Khao San Road - Where girls hit over the head with bottles is...normal?

[ebcal]

We often see that most people extend their values as absolutes and that others should have the same values. Many do not think it is worth risking one’s life for, so will say don’t get involved. That is certainly a valid point of view and probably one that most would agree with, however I think we have to be careful not to think that our values are universal and that everyone should act or not act with the same values.

One should indeed assess whether losing one’s life was worth risking to save the girl. Hats off who still feel compelled to help someone and not stand by watching someone helplessly being beaten to death, knowing the risks. But, I can certainly understand those that did not want to risk it too.

We should be careful not to project our values and personal choices as something universal that applies to all. It is a personal choice where there is not necessarily an absolute right or wrong. Of course, on discussion boards, nobody thinks this way and will always say the guy is stupid, rather than only saying, it would not be worth the risk for me. The OP said he would do it again. Some may consider it stupid for themselves and even for others, but only the OP can judge and say what is right for him.

JMHO.

And I see many Monday night quarterbacks who can easily spew out what the OP should have done better or should not have done. It is easy to sit here, read the story calmly, and pick out facts from the story and be able to then point out things done wrong from behind the keyboard, after the fact, probably while casually sipping a drink. It is another thing to be able to stay calm, amidst an atmosphere of adrenaline pumping, bottles flying, people shouting or attacking, and pure chaos. Most can only react more instinctively (unless they have trained themselves beforehand and thought about best approaches beforehand) So, the OP did not have the benefit to think out the smartest, and most logical action, calmly from behind a keyboard, but had to react on instinct during pure chaotic situation. However, that said, there is some good advice from a few posters to think about for the future, about staying calm, about trying to defuse the situation. Something to keep in mind in the future for the OP and others. I am sure the OP will use the situation as a learning experience of what he could have done better.

I cant say I fully agree with the the statement one made “And you can trust that the thugs don't just act for no reason.” I would say there are certainly many cases where it is almost the opposite, often thugs commit violence for little reason, or for reasons that certainly don’t justify the violence. You see it in the news all the time about someone getting angry over seemingly nothing or certainly nothing that would warrant such violence. Someone looked at another the wrong way, a friend talked to other people he did not like, someone accidentally bumped into someone, someone disrespected another in their eyes, or said something negative about another. Especially in Thailand, you read stories all the time about killings over seemingly nothing and how little it seems a life is worth in Thailand. And in this situation, we don’t really know at all what the girl did, so it is presumptuous to assume what she did warranted the attack or not.

That said, it is good for all of us to think about such a situation, what we would do, or better yet, what we should do, with a little forethought.

Edited July 4, 2013 by ebcal

[breadbin]

The line in the beginning got me. The op lingered after the club closed out of curiosity!!!

Seems to me he was looking for a girl!!

To the op, don't get involved with what doesn't concern you. Yes, help people out but the first thing you should have done was to get the girl medical help,

Also, beer bottles are very hard to break on someone's head. I doubt it broke on her head.

Stay out of the bar scene.

[OldChinaHam]

Drugs, wine, women, and song, all in excess.

Add in the lateness of the hour.

A bit of mental instability for working there in the first place.

People go there for the excitement, and they were not disappointed it seems.

I am too old for these real life dramas, nowadays.

If I want to know about someone hit over the head with a beer bottle,

I am happy enough to read about it on TV,

If I don't read about it more than once a decade.

[OldChinaHam]

The line in the beginning got me. The op lingered after the club closed out of curiosity!!!

Seems to me he was looking for a girl!!

To the op, don't get involved with what doesn't concern you. Yes, help people out but the first thing you should have done was to get the girl medical help,

Also, beer bottles are very hard to break on someone's head. I doubt it broke on her head.

Stay out of the bar scene.

You are right that staying clear of the bar scene is wise.

Decades ago, the bar scene was kinder and gentler.

Not exactly genteel,

Just gentler.

[TheSpade]

I've spent a lot of time in KSR in the past and never seen any violence or major trouble. It is a dump full of stupidly drunk people but this sort of thing can happen anywhere there is a lot of people who are drinking and on holiday.

Still plenty of good Thai bars and clubs in the area worth visiting, it's not all just backpacker scum and not all the girls there are hookers though if they were in The Club they might have been but not necessarily.

[megaworldasia]

Here we go again. A naïve foreigner applying western logic, and morality, to a Thai situation. the first thing you need to understand is that you are dealing with the criminal classes of Thailand, the trailer trash, and they have a different set of standards - when it comes to violence - than your average, let's have clean, fair fight westerner. They never fight fair. They attack in a group and never front on. When someone goes down that's when they really get stuck in. Do you know why? I'll tell you. It's because they want to maim, or hurt, their victim so badly so that they won't come looking for payback. Revenge is part of Thai culture. When you understand this you will avoid the farang entertainment areas where the criminal classes of Thailand making their living.

[Scottythai]

I wonder if KSR had one of those huge red banners that said SAFE ZONE it would have made a difference......

[paddyjenkins]

Thailand seems to be degenerating into a lawless place ruled by corruption and packs of psycholpathic thugs. What you saw was in many ways typically Thai. I am afraid I prefer other countries in Asia to Thailand. But when i do visit Thailand this means I tend to be in touristy areas and I keep the locals at arms length, much as I would with street dogs or other animlals. They are dangerous, unpredictable, can attack for no reason with shocking violence, in gangs and using weapons. Even outside Thailand, while I would not tolerate any of their aggression or hostility, I still keep a distance when I come across Thais.

What you assumed was you were in a civilised environment...you weren't and never really are in Thailand and until they find a way to better educate their population then their behaviour will continue to be almost more animal than human. Thailand is a country known for little more than prostitution, violence, scams and spicey food.

[disagree]

Thailand seems to be degenerating into a lawless place ruled by corruption and packs of psycholpathic thugs. What you saw was in many ways typically Thai. I am afraid I prefer other countries in Asia to Thailand. But when i do visit Thailand this means I tend to be in touristy areas and I keep the locals at arms length, much as I would with street dogs or other animlals. They are dangerous, unpredictable, can attack for no reason with shocking violence, in gangs and using weapons. Even outside Thailand, while I would not tolerate any of their aggression or hostility, I still keep a distance when I come across Thais.

What you assumed was you were in a civilised environment...you weren't and never really are in Thailand and until they find a way to better educate their population then their behaviour will continue to be almost more animal than human. Thailand is a country known for little more than prostitution, violence, scams and spicey food.

I'm sorry, but that is a bunch of hogwash. If you hang out in the red light districts and drug areas, there's not much to expect; in ANY country. I recently watched a documentary on what happens during one(!) night in a German Red Light district.. oh boy, oh boy; it's quite calm here in comparison.

But your prejudice against a nation of people based on the bad apples that make the news is more than inappropriate, and so is your advice; since scammers especially tend to target tourists - no matter which country - even in police state Cuba. Thailand is not degenerating anywhere, it's your perception of it that is; and you keeping your distance is not going to make it any better.

My personal perception of Thailand is that it's safer than pretty much 100% of the countries I have visited so far, and I cannot say that I have been scammed here more than in any other country ( a doubled Taxi fare as beginner maybe; but even that was less expensive than let's say in Bulgaria ). The conversations I have with Thais are quite interesting. But if you only hang out in the abyss ( Pattaya, KSR, Patong, Cowboy, Nana, Patpong, etc. ), and read the news from the abyss, and converse with the scum that frequents the abyss, then please don't judge the 95% of locals who have nothing to do with it.

Edited July 6, 2013 by disagree

[ava15]

Amen

[paddyjenkins]

Thailand seems to be degenerating into a lawless place ruled by corruption and packs of psycholpathic thugs. What you saw was in many ways typically Thai. I am afraid I prefer other countries in Asia to Thailand. But when i do visit Thailand this means I tend to be in touristy areas and I keep the locals at arms length, much as I would with street dogs or other animlals. They are dangerous, unpredictable, can attack for no reason with shocking violence, in gangs and using weapons. Even outside Thailand, while I would not tolerate any of their aggression or hostility, I still keep a distance when I come across Thais.

What you assumed was you were in a civilised environment...you weren't and never really are in Thailand and until they find a way to better educate their population then their behaviour will continue to be almost more animal than human. Thailand is a country known for little more than prostitution, violence, scams and spicey food.

I'm sorry, but that is a bunch of hogwash. If you hang out in the red light districts and drug areas, there's not much to expect; in ANY country. I recently watched a documentary on what happens during one(!) night in a German Red Light district.. oh boy, oh boy; it's quite calm here in comparison.

But your prejudice against a nation of people based on the bad apples that make the news is more than inappropriate, and so is your advice; since scammers especially tend to target tourists - no matter which country - even in police state Cuba. Thailand is not degenerating anywhere, it's your perception of it that is; and you keeping your distance is not going to make it any better.

My personal perception of Thailand is that it's safer than pretty much 100% of the countries I have visited so far, and I cannot say that I have been scammed here more than in any other country ( a doubled Taxi fare as beginner maybe; but even that was less expensive than let's say in Bulgaria ). The conversations I have with Thais are quite interesting. But if you only hang out in the abyss ( Pattaya, KSR, Patong, Cowboy, Nana, Patpong, etc. ), and read the news from the abyss, and converse with the scum that frequents the abyss, then please don't judge the 95% of locals who have nothing to do with it.

sounds like politically correct hogwash to me.

hong kong, singapore, malaysia...never been scammed, never felt threatened, never sensed hostility, never encountered racism, never witnessed violence, do read a little of the crime but not on a huge scale, never had a problem with taxi drivers....

cant say any of those things about thailand, although i cant say i frequent the rural areas so maybe there are civilised corners but i stick to my view that thailand is undergoing a kind of cultural degeneration and all through fault of its own

[salavan]

your getting some bad comments from the people that reply to your post. its quite common for anyone posting here to be shot down in flames, most of the people who reply to a post here are ex pats living in thailand and they have lost all principles like the locals, good for you to try to help the girl, the world needs more people like you not cowardly shits that turn a blind eye to everything

[disagree]

sounds like politically correct hogwash to me.

hong kong, singapore, malaysia...never been scammed, never felt threatened, never sensed hostility, never encountered racism, never witnessed violence, do read a little of the crime but not on a huge scale, never had a problem with taxi drivers....

cant say any of those things about thailand, although i cant say i frequent the rural areas so maybe there are civilised corners but i stick to my view that thailand is undergoing a kind of cultural degeneration and all through fault of its own

Malaysia being on your list clearly surprises me, I guess you might not travel with Jewish friends. Singapore and Hong Kong being well regulated, well funded ( banks ) and expensive city areas have their other clear downsides, as in terms of overcrowding, price and friendliness. But the thugs do exist in the poorer areas as well.

In my book it's comparing apples with oranges as I would never want to live there, and comparing 5 million people city-states to a 65 million people country; we're still talking about 95% of the population which is about 61.75 million people you put under your umbrella of hate.

I was actually happy to be back in Bangkok based on the friendliness of people I talk to here, the easiness of life and my personal feeling of safety even at 4 in the morning on a dark street. The proximity of vacation areas where I'm left alone, the affordability of pricing, the intelligent people I try to converse with from existing and upcoming tech companies and random friendly strangers I spend drinking evenings with in the outskirts of Thailand. But hey, you go out and judge everybody here based on your own stories, and I'll continue to refuse to judge all the people in one basket based on my limited understanding - we'll see who'll have a better time.

Also a cultural degeneration from what? From when Pattaya was built as American Military Entertainment center? What do you base this 'trend' on? Or do you base it on the fact that more and more news are actually being translated to English? Because even from the longterm ex-pats, all you hear year in year out is 'same old, same old'.

Can you define the term cultural degeneration? Is it based on mixing with other cultures? Or can it be stopped by actually adding new ones? Is it connected with the arts department of the country, or is it based on the attitude of Taxi drivers hanging around in front of popular hotels?

your getting some bad comments from the people that reply to your post. its quite common for anyone posting here to be shot down in flames, most of the people who reply to a post here are ex pats living in thailand and they have lost all principles like the locals, good for you to try to help the girl, the world needs more people like you not cowardly shits that turn a blind eye to everything

It's a bit insulting to be generalized like that seeing that the majority of comments are exactly not about turning a blind eye. It's not helping.

Edited July 6, 2013 by disagree

[wolf5370]

Sounded like the typical night in the "Hood" in Los Angles! Stranger gets in involved in a fight he has no idea who the players are and gets bit. One thing I learned a long time ago, you better know who the players are and street rules that run it. Sounds like you had no clue who was who in this fight and should not have taken sides which apparently you did. It seems to me by the reaction by the "Boys in Brown" they knew the players better than you. Even by-standers said move on and don't look. They too seemed to understand not to get involved either except you. Thais will surprise you. They will quickly get involved when they know there is an injustice, but rarely when they know the players and it is a rivalry or personal matter between two people. They usually let them settle it themselves.

So don't let this lesson in Thai life discourage you from coming back.

Doesn't sound to me like he took sides at all. Sounds to me like he tried to protect an incapacitated girl from possibly being beat to death. I would have done the same thing. What the hell is the matter with people on Thai Visa anyway?

Hear hear - we all know the dangers, we all know Thais don't like getting involved and why - this doesn't mean we have to (or should) throw away our morals. If you can live with watching agog or crossing the road, then that's between you and your conscience; it doesn't make you smarter or more locally attuned to do so - nor give you the moral high ground over someone that can not stand by and watch a girl get bludgeoned.

He didn't run in and attack the attacker. He stood between the attacker and the victim. This is brave and honourable. He did not take sides other than the moral one - he tried to protect the life of another human being that was unable to defend themselves - this is what differentiates us from beasts! His mistake was to grab the attacker (or his brothers more so perhaps) - the locals see a foreigner grabbing a Thai girl (they may be pimps or just drunk locals - we will never know) - but even then only got a slap, not a knife or a bullet.

It does not just happen here in Thailand - it does not even just happen in places like KSR. Just three months ago a car skidded to a halt in the middle of the road outside my house here in Chiang Mai. The door opened and I could hear screaming - I could see clearly from my desk in my bedroom. The windows were black so I could see nothing inside (door was not open enough and poor angle). Screaming was a women screaming and shouting, but it was obvious it was frightened rather than aggressive by the tone. Then a Thai man in his late thirties or so jumped out the passenger side, walked around to the driver's side (side facing me with door open a bit) and shouted aggressively through the door. He then proceeded to drag a screaming girl out of the driver's seat by her hair - and drag her across the road (she was nearly hit by a car also - it actually spun her it was so close). Three more girls piled out the back of the car solemnly and went to the back (it was a 4 door pick-up) and pulled out suit cases.

I live next door to a police station - there is also moo bahns on both sides of the road with 24 hr security. The 3 girls in that had poured out the back shuffled off with suit cases to the police station. The screaming continued - as the girl sat in the road ( where she had landed after the car had spun her). The guy paced back and forth to the car - started it twice making as if to drive off - then returned to shout at her and kick or slap the air in front of her - I was watching very carefully at this point (had got dressed in case I needed to go out). A BiB came out of the station, but just stood and watched it for maybe ten minutes then walked back in. Didn't even get them to get out of the road or move the car - cars were still whizzing past, swerving around both car and people in the road.

At this point the guy, he was obviously quite drunk (maybe drugged up - I don't know but he was swaying and slurring a lot), swearing in Thai very loudly started to actually hit the cowling girl with his flat hand and pulling her hair (to keep her in range it seemed).

Up to this point I was very uncomfortable, but not willing to step in. The cop had been there and it had been mostly bluster and shouting. Now it had gone to far for me. I did the easiest and safest thing for me to do - I walked out on to my balcony and shouted down "Oi!" - they both looked up - I stood in the Superman stance (arms folded across the chest) frowning - he got the point and let her go. After a while she joined the three girls and awaited a taxi and the guy drove off.

It was practicality speaking a silly thing to do - interrupt an argument between two Thais (possibly in a relationship - or maybe she was on the game or he thought so - could have even been a four Thai hitchhikers and a "friendly" driver giving a lift that wanted a payment for his favour - I have no idea) - and showed where I lived. Maybe the police station being next door and/or the local security helped with that - or maybe it just allowed him a window to escape without losing face (I'm a farang after all). However, I was willing to go down and intercede if I had to - I could not live with myself otherwise.

In the UK, from where I hail, I have many times ended up in a position of aggression protecting strangers or people I barely knew - not that I go out looking for trouble, but in the UK any town at night these days is full with tossers happy to lay in to some poor bugger because he looked at one of them as he walked by, or isn wearing the wrong scarf, etc. Society can not function if we all look the other way.

[disagree]

I walked out on to my balcony and shouted down "Oi!" - they both looked up - I stood in the Superman stance (arms folded across the chest) frowning - he got the point and let her go

What a surreal story with the suitcases and such. I like your element of surprise

[lemoncake]

Hmm I guess I might be reading far to much into this but why would a CEO drink on Khao san? Why not chill somewere else? Or were you looking to see how some of the cheaper areas are in Bangkok and got a shock when you realise it's not the fun you thought it would be?

Better question is why would CEO stay at HOSTEL?

[Midfield General]

Well done to the original poster for having the common decency to step in and try and help somebody obviously in distress and needing assistance.

You will never know the full story behind the attack and you were lucky the gang of Thai men who came over did not do you and your brother some real damage.

But at the end of the day at least you tried to make a bad situation a bit better.

[iancnx]

In 8 years never been to KSR, and doubt I ever will! Sorry for the girl getting hurt. From what was described she could have been killed, who knows maybe she did die from the head injuries...... Now doesn't that put things into perspective .....

[Loptr]

What the hell is the matter with people on Thai Visa anyway?

I'll answer: some feel superior in their assimilation into Thainess. By living in Thailand they know more, know better, are more Thai, these people feel they truly understand all around them, they are at one with Thailand. No other westerner is as in tune with Thailand as them... As a result they have discarded their moral compass, lost intelligent perspective and instead developed a flawed sense of right and wrong not representative of an intelligent civilised human being.

They may join this forum just to 'disagree' with anyone else with an opinion on Thailand and its issues....

There term is misanthropes. They wash up on the shores of Thailand having burned their bridges or having been run out of their home countries and hold a general disdain for anything civilized. That is why they fit in so well here. Birds of a feather so to speak.

[Donnie Brasco]

We often see that most people extend their values as absolutes and that others should have the same values. Many do not think it is worth risking one’s life for, so will say don’t get involved. That is certainly a valid point of view and probably one that most would agree with, however I think we have to be careful not to think that our values are universal and that everyone should act or not act with the same values.

One should indeed assess whether losing one’s life was worth risking to save the girl. Hats off who still feel compelled to help someone and not stand by watching someone helplessly being beaten to death, knowing the risks. But, I can certainly understand those that did not want to risk it too.

We should be careful not to project our values and personal choices as something universal that applies to all. It is a personal choice where there is not necessarily an absolute right or wrong. Of course, on discussion boards, nobody thinks this way and will always say the guy is stupid, rather than only saying, it would not be worth the risk for me. The OP said he would do it again. Some may consider it stupid for themselves and even for others, but only the OP can judge and say what is right for him.

JMHO.

And I see many Monday night quarterbacks who can easily spew out what the OP should have done better or should not have done. It is easy to sit here, read the story calmly, and pick out facts from the story and be able to then point out things done wrong from behind the keyboard, after the fact, probably while casually sipping a drink. It is another thing to be able to stay calm, amidst an atmosphere of adrenaline pumping, bottles flying, people shouting or attacking, and pure chaos. Most can only react more instinctively (unless they have trained themselves beforehand and thought about best approaches beforehand) So, the OP did not have the benefit to think out the smartest, and most logical action, calmly from behind a keyboard, but had to react on instinct during pure chaotic situation. However, that said, there is some good advice from a few posters to think about for the future, about staying calm, about trying to defuse the situation. Something to keep in mind in the future for the OP and others. I am sure the OP will use the situation as a learning experience of what he could have done better.

I cant say I fully agree with the the statement one made “And you can trust that the thugs don't just act for no reason.” I would say there are certainly many cases where it is almost the opposite, often thugs commit violence for little reason, or for reasons that certainly don’t justify the violence. You see it in the news all the time about someone getting angry over seemingly nothing or certainly nothing that would warrant such violence. Someone looked at another the wrong way, a friend talked to other people he did not like, someone accidentally bumped into someone, someone disrespected another in their eyes, or said something negative about another. Especially in Thailand, you read stories all the time about killings over seemingly nothing and how little it seems a life is worth in Thailand. And in this situation, we don’t really know at all what the girl did, so it is presumptuous to assume what she did warranted the attack or not.

That said, it is good for all of us to think about such a situation, what we would do, or better yet, what we should do, with a little forethought.

A really excellent post.

Enlightened point of view IMHO.

[PoodMaiDai]

Stay out of Thai affairs. It will never end well for you, and as you have seen, everyone will turn on you. I've even seen the victim turn against a falang who was trying to help her.