Staff caught stealing, what is the law regarding the wages? Also law about unpaid trial

[lemoncake]

Hoping to get some advice on legality's of 2 matters from business people in Thailand.

If you do not have a business in Thailand and just guessing,or sharing the law in your home country, please do not respond as it is irrelevant

First part.

If staff caught stealing red handed, what is the law/regulation in Thailand in regards to paying their wages for previously worked days? ie days prior to being caught?

I have company regulations/contract, which must be signed prior to starting the job, in there, i have clear clause stating if caught stealing, they loose wages for entire month.

I have just caught yet another staff stealing money, red handed, recorded on CCTV, this staff has only worked for 4 days in this month, so by Thai law do i have to pay for those 4 days?

Second part.

One of my good, loyal staff, has also had enough of the bad people and suggested i introduce an unpaid trial period of 5 or 7 days.

According to her, many Thai company's have an unpaid trial of up to 1 week, whereby if staff are good, those days are paid, however if staff unsuitable for whatever reason those days are unpaid.

What is the law in regards to that?

Thanks in advance.

Edited August 5, 2013 by lemoncake

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Minimum wage is rigidly enforced by the labour department.

You must pay it for every day an employee works, no matter what reason you have not to pay it.

Theoretically you could deduct the value of any item you could prove they 'stole and kept' from their wages.

As an aside.

You want to keep a Thai person's wages for 4 days they worked, what's wrong with you?

Edited August 5, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[lemoncake]

Minimum wage is rigidly enforced by the labour department.

You must pay it for every day an employee works, no matter what reason you have not to pay it.

Theoretically you could deduct the value of any item you could prove they 'stole and kept' from their wages.

As an aside.

You want to keep a Thai person's wages for 4 days they worked, what's wrong with you?

This has nothing to do with minimum wage

Please read the post again.

I also did not ask about theoretical question but need a definite.

So all of the above that you wrote, is it according to you? or an actual law addressing the actual matter of theft?

On a side note: What problem do you have with not paying a Thai who was caught stealing? would it be different if they were African or English?

[irishsmile]

Slave labour??? No wages??

If you are the employer then you have the right to recruit and dismiss who you choose, of course I understand that you must protect your business and company interests so anyone who dips there hand and is caught red handed should be dealt with and and disciplined, but regardless of thai employment regulations see common sense and pay people a fair days wage for a fair ( and honest ) days work.

[lemoncake]

Slave labour??? No wages??

If you are the employer then you have the right to recruit and dismiss who you choose, of course I understand that you must protect your business and company interests so anyone who dips there hand and is caught red handed should be dealt with and and disciplined, but regardless of thai employment regulations see common sense and pay people a fair days wage for a fair ( and honest ) days work.

let me repeat again,

If you do not have a business in Thailand and just guessing,or sharing the law in your home country, please do not respond as it is irrelevant

[arnestockholm]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

[lemoncake]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

[wolf5370]

I'm pretty sure you are in a grey area - so better talking to someone like Sunbelt Asia. The reason I said this is that you have two contradictory things - Labour laws say you have to pay the agreed wage for the hours worked - however, you say you have an employment contract which was signed (presumably in Thai?) which could mitigate. To be honest though, I doubt most Thais would expect to get paid once caught stealing - most would do a bunk or at least keep a lid on in. To be sure, talk to a lawyer. Personally I would not pay it, have the contractual clause shown to them, and see what happens - worse case you end up paying.

//Edit: Just to extend it: I didn't pay a member of staff who walked out without giving me the required notice - no come back. Another earlier (5 years ago abouts) who was stealing was sacked and not paid, again no come back.

Edited August 5, 2013 by wolf5370

[Briggsy]

Many Thai companies insist new employees place a deposit with them to cover this kind of eventuality. Pay them for days worked and then deduct it from the deposit.

[wolf5370]

Many Thai companies insist new employees place a deposit with them to cover this kind of eventuality. Pay them for days worked and then deduct it from the deposit.

Also accrues interest - nice

[pancakeman]

Generally when hiring people you should require a "deposit". ie they pay you 1-2 months worth of salary as a deposit. If they don't have any money (often the case) then cut the deposit money from their salary over the first 4-6 months that they work.

If they quit unannounced, or steal etc... then this deposit is gone.

This seems harsh but it's expected normally for Thai employees.

IMHO if you caught someone stealing they either need to be shown the door immediately, or if they important to your immediate operations then come up with an exit plan to get them out as quickly as possible (do not let them know that such an exit plan has been formulated). Cutting salary or fining them while still keeping them on is madness and asking for trouble.

Edited August 5, 2013 by pancakeman

[singa-traz]

Best, is to go to the closest office of the Labour Department, they will have a definitive answer on this.

Labour Law (in English): http://www.labour.go.th/en/index.php/2011-04-07-10-49-49

Note that firing your staff without following the proper process can be costly, even if you have hard evidence.

It might be cheaper/faster, to accept "the resignation" of the staff, and pay him the days he worked.

[lemoncake]

Best, is to go to the closest office of the Labour Department, they will have a definitive answer on this.

Labour Law (in English): http://www.labour.go.th/en/index.php/2011-04-07-10-49-49

Note that firing your staff without following the proper process can be costly, even if you have hard evidence.

It might be cheaper/faster, to accept "the resignation" of the staff, and pay him the days he worked.

After the 120 day probation yes it's harder but during the probation one does not even need a reason.

[lemoncake]

Many Thai companies insist new employees place a deposit with them to cover this kind of eventuality. Pay them for days worked and then deduct it from the deposit.

I charge 2000 deposit from the first salary , in this particular case , person just started , first 4 days.

Person got caught red handed in this one instance, it does not mean they did not steal in the first 4 days

[lemoncake]

Generally when hiring people you should require a "deposit". ie they pay you 1-2 months worth of salary as a deposit. If they don't have any money (often the case) then cut the deposit money from their salary over the first 4-6 months that they work.

If they quit unannounced, or steal etc... then this deposit is gone.

This seems harsh but it's expected normally for Thai employees.

IMHO if you caught someone stealing they either need to be shown the door immediately, or if they important to your immediate operations then come up with an exit plan to get them out as quickly as possible (do not let them know that such an exit plan has been formulated). Cutting salary or fining them while still keeping them on is madness and asking for trouble.

My company rules are 2 pages long, which covers all the fines, etc.

In the past as wolf mentioned, they too ashamed to even ask, but in this particular case person is extremely arrogant.

As I mentioned , this person only started to work,and I know Thai owners would not pay anything, my contract also says same, but hoping to get the law on this specific case.

I have had about 3 cases same and each time filed police report, only police not really do anything , so can not be bothered wasting time again.

[Briggsy]

Many Thai companies insist new employees place a deposit with them to cover this kind of eventuality. Pay them for days worked and then deduct it from the deposit.

I charge 2000 deposit from the first salary , in this particular case , person just started , first 4 days.

Person got caught red handed in this one instance, it does not mean they did not steal in the first 4 days

Go for the upfront deposit rather than after the first salary.

[LuckyLew]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

If you poke to a lawyer ... and he gave you an answer

Why are you posting the same questions here

also, I know that on a public forum, people can respond as they

see fit as long as it is within the rules of the forum.

So by asking people not to respond unless ....

you are asking for all kinds of answer ... that is life on public forums

No one on public forums likes to be told not to answer

We have read you post ... and we are allowed to answer ... yes? no?

[BrianCR]

Under Thai labour law you are NOT allowed to stop any money from salary unless the employee agrees with this in writing. If stoppages are included in a written contract money maybe stopped unless the employee claims that they were (forced to sign that contract). In the case of theft you are legally entitled to dismissed the employee without notice or any such other payment other than the time actually worked.

The theft should be reported to the police and legal action taken to protect yourself against a future claim for wrongful dismissal. You may then also start a civil case to recover your property BUT, legally you can't stop it from the salary!

In practice things work slightly differently, before you pay salary, you inform the employee that you intend to call in the police and prosecute or that the employee returns the goods or signs an agreement stating that he or she stole the goods and offers his or her salary by way of compensation. In return for doing this the police will NOT be called in! Most employees will agree with the latter part.

Edited August 6, 2013 by BrianCR

[darrendsd]

Instead of just dismissing people who try to help you on here why don't you go to the Labour dept and get the answer you are looking for?

People are trying to give you advise which it seems you don't want and you have no right to say who and who cannot reply to your post as this is a public forum

Your rudeness makes me surprised anyone would answer you at all

The Labour dept will answer your question in 2 minutes

[lemoncake]

Many Thai companies insist new employees place a deposit with them to cover this kind of eventuality. Pay them for days worked and then deduct it from the deposit.

I charge 2000 deposit from the first salary , in this particular case , person just started , first 4 days.

Person got caught red handed in this one instance, it does not mean they did not steal in the first 4 days

Go for the upfront deposit rather than after the first salary.

Would love to do that, but its hard enough to get any staff through the door and usually they start asking to borrow money after working for a few days, ie they do not have any money to pay upfront

It might be different in job for larger company's but with hotel people, its just not possible

[GirlDrinkDrunk]

Minimum wage is rigidly enforced by the labour department.

You must pay it for every day an employee works, no matter what reason you have not to pay it.

Theoretically you could deduct the value of any item you could prove they 'stole and kept' from their wages.

As an aside.

You want to keep a Thai person's wages for 4 days they worked, what's wrong with you?

This has nothing to do with minimum wage

Please read the post again.

I also did not ask about theoretical question but need a definite.

So all of the above that you wrote, is it according to you? or an actual law addressing the actual matter of theft?

On a side note: What problem do you have with not paying a Thai who was caught stealing? would it be different if they were African or English?

if you want a definitive answer i suggest you approach the labour department rather than waste your time here

[lemoncake]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

If you poke to a lawyer ... and he gave you an answer

Why are you posting the same questions here

also, I know that on a public forum, people can respond as they

see fit as long as it is within the rules of the forum.

So by asking people not to respond unless ....

you are asking for all kinds of answer ... that is life on public forums

No one on public forums likes to be told not to answer

We have read you post ... and we are allowed to answer ... yes? no?

Why are you responding if you do not have anything at all of value to add?

Did you see a question there anywhere asking for evaluation of my post?

Life on public forum? No, its those without a life who feel the need to go into any thread, unrelated to them and express their unwanted and unwarranted opinions, exactly how you have done

Does not take a rocket scientist to figure out if its not posted in general topic it might be specific and addressed for specific people

[lemoncake]

Under Thai labour law you are NOT allowed to stop any money from salary unless the employee agrees with this in writing. If stoppages are included in a written contract money maybe stopped unless the employee claims that they were (forced to sign that contract). In the case of theft you are legally entitled to dismissed the employee without notice or any such other payment other than the time actually worked.

The theft should be reported to the police and legal action taken to protect yourself against a future claim for wrongful dismissal. You may then also start a civil case to recover your property BUT, legally you can't stop it from the salary!

In practice things work slightly differently, before you pay salary, you inform the employee that you intend to call in the police and prosecute or that the employee returns the goods or signs an agreement stating that he or she stole the goods and offers his or her salary by way of compensation. In return for doing this the police will NOT be called in! Most employees will agree with the latter part.

Thanks for that, as i mentioned in the past when employees were caught stealing and police was called, nothing happened, police did not even follow up, even when i pressed charges.

So are you saying that even police were not to take action, still need to file a police report? even for employees who are on probation so dismissing them is not a problem

[lemoncake]

Instead of just dismissing people who try to help you on here why don't you go to the Labour dept and get the answer you are looking for?

People are trying to give you advise which it seems you don't want and you have no right to say who and who cannot reply to your post as this is a public forum

Your rudeness makes me surprised anyone would answer you at all

The Labour dept will answer your question in 2 minutes

So you do not have any related experience or knowledge? but bored so felt the need to troll in

Do you have experience speaking with labor department?i am guessing the answer is a no

[lemoncake]

Minimum wage is rigidly enforced by the labour department.

You must pay it for every day an employee works, no matter what reason you have not to pay it.

Theoretically you could deduct the value of any item you could prove they 'stole and kept' from their wages.

As an aside.

You want to keep a Thai person's wages for 4 days they worked, what's wrong with you?

This has nothing to do with minimum wage

Please read the post again.

I also did not ask about theoretical question but need a definite.

So all of the above that you wrote, is it according to you? or an actual law addressing the actual matter of theft?

On a side note: What problem do you have with not paying a Thai who was caught stealing? would it be different if they were African or English?

if you want a definitive answer i suggest you approach the labour department rather than waste your time here

Just as with anything else in Thailand, different person you speak with, gets you a different answer, hence the dilemma

Getting a labor lawyer costs further money which only adds to more losses.

[Paul888]

Why would anybody even try and help this guy?

[WhizBang]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

If you want to know the ACTUAL LAW, should you not be asking an ACTUAL LAWYER?

And yet you say you do not want to know what a Thai lawyer thinks? You have a very strange attitude.

By the way, two wrongs (employee stealing and you not paying), do not make a right.

[Tomtomtom69]

This case is clear cut - if you are caught stealing you are a criminal and should be treated as such whether it happens in the workplace or if you steal a pen from B2S.

You pay the employee for days worked unless there is something in the contract stating no wages to be paid for the first few days or if caught stealing. Then you dismiss the employee.

I seriously doubt Thai employees, especially those caught wrongdoing would try to go to all legal lengths to ensure they aren't unfairly dismissed etc. Thailand isn't the USA buddy and in any case i wouldn't put too much trust in a legal system where money can buy anything and everything. Most employees see themselves as subvervients who must follow the orders of their bosses. If things go wrong, they mostly go quietly so as to not lose face even more than they already have.

[darrendsd]

Instead of just dismissing people who try to help you on here why don't you go to the Labour dept and get the answer you are looking for?

People are trying to give you advise which it seems you don't want and you have no right to say who and who cannot reply to your post as this is a public forum

Your rudeness makes me surprised anyone would answer you at all

The Labour dept will answer your question in 2 minutes

So you do not have any related experience or knowledge? but bored so felt the need to troll in

Do you have experience speaking with labor department?i am guessing the answer is a no

I have advised you to go to the Labour dept, that is not trolling that is advice

My other points were about your downright rudeness, a view that seems to be shared by others on here

[lemoncake]

You have a company and employer but no lawyer? Hmm would try to find one and ask him.

And what makes you think Thai lawyers know this? and/ or i have not asked already?

According to company lawyer, without any reference if caught stealing do not pay anything at all, but again for the 3rd time, i am wanting to know the actual law NOT what you think or guess and NOT what Thai lawyer thinks

If you want to know the ACTUAL LAW, should you not be asking an ACTUAL LAWYER?

And yet you say you do not want to know what a Thai lawyer thinks? You have a very strange attitude.

By the way, two wrongs (employee stealing and you not paying), do not make a right.

It sure helps to read , before speaking

As already stated prior, Lawyer says -NO, however no reference to what section of the labor law allows that.

Did you have any requested experience or reference/link

Did you see somewhere in the OP saying" what would you do? or what do you think i should do?