Moving to chiang mai

[Garryladouceur]

An excellent question regarding transportation and I shallcread each response with interest.

I have found, that coming from Switzerland with its highly controlled, policed, verified, subsidized and always on time....oops, and expensive..transportation system...they even have these yellow buses that take you to mountain tops on a schedule....that my greatest shock besides the roads themselves, is the state of public transport here in Mexico.

It is private enterprise and i was wondering how this all works in Chiang Mai. Here, we have these combis....vans that spew smoke, are crowded and hot but people are friendly and cheap. 6 pesos. 15 thai bahts. Then there are these fifty year old great hulking buses that spew black smoke since the owners mix deisel with gasoline to save money. Taxis are very cheap but very dirty inside and most lack suspension systems..

I broke down finally and bought an ancient van for 20000 pesos (48000) Bahts, and redid the whole thing, i.e. paint, seats, etc. for another 60000 bahts and i get now to the store to buy my milk. I was stopped by the police a couple of times, probably because i had the car painted, but escaped petty charges by buying them some drinks....i.e. a tip.....

[Torrens54]

Some real sour grapes coming out here but can't say i'm surprised when there appears to be so many miserable git Farang's around CM that seem to find it a struggle to smile. Dare you say 'HI' or 'Hello' they look at you like you are some kind of sub-human ! Very sad way to carry on.

In contrast to the many negative views that have been aired i have always found the Thai people in these parts to be mainly friendly, and they can also be very helpful at difficult times too. I think it's mainly a case of your own attitude towards others and if you have a happy and open disposition you will draw the right kind of reaction.

As for the Smog season; i guess if you live in town or thereabouts it can be pretty overwhelming some years but, out in the boonies things are not half as bad generally. Never had a problem with it in my six years of experience here.

At last, some sanity!

Getting very sick of all the Naysayers. No one is forcing them to live in Chiang Mai and no one will miss them if they go back to whatever hole they crawled out of.

[rbmcn]

Most parts of Mexico have been incompatible with a long and healthy retirement for 15 years. The crime rate has soared and personal security unpredictable. CM, in my experience, is home to a people who are slow to anger, pleasant and respectful of others., whether in town or in the boonies (where I am). Driving expertise is light- years ahead of Mexico. Whether in Vancouver, Puerto Viarta or Mae Rim, drivers can be unexpectedly stupid, aggressive and thoughtless- this is a universal trait, not a Thai trait. I have seen lots of foreign clots pull dangerous stunts on the roads? The people in the North live at a much slower pace than those in Bangkok. This less- pressured approach to life is one of the main attractions to life up here. The Mexican "mañana" means not "tomorrow" here in CM, but rather only " not today". Once that is understood, few problems should arise. There is enough material up here for John Clease to write a never- ending series of sit- coms. Carpenters do not understand rhe concept of " square" or the purpose of a plumb line. Drivers don't know what a solid double line means. Life for many is stunningly simple. Don't knock it. Embrace it, or go elsewhere ' cause its not gonna change soon. Good luck.

[wolf5370]

Any city will have pollution - CM is great in that for a second city it is tiny - once out of the moat area, there are a few circular highways (ring roads), but everything is between large stretched of paddy fields, farms and green land - no pollution where I am at all - 15km from town centre - and a 20baht songtaew ride.

Sorry to interrupt this interesting thread with a question. I am not too familiar with the traffic system in Chiang Mai (not been there yet). So living a little off of the city center (15km as you say) you still find a songtaew that drives you from point A to point B? I was thinking songtaews can mainly be found near the centre but if not this provides actually a lot more option where to live and still being somewhat flexible.

There are several sets of SongTaews. In the centre the red ones will go anywhere in the centre for 20baht- or set fees/negotiated fees externally (or private) but often refuse to go out of town - Hang Dong past Samoeng will cost 250 before haggling for example (that's about 17-20km due South). However Yellow SongTaews will do the same journey for 20baht. Non red Songtaews have routes (although sometimes they change based on time and day) and they have fixed fares too - 10baht up (or 5b up for kids). The non-reds are basically like a bus system (there is a bus system too incidentally which is very cheap but not very regular or reliable and very limited as to routes). There are Blue, White, Yellow, Green and Red SongTaews and they all have different routes (there are actually more than one yellow songtaew route for example - they just reused the colours). There was a post a while back of people posting the routes - a search should hopefully find it (may have maps).

There are also some courtesy ones - for example a free SongTaew (Green) runs from all the main hotels around the Night Bazaar area up to Airport Plaza and back on a fixed schedule - it is free (but only runs during shopping hours) - driver appreciates a tip though if you fill it up - friendly and helpful guy when I have had occasion to use it.

Then there are taxis and tuktuks which can be waves down or called up.

[NCC1701A]

Hola!

Go to Hua Hin.

You can easily afford it on your budget.

Better air, two hours from Bangkok.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Hin_District

http://www.hua-hin.com/

[Postmaster]

Chrisartist has the right points. 2 weeks in Chiang Mai is enough for anyone. Live by the sea and get the sea air not the choking fumes which occur every year

in Chiang Mai. There are plenty of nice places by the seaside without having to plump for the sleazy tourist zones.

[Mitker]

Little has been said here about security.

Coming from Mexico you will be amazed at how low criminality level here is (you will probably still see a few dead bodies if you decide to settle here but rather along the roads ).

So, almost non existent violent criminality of any type is a huge plus in my opinion. Thief or vandalism are also negligible in comparison with western standards. Corruption is another story but here again, coming from Mexico... (and if you read more on TV, you'll discover that some expats seem even to enjoy it).

But yes, the smoke season is a real concern that needs to be dealt according to everyone's situation: some ignore it, others barricade themselves with air filters, others fly away for a couple of months.

Good luck

[junglechef]

I like living in CM and going to Hua Hin for the smokey season. I live around 12 km out of town in the midst of rice fields and the smoke can be terrible enough that I won't go cycling or let my kids play outside on the bad days. As for comparing transportation or anything for that matter to Switzerland is a stretch especially considering costs involved and Mexico is a different place with a different set of circumstances that you sound like your not interested in dealing with anymore. The point can be the exotic nature of Thailand and all that comes with it, so much amazing stuff and a bit of inconvenience or things some might rather not have to deal with as well. I traveled the world for 7 yrs looking for a place to settle down and chose here and am happy with my decision.

[elektrified]

OP; would suggest you visit Chiang Mai first with your wife and stay a while to get the feel of it before jumping in at the deep end. Not easy from Mexico i know but, Thailand suits some of us for varying reasons but it doesn't suit everyone and i've known a few who have come and gone without ever being happy here.

Plenty of reasonably cheap property to rent here, especially 10 klicks or so out of town, gardeners no problem but 'maids' can be more difficult. Cleaner girls are around in reasonable numbers and after some filtering you may get a decent one. Houses with swimming pools are rarer but many 'Moo Baan's' of modern houses have community swimming pools that are empty a lot of the time in my experience; only busy in school holidays.

You can own your own car or motorbike here so no real need for a driver unless you're fearful of driving on Thailand's roads. The road systems here are not too bad but Thai's driving skills leave a lot to be desired, so you have to be alert and have your 100% concentration head on at all times.

No problem with your budget i would think; you may even be able to please your Mrs and save a bit each month !

Thanks mr. Trainman,

I am heading down next month or so once i figure out a flight or get myself a biometric passport since i left switzerland with the old passport. The us seems to require these now. And from mexico city to thailand requires a stop in America.

So perhaps go via London or something like that.

I found a serviced apartment for the short trip in what you call the Old City I think called the Frangiapani. I was planning on staying there a month. If i acclimatize in that period i will make a decision about what to tell the wife. Please, nothing about saving within earshot of the missus. She has half accepted my philosophy....

Well; if your married to her for another zillion years or so she may come to accept your financial philosophy completely !

You've picked the right place to start your adventure in CM but do rent a car or motorbike to explore the outer area's as there is a lot of natural beauty in the vicinity and also many gated community's where you will find houses for rent that will probably be to your liking, particularly to the South of the City.

Everyone has their own way and i know it's really none of my business but, as you are considering living here would it not have been wise to bring the Mrs with you to see if she likes it ? Or perhaps if you like it you will bring her to see things later ? Worst case scenario is you love it and she hates it, sure recipe for a bad start to life in Thailand !

I don't understand why people encourage newcomers to rent/buy/drive a motorcycle? They are VERY dangerous in Thailand and I am sure more than 1/2 the newcomers have never ridden a motorcycle in their life. Bad advise IMO.

Not picking on trainman34014 in particular but I see this "advice" being given often.

[trainman34014]

OP; would suggest you visit Chiang Mai first with your wife and stay a while to get the feel of it before jumping in at the deep end. Not easy from Mexico i know but, Thailand suits some of us for varying reasons but it doesn't suit everyone and i've known a few who have come and gone without ever being happy here.

Plenty of reasonably cheap property to rent here, especially 10 klicks or so out of town, gardeners no problem but 'maids' can be more difficult. Cleaner girls are around in reasonable numbers and after some filtering you may get a decent one. Houses with swimming pools are rarer but many 'Moo Baan's' of modern houses have community swimming pools that are empty a lot of the time in my experience; only busy in school holidays.

You can own your own car or motorbike here so no real need for a driver unless you're fearful of driving on Thailand's roads. The road systems here are not too bad but Thai's driving skills leave a lot to be desired, so you have to be alert and have your 100% concentration head on at all times.

No problem with your budget i would think; you may even be able to please your Mrs and save a bit each month !

Thanks mr. Trainman,

I am heading down next month or so once i figure out a flight or get myself a biometric passport since i left switzerland with the old passport. The us seems to require these now. And from mexico city to thailand requires a stop in America.

So perhaps go via London or something like that.

I found a serviced apartment for the short trip in what you call the Old City I think called the Frangiapani. I was planning on staying there a month. If i acclimatize in that period i will make a decision about what to tell the wife. Please, nothing about saving within earshot of the missus. She has half accepted my philosophy....

Well; if your married to her for another zillion years or so she may come to accept your financial philosophy completely !

You've picked the right place to start your adventure in CM but do rent a car or motorbike to explore the outer area's as there is a lot of natural beauty in the vicinity and also many gated community's where you will find houses for rent that will probably be to your liking, particularly to the South of the City.

Everyone has their own way and i know it's really none of my business but, as you are considering living here would it not have been wise to bring the Mrs with you to see if she likes it ? Or perhaps if you like it you will bring her to see things later ? Worst case scenario is you love it and she hates it, sure recipe for a bad start to life in Thailand !

I don't understand why people encourage newcomers to rent/buy/drive a motorcycle? They are VERY dangerous in Thailand and I am sure more than 1/2 the newcomers have never ridden a motorcycle in their life. Bad advise IMO.

Not picking on trainman34014 in particular but I see this "advice" being given often.

Problem is elek' that getting other people to drive you around never seems to get you to see the things like houses for rent etc that people really want to find and it's far better to follow your own nose around at your leisure. Agents just want to show you what they want you to see.. Agree the Motorbikes are the more dangerous option so probably not the best advice and my bad but, car should be ok if people have any confidence in their own driving.

[Dante99]

Don't worry about the bad air for a couple of months, just go to Bali or someplace else in SE Asia for that period, you have more than enough cash to do that comfortably.

[trainman34014]

Moving like this is such a balancing act. A reason for looking at Chiang Mai for me is that the place is cultural and higher up and I thought less apt to pollution. Plus, It seems to have health services that i dont need on an ongoing basis, but with a tricky ticker, i want to be near these places and a place where they have experts, not only in the hospitals but in the ambulancecthat might have to drive me.

Thus, if I did not have this fear, I might look further afield but alas, fear of the great beyond keeps me tethered to bigger centers.

Original advice still stands no matter what the doom and gloom merchants say........come see for yourself and weigh up the good and bad points of our great City.

[chrisartist]

Budget 25-35k baht for a nice large house (or townhouse) with a reasonable vicinity to the city (12k-18k for a smaller one). 15k baht for an older mid sized house. 15k baht for a house slightly further but a bit newer....and 8k baht to live away from everything in a small two bedroom with outdoor kitchen.

8Km from Chiang Mai town centre on sois just off the main road, you can get perfectly acceptable three-storey townhouses for 6,500 Baht a month. Just off Canal Road in Chiang Mai, about 3Km from the city centre, you can get a three-bedroom single-storey house set in one rai of land of landscaped garden for 12,000 Baht. I am perplexed as to how you arrived at your pricing.

You can find rental properties in Chiang Mai here: http://www.ddproperty.com/en

[chrisartist]

Okay, point taken: living in Mexico leaves something to be desired.

In Thailand, outside urban Bangkok, you can expect the following:

----two-storey detached house with garden in a gated community (moo baan) for from 8,000-40,000 Baht; what you live in is up to you, anything over 20,000 is very nice indeed. I pay 16,000 for a very well-furnished, clean house with air conditioning in which everything works.

----live-out maid for from 8,000 a month, with one day off a week (minimum wage 300 baht per day)

----121,972 baht per month is enough for going out pretty much whenever you like, plus holidays if you want them.

----working wireless internet for 671 Baht per month

----probably a swimming pool and driving range nearby; golf is stretching it a bit, because in Thailand it's a snooty sport and a round is expensive

----I don't hold with cars because they waste oil; I ride a bicycle or take the bus. A bus ride costs from 10-80 baht, depending on how far you travel. Buying a car is expensive, but you can get second-hand ones fairly cheaply

So, from the points of view of finance and convenience, Thailand may well suit you just fine.

Chiang Mai is a different story:

----Unless you go to a bar, where the girls will be friendly because want you to give them money for various things (they wouldn't be working at night unless this were true), people in Chiang Mai are not friendly. In general, in Thailand, the social structure works like this: first, family; second friends; third, people you work with; fourth, people you bump into in your street; fifth, everybody else, in decreasing order of smiling and compassion/concern. You will find it hard to break into the community unless you are working, so you may well not make many friends. This goes *double* for Chiang Mai. I live in a suburb of Chiang mai and it's the most unfriendly place I've ever lived

----For four months of the year, Chiang Mai is covered in a poisonous haze that is caused by locals burning vegetation so they can plant crops. Over a matter of years, there is a cumulative effect. Now, I have to wear a gas mask when the haze comes. if I don't I have to go to the hospital

----In general, I find Chiang Mai people to be less intelligent than their southern cousins in the capital. I surmise that this is true across northern Thailand. I speak to people in both Thai and English and they understand what I'm trying to explain in neither. This failure of communication occurs when the run-of-the-mill Thais are presented with a situation that lies outside their usual, very narrow, way of thinking.

----If you go into the city centre and try to get home, you will be riped off by tuk-tuk drivers. You can get into the city centre for 10 baht on a bus or 40-60 baht in a songtaew or 150 Baht in a tuk-tuk. After 7pm there are no buses, a songtaew is unlikely to want to go, and teh tuk-tuk drivers want 250-300 Baht.

----If you try to cross the road at a pedestrian crossing, the locals will try to run you over (sometimes they speed up once you have set foot on the crossing). You have to wait until there are no cars before you attempt to cross

----Try to get a maid from Burma, because a large percentage of Thai maids think that what's yours is theirs.

I like my particular culdesac in Chiang Mai (nice and quiet) and the house I live in, and I have an honest, hard-working maid (I am lucky in that respect). If I venture further afield, the problems start.

So perhaps Chiang Mai is not the best solution. Rayong, on the eastern seaboard, south of Bangkok, is okay, as are various places in central and north-east Thailand. Have a look on the map, then look places up in the guide books.

I'm not sure what Chaing Mai you are living in, but it sure isn't the one I live in. About the only think you said in your caustic rant that I half way agree with is the smoke problem from burning, and unless you have a different calendar than the rest of us, or different time set on your watch, it's only about TWO months of the year, not four. Twice in 5 years, for different reasons, I've had to take a tuk-tuk to get home from Kad Suan Kaew. I live 18 klm east of the city. Cost? 150 baht both times.

Pedestrian crossings can be a bit nervy at times, but those with the stoplights usually work well for getting traffic to stop.

In reading your post, the only thing I can come up with is that you have a sour disposition and attitude, and a major chip on your shoulder for some reason, which is transmitted to the Thai you encounter. The only thing I'm wondering is why, if you are SO UNHAPPY here, are you still here? Why don't you take your own advice and move to Rayong, or one of the other cities?

Well, I am living in the same Chiang Mai that you are living in. People's experiences differ, so their judgements will differ.

As to the rest of your post, you simply show yourself to be a idiot.

There can be many reasons why a person continues to live in a place where they are unhappy. If you can't think of any yourself, please a friend who is more imaginative than you; but please do consider them before you post more utter drivel.

And before you jump from a great height and take this post as evidence of a sour disposition and a chip on my shoulder, reflect upon what I am responding to and the character of the person that produced it.

If you go around Chiang Mai with your eyes open and are a good judge of character and personality, you will observe in Chiang Mai what I have observed. To do this, you will need to remove your blinkers and perhaps transform your mind so that your observations are not clouded by preconceptions of which you are unaware.

[chrisartist]

Some real sour grapes coming out here but can't say i'm surprised when there appears to be so many miserable git Farang's around CM that seem to find it a struggle to smile. Dare you say 'HI' or 'Hello' they look at you like you are some kind of sub-human ! Very sad way to carry on.

In contrast to the many negative views that have been aired i have always found the Thai people in these parts to be mainly friendly, and they can also be very helpful at difficult times too. I think it's mainly a case of your own attitude towards others and if you have a happy and open disposition you will draw the right kind of reaction.

As for the Smog season; i guess if you live in town or thereabouts it can be pretty overwhelming some years but, out in the boonies things are not half as bad generally. Never had a problem with it in my six years of experience here.

Good post. I find Chiang Mai Thais very friendly in general. As far as the smokey season goes, it bothers some people and not others. I live right in town and hardly ever think about it until I read about it on Thai Visa.

You find Chiang Mai Thais very friendly and you live right in town. Perhaps if you lived *outside* of town your experiences would be very different.

[chrisartist]

To the Original Poster:

If you are 50 or over, you can get what is commonly called a retirement visa. This entitles you to stay for one year and can be extended. You have to report to Immigration every 90 days.

In northern Thailand, there are a lot of Burmese who are kind of lost souls; neither officially Thai nor officially Burmese. They are allowed to stay in Thailand provided they visit the authorites every once in a while (every three or six months, I forget which.) They have a green card that certifies their right to residence. They can speak Thai. It is legal to hire them. A verbal agreement will suffice.

In Chiang Mai city centre, you will find that many people speak a bit of English; enough for you to get by. In the suburbs (and even in one of the major shopping malls, Central Airport Plaza), people generally do not speak English.

On health care, the hospitals are okay. Chiang Mai Ram is recognised as one of the best. You will find that when faced with something that they don't deal with every day, the diagnostic skills of the doctors fall well below that of European doctors. (As a single example, I once went to three different hospitals because I had a rash on both knees and my ankles. All the doctors insisted that I had an allergy. Anti-allergans did clear the problem up, but once I stopped taking them, the problem recurred. I eventually got rid of the problem by changing my diet (eating more green salad.) So, not an allergy, but the doctors were adamant that it was.

On Malaysia: remember that about 30% of the Malaysian population is Chinese and about 12% Indian. You can avoid the Malays almost altogether if Islam is a worry.

If you want high culture (long history, interest in learning, drama, opera, art cinema, strong traditions in philosophy, painting, ceramics, music, etc.), Thailand is not the place to be. It's a kind of low-brow place that's good for hanging out. (I stay here because it's cheap so I don;t have to spend too much money while I'm doing my research. Once I'm ready to start publishing, I'll be off.) If you want more, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and South Korea are your best bets (but getting a visa is not so easy.)

On making friends.......I have to reiterate what I said in an earlier post: it is difficult to make friends with Thais in Chiang Mai. I speak as one who has lived in six countries and has made many friends everywhere. Elsewhere in Thailand, I have made friends, as well; but not in Chiang Mai, in the suburbs, where I live.

Most years, the smoke is bad from January to April; four months.

On transport, if you live outside the city centre but not on the ring road, you will find songtaews. You might even find yourself on a standard bus route. There are real buses, not just government-run yellow songtaews (usually 10-20 baht) and privately run red songtaews (for which you need to negotiate a price, but they are not expensive unless you want door-to-door service.)

I have not found Thai people in Chiang Mai to be helpful in times of need. It depends on your relationship with them. If you know them well, they will help you. if you don't, they will just stand around doing nothing. One important thing you need to know: never, ever lend money to a Thai person, even if you consider them your friend. In almost all cases, you can kiss your money goodbye.

On theft, here is my record:

In the UK (many years), house broken into twice, camera and some money stolen

In the USA (two years), not a problem

In Korea (six years), never any problems

In Malaysia (one year) no problems

In Singapore (one year) no problems.

In Thailand, reported by incident:

1) Gold buddha amulet stolen

2) Crockery stolen

3) House broken into: computer, expensive mobile phone, many DVDs stolen

4) Walkman stolen

5) Various household items stolen

6) Attempt made to steal bicycle

7) Gardening equipment stolen

8) Fruit stolen from the trees in my garden

9) Scammed out of money by Thai housekeeper

[KRS1]

An excellent question regarding transportation and I shallcread each response with interest.

I have found, that coming from Switzerland with its highly controlled, policed, verified, subsidized and always on time....oops, and expensive..transportation system...they even have these yellow buses that take you to mountain tops on a schedule....that my greatest shock besides the roads themselves, is the state of public transport here in Mexico.

It is private enterprise and i was wondering how this all works in Chiang Mai. Here, we have these combis....vans that spew smoke, are crowded and hot but people are friendly and cheap. 6 pesos. 15 thai bahts. Then there are these fifty year old great hulking buses that spew black smoke since the owners mix deisel with gasoline to save money. Taxis are very cheap but very dirty inside and most lack suspension systems..

I broke down finally and bought an ancient van for 20000 pesos (48000) Bahts, and redid the whole thing, i.e. paint, seats, etc. for another 60000 bahts and i get now to the store to buy my milk. I was stopped by the police a couple of times, probably because i had the car painted, but escaped petty charges by buying them some drinks....i.e. a tip.....

For taxis, you simply call them and they will pick you up, the taxis here are top notch and very new. Other than that, public transport consist of red pickup trucks with a roof over the bed. 20 baht within the city 40-100 baht the farther out you go. The trucks are not packed with people standing in them and there are so many that you can wait literally less than a minute for another one to drive by.

You can get a reasonably decent car for 150,000-200,000 baht....a 5 year old model will cost about 300,000-350,000 minimum....85k is possible for basic transport.

[hellodolly]

If your mind isn't set on Chiang Mai/Thailand, you could also explore Malaysia. They've had a project called 'Malaysia, My Second Home - MM2H' running for years. Just google it.

I like CM a lot, and still hope to move there before too long, but I guess we all look for different things.

Regarding the budget, you'll do it well in CM on B120K a month.

As somebody else pointed out, Mexico is a lot like the US, and for that reason it may be worth exploring the possibility of the Philippines who also have a retirement program for foreigners. Check this site www.dumagueteinfo.com There will be many other sites, but Dumaguete seems like a pretty place, geared to foreigners taking up residence. Boracay is another seaside place, but if you fancy a cool climate, try Baguio.

I believe to retire on Malaysia you might need to meet some more stringent measures than here in Thailand. Chiang Mai is not the cheapest or the most expensive place to live in Thailand but for a Westerner retiring it is very reasonably;y priced with many Western things to do. Various clubs and definatly restaurants. Several large movie theaters. If you get the itch to travel in SE Asia air fare is relatively cheap.

Defiantly get around to the outside areas if a house is your thing. Where you are scheduled to stay when you get here is right in the tourist area. A great area but you might want to move to the outskirts. Two different worlds. Mind you the Western life style is moving out there with big shopping malls.

As mentioned before you really should bring the wife. That is a kind thing to say to you. If you don't every thing might turn out OK or maybe not. It definatly is not like Mexico,

Also don't forget they drive on the wrong side of the road here. But Burma and Lao know to drive on the right side of the road.

[KRS1]

To the Original Poster:

If you are 50 or over, you can get what is commonly called a retirement visa. This entitles you to stay for one year and can be extended. You have to report to Immigration every 90 days.

In northern Thailand, there are a lot of Burmese who are kind of lost souls; neither officially Thai nor officially Burmese. They are allowed to stay in Thailand provided they visit the authorites every once in a while (every three or six months, I forget which.) They have a green card that certifies their right to residence. They can speak Thai. It is legal to hire them. A verbal agreement will suffice.

In Chiang Mai city centre, you will find that many people speak a bit of English; enough for you to get by. In the suburbs (and even in one of the major shopping malls, Central Airport Plaza), people generally do not speak English.

On health care, the hospitals are okay. Chiang Mai Ram is recognised as one of the best. You will find that when faced with something that they don't deal with every day, the diagnostic skills of the doctors fall well below that of European doctors. (As a single example, I once went to three different hospitals because I had a rash on both knees and my ankles. All the doctors insisted that I had an allergy. Anti-allergans did clear the problem up, but once I stopped taking them, the problem recurred. I eventually got rid of the problem by changing my diet (eating more green salad.) So, not an allergy, but the doctors were adamant that it was.

On Malaysia: remember that about 30% of the Malaysian population is Chinese and about 12% Indian. You can avoid the Malays almost altogether if Islam is a worry.

If you want high culture (long history, interest in learning, drama, opera, art cinema, strong traditions in philosophy, painting, ceramics, music, etc.), Thailand is not the place to be. It's a kind of low-brow place that's good for hanging out. (I stay here because it's cheap so I don;t have to spend too much money while I'm doing my research. Once I'm ready to start publishing, I'll be off.) If you want more, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and South Korea are your best bets (but getting a visa is not so easy.)

On making friends.......I have to reiterate what I said in an earlier post: it is difficult to make friends with Thais in Chiang Mai. I speak as one who has lived in six countries and has made many friends everywhere. Elsewhere in Thailand, I have made friends, as well; but not in Chiang Mai, in the suburbs, where I live.

Most years, the smoke is bad from January to April; four months.

On transport, if you live outside the city centre but not on the ring road, you will find songtaews. You might even find yourself on a standard bus route. There are real buses, not just government-run yellow songtaews (usually 10-20 baht) and privately run red songtaews (for which you need to negotiate a price, but they are not expensive unless you want door-to-door service.)

I have not found Thai people in Chiang Mai to be helpful in times of need. It depends on your relationship with them. If you know them well, they will help you. if you don't, they will just stand around doing nothing. One important thing you need to know: never, ever lend money to a Thai person, even if you consider them your friend. In almost all cases, you can kiss your money goodbye.

On theft, here is my record:

In the UK (many years), house broken into twice, camera and some money stolen

In the USA (two years), not a problem

In Korea (six years), never any problems

In Malaysia (one year) no problems

In Singapore (one year) no problems.

In Thailand, reported by incident:

1) Gold buddha amulet stolen

2) Crockery stolen

3) House broken into: computer, expensive mobile phone, many DVDs stolen

4) Walkman stolen

5) Various household items stolen

6) Attempt made to steal bicycle

7) Gardening equipment stolen

8) Fruit stolen from the trees in my garden

9) Scammed out of money by Thai housekeeper

In 15 years of living in Thailand here is the theft I experienced:

1) English teacher from Finland stole 5k baht

2) Almost scammed out of 85k baht from British-Swedish national, who was my boss at the time.

3) Traditional Thai massage book stolen by an American professor.

[junglechef]

One of the biggest reasons I moved here after checking out many countries on 4 diff continents is that I feel perfectly safe, never had a problem except in business dealings with auto mechanic for example, and I'm a trusting soul

[LawrenceChee]

I have moved around a lot for my work and lived in many cities in Asia and eventually chose Chiang Mai

1) there is a good international vibe here , you want to hang it with locals yes ...you want to meet foreigners easy as well

2) the restaurants and supermarkets here support a western lifestyle at a reasonable price and most stuff is available

3) there is sufficient and variety stuff / activities here to do here to satisfy the nature lover, the adventure junkie and those who just want to chill

4) you can eat lots of local food here which are really tasty

5) you are not far from international locations with direct flight to Singapore and Kuala Lumpur for shopping and extreme western comforts

6) the small city vibe is great you never feel over crowded like in Bangkok and yet you are not isolated and talking to goats are your only options

The people here are really friendly ..any one who lives here and seem to claim the locals are not friendly has a bit of soul searching to do.

No one will go out to make you feel like a king...but if you are sincere and friendly yourself you will have no difficulty in Chiang Mai or anywhere else making new friends or having helpful neighbors

I find the local here helpful from handphones setups, bike mishaps to just smiles around the place

[bobmac10]

Some real sour grapes coming out here but can't say i'm surprised when there appears to be so many miserable git Farang's around CM that seem to find it a struggle to smile. Dare you say 'HI' or 'Hello' they look at you like you are some kind of sub-human ! Very sad way to carry on.

In contrast to the many negative views that have been aired i have always found the Thai people in these parts to be mainly friendly, and they can also be very helpful at difficult times too. I think it's mainly a case of your own attitude towards others and if you have a happy and open disposition you will draw the right kind of reaction.

As for the Smog season; i guess if you live in town or thereabouts it can be pretty overwhelming some years but, out in the boonies things are not half as bad generally. Never had a problem with it in my six years of experience here.

Good post. I find Chiang Mai Thais very friendly in general. As far as the smokey season goes, it bothers some people and not others. I live right in town and hardly ever think about it until I read about it on Thai Visa.

yeah, the issue is the "entrapment " of the smoke in the city.

Some days it just lingers and never goes away.

They have issued alerts for people with breathing illnesses, but I fear it's going to get worse.

No-one seems to have the authority to tackle it on all fronts.

I live about an hour away and we have much less smoke problem because it's able to blow away with a breeze, whereas in Chiang Mai it seems to just stay around.

[chrisartist]

Responding to Post #44, by chrisartist, Just1Voice said:
"In reading your post, the only thing I can come up with is that you have a sour disposition and attitude, and a major chip on your shoulder for some reason, which is transmitted to the Thai you encounter. The only thing I'm wondering is why, if you are SO UNHAPPY here, are you still here? Why don't you take your own advice and move to Rayong, or one of the other cities?"

On reflection, I find your post very puzzling indeed. I provided factual information, based on personal experience, with the sole aim of helping the Original Poster make an informed decision as to whether or not it might be to his benefit to move to Chiang Mai. Some of the information I presented portrayed Chiang Mai in an unfavourable light.

1) On the basis of this, you concluded that I am very unhappy living in Chiang Mai. Yet such a conclusion is not warranted by the information provided and, in fact, is not true. I am pretty much content with my life in Chiang Mai. I am happy on a day-to-day basis and am achieving here what I set out to achieve. Once I have made sufficient progress, I will reconsider my options. So this is one count on which your post constitutes defamation of character.

Further to this, please note the following. A person can not like something yet not be angry or upset about it. This is because emotions involve cognitive assessment. A person can observe something that he doesn't like, register it, yet simply not have a strong emotional response either way. Now suppose that the person *does* have a negative emotional response in some situations. One is *still* not warranted in concluding that the person in question is unhappy, even if there are quite a number of these emotional responses. This is because happiness is a general state that spans a considerable time period. During that time period, all sorts of things might happen and a person might experience all sorts of emotional states. yet, overall, he may well still be happy.

2) On the basis of what I wrote, in which at no point did I criticise you or any other member of Thai Visa, or any particular member of the Thai community, you chose to launch a rebarbative personal attack on me. This is simply bizarre; I dare not even hazard as guess as to what might have motivated you to launch such a personal attack on someone whom you do not know and who did not attack you. This constitutes a further count on which your post constitutes defamation of character.

Please consider your responses more carefully before writing.

[chrisartist]

To the Original Poster:

If you are 50 or over, you can get what is commonly called a retirement visa. This entitles you to stay for one year and can be extended. You have to report to Immigration every 90 days.

In northern Thailand, there are a lot of Burmese who are kind of lost souls; neither officially Thai nor officially Burmese. They are allowed to stay in Thailand provided they visit the authorites every once in a while (every three or six months, I forget which.) They have a green card that certifies their right to residence. They can speak Thai. It is legal to hire them. A verbal agreement will suffice.

In Chiang Mai city centre, you will find that many people speak a bit of English; enough for you to get by. In the suburbs (and even in one of the major shopping malls, Central Airport Plaza), people generally do not speak English.

On health care, the hospitals are okay. Chiang Mai Ram is recognised as one of the best. You will find that when faced with something that they don't deal with every day, the diagnostic skills of the doctors fall well below that of European doctors. (As a single example, I once went to three different hospitals because I had a rash on both knees and my ankles. All the doctors insisted that I had an allergy. Anti-allergans did clear the problem up, but once I stopped taking them, the problem recurred. I eventually got rid of the problem by changing my diet (eating more green salad.) So, not an allergy, but the doctors were adamant that it was.

On Malaysia: remember that about 30% of the Malaysian population is Chinese and about 12% Indian. You can avoid the Malays almost altogether if Islam is a worry.

If you want high culture (long history, interest in learning, drama, opera, art cinema, strong traditions in philosophy, painting, ceramics, music, etc.), Thailand is not the place to be. It's a kind of low-brow place that's good for hanging out. (I stay here because it's cheap so I don;t have to spend too much money while I'm doing my research. Once I'm ready to start publishing, I'll be off.) If you want more, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and South Korea are your best bets (but getting a visa is not so easy.)

On making friends.......I have to reiterate what I said in an earlier post: it is difficult to make friends with Thais in Chiang Mai. I speak as one who has lived in six countries and has made many friends everywhere. Elsewhere in Thailand, I have made friends, as well; but not in Chiang Mai, in the suburbs, where I live.

Most years, the smoke is bad from January to April; four months.

On transport, if you live outside the city centre but not on the ring road, you will find songtaews. You might even find yourself on a standard bus route. There are real buses, not just government-run yellow songtaews (usually 10-20 baht) and privately run red songtaews (for which you need to negotiate a price, but they are not expensive unless you want door-to-door service.)

I have not found Thai people in Chiang Mai to be helpful in times of need. It depends on your relationship with them. If you know them well, they will help you. if you don't, they will just stand around doing nothing. One important thing you need to know: never, ever lend money to a Thai person, even if you consider them your friend. In almost all cases, you can kiss your money goodbye.

On theft, here is my record:

In the UK (many years), house broken into twice, camera and some money stolen

In the USA (two years), not a problem

In Korea (six years), never any problems

In Malaysia (one year) no problems

In Singapore (one year) no problems.

In Thailand, reported by incident:

1) Gold buddha amulet stolen

2) Crockery stolen

3) House broken into: computer, expensive mobile phone, many DVDs stolen

4) Walkman stolen

5) Various household items stolen

6) Attempt made to steal bicycle

7) Gardening equipment stolen

8) Fruit stolen from the trees in my garden

9) Scammed out of money by Thai housekeeper

In 15 years of living in Thailand here is the theft I experienced:

1) English teacher from Finland stole 5k baht

2) Almost scammed out of 85k baht from British-Swedish national, who was my boss at the time.

3) Traditional Thai massage book stolen by an American professor.

All the theft I experienced was perpetrated by Thais. My list is not comprehensive. There are further incidents, involving various sums of money disappearing without my consent into the pockets of Thais. It would just take too uc time to remember and describe everything. My list is representative.

I am sorry to hear about your experiences ans to learn that you were the victim of western people. However, please understand that, in general, the westerners who end up in Thailand are not representative of westerners in general, whereas in Thailand no selection by travel has taken place. Note also that western societies work more efficiently than Thai society because there is a background of trust. (This is very true of northern European countries, but I have data that suggests that it is not quite so true of southern European countries, such as Spain, Italy and Greece.) In contrast, in Thailand, there is a pervading atmosphere os mistrust, whereby Thais do not feel as though they are able to trust each other; and this affects both how they conduct their everyday affairs and the efficiency of the Thai economy as a whole..

[losworld]

Garry I used to go down to Mexico quite a bit but although no country is perfect I feel Thailand is much safer due mainly to Budhism vs the Machismo mexican attitude I saw a lot down there. Anyway, if you want ot look at a great house to rent or buy not too far from town pm me and I will see if my recently moved friend has his house up for rent or sale yet. It really is a nice piece of property in a nice area.

[chrisartist]

This thread reminds me of the old parable of two villages...

A man who was traveling came upon a farmer working in his field and asked him what the people in the next village were like. The farmer asked "What were the people like in the last village you visited?". The man responded "They were kind, friendly, generous, great people." "You'll find the people in the next village are the same." said the farmer.

Another man who was traveling to the same village came up to the same farmer somewhat later and asked him what the people in the next village were like. Again the farmer asked "What were the people like in the last village you visited?". The second man responded "They were rude, unfriendly, dishonest people.". "You'll find the people in the next village are the same." said the farmer.

I like the post. It's amusing. However, in response, I would just like to say that I have always thought that, as an Indian emigrant (for the purposes of argument) I would find the people in Uganda just as friendly as the people in the UK. (Just in case the example is a bit, outre, by way of explanation, there used to be a large immigrant community of Indian businessmen in East Africa, who were then dispossessed and ordered to leave the country once the countries that had been colonised by the British, the Germans and the Belgians gained independence.)

The pearl of wisdom that you cite draws upon psychological fact regarding some, but not all, people, and ignores actual and significant differences with respect to cultural norms. Here's a significant example of cultural norms. South Koreans really regard foreigners as welcome guests in their country and they value their learning. When you go out with them, they will *insist* on paying. They will insist on paying for *everything* *every time* you go out. it is only when you become good friends (and in Korea it is possible to make good friends) that they will allow you to pay one time and they will pay the next time. In contrast, Thais just don't pay. They always think it's "foreigners' treat". If you have lived in Thailand for a few years, you will have heard the expression "kin moo" (eat pig). This is often heard at restaurants when a number of Thais are eating with a foreigner. it means that the Thais are taking advantage of the foreigner and will expect him to pick up the tab for everybody. This is absolutely unheard of in Korea. A significant cultural difference: Koreans bend over backwards to make foreigners feel welcome and insist on paying for lunch, dinner, or a night out; in contrast, Thais just want a free ride, never mind equal shares.

[hellodolly]

To the Original Poster:

If you are 50 or over, you can get what is commonly called a retirement visa. This entitles you to stay for one year and can be extended. You have to report to Immigration every 90 days.

In northern Thailand, there are a lot of Burmese who are kind of lost souls; neither officially Thai nor officially Burmese. They are allowed to stay in Thailand provided they visit the authorites every once in a while (every three or six months, I forget which.) They have a green card that certifies their right to residence. They can speak Thai. It is legal to hire them. A verbal agreement will suffice.

In Chiang Mai city centre, you will find that many people speak a bit of English; enough for you to get by. In the suburbs (and even in one of the major shopping malls, Central Airport Plaza), people generally do not speak English.

On health care, the hospitals are okay. Chiang Mai Ram is recognised as one of the best. You will find that when faced with something that they don't deal with every day, the diagnostic skills of the doctors fall well below that of European doctors. (As a single example, I once went to three different hospitals because I had a rash on both knees and my ankles. All the doctors insisted that I had an allergy. Anti-allergans did clear the problem up, but once I stopped taking them, the problem recurred. I eventually got rid of the problem by changing my diet (eating more green salad.) So, not an allergy, but the doctors were adamant that it was.

On Malaysia: remember that about 30% of the Malaysian population is Chinese and about 12% Indian. You can avoid the Malays almost altogether if Islam is a worry.

If you want high culture (long history, interest in learning, drama, opera, art cinema, strong traditions in philosophy, painting, ceramics, music, etc.), Thailand is not the place to be. It's a kind of low-brow place that's good for hanging out. (I stay here because it's cheap so I don;t have to spend too much money while I'm doing my research. Once I'm ready to start publishing, I'll be off.) If you want more, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and South Korea are your best bets (but getting a visa is not so easy.)

On making friends.......I have to reiterate what I said in an earlier post: it is difficult to make friends with Thais in Chiang Mai. I speak as one who has lived in six countries and has made many friends everywhere. Elsewhere in Thailand, I have made friends, as well; but not in Chiang Mai, in the suburbs, where I live.

Most years, the smoke is bad from January to April; four months.

On transport, if you live outside the city centre but not on the ring road, you will find songtaews. You might even find yourself on a standard bus route. There are real buses, not just government-run yellow songtaews (usually 10-20 baht) and privately run red songtaews (for which you need to negotiate a price, but they are not expensive unless you want door-to-door service.)

I have not found Thai people in Chiang Mai to be helpful in times of need. It depends on your relationship with them. If you know them well, they will help you. if you don't, they will just stand around doing nothing. One important thing you need to know: never, ever lend money to a Thai person, even if you consider them your friend. In almost all cases, you can kiss your money goodbye.

On theft, here is my record:

In the UK (many years), house broken into twice, camera and some money stolen

In the USA (two years), not a problem

In Korea (six years), never any problems

In Malaysia (one year) no problems

In Singapore (one year) no problems.

In Thailand, reported by incident:

1) Gold buddha amulet stolen

2) Crockery stolen

3) House broken into: computer, expensive mobile phone, many DVDs stolen

4) Walkman stolen

5) Various household items stolen

6) Attempt made to steal bicycle

7) Gardening equipment stolen

8) Fruit stolen from the trees in my garden

9) Scammed out of money by Thai housekeeper

In 15 years of living in Thailand here is the theft I experienced:

1) English teacher from Finland stole 5k baht

2) Almost scammed out of 85k baht from British-Swedish national, who was my boss at the time.

3) Traditional Thai massage book stolen by an American professor.

All the theft I experienced was perpetrated by Thais. My list is not comprehensive. There are further incidents, involving various sums of money disappearing without my consent into the pockets of Thais. It would just take too uc time to remember and describe everything. My list is representative.

I am sorry to hear about your experiences ans to learn that you were the victim of western people. However, please understand that, in general, the westerners who end up in Thailand are not representative of westerners in general, whereas in Thailand no selection by travel has taken place. Note also that western societies work more efficiently than Thai society because there is a background of trust. (This is very true of northern European countries, but I have data that suggests that it is not quite so true of southern European countries, such as Spain, Italy and Greece.) In contrast, in Thailand, there is a pervading atmosphere os mistrust, whereby Thais do not feel as though they are able to trust each other; and this affects both how they conduct their everyday affairs and the efficiency of the Thai economy as a whole..

After I read this line

"Most years, the smoke is bad from January to April; four months."

I immediately thought what kind of bull is that. We as a rule have one and a half to two months of smog. Some years better some worse; March is the one month when you know you will get it all month.

Contrary to some peoples opinions it is common in large areas of Northern Thailand. It is caused by uncontrolled forest fores in China, Burma, Lao, Cambodia and Thailand. Also by the burning off of the rice paddies. It would seem the whole area has an inverted shield or some thing like that holding it in. Pai is even worse than Chiang Mai.

I read your lists and it seemed to me you have been hanging around with some really questionable people.

Mind you I have only lived here for 7 years. Lost my wallet with three credit cards in it and 20,000 baht. They went through the whole thing found a card for the building I live in called them and described me to them . They knew right away who it was called me I went back to the subway where I had left it and they gave it back with nothing missing. I had to just lay three hundred baht on the counter and walk away they didn't want it. I also had it fall out of my pocket once in a tuk tuk and one hour later the fellow brought it back as I was talking to another tuk tuk driver. I gave him 300 baht also.

I find them to be in general more friendly and helpful than I did back where I came from.

[chrisartist]

To the Original Poster:

If you are 50 or over, you can get what is commonly called a retirement visa. This entitles you to stay for one year and can be extended. You have to report to Immigration every 90 days.

In northern Thailand, there are a lot of Burmese who are kind of lost souls; neither officially Thai nor officially Burmese. They are allowed to stay in Thailand provided they visit the authorites every once in a while (every three or six months, I forget which.) They have a green card that certifies their right to residence. They can speak Thai. It is legal to hire them. A verbal agreement will suffice.

In Chiang Mai city centre, you will find that many people speak a bit of English; enough for you to get by. In the suburbs (and even in one of the major shopping malls, Central Airport Plaza), people generally do not speak English.

On health care, the hospitals are okay. Chiang Mai Ram is recognised as one of the best. You will find that when faced with something that they don't deal with every day, the diagnostic skills of the doctors fall well below that of European doctors. (As a single example, I once went to three different hospitals because I had a rash on both knees and my ankles. All the doctors insisted that I had an allergy. Anti-allergans did clear the problem up, but once I stopped taking them, the problem recurred. I eventually got rid of the problem by changing my diet (eating more green salad.) So, not an allergy, but the doctors were adamant that it was.

On Malaysia: remember that about 30% of the Malaysian population is Chinese and about 12% Indian. You can avoid the Malays almost altogether if Islam is a worry.

If you want high culture (long history, interest in learning, drama, opera, art cinema, strong traditions in philosophy, painting, ceramics, music, etc.), Thailand is not the place to be. It's a kind of low-brow place that's good for hanging out. (I stay here because it's cheap so I don;t have to spend too much money while I'm doing my research. Once I'm ready to start publishing, I'll be off.) If you want more, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and South Korea are your best bets (but getting a visa is not so easy.)

On making friends.......I have to reiterate what I said in an earlier post: it is difficult to make friends with Thais in Chiang Mai. I speak as one who has lived in six countries and has made many friends everywhere. Elsewhere in Thailand, I have made friends, as well; but not in Chiang Mai, in the suburbs, where I live.

Most years, the smoke is bad from January to April; four months.

On transport, if you live outside the city centre but not on the ring road, you will find songtaews. You might even find yourself on a standard bus route. There are real buses, not just government-run yellow songtaews (usually 10-20 baht) and privately run red songtaews (for which you need to negotiate a price, but they are not expensive unless you want door-to-door service.)

I have not found Thai people in Chiang Mai to be helpful in times of need. It depends on your relationship with them. If you know them well, they will help you. if you don't, they will just stand around doing nothing. One important thing you need to know: never, ever lend money to a Thai person, even if you consider them your friend. In almost all cases, you can kiss your money goodbye.

On theft, here is my record:

In the UK (many years), house broken into twice, camera and some money stolen

In the USA (two years), not a problem

In Korea (six years), never any problems

In Malaysia (one year) no problems

In Singapore (one year) no problems.

In Thailand, reported by incident:

1) Gold buddha amulet stolen

2) Crockery stolen

3) House broken into: computer, expensive mobile phone, many DVDs stolen

4) Walkman stolen

5) Various household items stolen

6) Attempt made to steal bicycle

7) Gardening equipment stolen

8) Fruit stolen from the trees in my garden

9) Scammed out of money by Thai housekeeper

In 15 years of living in Thailand here is the theft I experienced:

1) English teacher from Finland stole 5k baht

2) Almost scammed out of 85k baht from British-Swedish national, who was my boss at the time.

3) Traditional Thai massage book stolen by an American professor.

All the theft I experienced was perpetrated by Thais. My list is not comprehensive. There are further incidents, involving various sums of money disappearing without my consent into the pockets of Thais. It would just take too uc time to remember and describe everything. My list is representative.

I am sorry to hear about your experiences ans to learn that you were the victim of western people. However, please understand that, in general, the westerners who end up in Thailand are not representative of westerners in general, whereas in Thailand no selection by travel has taken place. Note also that western societies work more efficiently than Thai society because there is a background of trust. (This is very true of northern European countries, but I have data that suggests that it is not quite so true of southern European countries, such as Spain, Italy and Greece.) In contrast, in Thailand, there is a pervading atmosphere os mistrust, whereby Thais do not feel as though they are able to trust each other; and this affects both how they conduct their everyday affairs and the efficiency of the Thai economy as a whole..

After I read this line

"Most years, the smoke is bad from January to April; four months."

I immediately thought what kind of bull is that. We as a rule have one and a half to two months of smog. Some years better some worse; March is the one month when you know you will get it all month.

Contrary to some peoples opinions it is common in large areas of Northern Thailand. It is caused by uncontrolled forest fores in China, Burma, Lao, Cambodia and Thailand. Also by the burning off of the rice paddies. It would seem the whole area has an inverted shield or some thing like that holding it in. Pai is even worse than Chiang Mai.

I read your lists and it seemed to me you have been hanging around with some really questionable people.

Mind you I have only lived here for 7 years. Lost my wallet with three credit cards in it and 20,000 baht. They went through the whole thing found a card for the building I live in called them and described me to them . They knew right away who it was called me I went back to the subway where I had left it and they gave it back with nothing missing. I had to just lay three hundred baht on the counter and walk away they didn't want it. I also had it fall out of my pocket once in a tuk tuk and one hour later the fellow brought it back as I was talking to another tuk tuk driver. I gave him 300 baht also.

I find them to be in general more friendly and helpful than I did back where I came from.

Most years, four months of smog. This is not bull, but fact. I watch closely every year as the haze begins and subsides, as visibility decreases and returns to normal. Some years, it does not clear completely until *August or September*! (A couple of years ago, there was minimal smog, due to the fact that it rained early in the year and the stuff was too wet to burn. This year, the smog did not get bad until late march/early April. However, there was a concerted effort by provincial governments to minimise burning, so I surmise that they stopped the locals from doing it early in the year, then gace them free rein in late March/early April, when the smog was really bad.) Perhaps you should ask on what grounds I base my opinion, rather than simply saying that what I say is bull. By saying "bull", you undermine any credibility that anything you say has, because by saying "bull" you identify yourself as a person who does not gather all the available evidence before pronouncing. You also identify yourself as a rather crass individual.

It might seem to you that I have been hanging around with some really questionable people. I cannot understand why you would make a wild leap to that conclusion. In fact, I live in a respectable area. It may well be that the local residents and their hangers-on are questionable, but if they are, it would mean that the general population of Thailand is questionable. (The bloke who stole fruit from the trees in my garden is a bigwig in CM government. He evidently thinks that opening a closed gate, wandering around inside someone else's property, and helping himself to whatever he finds there' is acceptable behaviour.)

[KRS1]

To the Original Poster:

If you are 50 or over, you can get what is commonly called a retirement visa. This entitles you to stay for one year and can be extended. You have to report to Immigration every 90 days.

In northern Thailand, there are a lot of Burmese who are kind of lost souls; neither officially Thai nor officially Burmese. They are allowed to stay in Thailand provided they visit the authorites every once in a while (every three or six months, I forget which.) They have a green card that certifies their right to residence. They can speak Thai. It is legal to hire them. A verbal agreement will suffice.

In Chiang Mai city centre, you will find that many people speak a bit of English; enough for you to get by. In the suburbs (and even in one of the major shopping malls, Central Airport Plaza), people generally do not speak English.

On health care, the hospitals are okay. Chiang Mai Ram is recognised as one of the best. You will find that when faced with something that they don't deal with every day, the diagnostic skills of the doctors fall well below that of European doctors. (As a single example, I once went to three different hospitals because I had a rash on both knees and my ankles. All the doctors insisted that I had an allergy. Anti-allergans did clear the problem up, but once I stopped taking them, the problem recurred. I eventually got rid of the problem by changing my diet (eating more green salad.) So, not an allergy, but the doctors were adamant that it was.

On Malaysia: remember that about 30% of the Malaysian population is Chinese and about 12% Indian. You can avoid the Malays almost altogether if Islam is a worry.

If you want high culture (long history, interest in learning, drama, opera, art cinema, strong traditions in philosophy, painting, ceramics, music, etc.), Thailand is not the place to be. It's a kind of low-brow place that's good for hanging out. (I stay here because it's cheap so I don;t have to spend too much money while I'm doing my research. Once I'm ready to start publishing, I'll be off.) If you want more, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong and South Korea are your best bets (but getting a visa is not so easy.)

On making friends.......I have to reiterate what I said in an earlier post: it is difficult to make friends with Thais in Chiang Mai. I speak as one who has lived in six countries and has made many friends everywhere. Elsewhere in Thailand, I have made friends, as well; but not in Chiang Mai, in the suburbs, where I live.

Most years, the smoke is bad from January to April; four months.

On transport, if you live outside the city centre but not on the ring road, you will find songtaews. You might even find yourself on a standard bus route. There are real buses, not just government-run yellow songtaews (usually 10-20 baht) and privately run red songtaews (for which you need to negotiate a price, but they are not expensive unless you want door-to-door service.)

I have not found Thai people in Chiang Mai to be helpful in times of need. It depends on your relationship with them. If you know them well, they will help you. if you don't, they will just stand around doing nothing. One important thing you need to know: never, ever lend money to a Thai person, even if you consider them your friend. In almost all cases, you can kiss your money goodbye.

On theft, here is my record:

In the UK (many years), house broken into twice, camera and some money stolen

In the USA (two years), not a problem

In Korea (six years), never any problems

In Malaysia (one year) no problems

In Singapore (one year) no problems.

In Thailand, reported by incident:

1) Gold buddha amulet stolen

2) Crockery stolen

3) House broken into: computer, expensive mobile phone, many DVDs stolen

4) Walkman stolen

5) Various household items stolen

6) Attempt made to steal bicycle

7) Gardening equipment stolen

8) Fruit stolen from the trees in my garden

9) Scammed out of money by Thai housekeeper

In 15 years of living in Thailand here is the theft I experienced:

1) English teacher from Finland stole 5k baht

2) Almost scammed out of 85k baht from British-Swedish national, who was my boss at the time.

3) Traditional Thai massage book stolen by an American professor.

All the theft I experienced was perpetrated by Thais. My list is not comprehensive. There are further incidents, involving various sums of money disappearing without my consent into the pockets of Thais. It would just take too uc time to remember and describe everything. My list is representative.

I am sorry to hear about your experiences ans to learn that you were the victim of western people. However, please understand that, in general, the westerners who end up in Thailand are not representative of westerners in general, whereas in Thailand no selection by travel has taken place. Note also that western societies work more efficiently than Thai society because there is a background of trust. (This is very true of northern European countries, but I have data that suggests that it is not quite so true of southern European countries, such as Spain, Italy and Greece.) In contrast, in Thailand, there is a pervading atmosphere os mistrust, whereby Thais do not feel as though they are able to trust each other; and this affects both how they conduct their everyday affairs and the efficiency of the Thai economy as a whole..

...and the Thais that stole from you are not representative of all Thai people.

The problem with a lot of people that try to analyze Thailand is that they make blanket statements over the entire population, and have only experienced one facet of the people.

Hang around educated people and step up your game.

[LawrenceChee]

Agree...in all my 7 years here the people I met have been really classy and nice educated folks

All willing to help in big or small ways or know someone who can help.