Thailand and the Vietnam War

[DogNo1]

Here's a clip about the 24th Evac in Long Binh that I stumbled across. I know Simon and Garfunkel's song "American Tune" but I had never listened to the words carefully. Juxtaposed over the video about the 24th, it brought tears to my eyes!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiEsUz9Fo7c

[klikster]

Stumbled across this as well. Photos of many places in Vietnam, both military and civilian, during the mid 60's era. http://www.panoramio.com/user/1643333

[sgtsabai]

I can't believe I never saw this thread before. Outfuckinstandin'! I was supposed to come here on R&R in '67, started a new field operation instead, it was either that or take R&R and stay in garrison. I did make Hong Kong with just a few weeks left in country. Finally made the 'R&R' in early '02. My buddy turned to me outside Don Muang, smiled and said "welcome home". He was right. I've said for years, had I made that R&R I would have never gone back to the states. I've got a good friend back stateside that 'worked' out of NPK, asks me if I ever make it over that way. Thanks to all those that have contributed, lots of history here.

[Barney R]

I just found this "forum" here on TV and have to say thank you to all the contributors it is great reading and gives some insight to recent history . I am teaching my girlfriend about Thai history , she had no idea about any of this and she was born near udon Thani . Keep up the good work .

[LesT21]

Just stumbled across this, must have missed Mac's message about it. Got up to about Page 12, then jumped to the last page. Will go back and catch up when I have some time. Will dig out some of my photos and post them.

I first arrived in Thailand in August of 1970, for a year at Nakhon Phanom. I was with the Tactical Control Squadron there, so was pretty much clued in on the goings on across the river in Laos.

In March of 1971, my wife came over on a flight for wives meeting their husbands on R&R out of Vietnam. We spent time touring Bangkok and even did a run on Thai Airways up to NKP for an overnight visit. Very few wives came to Thailand as it was a remote tour and they would receive no official support from the military.

We started coming back in 1996, with my last trip over in September of 2013. Amazingly, the whole year I was here, all I wanted to do is get back to the States. Now, can't wait to get back.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Hey, Les, what kind of plane was your Thai flight to NKP? My first flight to NKP was from Nong Khai on a DC-3. Both airfields are long gone now.

Mac

[samsingsong]

This all sounds very interesting. Sadly I'm not getting any links to any of the photo's or videos mentioned?

Are they removed after a few months?

[samsingsong]

Please disregard my last post! Something weird must have happened to my internet connection - now I have the links etc.

[LesT21]

Hey, Les, what kind of plane was your Thai flight to NKP? My first flight to NKP was from Nong Khai on a DC-3. Both airfields are long gone now.

Mac

Mac,

Definitely not a DC-3, twin engine recip w/tricycle gear. Not sure what it was, just looked at some of my old slides and no help there. When we stopped at Khon Kaen on the way up, they unloaded a couple of boxes of chicks out of the tail section. Hauled them through the cabin and down the steps to the terminal.

Les

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Les

Sure it wasn't a turbo powered plane? Thai Airways had three HS 748s which were replacing their DXC-3s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Airways_Company

Did you land at the airbase or the gravel runway on the north end of downtown close to the Mekong?

Mac

[sunshine51]

Stumbled across this as well. Photos of many places in Vietnam, both military and civilian, during the mid 60's era. http://www.panoramio.com/user/1643333

Thanks for the link klikster...also heaps of pix from the 70's in there....gave

me wet eyes & I only got to page 60 outta 699 pages last night. Seems to

be a Viet based Panoramio & makes me wonder how the many GI pix got

in there (lost slides & negs?)...never mind, it's all great stuff.

[klikster]

Stumbled across this as well. Photos of many places in Vietnam, both military and civilian, during the mid 60's era. http://www.panoramio.com/user/1643333

Thanks for the link klikster...also heaps of pix from the 70's in there....gave

me wet eyes & I only got to page 60 outta 699 pages last night. Seems to

be a Viet based Panoramio & makes me wonder how the many GI pix got

in there (lost slides & negs?)...never mind, it's all great stuff.

You're welcome, Subshine.

I found a photo of the camp where I spent six months back in the '64/'65. Brings back a lot of memories. An old 'Nam vet could spend a week on that section.

[khwaibah]

Gentleman..This about correcting a wrong and I can not thank of a better place to share than this thread.

Obama to award Medal of Honor to two dozen veterans, including 19 discrimination victims

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-to-ward-medal-of-honor-to-19-soldiers-who-were-overlooked-because-of-their-ethnicity/2014/02/21/209594e8-9b10-11e3-975d-107dfef7b668_story.html?tid=pm_pop

Edited February 22, 2014 by khwaibah

[klikster]

Sorry, Sunshine -- for mis-spelling your name. My 70+ year old eyes and fingers failed me.

[sunshine51]

Sorry, Sunshine -- for mis-spelling your name. My 70+ year old eyes and fingers failed me.

Mai Pen Rai klikster...at 64 mine are going too....the brain was shot to poop ages ago

& me right leg has disagreements with me on long walks...life must go on!

[LesT21]

Les

Sure it wasn't a turbo powered plane? Thai Airways had three HS 748s which were replacing their DXC-3s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Airways_Company

Did you land at the airbase or the gravel runway on the north end of downtown close to the Mekong?

Mac

Mac,

Might have been, just looked at my slide scans and one has a bit more of the engine fairing and it does look more modern.

Like today, they were using the base strip. Only difference was the Thai Airways passengers were supposed to get right on a bus to downtown once they exited through base ops.

Here is one of an F-4 at Ubon, shot as we were taxing into the terminal. My scanner went off in the middle of scanning and the last of the bunch were blurry, haven't gotten around to redoing them.

Les

[LesT21]

Mac,

File didn't attach on my reply, trying again.

Les

Found my error.

Edited February 27, 2014 by LesT21

[LesT21]

Now that I've figured out the attachment issue. Here is a shot of the Invert compound at NKP 1970/71. Invert was the call sign for Detachment 5 of the 621st Tactical Control Squadron or simply Det 5, 621st TCS. If you spotted an upside-down 5 around, it was more than likely connected to Invert.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Les

June '68 I flew a Thai Airways DC-3 from Nong Khai over to the old civil runway at NKP, right close to the river.

Sometime afterwards when TG was replacing the DC-3s with the AVRO with turbines, they stopped using both runways because of FOD, the turbines just picked up too much gravel.

Nong Khai traffic went to Udorn, old NKP out to the airbase.

Mac

[Tywais]

Nice overview of Utapao in 1969, my period there ('68-'69). Great background music - CCR (crank it up). Nice having a beach right on base. Towards the end you can see a Sail Fish boat which I had the opportunity to get certified in along with a catamaran. Beach and outdoor movie theater right at the end of the runway making for interesting sound effects when watching the movies. Saw my barracks in it and pretty sure one of the shots was at or very near my office looking out at the flight line. Around 1:30 you can see the mountain in the background part of it blasted away to build the base foundation as it was built on a swamp. Beer $.10 per can (2.5 Baht).

[phuketandsee]

A really great thread and sad to see it winding down.

A thought - no disrespect to those who fought but isn't the fact that Thailand did not become a fallen domino after the communists won in Vietnam and Laos proof that the whole theory was a sham?

[khwaibah]

A really great thread and sad to see it winding down.

A thought - no disrespect to those who fought but isn't the fact that Thailand did not become a fallen domino after the communists won in Vietnam and Laos proof that the whole theory was a sham?

No.

[phuketandsee]

A really great thread and sad to see it winding down.

A thought - no disrespect to those who fought but isn't the fact that Thailand did not become a fallen domino after the communists won in Vietnam and Laos proof that the whole theory was a sham?

No.

Care to elaborate?

[DogNo1]

Well, in the respect that countries didn't fall sequentially, blam, blam, blam - one right after another - the Domino Theory wasn't technically accurate but so far as it predicted the effort of the Soviet Union and China to turn countries in SE Asia communist, it was right on. One only needs to read the history of the NVN army being trained up from its infancy by the Chinese, the presence of high -ranking Chinese advisors at all of the major battles and Ho and Vo Nguyen Giap's frequent consultation trips to Beijing and Moscow to understand that the war was a concerted Communist effort. Laos and Cambodia turned Communist too.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Plus, the fighting in Vietnam and Laos bought time for the Thai to win their own fight within their borders with the commies. By 1981 (or was it '83?) the CT finally figured out that it was time to rest their case and join the mainstream Thai who were for the most part, living the good life.

Mac

[phuketandsee]

DogNo1 - No one questions that China and the Soviet Union backed the North Vietnamese - largely for geopolitical reasons. For those same reasons the US backed the South; i.e. not to protect democracy. Ho Chi Minh's preference was to get help from the US in gaining independence for his country but by 1949 fear of communism colored everything the US did.

A good argument can be made that the US war with the North Vietnamese (and the methods used) caused the communist takeover in Laos. Kind of ironic that the communist government in Cambodia (led by Pol Pot) was overthrown by who? Yes the commies of Vietnam. And the good old US was so incensed at the removal of this communist government they supported the KR's retention of their seat at the UN. It is also believed by many that the US support of the KR extended well beyond this.

Mac - My understanding is the communist insurgency in Thailand reached a maximum of around 12,000 men under arms which is not a lot compared to other conflicts in the region and this number was reached (and greatly influenced by) the Thammasat University massacre in 1976 and the repressive policies of the government. Hanoi's support for this insurgency was prompted by Thailand's support for the US in the war in general and especially their role in the "secret" war in Laos.

Edited April 14, 2014 by phuketandsee

[DogNo1]

There's no doubt that John Foster Dulles and the US in general, as evidenced by the McCarthy Hearings, feared the communist influence in Vietnam before Ho actually turned to them for support of his nationalist movement. In fact, the United States' biggest error, as pointed out by Tran Ngoc Chau in his book Vietnam Labyrinth, was to ignore the existence of non-communist anti-colonial nationalists. All resistance to the Vietnamese puppet regime was seen to be communist in nature. How this played out is beautifully laid out by Chau in his book which is perhaps THE most important book to read for an understanding of the Vietnam war. I do not attempt to describe the US as being faultless. It had and has many faults but the communist threat was, in fact, real.

Thanks Mac for mentioning the fighting in Thailand against the Communists. I'm sure that if the Comintern had won its battle in Vietnam earlier, they would have turned to supporting the communist battle in Thailand very strongly and Thailand might today be a Peoples Democratic Republic of Thailand.

[DogNo1]

Actually, it is a misconception that Ho was not thoroughly communist early on. He went to Paris in 1919 and became an activist for the liberation of Vietnam through armed struggle in the French Socialist Party after reading Lenin's "Theses on the National and Colonial Questions." He went to Moscow in 1924 and became an important figure in the Comintern and was sent to southern China as a liaison/organizer with government of Sun Yat Sen. Later, at the behest of the Comintern he formed the Indochinese Communist Party (ICP) in Hong Kong in 1930 with the mission of spurring revolutionary activity throughout French Indochina (and not just in Cochin China, Annam and Tonkin.) John Foster Dulles was apparently right in identifying Ho as a Communist revolutionary from the beginning. This information comes from "Embers of War" by Fredrick Logevall.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Re "... Thailand's support for the US in the war in general and especially their role in the "secret" war in Laos."

There were up to some 20,000 Thai "volunteers" in Laos from 1971 to the winding down in 1974. They're represented these days by the Unknown Warriors Association 333.

The bulk of them were on the PDJ, Sam Thong, and Long Tieng. Second largest number down Pakse way, with a smaller group at Xieng Lom, Sayaboury.

Mac

[phuketandsee]

Above all else Ho wanted independence for his country and was prepared to take help from anywhere he could. It was only after approaching Woodrow Wilson at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 for help and being rebuffed that he joined the communist party. Of course we'll never know whether he would have joined anyway but interesting to speculate.

As far as China was concerned this was the "old enemy" to Vietnam for over 2000 years and was very much an ally of last resort. In 1945 Ho even allowed the French back into northern VN rather than allow the Chinese to stay after they had taken over from the Japanese ("better to sniff French shit for a hundred years than to eat Chinese shit for a thousand").

"I'm sure that if the Comintern had won its battle in Vietnam earlier, they would have turned to supporting the communist battle in Thailand very strongly and Thailand might today be a Peoples Democratic Republic of Thailand".

Why would this only have happened if they had won earlier? Seems to me if it was ever going to happen it was during the mid '70s when sympathy for the CPT was highest and the US was largely out of there and support for foreign wars lowest. The Vietnamese certainly had enough strength left to defeat Pol Pot then repel the Red Army.

A communist insurgency can only be successful with the support of a large section of the local population which was largely why it failed in Malaya. I believe that is why it never really had a chance in Thailand and probably would not have even seriously existed but for the American War in Vietnam.

Edited April 15, 2014 by phuketandsee