Water pump problem - NO TANK

[linesma]

My wife and I found a wonderful house to rent. We love it, but there is a small problem. It is the water pump. I have looked on the forum for information, but every thread I have found talks about a pump being connected to a tank. Our Pump is connected to the mains and then the water goes directly into the house, ie no tank. At first the pump worked fine, and then it started to run all the time. We immediately shut it off and called the landlord. He gave us permission to have someone come and look at it. During this time, we were only turning on the pump when we showered or did laundry. The repairman came and found that the preassure regulator was bad. He replaced the regulator, and now a week later, the pump short-cycles even when the water is off. I have looked both inside and outside the house for leaks, and I have not found any. I do not know very much about residential water pumps. Is the preassure regulator on the pump not adjusted properly? Any help and information is greatly appreciated.

[Satcommlee]

That is actually illegal I believe..

Without a tank, using the water pump will draw pressure from all your neighbours, making their water supply fail.

You have to have a tank if you are using a pump.

edit: it actually can cause contaminated water to enter the water mains due to the inverse pressure.. The water mains system is designed so that water can only leak out and not suck dirt in.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Satcommlee

[wayned]

As stated above the pump should not draw directly from the main supply, you should have a tank that fills from the main supply and pump water from that tank. In your installation, without a tank, is there a bypass line that allows water to flow around the pump when there is a power outage. If there is, there should be a flow control valve that would shut off when the pump output pressuure is greater than the supply line. If that valve is stuck open, your pump will continuousky cycle on and off as it is trying to pressurize the entire mains supply, it acts as if there is a leak in the line.

[Canada]

Typically, this type of set up should only be used for gardening and "outside the house" needs.

[Pib]

Do you have a water cut off valve immediately after the pump output? If you do, trying cutting off the water there and see what the pump does. If it stops the cycling then that is telling you that you probably do have a small leak somewhere. Just having all the water taps in the house turned off is not good enough to check for possible leaks because the commode bowl tank fill valve could be leak, you could have a small leak underground/in the walls.

And if my chance the line from the soi main goes directly to the pump and it has a cutoff valve (should be one on the water meter itself if you don't have a separate one), then with the pump turned on and not running/cycling (i.e., pump automatically turned itself off after charging up the water pressure), then turn off the valve "after" the pump and "before" the pump which should totally isolate the pump unless their ware some bypass water lines installed. This way you have now totally isolated the pump and if it is not leaking somewhere/holding pressure then it should not cycle. If it does cycle then start focusing your attention on the pump again.

But usually cycling is caused by a water leak somewhere on the pump output side; but it can be on the input side depending on the pump's design and/or design of valves feeding into it. By valves feeding into it I mean one-way flow valves to prevent backflow of water into the source of the water (i.e., water mains, storage tank above or below ground, pump well, etc) and this backflow can also possibly cause the pump to lose internal pressure causing it to cycle...to attempt to rebuild the pressure.

Would recommend you try some more isolation like I mention above to help narrow down the possible problem.

[linesma]

Do you have a water cut off valve immediately after the pump output? If you do, trying cutting off the water there and see what the pump does. If it stops the cycling then that is telling you that you probably do have a small leak somewhere. Just having all the water taps in the house turned off is not good enough to check for possible leaks because the commode bowl tank fill valve could be leak, you could have a small leak underground/in the walls.

And if my chance the line from the soi main goes directly to the pump and it has a cutoff valve (should be one on the water meter itself if you don't have a separate one), then with the pump turned on and not running/cycling (i.e., pump automatically turned itself off after charging up the water pressure), then turn off the valve "after" the pump and "before" the pump which should totally isolate the pump unless their ware some bypass water lines installed. This way you have now totally isolated the pump and if it is not leaking somewhere/holding pressure then it should not cycle. If it does cycle then start focusing your attention on the pump again.

But usually cycling is caused by a water leak somewhere on the pump output side; but it can be on the input side depending on the pump's design and/or design of valves feeding into it. By valves feeding into it I mean one-way flow valves to prevent backflow of water into the source of the water (i.e., water mains, storage tank above or below ground, pump well, etc) and this backflow can also possibly cause the pump to lose internal pressure causing it to cycle...to attempt to rebuild the pressure.

Would recommend you try some more isolation like I mention above to help narrow down the possible problem.

Thank you all for the replies. The reason why I said that I did not have a tank, is I did not see one above ground. I guess the tank is then below ground. Pib, I will follow your suggestion to isolate the pump. My wife is also going to call someone to service the pump. Hopefully we can get this fixed with minimal problems.

Edited August 7, 2013 by linesma

[linesma]

One other question. If there was a leak causing the short cycle of the pump, would the pump correct itself and go into a long cycle when water was running? Because even with the water running, either upstairs or downstairs, it stays in its short cycle mode.

Edited August 7, 2013 by linesma

[Pib]

Thank you all for the replies. The reason why I said that I did not have a tank, is I did not see one above ground. I guess the tank is then below ground. Pib, I will follow your suggestion to isolate the pump. My wife is also going to call someone to service the pump. Hopefully we can get this fixed with minimal problems.

With the tank below ground you could be losing pump prime which causes it to lose internal pressure/cycle for apparent no reason. On the inlet side of the pump....between the pump and tank....there should be a one-way flow valve to prevent backflow....for a below ground tank it may have a footer valve which is a one way valve...by preventing backflow it keeps water from going back into the mains or back into the tank....if it goes back into mains/tank you can lose pump prime unless the pump has a built-in one-way flow valve.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Pib

[Pib]

One other question. If there was a leak causing the short cycle of the pump, would the pump correct itself and go into a long cycle when water was running? Because even with the water running, either upstairs or downstairs, it stays in its short cycle mode.

With the different models/designs of pumps you really need to be more specific of the brand/model you have as they operate somewhat differently..in could be a constant pressure pump...maybe it's not a constant pressure pump, etc. Many residential pumps will come with a "booster tank/pressure tank" (not to be confused with the storage tank) whose purpose is maintain X-amount of water under pressure which allows the water to be continued to be pushed out even without the pump running. Some models have the pump motor assembly setting on top of a small pressure tank of 10-20 liters in size....others have a small 1-2 litter pressure bottle screwed into the pump manifold assembly....others have a large 10-10 liter bottle setting on-top of the pump assemble....and a basic pump is just the pump motor with a pressure switch (no pressure tank of any size).

But regardless of where the pressure tank is mounted on the pump, the primary purpose of the small pressure tank is to offload.place less work on the pump...even with small leaks the pump won't be kicking on all the time because stored energy/pressure in the pressure tank will handle the pushing out of that small outflow of water without causing the pump to turn on. The pump wont' kick on until the pressure in the pressure tank/output lines drops to a certain level.

I'm not really sure what you mean by long cycle and short cycle. If long cycle means pump is running and short cycle means pump is off then if the pump type does "not" have a booster/pressure tank it will pretty much run 100% of the time with a water tap on somewhere or significant leak.

If it does have a pressure tank then it should run at approx. a 50/50% of the time on/off cycle with one tap open....example: run for approx. 3-5 seconds, off for 3-5 seconds and this cycle repeats itself as long as the tap is open. However, but, if the pressure tank is "waterlogged" it will be as if no pressure tank exists and the pump would run the great majority to all of the time....like maybe a 90/10 on/off cycle or constantly on.

Maybe you could be more specific about your particular pump.

[linesma]

One other question. If there was a leak causing the short cycle of the pump, would the pump correct itself and go into a long cycle when water was running? Because even with the water running, either upstairs or downstairs, it stays in its short cycle mode.

With the different models/designs of pumps you really need to be more specific of the brand/model you have as they operate somewhat differently..in could be a constant pressure pump...maybe it's not a constant pressure pump, etc. Many residential pumps will come with a "booster tank/pressure tank" (not to be confused with the storage tank) whose purpose is maintain X-amount of water under pressure which allows the water to be continued to be pushed out even without the pump running. Some models have the pump motor assembly setting on top of a small pressure tank of 10-20 liters in size....others have a small 1-2 litter pressure bottle screwed into the pump manifold assembly....others have a large 10-10 liter bottle setting on-top of the pump assemble....and a basic pump is just the pump motor with a pressure switch (no pressure tank of any size).

But regardless of where the pressure tank is mounted on the pump, the primary purpose of the small pressure tank is to offload.place less work on the pump...even with small leaks the pump won't be kicking on all the time because stored energy/pressure in the pressure tank will handle the pushing out of that small outflow of water without causing the pump to turn on. The pump wont' kick on until the pressure in the pressure tank/output lines drops to a certain level.

I'm not really sure what you mean by long cycle and short cycle. If long cycle means pump is running and short cycle means pump is off then if the pump type does "not" have a booster/pressure tank it will pretty much run 100% of the time with a water tap on somewhere or significant leak.

If it does have a pressure tank then it should run at approx. a 50/50% of the time on/off cycle with one tap open....example: run for approx. 3-5 seconds, off for 3-5 seconds and this cycle repeats itself as long as the tap is open. However, but, if the pressure tank is "waterlogged" it will be as if no pressure tank exists and the pump would run the great majority to all of the time....like maybe a 90/10 on/off cycle or constantly on.

Maybe you could be more specific about your particular pump.

Pib,

Thank you for your time. I may have been using the terms improperly. Water pumps are new to me, unless they are on a car! What I mean by short cycle long cycle is as follows: Short Cycle: The pump clicks on runs for a second or two and then is off for a second or two. This repeats itself until power is lost. Long Cycle: Run the tap the pump runs for 3-5 seconds and is off for 3-5 seconds. Right now the pump is clicking on and off in a short type cycle even when the water is running. The only time the pump will run constantly is when I turn on the faucet closest to the pump. I have unclosed pictures of the pump. There is a placard on it that says: Electra Centrufugal Pump. I tried to get some shots that showed how it was installed.

[Pib]

In your opening post you said, "At first the pump worked fine..." Can you describe what "fine" means in terms of the cycling. When it comes to cycling its either going to run 100% of the time; some type of on/off cycle when one tap is turned on say 3 sec on, 3 sec off, 5 sec on, 5 second off, etc.; are not even turn on.

That red thing on the pump is a pressure tank of several liters. If it is waterlogged that will cause the pump to have a higher on time compared to off time since the pressure tank is not able to do its job of taking some of the workload off the pump motor...so the pump motor kicks in more often, runs longer, etc. A defective pressure tank can even cause the motor to overheat and shutdown. The pressure tank/bottle is probably the type that has rubber diaphragm separating the air/nitrogen in it of approx. 15psi/1bar since I don't see any small air tube leading to it that replenish the natural absorption of the air into the water. Without that air a "compressed cushion/spring of stored energy" won't be created which allows water to be push to taps when opened (or small leaks) without the need of the pump to immediately turn on. That Schrader valve on the tank is used to charge the tank to the proper air pressure level at the factory and when the charge needs to be replenished a little due to slow air loss which take a long time with such a tank because it's hard for air to get through rubber resting on water and the steel tank...but air is slowly loss just like how a tire slowly loses some of its air pressure.

Also, I don't see any one-way flow valve on the pump input...this means there is most likely a footer valve at the bottom of the pipe going from the pump into your underground tank to prevent backflow of water from the pump which would also cause it to lose prime. Maybe the footer valve is dirty/defective/not-closing-completely causing the pump to lose prime.

Additionally, unless the tank is sealed to prevent any leaks even from its top-most portion, it must have a float valve in it which only allow the incoming water from the soi to fill it up to a certain level. If that float valve is defective and possibly allowing the water to only fill-up to a level right around the same level as the footer valve then that could be causing intermittent/strange cycling of the pump.

So, what do you mean by working fine? Your latest description of the pump cycling with its small pressure tank seems about right except the part where you say until it loses power. By losing power do you mean it overheats and shuts itself down or you shutting off power to it. And depending on the size of pipes leading to the different taps you have been opening then that could vary the cycle time....the tap closest to the pump may be the less restricted in terms of size of pipe feeding it compared maybe to smaller pipes going into your house, some of which may feed into smaller diameter hoses like a shower head hose, bum gun hose, etc. The smaller the pipe the less water volume needs to be provided which makes easier work for the pump.

And just to make your head hurt even more, if the pump has been shutting itself down (i.e., overheating and its built-in overheating protective device shuts it down for 15 minutes or so) this overheating could be caused by the pump's start/run capacitor which is critical to providing the proper power to the motor.

[linesma]

In your opening post you said, "At first the pump worked fine..." Can you describe what "fine" means in terms of the cycling. When it comes to cycling its either going to run 100% of the time; some type of on/off cycle when one tap is turned on say 3 sec on, 3 sec off, 5 sec on, 5 second off, etc.; are not even turn on.

That red thing on the pump is a pressure tank of several liters. If it is waterlogged that will cause the pump to have a higher on time compared to off time since the pressure tank is not able to do its job of taking some of the workload off the pump motor...so the pump motor kicks in more often, runs longer, etc. A defective pressure tank can even cause the motor to overheat and shutdown. The pressure tank/bottle is probably the type that has rubber diaphragm separating the air/nitrogen in it of approx. 15psi/1bar since I don't see any small air tube leading to it that replenish the natural absorption of the air into the water. Without that air a "compressed cushion/spring of stored energy" won't be created which allows water to be push to taps when opened (or small leaks) without the need of the pump to immediately turn on. That Schrader valve on the tank is used to charge the tank to the proper air pressure level at the factory and when the charge needs to be replenished a little due to slow air loss which take a long time with such a tank because it's hard for air to get through rubber resting on water and the steel tank...but air is slowly loss just like how a tire slowly loses some of its air pressure.

Also, I don't see any one-way flow valve on the pump input...this means there is most likely a footer valve at the bottom of the pipe going from the pump into your underground tank to prevent backflow of water from the pump which would also cause it to lose prime. Maybe the footer valve is dirty/defective/not-closing-completely causing the pump to lose prime.

Additionally, unless the tank is sealed to prevent any leaks even from its top-most portion, it must have a float valve in it which only allow the incoming water from the soi to fill it up to a certain level. If that float valve is defective and possibly allowing the water to only fill-up to a level right around the same level as the footer valve then that could be causing intermittent/strange cycling of the pump.

So, what do you mean by working fine? Your latest description of the pump cycling with its small pressure tank seems about right except the part where you say until it loses power. By losing power do you mean it overheats and shuts itself down or you shutting off power to it. And depending on the size of pipes leading to the different taps you have been opening then that could vary the cycle time....the tap closest to the pump may be the less restricted in terms of size of pipe feeding it compared maybe to smaller pipes going into your house, some of which may feed into smaller diameter hoses like a shower head hose, bum gun hose, etc. The smaller the pipe the less water volume needs to be provided which makes easier work for the pump.

And just to make your head hurt even more, if the pump has been shutting itself down (i.e., overheating and its built-in overheating protective device shuts it down for 15 minutes or so) this overheating could be caused by the pump's start/run capacitor which is critical to providing the proper power to the motor.

Pib,

You are right, my head IS hurting! Now I know how people feel when I provide tech support for their computers. Thank you for your time, I really do appreciate the education. Let me rephrase my comment in my first post. "I assume that is was running fine. When the tap was turned on, it would run in a cycle of on for 5 seconds and off for 5 to 10 seconds. When the tap was turned off, it would run for 5 seconds and then shut off for about 5 to 10 minutes." The pump has shut itself down 1 time since it started what I call a short cycle. It has, before these monkeyshines all started, tripped the breaker. It only tripped the breaker during two different rain storms. I didn't think anything of it the first time, and the second time, her dad was visiting, we did not think it was a problem then either. About two weeks later is when it started to run all the time.

[Pib]

Pib,

You are right, my head IS hurting! Now I know how people feel when I provide tech support for their computers. Thank you for your time, I really do appreciate the education. Let me rephrase my comment in my first post. "I assume that is was running fine. When the tap was turned on, it would run in a cycle of on for 5 seconds and off for 5 to 10 seconds. When the tap was turned off, it would run for 5 seconds and then shut off for about 5 to 10 minutes." The pump has shut itself down 1 time since it started what I call a short cycle. It has, before these monkeyshines all started, tripped the breaker. It only tripped the breaker during two different rain storms. I didn't think anything of it the first time, and the second time, her dad was visiting, we did not think it was a problem then either. About two weeks later is when it started to run all the time.

OK, a run cycle of approx. 50/50 like you describe sounds about right for a pump of your design with a pressure tank and one tap open. To me that would indicates the pressure tank is probably not waterlogged.

Now where you say the pump was turning on ever 5-10 minutes that tells me you got a small leak(s) somewhere "if the pressure tank is not waterlogged." It should not be cutting on anywhere close to that frequently unless you got a leak or some gremlin is turning a tap on every 5-10 minutes.

If the pressure tank was waterlogged basically just turning it into a useless piece of metal and water hooked to your pump, then a small leak(s) would probably make the pump turn on much more frequently than every 5-10 minutes/run much more often/run when it shouldn't be running because supposed no water is being used anywhere in the house. Since liquids like water basically can not be compressed they can not store energy...so a small leak can bleed off the pressure fast and cause the pressure switch to turn the pump on again to regain the loss pressure.

But my gut is telling me the pressure storage tank could be fine but a leak of the right size was taking about 5-10 minutes to cause the pressure to bleed off sufficiently to cause the pump to kick on....and now the leak has got even bigger causing very frequent and short cycling of the pump.

You may want to check again for leaks around the house like maybe a leaking commode float valve...maybe there is a shutoff valve between the wall and commode tank input where you can cut off the water going to the commodes for a certain period to test for leaking. But usually you can just remove the commode tank top and visually look for leaks...like the float valve is not completing turning off the water and the tank water is overflowing into the overflow tube...usually you can also hear such a leak......or the float valve is working fine but the flush flap valve is allowing water to leak out causing the float valve to open to refill the tank. Check you commodes for leaks...even bum guns.

Or even just check the soi water meter to see if any of its metering wheels are turning with the all taps and water pump turned off...like mine has one little spinner that turns even with the smallest amount of water flow....but all that would really do in your setup is to confirm whether the underground storage tank float valve is closing completely when the tank is full and/or check for leaks between the storage tank and the soi mains. It most likely leaks "after" the pump output that would cause a problem like you are having.

"Isolate" water lines, taps, commode bowls, etc., the best you can from the pump's "output." Try to narrow down to where the water is going to...maybe there is a cutoff valve after the pump output somewhere that you can cut off water going to the entire house. The more you can isolate to where the water is going, the more you can narrow in on a possible leak. A leak may not be your problem; but leaks definitely cause problems just like you are having.

Your pressure tank could be bad. If you have a tire pressure gauge, turn off the pump's electrical power, turn off water going to the pump if possible, and then drain the water pressure from the lines by turning on a tap until water no longer runs (assuming there are not some bypass valve installed that allow soi water main pressure to still reach your house when the pump don't work), and then check the pressure of the pressure tank...it should be around 15psi/1bar. It's important you remove all pressure on the pump's output to ensure you get an accurate pressure tank pressure reading. If the pressure tank has no pressure, then you probably have a ruptured rubber diaphragm in the tank which means the tank was most likely water logged...all water & no compressible air which means no compressed air spring/cushion could be created to store energy which can still push water out when the pump is off. And even if you would repressurize the pressure tank to the correct pressure level, if the diaphragm is ruptured then it will only take a few days to few weeks for the air to be absorbed into the water and the tank becomes waterlogged again.

Yeap, finding the core/true cause of a water pump problem can be a pain sometimes as there are several causes that can cause identical symptoms.

[linesma]

Pib,

Thank you for the education on water pumps. I have learned quite a bit and can now intelligently troubleshoot the problem. The technician my wife calls for this kind of thing can speak some English. He is coming by tomorrow or the next day to check on it again, and I will put some of your points to him. Maybe the information you have given me contains the tidbit we need to fix this issue. I will let you know what transpires.

[snarky66]

I would suggest you get the repairman to come back out & troubleshoot it.

Besides a leak a restriction would also cause short cycling.

[khunPer]

The water pump itself has a small pressure tank.

If connected to the main supply, you will need a pressure return valve (don’t know the correct English expression, but a valve with a little spring and a rubber diaphragm inside), stopping the water to run backward into the main supply. They can be obtained from building construction markets like HomePro or HomeMart or any supplier of water pipes. Make sure it is correct size of the inlet pipe; 3/4”, 1” etc.

You shall have a stop valve after that pump/pressure tank, before the pipe goes into the bungalow/house. If you close that valve, the pump shall stop shortly, when the pressure tank is full. If not, you may have a leak in the pump itself; however, then you should be able to see some water drops leaking. If the pump starts to run continuously after opening the valve, you may have a leak somewhere in the house installation. A pro can make a pressure test on the pipes.

The pump pressure switch itself shall not be adjusted. They come factory set with a warning of not adjusting it. The pressure switch shall be same pressure level as the old switch, for example on at 2.4 kg/cm2 and off at 2.8 kg/cm2, ie. a water pressure level around 25-meter high. Some pumps runs as low as 1.2 to 1.5. If too high pressure level switch, the pump motor may not have power enough to supply the pressure.

Another possibility is, that the pump motor has a fault. Typically the condenser is leaking or weak. The condenser sits in the little “house” on top of the motor. Easy to replace (when poser switched of) and has to be of same type, typically 6uf or 10uf. If you replace with a bigger condenser, the pump motor will give a bit more power, and may overheat. Some condensers are wired, and some are plug-in. Condensers can be obtained from water pipe/pump suppliers (typical price around 400 baht, but some charge more, and some less). If the condenser leaks or become to weak, then the pump power falls, and the pump motor will run all time, causing the pump to eventually overheat and damage the anchor-wires inside the motor. Some pump motors have an overheat protection and stops after a while, and cannot be restarted before cooled down.

[BuriramRes]

If the pump is connected directly to the mains, you need a "non-return valve" in the input line such that if the incoming water pressure drops off or stops then you do not lose all your pumps priming, which could mean your pump would then run dry & possibly burn out. These are not expensive & could be purchased from any plumbing shop.

Edited August 8, 2013 by BuriramRes

[thaidel48]

It sounds to me like the pressure swithch needs adjusting. also check that your toilet cisterns are not leaking ( yes I know you said you checked but did that include them ) as this is not obvious .

By the way under Thai law you must have a tank fitted if you have a pump.

[h90]

Well first of all, it is normal to have the pump direct connected to the mains, I think most people have it that way.

Second a non return valve is usually in the pump installed and don't need to be bought extra.

First problem: was very typical the pressure switch.

What you have now could be several things:

1) that red part where the pressure is stored I think in english it is hydropneumatic accumulator (??) is broken (there is a membrane inside) or full with air, or no air behind the membrane.

2) you have a leak somewhere in the tubes/house

3) the non return valve leaks

4) the pressure switch is set wrong. It is like over a certain pressure it turns off the pump. When the pressure falls below a limit it turns it on again. If these two points are too close to each other, it switches all the time (maybe there is just a loose screw for adjusting?).

Anything I forgot?

[Crossy]

OK some pretty good stuff already, a few pointers.

We have an almost identical pump to water 'er indoors veggie garden from our local khlong.

That is a self-priming pump, it will have a non-return valve in the inlet port but these do rust through and fail. If the valve fails or leaks you'll get occasional short pump runs in the middle of the night. Fix that with a second NR valve in the inlet pipe.

Short cycling is invariably lack of air in the pressure tank. Unscrew the tank from the pump (power and water off), shake out as much water as you can, then pump it up at the local garage via the tyre valve on the end. It should have a charge pressure printed on it, but our local garage air pump gets nowhere near it, I just bang as much in as will go (caution, water will come out of the other end). If air comes out of the water inlet the membrane is busted, new tank needed (cheap).

Be careful if you adjust the pressure switch, there are live parts inside that bite (and water all over from your activities on the pressure tank).

EDIT Important! If you've been doing anything that lets the water out of the pump chamber, fill it up again via the plastic plug on the top before running the pump. If you run it without water in that chamber you'll fry the bearings.

[belg]

we had 2x now a leak, under the house

the water pump going crazy was a sign

it costed many thousand baht to fix

[linesma]

OK some pretty good stuff already, a few pointers.

We have an almost identical pump to water 'er indoors veggie garden from our local khlong.

That is a self-priming pump, it will have a non-return valve in the inlet port but these do rust through and fail. If the valve fails or leaks you'll get occasional short pump runs in the middle of the night. Fix that with a second NR valve in the inlet pipe.

Short cycling is invariably lack of air in the pressure tank. Unscrew the tank from the pump (power and water off), shake out as much water as you can, then pump it up at the local garage via the tyre valve on the end. It should have a charge pressure printed on it, but our local garage air pump gets nowhere near it, I just bang as much in as will go (caution, water will come out of the other end). If air comes out of the water inlet the membrane is busted, new tank needed (cheap).

Be careful if you adjust the pressure switch, there are live parts inside that bite (and water all over from your activities on the pressure tank).

EDIT Important! If you've been doing anything that lets the water out of the pump chamber, fill it up again via the plastic plug on the top before running the pump. If you run it without water in that chamber you'll fry the bearings.

Thank you for the reply. When the repairman comes out tomorrow, I will have my wife ask him to check the pressure tank out.

[Joe Mamma]

That looks like a irrigation pump and not a potable water pump. Reason i say that is that these pumps rust with amazing speed and even with the naked eye you see brown rust in the water the first second or so it flows after inactivity.?

[KarnK]

I read good comment 1 and 2 and confirm that they are correct. In addition to that the setup is illegal and all other problem, i want to add the possible TECHNICAL reason for short cycle as follow.

If the pump start like a second and stop for a second. This may be because the pressure tank does not have air in it. air in the pressure tank is compressed during pump on and expand when you use small amount of water until pressure drop to the "on" setpoint on the regulator. While water is incompressible and cant absorb like air, as soon as pump turn on pressure spike to off setpoint and using small amount of water cause pressure to drop to on setpoint. In some setup it can even oscillate on-off by itself when no water use or leak.

What you can do is to turn off power and shut off valve on both inlet and outlet of the pump. Open the plug at the pressure tank, usually at the base of the pump and let all the water to come out until pressure tank empty. Now it has air in the tank you can plug the pressure tank. Open the inlet valve then turn power on. At this stage pump should run for 30-60 sec then stop. Leave outlet valve shut for 15 mins and observe if pump remain off. If it is off then there is no leak up to outlet valve. Now you can open outlet valve while all valve in house shut off ie no water use. Observe for 15 mins pump may turn on couple times to fill flush tank of the toilet but after that it should remain off. This indicate that there is no leak in house. If pump turn on while no water use find the leak. Next is to ensure air volume being maintained, usually these pump require negative pressure or little positive pressure at the inlet. If the pressure is too high like this setup, the auto air filling system, if there is one, will not work. You may install a spring normally supply with the pump at the inlet of the pump that can solve this. However you should ask the landlord to install water tank as well.

I hope this help.

[KarnK]

Just see the picture and notice that the pressure tank may be balloon type where you can fill air like when inflate car tyre. If there is try fill the air and test for air leak. Assuming that you do not have pressure gauge, try fill it at different pressure and observe the result. Like someone said depends on the pump model and setup. Goodluck.

[falang07]

I just closed the valve leading to the tank and use the pump without it. Is this really illegal?

[jacko45k]

That is actually illegal I believe..

Without a tank, using the water pump will draw pressure from all your neighbours, making their water supply fail.

You have to have a tank if you are using a pump.

edit: it actually can cause contaminated water to enter the water mains due to the inverse pressure.. The water mains system is designed so that water can only leak out and not suck dirt in.

You do know we are in Thailand don't you?

But yes the guy has some sort of botch job.......

More suitable is the mains directly feeding a tank, providing there is sufficient incoming pressure.

Then the pump draws from the tank to supply the house.

Often a line from mains to house supply is fitted through a check valve, then the pump and tank may become a backup for when there is no supply.....

[callaway]

Check to see if there is any pressure in the bladder of pressure tank. You will find a car valve on the pressure tank and see if pressure can be let out. If no pressure in there turn off pump and bleed pressure of the line. Then pump in 18psi into the bladder. Then turn all back on. This bladder is used to compensate small pressure losses in the system. I think this will solve your problem. Hope it helps.

[timsims]

I had the same problem from my pump no leaks anywhere pump starting and stopping

it's the toilet system leaking bet you anything it is

you can buy a new system kit for around 200 Bart only replace the rubber seal which lifts

to let the water out

put die in the tank to check for leaks

[linesma]

Okay, so I now know what is going on with my pump. I have a leak under the concrete. When we shut the valve on the pipe leading to the house, the pump turns off! (I did check the toilets. Turned the water off to them individually and it still did not stop the pump.) So now I am looking to find someone to A. come and fix it, or B. Rent a jack hammer and try and fix it myself. We shall see!