Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

It's actually an interesting idea... 200k, if able to support household usage, would pay its self off in 5 years 7 mo. as we spend aprox 3k per month in electric bills.

Even if if needing to do maintenance or even if needing to replace after 8 yrs.. still puts us up apex 87k

If possible to sell any back to the grid, would be even better. Although would never advise anyone to take out a loan to set up.

If wanting more details about this, anyone know who to contact?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

See post 57

Well as a rough calculation which I am doing intoxicated 3000 baht/mo at 3.7 b/kWh = 811 kWh/mo = 27 kWh/day so at the (generous IMO) specific output quoted in the pdf of 3.75 kWh/kWp we get a need for 7,200 Watts of panel to meet your needs. Anyone have any idea what is the cost now here baht/watt for panels?

  • Replies 95
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Posted

Thanks cloud hopper, lets see if anyone has an idea based on your estimated calculations.

Also well noted that this is just in the idea phase... Hopefully will end up being more than just a 'sound bite'

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Posted

200,000 bht per panel? Surely some mistake there, seems way too high.

200k for a small system maybe.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

We had a quote of only ฿70,000 for the entire installation. ฿200,000 per panel is ridiculous. That would take 16 years to pay off (assuming and average electricity bill of ฿1,000/month).

You running a family house on 1000 baht a month?

Posted

My neighbour and I are working on a scam. I will put some dummy panels on my roof and get the 2-way meter. Then we run a 15A extension cord from his place to mine, he buys power at B3.7/kWh and I sell it back to EGAT at B6.6.

Of course the profit margin will drop as the price he (and everybody else) pays goes up, but should be cream for 6 months or so, settling down to a nice steady income.

If that sounds ridiculous, so is paying 2.5-3 times the wholesale price of energy for domestic solar producers.

If you've thought about it, no doubt it's already been done.

  • Like 1
Posted

200,000 bht per panel? Surely some mistake there, seems way too high.

200k for a small system maybe.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

We had a quote of only ฿70,000 for the entire installation. ฿200,000 per panel is ridiculous. That would take 16 years to pay off (assuming and average electricity bill of ฿1,000/month).

You running a family house on 1000 baht a month?

Easily if you don't use a/c. Mine is closer to B900 with f/freezer, water heater and auto washer. Fans running continuously.

Posted

200,000 bht per panel? Surely some mistake there, seems way too high.

200k for a small system maybe.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

We had a quote of only ฿70,000 for the entire installation. ฿200,000 per panel is ridiculous. That would take 16 years to pay off (assuming and average electricity bill of ฿1,000/month).
You running a family house on 1000 baht a month?

Easily if you don't use a/c. Mine is closer to B900 with f/freezer, water heater and auto washer. Fans running continuously.

How many in a family?

Posted
Easily if you don't use a/c. Mine is closer to B900 with f/freezer, water heater and auto washer. Fans running continuously.

How many in a family?

Just 2 of us now, but was similar usage with 4 (with solar HW then). A big advantage is living close to the sea on Samui, with cooling breezes most of the day.

Posted

Let's assume 12 panels X 280W for an average output of 10 kWh/day will cost 94,800b plus all the supports, wiring, inverter/controller and installation for a total budget of 200,000 baht. So if rates go to 5b/kWh next year or so as already forecast then a modest farang household using 10 kWh/day or 300 kWh/mo might have a bill of 1500 b/mo. This would require 11 years to break even not counting depreciation, maintenance etc.

Posted

Let's assume 12 panels X 280W for an average output of 10 kWh/day will cost 94,800b plus all the supports, wiring, inverter/controller and installation for a total budget of 200,000 baht. So if rates go to 5b/kWh next year or so as already forecast then a modest farang household using 10 kWh/day or 300 kWh/mo might have a bill of 1500 b/mo. This would require 11 years to break even not counting depreciation, maintenance etc.

Cloudhopper,

I think you've forgotten to factor in the generation tariff!

10kWh/day produced by the system = 3,650kWh/annum @ 6.69B/kWh = 24,419 Baht/annum AND

Say you consume electricity 50% during daylight and 50% in darkness, then the PV system will provide 'free' power during the daytime, halving your existing electricity bill to 750 Baht/month, a further 9,000 Baht/annum.

Total saving/annum is circa 33,420 Baht, giving a payback of around six years. You've then 19 years of 'profit'.

This does of course exclude maintenance etc. and the depreciation in the performance of the panels etc.

There are two important points to note:

1. It is not clear if the proposed generation tariff will increase in line with inflation, as it does in the UK over the 25 year period.

2. I have not seen any proposed 'export' tariff, whereby any excess electricity produced is fed back into the grid for use by others.

N.B. For those discussing solar thermal systems, i.e. hot water, there is a device marketed in the UK that will divert any of the surplus electricity generated by a PV system to an immersion heater in a water tank, effectively giving you 'free' hot water. For details see:

http://www.swithenbanks.co.uk/Solar_Photovoltaic_Equipment/1130719/Immersun_by_4eco_-_FREE_hot_water_from_your_PVs.html

AWT1968

Posted

Let's assume 12 panels X 280W for an average output of 10 kWh/day will cost 94,800b plus all the supports, wiring, inverter/controller and installation for a total budget of 200,000 baht. So if rates go to 5b/kWh next year or so as already forecast then a modest farang household using 10 kWh/day or 300 kWh/mo might have a bill of 1500 b/mo. This would require 11 years to break even not counting depreciation, maintenance etc.

Cloudhopper,

I think you've forgotten to factor in the generation tariff!

10kWh/day produced by the system = 3,650kWh/annum @ 6.69B/kWh = 24,419 Baht/annum AND

Say you consume electricity 50% during daylight and 50% in darkness, then the PV system will provide 'free' power during the daytime, halving your existing electricity bill to 750 Baht/month, a further 9,000 Baht/annum.

Total saving/annum is circa 33,420 Baht, giving a payback of around six years. You've then 19 years of 'profit'.

This does of course exclude maintenance etc. and the depreciation in the performance of the panels etc.

There are two important points to note:

1. It is not clear if the proposed generation tariff will increase in line with inflation, as it does in the UK over the 25 year period.

2. I have not seen any proposed 'export' tariff, whereby any excess electricity produced is fed back into the grid for use by others.

N.B. For those discussing solar thermal systems, i.e. hot water, there is a device marketed in the UK that will divert any of the surplus electricity generated by a PV system to an immersion heater in a water tank, effectively giving you 'free' hot water. For details see:

http://www.swithenbanks.co.uk/Solar_Photovoltaic_Equipment/1130719/Immersun_by_4eco_-_FREE_hot_water_from_your_PVs.html

AWT1968

Magic panels that sell all the electricity they make, and supply free power to the householder at the same time!

And are only economically viable because the purchase rate is about 3 times what it is worth, forcing up the price of electricity for all consumers.

  • Like 1
Posted

Magic panels that sell all the electricity they make, and supply free power to the householder at the same time!

And are only economically viable because the purchase rate is about 3 times what it is worth, forcing up the price of electricity for all consumers.

that's exactly what is happening in Germany.

average price €UR 0.264/kWh = THB 11.82/kWh.

Posted (edited)

Let's assume 12 panels X 280W for an average output of 10 kWh/day will cost 94,800b plus all the supports, wiring, inverter/controller and installation for a total budget of 200,000 baht. So if rates go to 5b/kWh next year or so as already forecast then a modest farang household using 10 kWh/day or 300 kWh/mo might have a bill of 1500 b/mo. This would require 11 years to break even not counting depreciation, maintenance etc.

Cloudhopper,

I think you've forgotten to factor in the generation tariff!

10kWh/day produced by the system = 3,650kWh/annum @ 6.69B/kWh = 24,419 Baht/annum AND

Say you consume electricity 50% during daylight and 50% in darkness, then the PV system will provide 'free' power during the daytime, halving your existing electricity bill to 750 Baht/month, a further 9,000 Baht/annum.

How you consume and sell back the produced power at the same time is beyond my understanding.

If you produce 10Kwh and you consume 5 Kwh, than you have only 5 Kwh to sell.

Edited by jbrain
Posted

AWT1968 your economic analysis is hilarious I think the energy ministry has a spot for you. Or the bankers wanting to make loans on panels.

My only experience with PV in LOS is a 750W array on my sail boat, and although we only live aboard during the 'sunny' season I see many days of vastly reduced output due to thin cirrus cloud layers and puffy low level fair weather cumulus clouds. PV in the SW monsoon would be hopeless. In my experience a specific yield of 3 Wh/Wp (meaning a yield of 3 Watt-hours/day for every watt of panel capacity) is very optimistic even in the NE monsoon even with no tree or other shading all through the day.

  • Like 1
Posted

While salesmen will give you great, if unrealistic, outlay recovery times, there are a few other factors to consider.

How much will your house insurance rise with B200,000 of fragile assets added?

What maintenance/cleaning is required, if any? ".... it is vitally important that you take steps to ensure the seals are replaced regularly to keep the moisture out." http://www.ccmep.org/solar-panels-suffer-storm-damage/

What about the capital cost? B200,000 invested @ 9% would pay your B1500/m energy bills. Hard to get 9%, but whatever you could get has to be reduced from your "profit".

Posted

Let's assume 12 panels X 280W for an average output of 10 kWh/day will cost 94,800b plus all the supports, wiring, inverter/controller and installation for a total budget of 200,000 baht. So if rates go to 5b/kWh next year or so as already forecast then a modest farang household using 10 kWh/day or 300 kWh/mo might have a bill of 1500 b/mo. This would require 11 years to break even not counting depreciation, maintenance etc.

Cloudhopper,

I think you've forgotten to factor in the generation tariff!

10kWh/day produced by the system = 3,650kWh/annum @ 6.69B/kWh = 24,419 Baht/annum AND

Say you consume electricity 50% during daylight and 50% in darkness, then the PV system will provide 'free' power during the daytime, halving your existing electricity bill to 750 Baht/month, a further 9,000 Baht/annum.

How you consume and sell back the produced power at the same time is beyond my understanding.

If you produce 10Kwh and you consume 5 Kwh, than you have only 5 Kwh to sell.

In the UK, you get paid for the amount of electricity you generate, regardless of how much you use or export. It would appear that the proposed Thai system would be similar.

So, even if I use all the power generated, I'll still get paid for it-and I won't be drawing from the grid, reducing my bill. The only electricity from the grid I'll be using is at night when the PV installation is not producing anything or when it is VERY overcast.

I have a 4kWp system here in the UK, my electricity bill has reduced by a third and the PV system generates £1,000+ per annum. I can get away with a much smaller system in Thailand to meet all my electricity needs and produce a decent return.

I hope this clarifies things.

AWT

Posted

While salesmen will give you great, if unrealistic, outlay recovery times, there are a few other factors to consider.

How much will your house insurance rise with B200,000 of fragile assets added?

What maintenance/cleaning is required, if any? ".... it is vitally important that you take steps to ensure the seals are replaced regularly to keep the moisture out." http://www.ccmep.org/solar-panels-suffer-storm-damage/

What about the capital cost? B200,000 invested @ 9% would pay your B1500/m energy bills. Hard to get 9%, but whatever you could get has to be reduced from your "profit".

OzMick,

I note your concerns.

Here in the UK all solar installers have to be accredited, spending several thousand pounds in the process, and have to follow strict procedures in producing estimated paybacks for customers. There are also many government-backed websites that provide online calculators for people to use too. As a director of a renewables firm, and an owner of a PV system,I can safely say that I believe the projections given. However, that is not to say that there aren't a load of cowboys out there too.

The feed in (generation) tariffs were severely reduced in the UK in late 2011 after commercial investors rushed in to build large solar farms given the guaranteed high rates of return that the tariffs provided. If PV panels gave such poor financial returns, then these groups would not have entered the market and it would still be an option only for 'greenies'. I do acknowledge that they are very expensive for the electricity they produce, and hence the need for government subsidy to promote the panels.

Not sure about home insurance premiums rising buy a huge amount-the minimum re-building cost provided is way more than what is needed, for example.

PV systems are essentially maintenance free, although panels may benefit from a wash during the dry season to remove dirt etc. All junction boxes and connectors on PV panels have an external IP rating (65?) and are sealed to the underside of the panels, so water ingress should not be a problem. In my experience I've never heard of seals failing and needing replacing. Whilst panels have 10yr manufacturing guarantees, inverters (cost between £400-£900 typically) only have 5 year guarantees, although extended guarantees can be provided. Provided the contractor installs DC and AC isolators, an inverter can be quickly swapped for another should the need arise.

I agree with your comment regarding capital cost-taking out a loan is obviously going to impact the return on investment, whilst using cash in the bank to buy a system means you can't use that money towards a car, for example.

Sorry for the long post.

AWT

Posted

In the UK, you get paid for the amount of electricity you generate, regardless of how much you use or export. It would appear that the proposed Thai system would be similar.

So, even if I use all the power generated, I'll still get paid for it-and I won't be drawing from the grid, reducing my bill. The only electricity from the grid I'll be using is at night when the PV installation is not producing anything or when it is VERY overcast.

I have a 4kWp system here in the UK, my electricity bill has reduced by a third and the PV system generates £1,000+ per annum. I can get away with a much smaller system in Thailand to meet all my electricity needs and produce a decent return.

I hope this clarifies things.

AWT

i don't claim to know anything about the UK system but in oz your system is fitted with a 2 way meter. You are only paid for the excess of power generated after personal usage - and the way you describe it is completely illogical.

BTW the new meters being fitted, including to non-solar homes are "smart" meters with a variable time dependent rate. Usage at peak load periods, when solar is not working, will be charged at a much higher rate commensurate with the price paid to producers.

Posted (edited)

In the UK, you get paid for the amount of electricity you generate, regardless of how much you use or export. It would appear that the proposed Thai system would be similar.

So, even if I use all the power generated, I'll still get paid for it-and I won't be drawing from the grid, reducing my bill. The only electricity from the grid I'll be using is at night when the PV installation is not producing anything or when it is VERY overcast.

I have a 4kWp system here in the UK, my electricity bill has reduced by a third and the PV system generates £1,000+ per annum. I can get away with a much smaller system in Thailand to meet all my electricity needs and produce a decent return.

I hope this clarifies things.

AWT

i don't claim to know anything about the UK system but in oz your system is fitted with a 2 way meter. You are only paid for the excess of power generated after personal usage - and the way you describe it is completely illogical.

BTW the new meters being fitted, including to non-solar homes are "smart" meters with a variable time dependent rate. Usage at peak load periods, when solar is not working, will be charged at a much higher rate commensurate with the price paid to producers.

I agree with you, I've never heard about a solar reimbursement system working like that anywhere in the world.

If that would be the case, one would install batteries, so that he can use all the electricity generated, so not a single dime to pay to the utillity company, and get paid for it at a premium rate without uploading a single Kw to the grid.

People would be rich on the back of the government in no time.

I'm sure AWT1968 is confused there.

Edited by jbrain
Posted

In the UK, you get paid for the amount of electricity you generate, regardless of how much you use or export. It would appear that the proposed Thai system would be similar.

So, even if I use all the power generated, I'll still get paid for it-and I won't be drawing from the grid, reducing my bill. The only electricity from the grid I'll be using is at night when the PV installation is not producing anything or when it is VERY overcast.

I have a 4kWp system here in the UK, my electricity bill has reduced by a third and the PV system generates £1,000+ per annum. I can get away with a much smaller system in Thailand to meet all my electricity needs and produce a decent return.

I hope this clarifies things.

AWT

i don't claim to know anything about the UK system but in oz your system is fitted with a 2 way meter. You are only paid for the excess of power generated after personal usage - and the way you describe it is completely illogical.

BTW the new meters being fitted, including to non-solar homes are "smart" meters with a variable time dependent rate. Usage at peak load periods, when solar is not working, will be charged at a much higher rate commensurate with the price paid to producers.

I agree with you, I've never heard about a solar reimbursement system working like that anywhere in the world.

If that would be the case, one would install batteries, so that he can use all the electricity generated, so not a single dime to pay to the utillity company, and get paid for it at a premium rate without uploading a single Kw to the grid.

People would be rich on the back of the government in no time.

I'm sure AWT1968 is confused there.

Not confused at all:

"How FITs work
How-Feed-in-Tariffs-work.gif

If you are eligible to receive FITs you will benefit in three ways:

  • Generation tariff: your energy supplier will pay you a set rate for each unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. Once your system has been registered, the tariff levels are guaranteed for the period of the tariff (up to 20 years) and are index-linked.
  • Export tariff: you will get a further 4.64p/kWh from your energy supplier for each unit you export back to the electricity grid, so you can sell any electricity you generate but don't use yourself. This rate is the same for all technologies. At some stage smart meters will be installed to measure what you export, but until then it is estimated as being 50% of the electricity you generate (only systems above 30kWp need to have an export meter fitted, and a domestic system is unlikely to be that big).
  • Energy bill savings: you will be making savings on your electricity bills because generating electricity to power your appliances means you don’t have to buy as much electricity from your energy supplier. The amount you save will vary depending how much of the electricity you use on site.

Tariff rates

Once you are receiving Feed-In Tariffs, the rate you get will increase in line with inflation in accordance with the Retail Price Index (RPI). ). The tables below summarise the latest tariffs available for each technology. For the full list of tariff rates visit the Ofgem web site."

Source: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Getting-money-back/Feed-In-Tariffs-scheme-FITs

In late 2011 when PV panel prices had dropped substantially and the tariff was at its original level, people were getting returns of around 15%. The tariffs have now been re-aligned in line with the reduction in costs, and the margin is now 5-7%.

Posted

In the UK, you get paid for the amount of electricity you generate, regardless of how much you use or export. It would appear that the proposed Thai system would be similar.

So, even if I use all the power generated, I'll still get paid for it-and I won't be drawing from the grid, reducing my bill. The only electricity from the grid I'll be using is at night when the PV installation is not producing anything or when it is VERY overcast.

I have a 4kWp system here in the UK, my electricity bill has reduced by a third and the PV system generates £1,000+ per annum. I can get away with a much smaller system in Thailand to meet all my electricity needs and produce a decent return.

I hope this clarifies things.

AWT

i don't claim to know anything about the UK system but in oz your system is fitted with a 2 way meter. You are only paid for the excess of power generated after personal usage - and the way you describe it is completely illogical.

BTW the new meters being fitted, including to non-solar homes are "smart" meters with a variable time dependent rate. Usage at peak load periods, when solar is not working, will be charged at a much higher rate commensurate with the price paid to producers.

I agree with you, I've never heard about a solar reimbursement system working like that anywhere in the world.

If that would be the case, one would install batteries, so that he can use all the electricity generated, so not a single dime to pay to the utillity company, and get paid for it at a premium rate without uploading a single Kw to the grid.

People would be rich on the back of the government in no time.

I'm sure AWT1968 is confused there.

Not confused at all:

"How FITs work
How-Feed-in-Tariffs-work.gif

If you are eligible to receive FITs you will benefit in three ways:

  • Generation tariff: your energy supplier will pay you a set rate for each unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. Once your system has been registered, the tariff levels are guaranteed for the period of the tariff (up to 20 years) and are index-linked.
  • Export tariff: you will get a further 4.64p/kWh from your energy supplier for each unit you export back to the electricity grid, so you can sell any electricity you generate but don't use yourself. This rate is the same for all technologies. At some stage smart meters will be installed to measure what you export, but until then it is estimated as being 50% of the electricity you generate (only systems above 30kWp need to have an export meter fitted, and a domestic system is unlikely to be that big).
  • Energy bill savings: you will be making savings on your electricity bills because generating electricity to power your appliances means you don’t have to buy as much electricity from your energy supplier. The amount you save will vary depending how much of the electricity you use on site.

Tariff rates

Once you are receiving Feed-In Tariffs, the rate you get will increase in line with inflation in accordance with the Retail Price Index (RPI). ). The tables below summarise the latest tariffs available for each technology. For the full list of tariff rates visit the Ofgem web site."

Source: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Getting-money-back/Feed-In-Tariffs-scheme-FITs

In late 2011 when PV panel prices had dropped substantially and the tariff was at its original level, people were getting returns of around 15%. The tariffs have now been re-aligned in line with the reduction in costs, and the margin is now 5-7%.

Thanks, you just gave us a good explanation as why the governments are in such a debt. biggrin.png

  • Like 1
Posted

Not confused at all:

"How FITs work
How-Feed-in-Tariffs-work.gif

If you are eligible to receive FITs you will benefit in three ways:

  • Generation tariff: your energy supplier will pay you a set rate for each unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. Once your system has been registered, the tariff levels are guaranteed for the period of the tariff (up to 20 years) and are index-linked.
  • Export tariff: you will get a further 4.64p/kWh from your energy supplier for each unit you export back to the electricity grid, so you can sell any electricity you generate but don't use yourself. This rate is the same for all technologies. At some stage smart meters will be installed to measure what you export, but until then it is estimated as being 50% of the electricity you generate (only systems above 30kWp need to have an export meter fitted, and a domestic system is unlikely to be that big).
  • Energy bill savings: you will be making savings on your electricity bills because generating electricity to power your appliances means you don’t have to buy as much electricity from your energy supplier. The amount you save will vary depending how much of the electricity you use on site.

Tariff rates

Once you are receiving Feed-In Tariffs, the rate you get will increase in line with inflation in accordance with the Retail Price Index (RPI). ). The tables below summarise the latest tariffs available for each technology. For the full list of tariff rates visit the Ofgem web site."

Source: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Getting-money-back/Feed-In-Tariffs-scheme-FITs

In late 2011 when PV panel prices had dropped substantially and the tariff was at its original level, people were getting returns of around 15%. The tariffs have now been re-aligned in line with the reduction in costs, and the margin is now 5-7%.

Not confused at all? Look at your own diagram, see the bit that says "Export back to the grid WHEN YOU DON'T USE IT".

Hint - that doesn't mean what you think it does. How much did you pay for that training?

Posted (edited)

Not confused at all:

"How FITs work
How-Feed-in-Tariffs-work.gif

If you are eligible to receive FITs you will benefit in three ways:

  • Generation tariff: your energy supplier will pay you a set rate for each unit (or kWh) of electricity you generate. Once your system has been registered, the tariff levels are guaranteed for the period of the tariff (up to 20 years) and are index-linked.
  • Export tariff: you will get a further 4.64p/kWh from your energy supplier for each unit you export back to the electricity grid, so you can sell any electricity you generate but don't use yourself. This rate is the same for all technologies. At some stage smart meters will be installed to measure what you export, but until then it is estimated as being 50% of the electricity you generate (only systems above 30kWp need to have an export meter fitted, and a domestic system is unlikely to be that big).
  • Energy bill savings: you will be making savings on your electricity bills because generating electricity to power your appliances means you don’t have to buy as much electricity from your energy supplier. The amount you save will vary depending how much of the electricity you use on site.

Tariff rates

Once you are receiving Feed-In Tariffs, the rate you get will increase in line with inflation in accordance with the Retail Price Index (RPI). ). The tables below summarise the latest tariffs available for each technology. For the full list of tariff rates visit the Ofgem web site."

Source: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generating-energy/Getting-money-back/Feed-In-Tariffs-scheme-FITs

In late 2011 when PV panel prices had dropped substantially and the tariff was at its original level, people were getting returns of around 15%. The tariffs have now been re-aligned in line with the reduction in costs, and the margin is now 5-7%.

Not confused at all? Look at your own diagram, see the bit that says "Export back to the grid WHEN YOU DON'T USE IT".

Hint - that doesn't mean what you think it does. How much did you pay for that training?

I'm lost as to why they used the phase 'back to the grid' instead of just 'to the grid'. Anyway, enlighten us as to what it (really?) means. Other than as a form of subsidy, I don't see why the 'electricity provider' pays for each unit of electricity generated. I suppose the government is reimbursing the provider for those payments.

Edited by MaxYakov
Posted (edited)

I still think they whole idea could make sense in the long term , and should be pushed. But the feeding into the grid must be subsidised and the prices guranteed for 5-10 years at least.

But when I see the clusterf$#ck they are doing here with the gasoline 'policy' (gasohol 91/85/80/bio ...,, NGV/LPG) there is not much hope.

Longterm energy policy seems to contradict all Thai (governement) traits.

Edit: change greed to grid, quite a difference.

Edited by longtom
Posted

Not confused at all? Look at your own diagram, see the bit that says "Export back to the grid WHEN YOU DON'T USE IT".

Hint - that doesn't mean what you think it does. How much did you pay for that training?

I'm lost as to why they used the phase 'back to the grid' instead of just 'to the grid'. Anyway, enlighten us as to what it (really?) means. Other than as a form of subsidy, I don't see why the 'electricity provider' pays for each unit of electricity generated. I suppose the government is reimbursing the provider for those payments.

AWT was suggesting you get paid for ALL the electricity you generate AND you save on your power bill. In reality it is an OR - you get paid for your EXCESS power. "...you can sell any electricity you generate but don't use yourself."

Also re smart meter fitment "...until then it (the payment) is estimated as being 50% of the electricity you generate." AWT's figures were seriously wrong.

As I said earlier - ..... "smart" meters with a variable time dependent rate. Usage at peak load periods, when solar is not working, will be charged at a much higher rate commensurate with the price paid to producers.

Electricity consumers in oz are not at all happy with the fitting of these meters as their bills are increasing markedly.

Posted

Not confused at all? Look at your own diagram, see the bit that says "Export back to the grid WHEN YOU DON'T USE IT".

Hint - that doesn't mean what you think it does. How much did you pay for that training?

I'm lost as to why they used the phase 'back to the grid' instead of just 'to the grid'. Anyway, enlighten us as to what it (really?) means. Other than as a form of subsidy, I don't see why the 'electricity provider' pays for each unit of electricity generated. I suppose the government is reimbursing the provider for those payments.

AWT was suggesting you get paid for ALL the electricity you generate AND you save on your power bill. In reality it is an OR - you get paid for your EXCESS power. "...you can sell any electricity you generate but don't use yourself."

Also re smart meter fitment "...until then it (the payment) is estimated as being 50% of the electricity you generate." AWT's figures were seriously wrong.

As I said earlier - ..... "smart" meters with a variable time dependent rate. Usage at peak load periods, when solar is not working, will be charged at a much higher rate commensurate with the price paid to producers.

Electricity consumers in oz are not at all happy with the fitting of these meters as their bills are increasing markedly.

The accounting aspects here are boggling to me. If I were going to put in a system, I'd be tempted to pony-up the additional cost/maintenance for a battery bank. Without that, you're somewhat more at the mercy of the power companies it would seem by not being able to time-shift the power generation.

In the technical vein, I wonder if it would be feasible to have a dual-use inverter that could be switched from PVs to battery bank to avoid having two inverters - one for the active PVs for battery charging/house supply, then switchable to the battery bank for house supply when the PVs are inactive. Probably be simpler, but more expensive (perhaps) to have two inverters due to probably highly-differing load requirements of the two. If the PVs were set up to somehow deliver 12.4 VDC under all sunlight conditions (unlikely?) that would be a step in that direction. Now the EE aspects are boggling me.

Anyway, are both the solar and non-solar consumers seeing their bills increase with the smart meters?

Posted

The accounting aspects here are boggling to me. If I were going to put in a system, I'd be tempted to pony-up the additional cost/maintenance for a battery bank. Without that, you're somewhat more at the mercy of the power companies it would seem by not being able to time-shift the power generation.

In the technical vein, I wonder if it would be feasible to have a dual-use inverter that could be switched from PVs to battery bank to avoid having two inverters - one for the active PVs for battery charging/house supply, then switchable to the battery bank for house supply when the PVs are inactive. Probably be simpler, but more expensive (perhaps) to have two inverters due to probably highly-differing load requirements of the two. If the PVs were set up to somehow deliver 12.4 VDC under all sunlight conditions (unlikely?) that would be a step in that direction. Now the EE aspects are boggling me.

Anyway, are both the solar and non-solar consumers seeing their bills increase with the smart meters?

IMHO The intent is to put smart meters in all homes in oz, though Victoria is the leader at the moment. The idea is to retail electricity at a variable rather than a flat rate, which is how the retailers buy it, and charge relative to the wholesale rate. This has been happening for years with commercial/industrial customers, "encouraging" them to reduce usage during the daily peaks - some factories have switched to night production, penalty rates for labour more than covered by electricity savings.

My advice - forget batteries, use the mains. For night-time blackouts I use an LED array on a motorcycle battery, swap with the one in my bike every few weeks.

Posted (edited)

The accounting aspects here are boggling to me. If I were going to put in a system, I'd be tempted to pony-up the additional cost/maintenance for a battery bank. Without that, you're somewhat more at the mercy of the power companies it would seem by not being able to time-shift the power generation.

In the technical vein, I wonder if it would be feasible to have a dual-use inverter that could be switched from PVs to battery bank to avoid having two inverters - one for the active PVs for battery charging/house supply, then switchable to the battery bank for house supply when the PVs are inactive. Probably be simpler, but more expensive (perhaps) to have two inverters due to probably highly-differing load requirements of the two. If the PVs were set up to somehow deliver 12.4 VDC under all sunlight conditions (unlikely?) that would be a step in that direction. Now the EE aspects are boggling me.

Anyway, are both the solar and non-solar consumers seeing their bills increase with the smart meters?

IMHO The intent is to put smart meters in all homes in oz, though Victoria is the leader at the moment. The idea is to retail electricity at a variable rather than a flat rate, which is how the retailers buy it, and charge relative to the wholesale rate. This has been happening for years with commercial/industrial customers, "encouraging" them to reduce usage during the daily peaks - some factories have switched to night production, penalty rates for labour more than covered by electricity savings.

My advice - forget batteries, use the mains. For night-time blackouts I use an LED array on a motorcycle battery, swap with the one in my bike every few weeks.

Interesting overview of smart meters with a large Victoria entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_meter

Interesting that you tell us to forget batteries and the proceed to tell us how you're using a hydrocarbon-charged MB battery with LEDs in the very next sentence. Wouldn't a recycled (cheap), deep-discharge battery floated on he mains give you higher potential capacity and less hassle swapping the MB batteries?

I certainly am with you with LEDs - LEDs and batteries are a killer combination. I use homemade corncob-LED, ceiling lamps (5w) and small, study lights (3w), and LED flashlights exclusively in my apartment instead of the 26w (actual - 18w tube) ceiling fluorescents. LED-based lighting is difficult to find in Bangkok. It seems as though the major fluorescent producers are somehow controlling the retail outlets to limit LED lamp sales, although one can buy a relatively expensive Philips, LED bulb at Home Pro for 400 Baht.

Edited by MaxYakov
Posted

Interesting overview of smart meters with a large Victoria entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_meter

Interesting that you tell us to forget batteries and the proceed to tell us how you're using a hydrocarbon-charged MB battery with LEDs in the very next sentence. Wouldn't a recycled (cheap), deep-discharge battery floated on he mains give you higher potential capacity and less hassle swapping the MB batteries?

I certainly am with you with LEDs - LEDs and batteries are a killer combination. I use homemade corncob-LED, ceiling lamps (5w) and small, study lights (3w), and LED flashlights exclusively in my apartment instead of the 26w (actual - 18w tube) ceiling fluorescents. LED-based lighting is difficult to find in Bangkok. It seems as though the major fluorescent producers are somehow controlling the retail outlets to limit LED lamp sales, although one can buy a relatively expensive Philips, LED bulb at Home Pro for 400 Baht.

I have worked with large scale battery banks for many years. They are restricted areas accessible to trained persons only and with every possible method of spark exclusion. They are dangerous, expensive and the source of many injuries over time - not what you want in your home.

As for my little system, it is very cheap, little bother and it works. I will change my home to LED lighting when they become commercially available and cheap. The energy/money savings don't warrant the effort and expense to make my own.

BTW your battery plan is economically illogical. You would be better off selling all power you generate at the ridiculous price offered while running your house on batteries, and then charging from the mains at a cheaper price, saving yourself B3/kWh. Not recommending it, just saying.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.




×
×
  • Create New...