Elephant trekking/tour

[circusman]

Exactly. Don't ride them, full stop / period.

Go and vist Elephant Nature Park and see what Lek Chailert is doing up there.

She rescues them from these tourist traps.

The only one worth a visit.

http://www.elephantnaturepark.org

Lek does an excellent job rescuing elephants who are being mistreated, and is to be commended for her work.

Unfortunately, her Nature Park only supports a couple of elephants. These big beasts require a massive amount of food daily and her property is only just large enough for just a few animals. It would be wonderful if we could remove the towns, villages, resorts, and condominiums that have taken away the natural habitat of the Asian elephant, but that's not going to happen. We'll continue to build more and more, so there is less and less space in the wild for these magnificent animals to feed and live.

The larger Elephant camps, when properly run, support 20-40 elephants. They can afford to feed and care (good veterinary care) so many animals because of all the tourist money coming in. Years ago, before the laws changed to prohibit logging in Thailand, elephants earned their food by daily work... just as you and me. Then their work was stopped by government action, but these same laws made no provisions for feeding the workers. So what do you do with hundreds and hundreds of elephants who need food every day?

There really are only two choices available today;

Kill them

Put them back to work doing something else so they can earn their food. The only work available right now are the shows. That work is certainly easier than hauling huge trees through the jungle all day. Today, the elephants work for about 2-3 hours a day, get good food and great care (in the properly run camps, which are the majority. There are some that are not so good,) and the rest of the day is theirs to relax. I'm sure most humans would love to have a job in which they only had to work 2-3 hours to support themselves.

Some folks think it's demeaning to have an elephant perform like this. Is it any more demeaning than a Hollywood actor, a Nashville singer, or a human circus performer? Spend some time around the elephants at the Mae Sa Elephant camp. 3-4 days there paying attention to the 'attitudes' of the elephants. I think you'll agree than many of them appear to actually enjoy the activities, especially the younger elephants. Hey, kids are kids, regardless of the species.

You hit a point there that I have always wondered about. Do the elephants enjoy the show and the attention?

I in no way agree with some of the barbaric ways of training them that some would have us believe all of them go through. But even if they do go through it what about the rest of their lives if they are fed and taken care of do they prefer that to being left untrained and locked up in a zoo for the rest of their life.

To say return them to the wild is barbaric as we are wiping out the habitat and it would leave them open for poachers and starvation. If a camp is mistreating them shut it down. But consider first what you are going to do with the animal.

I strongly believe many not all of the people who complain about the way they are trained when it is a harsh manor would do nothing them selves to help the animal other than complain.

They are like all most all the anti abortionists back home dead set against even crusading against it yet not willing to raise one finger to help an unwanted baby.

Wow ! You think some of the elephants enjoy doing tricks for visitors? Do you see them smile? How would you know this. Believe me - I worked side-by-side with elephant trainers for many years in USA and Mexico - an elephant would not do a single trick for you unless it feared being beaten. The trainers/handlers are NEVER without the hook in hand. I once approached a trained elephant without a hook with me and got beaten to the ground for my efforts. I knew in a case like that one should roll away from the feet. Luckily I rolled in the right direction and her chain stopped her from stomping me.

Left alone and elephant will stop immediately doing tricks she has be forced to do for years and years.

Back on subject- there is no solution to the problems faced by Thai elephants.

[lovetotravel]

Every conversation group I've read about says riding the elephants is not a good thing. It's my small contribution. Trying to help people understand this.

If nobody rides them, or watch them paint or play football, then maybe these camps will go away and some of the poaching will stop.

Circusman: good point. I've never seen an elephant handler without that nasty looking hook in their hand.

[hellodolly]

Exactly. Don't ride them, full stop / period.

Go and vist Elephant Nature Park and see what Lek Chailert is doing up there.

She rescues them from these tourist traps.

The only one worth a visit.

http://www.elephantnaturepark.org

Lek does an excellent job rescuing elephants who are being mistreated, and is to be commended for her work.

Unfortunately, her Nature Park only supports a couple of elephants. These big beasts require a massive amount of food daily and her property is only just large enough for just a few animals. It would be wonderful if we could remove the towns, villages, resorts, and condominiums that have taken away the natural habitat of the Asian elephant, but that's not going to happen. We'll continue to build more and more, so there is less and less space in the wild for these magnificent animals to feed and live.

The larger Elephant camps, when properly run, support 20-40 elephants. They can afford to feed and care (good veterinary care) so many animals because of all the tourist money coming in. Years ago, before the laws changed to prohibit logging in Thailand, elephants earned their food by daily work... just as you and me. Then their work was stopped by government action, but these same laws made no provisions for feeding the workers. So what do you do with hundreds and hundreds of elephants who need food every day?

There really are only two choices available today;

Kill them

Put them back to work doing something else so they can earn their food. The only work available right now are the shows. That work is certainly easier than hauling huge trees through the jungle all day. Today, the elephants work for about 2-3 hours a day, get good food and great care (in the properly run camps, which are the majority. There are some that are not so good,) and the rest of the day is theirs to relax. I'm sure most humans would love to have a job in which they only had to work 2-3 hours to support themselves.

Some folks think it's demeaning to have an elephant perform like this. Is it any more demeaning than a Hollywood actor, a Nashville singer, or a human circus performer? Spend some time around the elephants at the Mae Sa Elephant camp. 3-4 days there paying attention to the 'attitudes' of the elephants. I think you'll agree than many of them appear to actually enjoy the activities, especially the younger elephants. Hey, kids are kids, regardless of the species.

You hit a point there that I have always wondered about. Do the elephants enjoy the show and the attention?

I in no way agree with some of the barbaric ways of training them that some would have us believe all of them go through. But even if they do go through it what about the rest of their lives if they are fed and taken care of do they prefer that to being left untrained and locked up in a zoo for the rest of their life.

To say return them to the wild is barbaric as we are wiping out the habitat and it would leave them open for poachers and starvation. If a camp is mistreating them shut it down. But consider first what you are going to do with the animal.

I strongly believe many not all of the people who complain about the way they are trained when it is a harsh manor would do nothing them selves to help the animal other than complain.

They are like all most all the anti abortionists back home dead set against even crusading against it yet not willing to raise one finger to help an unwanted baby.

Wow ! You think some of the elephants enjoy doing tricks for visitors? Do you see them smile? How would you know this. Believe me - I worked side-by-side with elephant trainers for many years in USA and Mexico - an elephant would not do a single trick for you unless it feared being beaten. The trainers/handlers are NEVER without the hook in hand. I once approached a trained elephant without a hook with me and got beaten to the ground for my efforts. I knew in a case like that one should roll away from the feet. Luckily I rolled in the right direction and her chain stopped her from stomping me.

Left alone and elephant will stop immediately doing tricks she has be forced to do for years and years.

Back on subject- there is no solution to the problems faced by Thai elephants.

Do you know how to read or understand what is said.

My exact words were

"You hit a point there that I have always wondered about. Do the elephants enjoy the show and the attention?

I have no doubt that those were your experiences. I do have a lot of doubt as to the ability of Americans and Mexican to train and raise Elephants.

I could not tell if an elephant was smiling or not but the ones I saw in the water with the mahouts at Mai Sa I felt were content. But then again I can not read the expression on an elephants face.

[hellodolly]

Every conversation group I've read about says riding the elephants is not a good thing. It's my small contribution. Trying to help people understand this.

If nobody rides them, or watch them paint or play football, then maybe these camps will go away and some of the poaching will stop.

Circusman: good point. I've never seen an elephant handler without that nasty looking hook in their hand.

I think the poaching would only intensify with that many elephants being turned into the wild plus the food supply is no longer there for that many. Maybe if they could eat rice.

I have never read a conversation group on riding them so I wouldn't know but I have read some on how they are trained and they were not very pretty. But then again like horses there are more than one way to train them I am sure.

I have noticed that nasty looking hook also. But some how I feel it does not affect them like it would you or me. Like a horse with a riding crop it affects them different than you and me. I am not really arguing the points I am just curious and when I hear statements that have other alternatives I question the ones who present there's as the only way.

I learned long ago that it is the squeaky wheel that gets the greece and most of the other ones you do not hear from.

This is a pointless discussion as No one has really been able to answer my question.

[FolkGuitar]

Sorry folkguitar, but feeding them is not the #1 problem.

Number 1 or number 5, it makes no difference. If the shows close, who will feed the elephants?

Right now, the only way they have of 'earning their living' is by the shows.

Do you have an alternate solution? If so, what is it. You can't just close the shows without some way to provide food and veterinary care for the animals.

Everyone with pets, children, younger siblings, or students knows that their are two ways of teaching behaviors. You can react to negative actions with loud voice, beatings, torture etc, or react to positive actions with positive reinforcements like praise, encouragement, treats, etc. Why does everyone automatically believe it that only negative enforcements are used all across the board when it comes to elephants?

Excellent point! And Dolly, how does your dog feel about doing tricks? How does a dog feel when he gets attention? Just because an elephant is larger, it is still an animal. Spend some time out at the Mae Sa camp and after 3-4 days around them, you will KNOW how the younger ones feel about it. There will be no question in your mind.

Out of interest, and just to add some weight to your comments what is your expertise and experience when it comes to elephants?

No expertise at all, but hundreds of hours around them, interacting with them.

But a person doesn't need either expertise nor experience to know that elephants need to eat.

So who will feed them when you close the shows?

If nobody rides them, or watch them paint or play football, then maybe these camps will go away

And if the camps close, who will pay for the elephant's food? You? As someone said earlier, the anti-abortionists are quick to say loudly; 'have the baby' but rather quiet when someone asks them to feed and care for the baby.

Regardless of the problems. Regardless of the morality. Regardless of the ethics.... Someone has to feed the elephants. Will you do it? Donating a few hours a week to wash and clean them is wonderful, and certainly helpful to the 4-5 elephants in the nature park. But how about the other 5,995 elephants in Thailand?

[FolkGuitar]

I think the poaching would only intensify with that many elephants being turned into the wild plus the food supply is no longer there for that many. Maybe if they could eat rice.

Dolly, there wouldn't be poaching for very long. How many farmers are going to permit elephants to trample their crops? Chicken-wire fences aren't going to keep them from crossing a farmers fields, and you can be sure the elephants aren't going to stay on the paddy dykes. How about a herd of 5-8 elephants trying to pass through a hilltribe village of bamboo huts? Perhaps one or two might enjoy a swim in a condo pool? Remember those signs on the sides of the roads warning about deer crossings? Do you realize that deer are responsible for more human deaths than any other animal in North America. Now imagine Thai drivers on curvy roads at night....

No... there wouldn't be poaching for very long.

[craigt3365]

Go ask this one if it'd be OK to ride on his back.

[junglechef]

hellodolly and all, it's not that difficult to see wild elephants here, way easier than in America for sure! But honestly I've seen them in three different National Parks here (Nam Nao, Kui Buri and Kaeng Krachin), and didn't even have to get out of my car. Of course I did and have a lovely pic. of my GF holding our 1 yr old baby with a family of 10 elephants behind. All three parks were not reserves or sanctuaries but just huge tracks of jungle with a few roads and sometimes a few cabins one can stay in which is great for a natural experience (esp. for Mt. Bikers!), and some park buildings. I've seen lots of wildlife incl. large herds of guar, many kinds of deer and YES smiling elephants (see pic.)

p.s. Please don't think ill of me but if you want to see me smile play one of those videos of elephants turning on their captors.

[lovetotravel]

Every conversation group I've read about says riding the elephants is not a good thing. It's my small contribution. Trying to help people understand this.

If nobody rides them, or watch them paint or play football, then maybe these camps will go away and some of the poaching will stop.

Circusman: good point. I've never seen an elephant handler without that nasty looking hook in their hand.

I think the poaching would only intensify with that many elephants being turned into the wild plus the food supply is no longer there for that many. Maybe if they could eat rice.

I have never read a conversation group on riding them so I wouldn't know but I have read some on how they are trained and they were not very pretty. But then again like horses there are more than one way to train them I am sure.

I have noticed that nasty looking hook also. But some how I feel it does not affect them like it would you or me. Like a horse with a riding crop it affects them different than you and me. I am not really arguing the points I am just curious and when I hear statements that have other alternatives I question the ones who present there's as the only way.

I learned long ago that it is the squeaky wheel that gets the greece and most of the other ones you do not hear from.

This is a pointless discussion as No one has really been able to answer my question.

Poaching is happening now just to fill demand for elephants in these camps. How would getting rid of the camps increase poaching? I'm no expert, but from what I read, protection of habitat is the #1 issue. Along with reducing the world's population!

If you can watch this video and in any way say that hook doesn't hurt...well....Also check out how they treat them when logging.

Sorry, but habitat protection is the best solution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcvGGe-zpIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U1BAev3RuA

Lots more videos of this out there to look at. Pretty horrible.

I think your question has been answered????

[FolkGuitar]

Sorry, but habitat protection is the best solution.

Right now, there is not enough habitat to feed and protect the 6,000 elephants currently in Thailand. Perhaps only 2,000 animals, if that many.

Not doubt we should protect the habitat, but who is going to feed the other 4,000 elephants?

I've asked this question again and again, and not one of you has come up with a solution. It's easy to say 'stop the cruelty.' It's easy to say 'protect that habitat. It's not so easy to feed the existing herd.

If it was, one of you would have told us how, if for no other reason than to shut me up!

If you close the shows and remove the camps the elephant starve. If you can't come up with a way to feed them first, please don't take away their only source of food and make them slowly starve to death. That's even less humane, even more cruel, than the few uncaring mahouts will ever be.

Also check out how they treat them when logging.

Logging with elephants has been outlawed for years in Thailand.

Edited August 25, 2013 by FolkGuitar

[lovetotravel]

Please do some research before posting. Some reports say there are only 1,000 wild elephants left in Thailand. Plenty of food, not enough land. The ones getting poached now are from Myanmar. Let's hope something can be do to help them with preservation.

http://www.eleaid.com/index.php?page=elephantsinthailand

Many Thai experts believe the number of wild elephants to be very much lower than the figures quoted above and some put the total number at below 1,000.

[hellodolly]

Please do some research before posting. Some reports say there are only 1,000 wild elephants left in Thailand. Plenty of food, not enough land. The ones getting poached now are from Myanmar. Let's hope something can be do to help them with preservation.

http://www.eleaid.com/index.php?page=elephantsinthailand

Many Thai experts believe the number of wild elephants to be very much lower than the figures quoted above and some put the total number at below 1,000.

With out the camps they would all go back to the wild. There would be no poaching to sell them to the camps. It would how ever increase the number being poached to feed the Ivory trade.

As for habitat protection sorry but the horse is already out of the barn on that one. That should have been done 50 years ago. Even at that look at the number of resorts that have been built in National parls with out permision. A poacher would no more care about it being a habitat protection area than he would about it being illegal in the first place. Any partgicular part of Bangkok you want to turn in to a habitat protection area. Remember they were there first.

The only thing they can do now is try to make sure the exsisting camps treat them in a decent manner they are well fed and their medical needs are met.

You gain nothing by promoting things that will not work today. That is not to say they wouldn't work if you just shot the extra ones who would be unable to survive in the areas protected. Even then it would still bring the poachers out. Some how I feel that is not what you want.

[FolkGuitar]

Please do some research before posting. Some reports say there are only 1,000 wild elephants left in Thailand.

That's about correct. "Wild" elephants. But there are thousands more all over the Kingdom. Hundreds in Chiang Mai Province alone. MY research shows a total of 6,000. Please don't make assumptions that you are the only one who uses a search engine.

You still haven't told us what you will do to feed all the elephants currently in camps and shows, if you take away their source of income. There isn't enough habitat to support them all.

Edited August 25, 2013 by FolkGuitar

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I like riding elephants (I also like riding horses).

Do I care about how the animals are treated and trained, not a all. As long as the beasts look healthy.

Loads of good places around CM.

The Elephant camp on the road out from Mae rim does a good elephant show, the short ride isn't very good, but the half day trek is supposedly much better.

The road to Doi Inthanon from San Patong has 3 or 4 elephant camps. The one right on the river does a nice trek that is partially in the river. The one in the Jungle has a nice route.

Just go out there and haggle them down, you can't haggle when a tour group is present. Fixed prices when eyes are watching.

Edited August 25, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Johpa]

I am confused about the breeding programs that Johpa mentions. If there is not enough natural habitat for releasing them and not enough money to feed the existing animals why are they doing this? If it's secure future generations what are the plans to secure funding to feed and care for them? Are their numbers so low that this is necessary? And are they all going to be protected for a happy life free of abuse? I appreciate your knowledge in considering there questions.

Perhaps "breeding program" was too strong a word. I don't believe there is any forced or artificial breeding program. But the environment allows the herd to be self-sustaining. And the presence of vets increases infant survival. Our elephant's first born would have never survived without significant human intervention. With a successful, lacking a better word, breeding program, perhaps positive breeding evnironment, the larger camps are able to maintain a population without having to purchase on the rather questionable open market.

And although we can not say how the elephants feel about performing tricks, there was no question that when our elephant was returned to the Mae Sa camp after an extended abscence working at some second rate camps, that her trumpeting and other physical reactions to being reunited with that herd displayed significant approval if not outright joy.

Look, I am not in disagreement with any side here. It would be great if there were enough tourists willing to pay enough money to support the current population at camps without the rides and without the tacky shows. It would be great if there existed enough protected park space to release all the domesticated elephants into the wild. But currently the best bet for the survival of the species is the current mix of wild herds and domesticated camps including those with the tacky shows. And don't forget, those tacky shows at the larger camps not only provide financing to care for large herds, they also create large number of jobs for the local human population.

Below is an old pic of my two lads wrestling. Although I no longer own the elephants, both lads are doing very well in Chiang Mai. One can still be seen up at the Mae Sa camp and the other is often spotted in the evening in the wilds of Nimaanhaem.

[DaamNaam]

I like riding elephants (I also like riding horses).

Do I care about how the animals are treated and trained, not a all. As long as the beasts look healthy.

Loads of good places around CM.

The Elephant camp on the road out from Mae rim does a good elephant show, the short ride isn't very good, but the half day trek is supposedly much better.

The road to Doi Inthanon from San Patong has 3 or 4 elephant camps. The one right on the river does a nice trek that is partially in the river. The one in the Jungle has a nice route.

Just go out there and haggle them down, you can't haggle when a tour group is present. Fixed prices when eyes are watching.

“You can judge a man's true character by the way he treats his fellow animals.”

― Paul McCartney.

[butterisbetter]

Any elephant that is under the care of human beings needs to be trained in order for it to be given proper veterinary care.

Edited August 25, 2013 by butterisbetter

[northernjohn]

Any elephant that is under the care of human beings needs to be trained in order for it to be given proper veterinary care.

I have read all the posts and it is obvious to me that some posters have no idea. For instance the one poster who said food was not the first thing. Others had recommendations some good some not. But this is the first post that addresses the reward system of training.

Through all the talk on both sides I kept wondering if that method was used here in Thailand. Thank you for bringing it up. I realize that there may well be a hand full of posts saying it is not done but I doubt that the posters that say that have been in all the camps. I do know that there are a lot that do not use the reward system,

I would also like to thank Johpa for his post. It was mentioned earlier about an elephants feelings and I know they are two different animals but many dogs with good owners like to please their masters.

[circusman]

Any elephant that is under the care of human beings needs to be trained in order for it to be given proper veterinary care.

I have read all the posts and it is obvious to me that some posters have no idea. For instance the one poster who said food was not the first thing. Others had recommendations some good some not. But this is the first post that addresses the reward system of training.

Through all the talk on both sides I kept wondering if that method was used here in Thailand. Thank you for bringing it up. I realize that there may well be a hand full of posts saying it is not done but I doubt that the posters that say that have been in all the camps. I do know that there are a lot that do not use the reward system,

I would also like to thank Johpa for his post. It was mentioned earlier about an elephants feelings and I know they are two different animals but many dogs with good owners like to please their masters.

I have been around elephants and other wild animals during my circus career. Every day for nine months a year in America I lived amoung the animals and trainers. Rewards for the big cats yes, for elephants NEVER. They will see you as weak and someday take advantage. We had 35 elephants on this circus. All trained and all afraid of the hook (ankus).

Edited August 26, 2013 by circusman

[lovetotravel]

Any elephant that is under the care of human beings needs to be trained in order for it to be given proper veterinary care.

I have read all the posts and it is obvious to me that some posters have no idea. For instance the one poster who said food was not the first thing. Others had recommendations some good some not. But this is the first post that addresses the reward system of training.

Through all the talk on both sides I kept wondering if that method was used here in Thailand. Thank you for bringing it up. I realize that there may well be a hand full of posts saying it is not done but I doubt that the posters that say that have been in all the camps. I do know that there are a lot that do not use the reward system,

I would also like to thank Johpa for his post. It was mentioned earlier about an elephants feelings and I know they are two different animals but many dogs with good owners like to please their masters.

Not sure if you were referring to my comments about food not being the #1 issue. If it was me, what I was trying to get across is the habitat will provide food and protection, if administered properly. Then food (and protection from poaching) wouldn't be an issue. Backwards logic I know. Sorry for the confusion. I was in Africa recently where they have huge herds in protected habitats. Well, mostly protected.

My wife tells me she's seen them breaking young elephants in her village when she was young. They did it just like in the video. Horrible. Definitely not the reward system. Again, I've yet to see an elephant handler without that hook. I'm sure there are some, but not many.

[FolkGuitar]

If it was me, what I was trying to get across is the habitat will provide food and protection, if administered properly.

It would have, if it was still available. Unfortunately, man has removed too much of the natural habitat to support the remaining elephants. The only way to get it back would be to bulldoze down the cities and towns and allow the farmlands to revert to jungle. Africa still has vast tracks of land, empty for hundreds of miles in all directions, which can and does support great numbers of wild animals.

When was the last time you saw large wild mammals wandering in the Thai jungles?

[lovetotravel]

If it was me, what I was trying to get across is the habitat will provide food and protection, if administered properly.

It would have, if it was still available. Unfortunately, man has removed too much of the natural habitat to support the remaining elephants. The only way to get it back would be to bulldoze down the cities and towns and allow the farmlands to revert to jungle. Africa still has vast tracks of land, empty for hundreds of miles in all directions, which can and does support great numbers of wild animals.

When was the last time you saw large wild mammals wandering in the Thai jungles?

There are still large wild mammals in the jungles here. But as you say, very few. Their habitat is shrinking day by day. Quite a bit in the countries around here through. Would be great to setup sanctuaries there right now. That's where most of the poaching is going on anyway.

[circusman]

Any elephant that is under the care of human beings needs to be trained in order for it to be given proper veterinary care.

I have read all the posts and it is obvious to me that some posters have no idea. For instance the one poster who said food was not the first thing. Others had recommendations some good some not. But this is the first post that addresses the reward system of training.

Through all the talk on both sides I kept wondering if that method was used here in Thailand. Thank you for bringing it up. I realize that there may well be a hand full of posts saying it is not done but I doubt that the posters that say that have been in all the camps. I do know that there are a lot that do not use the reward system,

I would also like to thank Johpa for his post. It was mentioned earlier about an elephants feelings and I know they are two different animals but many dogs with good owners like to please their masters.

Not sure if you were referring to my comments about food not being the #1 issue. If it was me, what I was trying to get across is the habitat will provide food and protection, if administered properly. Then food (and protection from poaching) wouldn't be an issue. Backwards logic I know. Sorry for the confusion. I was in Africa recently where they have huge herds in protected habitats. Well, mostly protected.

My wife tells me she's seen them breaking young elephants in her village when she was young. They did it just like in the video. Horrible. Definitely not the reward system. Again, I've yet to see an elephant handler with that hook. I'm sure there are some, but not many.

Who are you trying to fool? I have never seen a handler WITHOUT a hook. I think we need to disregard anything you say on the subject of elephants.

[FolkGuitar]

Who are you trying to fool? I have never seen a handler WITHOUT a hook. I think we need to disregard anything you say on the subject of elephants.

Perhaps it might be a good idea for you to visit the Mae Sa elephant camp. It may give you a different perspective. While many of the mahouts do carry a short hook, there are quite a few who do not. Go see for yourself.

Edited August 26, 2013 by FolkGuitar

[DaamNaam]

Who are you trying to fool? I have never seen a handler WITHOUT a hook. I think we need to disregard anything you say on the subject of elephants.

Perhaps it might be a good idea for you to visit the Mae Sa elephant camp. It may give you a different perspective. While many of the mahouts do carry a short hook, there are quite a few who do not. Go see for yourself.

Mae Sa one of the worst offenders. Plenty of hooks in use there. Maybe just not in front of the punters.

[junglechef]

Who are you trying to fool? I have never seen a handler WITHOUT a hook. I think we need to disregard anything you say on the subject of elephants.

Perhaps it might be a good idea for you to visit the Mae Sa elephant camp. It may give you a different perspective. While many of the mahouts do carry a short hook, there are quite a few who do not. Go see for yourself.

As you answered that you are not expert in the field, most likely like the majority of us posting here including myself, but as you have put up so many comments I do wonder why you have spent "hundreds of hours" at the Mae Sa Camp. Are you just one of their best customers? Perhaps a tour guide or operator? Please do tell!

[lovetotravel]

Any elephant that is under the care of human beings needs to be trained in order for it to be given proper veterinary care.

I have read all the posts and it is obvious to me that some posters have no idea. For instance the one poster who said food was not the first thing. Others had recommendations some good some not. But this is the first post that addresses the reward system of training.

Through all the talk on both sides I kept wondering if that method was used here in Thailand. Thank you for bringing it up. I realize that there may well be a hand full of posts saying it is not done but I doubt that the posters that say that have been in all the camps. I do know that there are a lot that do not use the reward system,

I would also like to thank Johpa for his post. It was mentioned earlier about an elephants feelings and I know they are two different animals but many dogs with good owners like to please their masters.

Not sure if you were referring to my comments about food not being the #1 issue. If it was me, what I was trying to get across is the habitat will provide food and protection, if administered properly. Then food (and protection from poaching) wouldn't be an issue. Backwards logic I know. Sorry for the confusion. I was in Africa recently where they have huge herds in protected habitats. Well, mostly protected.

My wife tells me she's seen them breaking young elephants in her village when she was young. They did it just like in the video. Horrible. Definitely not the reward system. Again, I've yet to see an elephant handler with that hook. I'm sure there are some, but not many.

Who are you trying to fool? I have never seen a handler WITHOUT a hook. I think we need to disregard anything you say on the subject of elephants.

oops...meant to say WITHOUT that hook. My mistake. Sorry.

A quick Google search came up with this. Which is what, in my personal experience, I see all the time.

And in this image a hook used during a show. Most pics I just Googled had them using a hook during performances, or at least a stick that looked like one.

[FolkGuitar]

Who are you trying to fool? I have never seen a handler WITHOUT a hook. I think we need to disregard anything you say on the subject of elephants.

Perhaps it might be a good idea for you to visit the Mae Sa elephant camp. It may give you a different perspective. While many of the mahouts do carry a short hook, there are quite a few who do not. Go see for yourself.

As you answered that you are not expert in the field, most likely like the majority of us posting here including myself, but as you have put up so many comments I do wonder why you have spent "hundreds of hours" at the Mae Sa Camp. Are you just one of their best customers? Perhaps a tour guide or operator? Please do tell!

A combination of someone who loves elephants, someone one who loves to photograph elephants, someone who studied ecology and biology, and someone one who had dozens of friends come to visit Chiang Mai and wanted to get up close with elephants. Having spent so much time there over the course of 10 years, I became friends with several of the mahouts, who permitted us to go into areas the general public was kept away from. (At least until the camp owners decided that was too much of an insurance risk.)

And actually, not just the Mae Sa camp. I spent many, many hours in quite a few different elephant camps all over northern and southern Thailand. Perhaps 10-12 different camps, but concentrating my time in northern Thailand. The combination of all of those gave me an in-depth knowledge of the Thai elephant situation.

I always found it better to get my information first hand, and get it from many different sources. It's all too easy to fall into per-conceived ideas about what is 'best' for a given situation, especially when it is an emotionally charged one. Most people, especially in this thread, want to 'do good' for the elephant community. There is no question about that. But doing good requires more than just knee-jerk reaction to sensational media. It requires science. And, unfortunately, it requires money.

[lovetotravel]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/663638-police-crackdown-targets-pattaya-elephant-village/#entry6758893

[FolkGuitar]

No one is trying to say that there aren't problems with illegal activities using elephants. We all know that there are. There is still illegal logging going on using elephants in many parts of Thailand that needs to be addressed, not just the few unscrupulous mahouts who abuse the animals.

The trick is NOT TO CREATE MORE PROBLEMS with knee-jerk reactions. Emotion is good, but it needs to be mixed with scientific reality.

This has happened all too many times in the efforts of well-meaning people to care for animals. There IS a need to protect the animals.

We do NOT protect them by taking away their food and medical care.

If we want to close the camps, we need to FIRST figure out how to provide food and medical care for the elephants in modern-day Thailand. We can't simply turn them all loose into the wild. There simply isn't enough 'wild' left in Thailand to keep them safe.