step daughters father refusing permision to allow daughter out of the country

[snowgard]

If I see how much here talk about pay cash, I understand why so much THAIS believe we FARANGS are ATM's.

Sure maybe it's a easy way. But maybe NOT!!! I believe the last!!!

If they are not married and him don't want allow it and the amphur also don't want allow to give a passport you can go to the familycourt. This is almost cheaper than pay cash to the producer!!!

Here are some helpful links:

http://www.thailand-family-law-center.com/thailand-child-support/

http://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/Child-Support-in-Thailand.php

[theblether]

The answer is cash, GK has got it all wrong suggesting you go fixing for a fight. You are in no position to get involved in any type of long distance legal dispute. You'll end up getting milked by the lawyer and the case will stretch out as long as he wants it to.

To make it even worse, you might end up with the father swooping in and taking the child, saying that the mother abandoned her. How do you fancy them bananas? No one knows who is at the back of Thai family dynamics, always be careful, very careful of Thai Collective Intelligence.

There are far far far too many smart ass farangs out there that thought they could outwit the Thais and well, you know, ............................................................

Fill in the blanks yourself.

Sit down and work out a budget to buy him out, obviously go in low and see what happens. A spoonful of sugar and a bucket load of cash will go a long way, oh.......and tell him that she will get a fantastic education, which will lead to a wonderful job, with amazing money, so that she can look after him when he is old.

It's nice that in addition to having expertise on all matters, you now deem yourself competent to offer advice on family law in Thailand.

Although my comment was made prior to knowing that the child is considered to be illegitimate as it was born out of wedlock, the father is still liable for child support as it is his name on the birth certificate. Had it been the mother's name, he could have avoided responsibility. These types of cases have been discussed on Thai legal forums and blogs for decades.

Where did I say go have a fight? Perhaps you get into fights because you launch into a babble fest, but the reality here is that if the father has acknowledged "ownership" of the child, then the father is liable for the costs of child care. Do you always back down when faced with a difficult situation and offer money? Has it occurred to you that offering money at this point will only encourage the behaviour. Perhaps you do not have access to a professional competent lawyer, but there are decent legal professionals in Thailand. It is not an expensive process if one sets down the rules ahead of time. This isn't about a battle of wits, although, I certainly won't question your lack of confidence. There need not be a confrontation, nor even a fight. A simple lawyer's letter is often enough to encourage co-operation. It is shameful that 2 elderly grandparents are obliged to raise the child. The father's behaviour isn't acceptable behaviour in Thailand, Now maybe, some foreigners think that's how Thais are, but the reality is that thailand has some very conservative social values, and Daddy-o is on the hook.

Just being nosy, what's to stop the father taking the hump and petitioning the court as Mario pointed out? Nothing huh?

What's to stop the father from abducting the daughter? Nothing.

I pointed out very clearly.......

" No one knows who is at the back of Thai family dynamics, always be careful, very careful of Thai Collective Intelligence. "

Are you prepared to state for a fact that you know this guy won't have someone able to advise and pull strings for him? I know you're not because no one is that dense.

So what's your position? To get the OP, who has clearly stated that he doesn't have the financial strength that he would like, to send a letter to a Thai father and threaten him. Let's imagine he takes the hump and petitions for the daughter.........what would you say then? So sorry old chap? After all it would have been you that advised the best way is to open a legal can of worms.

Oh, and we all know the hell that Scott1999 went through when his daughter was abducted, don't we? How much has that cost him financially and emotionally?

So here's a little bit of advice for you GK, don't ever go looking for fights, go looking for solutions. You don't need to be a Thai expert to know that, just an averagely wise member of the human race.

So my advice to the OP stands, which is...............

"Sit down and work out a budget to buy him out, obviously go in low and see what happens. A spoonful of sugar and a bucket load of cash will go a long way, oh.......and tell him that she will get a fantastic education, which will lead to a wonderful job, with amazing money, so that she can look after him when he is old."

The OP may be shocked at how easily all this could be resolved. Alternatively he could go down your confrontational route and be devastated by the reaction.

Don't go fixing for a fight, especially when you don't have the resources for it, go searching for solutions.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I never understand why so many foreigners want to take care of other men's children.

Seems strange to me!

[edwinchester]

I never understand why so many foreigners want to take care of other men's children.

Seems strange to me!

Maybe they fall in love with a woman who has a kid from a previous marriage.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jay Sata]

His timely demise from motor cycle accident should negate the need for permission

How many more times:

THEY WERE NEVER MARRIED; SHE DOES NOT NEED HIS PERMISSION!!!!!!!

Got it now?

Well that sort of attitude get's you no where with a Thai man in this situation.

If you have spent as much time in Thailand as I have over the years 7by7 you'll know the sensible thing to do is avoid confrontation at all costs.

Face is important and loss of it can lead to tragedy.

Reading between the lines this Thai father has dug his heals in for whatever reason. We've not been told he is looking for money or how close he lives to the grandparents.

As others have suggested an amicable arrangement is best for all parties.

[Trotto]

Legitimation of Children in Thailand

http://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/Legitimation-of-a-Child-in-Thailand.php

I'm no legal expert but according to the link above, the father has legal rights over the child as he is on the birth certificate. To me, it's not rocket science, it's not disputed that he is the biological father and unless there is some sort of court order against him, rightly or wrongly he has rights! To obtain what you want, especially as you are in the UK, is going to be a long, tedious and expensive task.

As you know, if / when you apply for her settlement visa you will be required to submit her birth certificate with a legalised letter from the father giving his consent or a Thai court order stating he has no custodial rights. IMO, those that say it is not necessary are wrong and failure to disclose all circumstances could cost you and your wife the reunion you desire with the child. The way the UKBA is, any discrepancy will give them the opportunity to refuse.

I'll agree with some other posters on this one, although not ethical, a plea about a better education etc. and some form of financial compensation could be the quickest and cheapest solution in the long run.

Just out of interest, what's the grandparents take on all this? Their influence could be crucial.

The birth certificate is not legitimization.

[theblether]

His timely demise from motor cycle accident should negate the need for permission

How many more times:

THEY WERE NEVER MARRIED; SHE DOES NOT NEED HIS PERMISSION!!!!!!!

Got it now?

Well that sort of attitude get's you no where with a Thai man in this situation.

If you have spent as much time in Thailand as I have over the years 7by7 you'll know the sensible thing to do is avoid confrontation at all costs.

Face is important and loss of it can lead to tragedy.

Reading between the lines this Thai father has dug his heals in for whatever reason. We've not been told he is looking for money or how close he lives to the grandparents.

As others have suggested an amicable arrangement is best for all parties.

7x7 has chosen to overlook the fact that she has already sought his permission and been refused. I would call that a dreadful oversight. It has quite obviously changed the dynamic in this situation.

So let's suppose that 7x7 is correct, and that she did not need to ask. What would his advice be now that the horse has bolted?

[jackspratt]

I never understand why so many foreigners want to take care of other men's children.

Seems strange to me!

I imagine any explanation would go right over your head.

[7by7]

Mr. Sata; no need for any confrontation; Blether, the horse has not bolted.

She has legal sole custody; his permission is not required.

It's not me saying that; it's the Thai government!

For the same reason as my wife did not need her ex husband's permission to obtain a passport for her daughter nor for her daughter's subsequent UK settlement visa; because she had sole legal custody.

I know, both of you, that either of you ever admitting you were wrong is as likely as me walking on the moon; but you are.

Edited September 3, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

If the guy has persisted for so long I'm sure he'll have family and friends in the village offering him suggestions and advice.

Quite frankly anyone who thinks that Thai's rely on websites and the law to resolve their issues is foolish. He could harbour a grudge for years before venting his revenge and frankly that's not a situation I would want to be the catalyst to.

What about family visits in the future. I would not want to be looking over my shoulder all the time. Too many arguments in Thailand result in the person who won being found face down in a klong.

She has legal sole custody; his permission is not required.

It's not me saying that; it's the Thai government!

And we all know how the Thai's stick to the letter of the law.

I'd think this through Kenneth. You'll have to accept the fact that your wife will want to see the family back home from time to time.

If I have one piece of advice I'd give to anyone it is never make a Thai angry or lose face.

The repercussions can be tragic.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Jay Sata

[7by7]

She has legal sole custody; his permission is not required.

It's not me saying that; it's the Thai government!

And we all know how the Thai's stick to the letter of the law.

Have you ever applied for a step child's passport Thailand?

I have; as have several other posters in this topic.

We all experienced exactly the same thing; the mother had legal sole custody so the father's permission was not required.

Which is hardly surprising as that is exactly what the MFA say!

As for the rest of your post; pathetic scaremongering.

[outlaw11wa]

I encountered a similar problem with my first wife (yes Isaan Lady). Ex husband refused to give his signature for a daughter he refused to see or support. He graciousely advised this problem could be overcome for a gratitude of 200k. My wife was the youngest in a family of 5 boys and an elder sister. One of the brothers Danai had was out of work and short on change. With the backing of the other brothers he negotiated a new deal. He escorted the ex husband to BKK on the Bus -both had a few days on the turps and other interesting past times - signed the paper - and got back to Korat in one piece, no broken bones or anything? Cost me a little over 20k........lol

[steady]

I think that the passport issue is the easiest part of the OPs problems. I wonder what the postings will be like when everyone is discussing how to prove 'sole responsibility' to the embassy.

[Jay Sata]

I encountered a similar problem with my first wife (yes Isaan Lady). Ex husband refused to give his signature for a daughter he refused to see or support. He graciousely advised this problem could be overcome for a gratitude of 200k. My wife was the youngest in a family of 5 boys and an elder sister. One of the brothers Danai had was out of work and short on change. With the backing of the other brothers he negotiated a new deal. He escorted the ex husband to BKK on the Bus -both had a few days on the turps and other interesting past times - signed the paper - and got back to Korat in one piece, no broken bones or anything? Cost me a little over 20k........lol

Money well spent and everybody happy.

Frankly I'm not prepared to have hassle for £500. It's like stupid tourists who lose their life arguing with a Thai taxi driver over a few baht.

Good post outlaw.

[bobrussell]

I think that the passport issue is the easiest part of the OPs problems. I wonder what the postings will be like when everyone is discussing how to prove 'sole responsibility' to the embassy.

A bit of a Catch 22 situation.

I think the only real way round this is to go down 7by7's route and apply without the biological fathers permission. If he 'grants' permission then the UK authorities are very likely to consider he is still exercising parental responsibility and refuse a settlement visa!

Edited September 3, 2013 by bobrussell

[steady]

I think that the passport issue is the easiest part of the OPs problems. I wonder what the postings will be like when everyone is discussing how to prove 'sole responsibility' to the embassy.

A bit of a Catch 22 situation.

I think the only real way round this is to go down 7by7's route and apply without the biological fathers permission. If he 'grants' permission then the UK authorities are very likely to consider he is still exercising parental responsibility and refuse a settlement visa!

Yes, but that still doesn't address the issue that the mother has been living in the UK and someone else has been taking care of the child. However I agree that sorting one problem at a time is the way forward but the timing may be unfortunate on a couple of counts. Firstly the government is making noises about getting immigration from 100's of thousands down to 10's of thousands and the number of years that mum hasn't been present in Thailand. I know that proving sole responsibility can be proved by absent parents but there are many cases seen on the forums where people haven't been successful for one reason or another.

[7by7]

Whilst I agree that it is easier for the visa application and better for the child if she had come to the Uk at the same time as her mother; this is not necessarily a bar to her now being granted settlement to join her mother.

There are many reasons why it is not possible for parent and child to have applied together; probably the most common being lack of suitable accommodation in the UK at the time. The ECOs are aware of this: but the reasons should be explained in the application.

The big plus point is that the child has been in the care of her maternal grandparents during the separation.

If The OP and his wife can show that the mother has been in regular contact with both her parents and the child, has been financially supporting the child and has been making the major decisions over the child's upbringing then they should have an excellent chance of success.

However, as I said earlier, Kenneth; should you want advice on preparing her visa application and the evidence you need then I suggest you start a new topic.

[DrDave]

Without formal marriage at the Amphur your wife has custody of the child. My wife was in the same situation. We live in northern Thailand. We obtained a passport for her child without the father giving consent. We went to the Amphur office with two witnesses from the village who signed statements that the daughter was living with her mother at the stated address. The Amphur then issued a document which we took to to the passport office. They then issued her a Thai passport.

Why has everyone overlooked this post?

Keep your cash OP, find two witnesses from your wife's area and get them to the district office and sign off on it!

Job done...

While this may work for the purpose of getting a passport, it may not be sufficient for getting a visa.

We were in the same situation a few years back. Getting a Thai passport for my step-daughter was simple. Upon applying for her U.S. visa, we obtained the "sole support" statement at the Amphur mentioned above (one of the witnesses was the phu yai baan) and included it with the application. After receiving confirmation from the U.S. Consulate that we had all required paperwork, and the visa interview was scheduled, we were informed during the interview that the visa would not be issued without the father's permission and signature, regardless of the fact that we had the "sole support" documentation. Fortunately, my wife was able to convince the father that his daughter would have a much better life and future if she could finish her education the United States. That and about 3K baht seemed to do the trick.

[7by7]

Whilst the above may be the case for the US; it is not so for the UK.

For the UK, as the mother has sole legal custody, no permission is required from the father.

Indeed, as has been said, obtaining it may be counterproductive as it could be taken as evidence that the father still plays a role in the child's life and so the mother does not have sole responsibility!

For a UK child settlement visa, sole custody is important, but not as important as sole responsibility.

[tingtongteesood]

Just go, what are the odds he will forget about it ? If he does make a fuss then let him take it to court, he has been wholly unreasonable.

[theblether]

7x7 is again refusing to address the fact that the OP's wife has already sought permission, and was refused.

7x7, what will happen if a UK visa officer discovers that?

[Darren McKenzie]

Without formal marriage at the Amphur your wife has custody of the child. My wife was in the same situation. We live in northern Thailand. We obtained a passport for her child without the father giving consent. We went to the Amphur office with two witnesses from the village who signed statements that the daughter was living with her mother at the stated address. The Amphur then issued a document which we took to to the passport office. They then issued her a Thai passport.

Why has everyone overlooked this post?

Keep your cash OP, find two witnesses from your wife's area and get them to the district office and sign off on it!

Job done...

Just goes to show when most TV punters get the choice between the right and easy way, or the dumb, ineffective and expensive way, they'll take the latter every time. Thai Visa would be a ghost town without these blokes.

Well said. Don't know about this forum, but your comments apply to so many farangs throughout the country.

[Jay Sata]

7x7 is again refusing to address the fact that the OP's wife has already sought permission, and was refused.

7x7, what will happen if a UK visa officer discovers that?

On this forum 7by7 is always right so let's not go down that road.

I can only speak from experience of spending a sizeable chunk of my life in Thailand over the last 13 years.

Thai law,the police and common-sense play no part in the reality of day to day life. A friend of mine was breathalysed and failed at Khon Kaen police station a few months ago. Once the paperwork was cleared he asked about getting his car back out of the police station car park.

'You drive home' was the reply.

'What if I am stopped again?'

'No problem..we give you this paper..you OK for 24 hours'!

He turned up at the local court the next day expecting to appear before a local judge who failed to appear. Car drivers were told to pay 5k baht

and motorbikes 3k baht. That's how Thai law works. The judge did now waste a morning going through routine cases.

You can cut and from websites as much as you like but Thai law is a law to itself.

We'll have to see how this thread pans out but my advice to all is try and negotiate your way out of a Thai problem.

Western logic and rules don't work as those of you who have spent some time living in the Kingdom know.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Jay Sata

[samran]

7x7 is again refusing to address the fact that the OP's wife has already sought permission, and was refused.

7x7, what will happen if a UK visa officer discovers that?

My take on this is that she can ask for permission till the cows come home, but given the father has no legal right to give it in the first place it really is a moot point whether he gives it or not.

Maybe for me, but that seems to be the central point.

Edited September 4, 2013 by samran

[samran]

7x7 is again refusing to address the fact that the OP's wife has already sought permission, and was refused.

7x7, what will happen if a UK visa officer discovers that?

On this forum 7by7 is always right so let's not go down that road.

I can only speak from experience of spending a sizeable chunk of my life in Thailand over the last 13 years.

Thai law,the police and common-sense play no part in the reality of day to day life. A friend of mine was breathalysed and failed at Khon Kaen police station a few months ago. Once the paperwork was cleared he asked about getting his car back out of the police station car park.

'You drive home' was the reply.

'What if I am stopped again?'

'No problem..we give you this paper..you OK for 24 hours'!

He turned up at the local court the next day expecting to appear before a local judge who failed to appear. Car drivers were told to pay 5k baht

and motorbikes 3k baht. That's how Thai law works. The judge did now waste a morning going through routine cases.

You can cut and from websites as much as you like but Thai law is a law to itself.

We'll have to see how this thread pans out but my advice to all is try and negotiate your way out of a Thai problem.

Western logic and rules don't work as those of you who have spent some time living in the Kingdom know.

I fail to see how that is anything but the law working as it should. The law is an ass everywhere, and it is no different here.

The law is the law. People in Thailand do their best to try and get around it, either by bribes, or trying to have different rules, not applicable to them, apply. Some succed.

What tends to happen though is that due to this state of play, people always assume the easy way, actually, the only way to achieve things here is via money and influence, or bending the rules. My experience is that bending the rules inevitably catches up to you, and that money and influence, while useful, is often wasted where it need not be. But hey, who am I to say? I've only worked for the government here and now deal with them on a regular basis for my clients.

Edited September 4, 2013 by samran

[bangkokfanatic]

Without formal marriage at the Amphur your wife has custody of the child. My wife was in the same situation. We live in northern Thailand. We obtained a passport for her child without the father giving consent. We went to the Amphur office with two witnesses from the village who signed statements that the daughter was living with her mother at the stated address. The Amphur then issued a document which we took to to the passport office. They then issued her a Thai passport.

My GF did exactly the same - her Ex had played no part in my "step-son's" life since he was 3 months old. Now at almost 4, I'm the only Papa he knows.

The pooyaibaan & one other signed a paper, as did the maternal grandmother. Cost us 500THB to get each of the two witnesses down to the Amphur Office for an hour. The "boss lady" at the Amphur Office read all the docs and took such a dislike to the father's conduct she signed the documents and produced a doc which has the official "big red Thai Government" bird up the top, all without the necessity of any "tea money".

Then to Bangkok for the passport (after getting the full authorised translation done), then to the Aussie Embassy for the Visa.

Best of Luck to the OP.

[7by7]

7x7 is again refusing to address the fact that the OP's wife has already sought permission, and was refused.

7x7, what will happen if a UK visa officer discovers that?

My take on this is that she can ask for permission till the cows come home, but given the father has no legal right to give it in the first place it really is a moot point whether he gives it or not.

Maybe for me, but that seems to be the central point.

Spot on, Samran.

But to answer his question; the mother can simply tell the truth; which of course all visa applicants and sponsors should do anyway.

Which, from what the OP has said, is that they had not had any contact with the father until they were erroneously informed that his permission was required to obtain a passport for her daughter.

Having traced him, he then refused to sign anything in the hope of extracting money from the mother.

She since discovered that as she was never married to the father, his permission was not required.

[KennethReed]

Hi All, thanks for all the replies, was not aware that this would generate such interest !, one or 2 points i wouldlike to make

when i said that the childs wamted nothing to do with the man, I meant financially, he has never been denied any kind of access to the child, he hasn't wanted any !

In terms of sole responsibility, am well aware of the issues around that, but as i said at the very start, not really the point of the topic, I have done a lot of reseacrch on it including some excellent popsters on this forum, thanks 7by7 for all the info you provide, we have gathered as much sole responsibilty evidence as we possess, but I know that this is also a difficult area,

I maybe should have said this earlier, and a few people may give me pelters, however it has stimullated much debate, which is good, however this isn't directly a Thai issue, i'ts another country, (but this is probably the best forum i have found for getting information) and in that country he has slightly different rights, which means it is difficult to get the application approved without his permission, (please believe me on that) which is really the point of the post, going down the road off paying the bugger off aint really an option, if he 'fell under a bus' tommorow, I would not shed any tears

The only time he has shown any interest is now, cos he has some 'power' over the situation

We are a bit dubious of going down the road of trying to get the sole access for the mothers family in her own country, as this may cause issues in court, which he may well want, and we might end up with the worst off all results

in the end we are going down the compassionate route, at the grandparents are not as young or as healthy as they were, and we have doctors evidences to support this, I'm not neccessarily a pessimist, but I am quite pragmatic, and I realise its unlikely that we will get a favourable result, however in my personal circumstances, its best that we try, so have to give it my best shot

thank you for all your replies, much appreciated, they all have value in one form or another

[theblether]

People put a lot of effort into this particular sub forum, you're out of order not telling us it was not Thai related.

[itchybum]

I'm confused.