know?

Anyhow, we seem to agree that formal education isn't everything, and that experiential learning carries it's own weight...BTW, teaching is something that I can do, do, and have done for many years...it's not just/exclusively who I am.

I think by mentioning that people have different priorites I was making the point that everyone has different outlooks on life and we should accept these differences.[/b]

We, as in you and me okay...agreed...BTW, it's not that I don't accept that someone who makes more than me spends more than me...The earning part, I can come to terms with...everyone has their own qualifications and right to make their money from their own experience. For the most part, spending, I can understand and completely grasp that...

1)some have larger family obligations to support

2) some are saving away for the future...i.e. retirement, emergencies, travel

THESE TWO REASONS, I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RESENTMENT, BITTERNESS, OR MISUNDERSTANDING. I ACCEPT AND CAN RESPECT THESE AS VALID AND JUSTIFIED REASONS FOR EXCESSIVE (in a poor man's eyes) SPENDING

...but where my bitterness comes from is :

3)some choose, because they can, to pay 500 percent more than standard market rates for accomadations, which in effect exploits the market rates (i.e. Bangkok condo market) Sometimes, these condo owners as I have heard aren't even expats living here...from wealthy farang holidayers to Thais overseas who have money to throw around.

And the worst part is these same people who exploit the market don't give a rat's butt and get defensive as they don't seem to realize the consequences to other potential home/condo owners..

and finally group

4) Those who spend in excess of 20,000 baht per month for food for one person. Like I said, this is not so much if we're talking about a family, but for one person to spend that much in Thailand on a regular basis 12 months of the year (not a holiday) because he/she has the power and right to choose to do so is not only arrogant and selfish...but absolutely disgusting!

You can eat loads of western food out, at home, an excess of alcohal as I am even able to do myself to an extent and still not even get close to 10,000 baht/ month...

Maybe, they aren't purposely exploiting the food market and stereotype of farang in Thailand...maybe they just don't know any better. Maybe, if/when they go grocery shopping they don't know that 250 baht per kilogram of beef is an exploited price, taking advantage of them because they just don't know any better.

Or maybe they know the effects/consequences of exploitation, but they don't care because they don't have to...because they're wealthy enough not to have to care...

On point 4: I live in Phuket and we have some very expensive restaurants here, although not nearly as many as Bangkok. If you are in Property or Marine business then chances are you eat out more than you eat in. At a minimum for a table of two you can spend 1,000 baht if you have a light lunch. I went to a late lunch recently and the bill came to about 4,000. Luckily I did not pick up the check. More and more Phuket is going high end and as Thailand's economy continues to grow so will peoples incomes then their expenditure. 20,000 is a lot for me but not that much if you are in a successful business.

[greenwanderer108]

How many of these Thai graduates have actually labored a full time or even part time job? How many of them have fended and provided for themselves since they were 15? How many of them have taught themselves language, music, art, etc. etc.?? How many have even opened a savings account on their own will? How many of them have ever even paid their own rent? How many of them have proved they're responsible and reliable? How many of them have ever made crucial decisions about their own lives without their parents to puppet them?

I can tell you that all my Thai peers, couzins and friends that are Thai graduates, or soon to be, can't say for themselves what I can say for my own self, experience, and background. And the ones who can say as much or more certainly aren't the ones getting an 8k/month salary.Sure, there are exceptions to everything, but I'm sure you can get my point.

[q]How many of these Thai graduates have actually labored a full time or even part time job? How many of them have fended and provided for themselves since they were 15? How many of them have taught themselves language, music, art, etc. etc.?? How many have even opened a savings account on their own will? How many of them have ever even paid their own rent? How many of them have proved they're responsible and reliable? How many of them have ever made crucial decisions about their own lives without their parents to puppet them?[/q]

I’m working with three Thais here in Rome, two graduates of King Mongkhut and one graduate of Tamasart. They are extremely capable members of our team and doing a great job.

I can’t say how old they where when they started fending for themselves, what drove them to open their first savings account. I can tell you (and confess) they do not pay their own rent. Like me they have their rent paid for them by the company we work for – they also get to keep the residue (Max rent allowance – Actual Rent Paid).

They have certainly made a few crucial life decisions (including coming here to Rome), they may or may not have consulted with their parents, as is their cultural custom (Was it you that was bleating on about imposing western values on others – Doh!)

What I can also tell you is… All three of them went to University AND DID NOT DROP OUT Not dropping out, obviously brought them some rewards.

And here’s another thing. They are living in neighborhoods that most Italians could not afford, they have expense accounts, company cars, flight allowances, free medical insurance, free international schooling for their children, company pension schemes, all their visas and work permits are taken care of and paid for.

These, I remind you are Thais!

Their qualifications, experience and contribution are valued and rewarded at the same rates any other employee of the company we work for.

Perhaps there are bitter and twisted people here in Italy who envy their prosperity and privilege – There must be an Italian version of greenwanderer.

People obsessed with why others have a different life to the one they tell us they themselves are happy to live

Again, get a life greenwanderer.

You’re a mess, and from what you have told us, you are a mess of your own making.

Guesthouse, the more personal you start to get...the less objective and relevant your comments are becomming. That's great and dandy about your three Thai collegues...but as you can see, the focus of my comments was a comparison to Thai university graduates who were settling for 8,000/month salaries...which is absolutely no one who has made a life/living overseas (except the occasional volunteer workers)

University is great for those who have been fortunate to have mommy and daddy wipe their arse through it....anyhow it's completely off topic... So what is it you have against me? One side of you seems completely respectable in that you go through the trouble to actively protest about double pricing standards...as to even create a website....However, the more I hear your ideals, attitudes, and comments on this forum, the less valid your whole movement seems.

You've obviously tried to put yourself on a much higher plane than people like me who---didn't have your opportunities in life, didn't make the same/similar desicions that you made, and think/act like you....yet, at the same time, you claim to believe in equal standards (i.e. fair pricing)...Something just doesn't add up here!

So before you start to feel too full of yourself telling how mixed up I am, you should take a look at your own conflicting values!

Edited April 6, 2006 by greenwanderer108

[GuestHouse]

Greenwanderer.

Let me make this simple, so you can understand it.

Your comments about "Thai University Students' are perhaps the most disparaging I’ve read. They amount to little more than racism (you are after all, attributing a string of negative generalizations to Thais – Can’t wipe their own ass, can’t make a decision on their own, can’t this, can’t that). – You are young man, full of racist filth!

Your views on anyone who earns and spends more than you are similarly negative generalizations. I hold some hope here because I know that your views would change should you ever get a job that paid you a higher income.

You failed to complete the university education that you embarked up, you use the term ‘drop out’, - I understand that to mean 'You started, but you didn’t finish – Failed!'

Of course having failed to complete your university education, you then set about your feeble attempts to undermine the value of this education that defeated you.

You attack people for having/holding western values, ignoring that they are westerners, and then go on to attack Thais, for not complying to your own western values. (Doh!)

So we left with?

You amount to little more than a half educated, racist writhing in your own bitter envy.

We ought to give you some leeway for being young, perhaps you’ll change when your frontal lobes develop, but I’d still advise that you get some help before you get any worse.

Honestly that’s the best advice I can give. Get some help.

You really do need it

[samran]

This post is decending into flaming of other member and is way off topic.

Entertaining all round, but as my dear dad likes to say it is all fun and games until someone loses an eye!

THREAD CLOSED!!!