Better Sex Please: We're Thai

[Dustoff]

this thread is getting weird. don't you guys think? or maybe its because its 4am now. well, 3:58am ...thats not so bad.

I agree.

GET A ROOM !

Okay, I am sure that I can say that better but this very enjoyable and important thread seems to have turned away from something appropriate to Thailand to chopping vegetables, daddy/daugheter issues, and pseudo-theological discussions between a very few people about interpersonal (not Thai) relationships and sex.

Perhaps another forum or personal emails would be more appropriate for you folks than a forum that is supposed to be about Thailand? I would like to get back to appropriate posts about living and loving in Thailand before the administrators appropriately shut this thread down.

[jamman]

You see, the thing is, I need a clean bathtub. I need a clean bathroom. It's fine, if my man doesn't need one, but he also benefits when I clean it. I cannot live with a dirty bathroom or house, and if we are both living in it, we both need to clean it. Or, we can both share the expenses of a housecleaner. If I decide I want to get a cat, I can care for the cat, clean the cat, feed the cat, but in reality, we are both living with the cat. It affects both of us, even if I'm the one feeding the cat. I can't go out and get a cat without considering my partner's shared value/burden. This creates resentment, which most certainly affects passion.

This brings me back to sex. I may not be thinking in exactly equal terms or halfs for this and halfs for that, but I'm sure that with people who know the difference, if one person is doing all the serving and acts of devotion, more than half the time, some of us are going to notice. And maybe some won't. It all comes down to finding the right balance of values. Shared values equal hot sex, and a clean, resentment-free bathtub.

But if he is happy with a slightly grungy tub, he doesn't benefit. To him, the water closet is just a place to shower shit and shave, it is not a boudoir that needs to be a pleasant place to hang out. He doesn't see grime until way after you see it - at least if comparing frat vs sorrority dorms is any indication.

You know what? I really need my Ford Thunderbird to be hand polished and buff. So my mate should wax it half the time (and of course I get to decide when it is "too" dirty). We both use it, so we both benefit.

And while we are being fair, let's split time for car maintenance; odd plumbing fixes; purchasing and maintaining tools and a work area; intalling telephone, cable, and electrical connections; installing shelvings; renovations; insulations; fence repairs; air conditioning installation; lawn maintenance including mowing, sprinkler system purchase and installation, fertilising, and weeding.

Guys and girls get fussy about different things. Trying to make a mate be fair by doing half the fussy work about your interest is hardly fair, and will make him resentful, just so you don't have to feel resentful. I say this from personal experience. You know why I don't do vegetables? Because I was married to a woman who tried to enforce fairness in chopping, and I grew to resent it so hugely I never wanted to chop a vegetable again.

And how this all relates to this thread, for the on-topic-police, is that some people are more attracted to Asian women because they find them more feminine, partly because western women want to enforce gender neutral roles. Men like women to accentuate their femininity with feminine clothes and demeanor, and we like them to appreciate our masculinity and our masuculine ways. Both like to feel taken care of, not from duty but from devotion. And enforced splitting of only the tasks the female considers in her realm (she'll never split the ones I mention above) kills devotion and enforces duty, which kills passion, until the man figures out his balls are not his own, and it is time to move to Thailand.

Men and women don't share all values. If you find a man who does, he will probably be gay. Better to put extra effort into yours, and his into his, and altogether the whole household will get all the attention it needs.

Oh ya, and I'm G from that other site - I do remember you. I got confused about a blog - that wasn't yours.

Edited April 26, 2006 by jamman

[kat]

this thread is getting weird. don't you guys think? or maybe its because its 4am now. well, 3:58am ...thats not so bad.

I agree.

GET A ROOM !

Okay, I am sure that I can say that better but this very enjoyable and important thread seems to have turned away from something appropriate to Thailand to chopping vegetables, daddy/daugheter issues, and pseudo-theological discussions between a very few people about interpersonal (not Thai) relationships and sex.

Perhaps another forum or personal emails would be more appropriate for you folks than a forum that is supposed to be about Thailand? I would like to get back to appropriate posts about living and loving in Thailand before the administrators appropriately shut this thread down.

Ok, so then where's your post? do you have anything at all to add to the discussion here rather than reprimanding those who are having one?

*edit: nevermind

Edited April 26, 2006 by kat

[kat]

You know what? I really need my Ford Thunderbird to be hand polished and buff. So my mate should wax it half the time (and of course I get to decide when it is "too" dirty). We both use it, so we both benefit.

And while we are being fair, let's split time for car maintenance; odd plumbing fixes; purchasing and maintaining tools and a work area; intalling telephone, cable, and electrical connections; installing shelvings; renovations; insulations; fence repairs; air conditioning installation; lawn maintenance including mowing, sprinkler system purchase and installation, fertilising, and weeding.

Guys and girls get fussy about different things. Trying to make a mate be fair by doing half the fussy work about your interest is hardly fair, and will make him resentful, just so you don't have to feel resentful. I say this from personal experience. You know why I don't do vegetables? Because I was married to a woman who tried to enforce fairness in chopping, and I grew to resent it so hugely I never wanted to chop a vegetable again.

And how this all relates to this thread, for the on-topic-police, is that some people are more attracted to Asian women because they find them more feminine, partly because western women want to enforce gender neutral roles. Men like women to accentuate their femininity with feminine clothes and demeanor, and we like them to appreciate our masculinity and our masuculine ways. Both like to feel taken care of, not from duty but from devotion. And enforced splitting of only the tasks the female considers in her realm (she'll never split the ones I mention above) kills devotion and enforces duty, which kills passion, until the man figures out his balls are not his own, and it is time to move to Thailand.

Men and women don't share all values. If you find a man who does, he will probably be gay. Better to put extra effort into yours, and his into his, and altogether the whole household will get all the attention it needs.

Oh ya, and I'm G from that other site - I do remember you. I got confused about a blog - that wasn't yours.

You assume too much, even when you are smart enough to know better. I actually would help you clean your car if it was important to you, and if we shared the car and were equally strapped for cash, I would chip in cash. I would even climb into the back seat after it was all shiny, squeaky, clean, and help you remember why you bought such an impractical and hot vanity car in the first, place, but you just mentioned how I'm not feminine and you prefer your Asian chicks to appreciate your masculine ways. Then what more am I to say? Go get your Asian chick. End of story.

[jamman]

You know what? I really need my Ford Thunderbird to be hand polished and buff. So my mate should wax it half the time (and of course I get to decide when it is "too" dirty). We both use it, so we both benefit.

And while we are being fair, let's split time for car maintenance; odd plumbing fixes; purchasing and maintaining tools and a work area; intalling telephone, cable, and electrical connections; installing shelvings; renovations; insulations; fence repairs; air conditioning installation; lawn maintenance including mowing, sprinkler system purchase and installation, fertilising, and weeding.

Guys and girls get fussy about different things. Trying to make a mate be fair by doing half the fussy work about your interest is hardly fair, and will make him resentful, just so you don't have to feel resentful. I say this from personal experience. You know why I don't do vegetables? Because I was married to a woman who tried to enforce fairness in chopping, and I grew to resent it so hugely I never wanted to chop a vegetable again.

And how this all relates to this thread, for the on-topic-police, is that some people are more attracted to Asian women because they find them more feminine, partly because western women want to enforce gender neutral roles. Men like women to accentuate their femininity with feminine clothes and demeanor, and we like them to appreciate our masculinity and our masuculine ways. Both like to feel taken care of, not from duty but from devotion. And enforced splitting of only the tasks the female considers in her realm (she'll never split the ones I mention above) kills devotion and enforces duty, which kills passion, until the man figures out his balls are not his own, and it is time to move to Thailand.

Men and women don't share all values. If you find a man who does, he will probably be gay. Better to put extra effort into yours, and his into his, and altogether the whole household will get all the attention it needs.

Oh ya, and I'm G from that other site - I do remember you. I got confused about a blog - that wasn't yours.

You assume too much, even when you are smart enough to know better. I actually would help you clean your car if it was important to you, and if we shared the car and were equally strapped for cash, I would chip in cash. I would even climb into the back seat after it was all shiny, squeaky, clean, and help you remember why you bought such an impractical and hot vanity car in the first, place, but you just mentioned how I'm not feminine and you prefer your Asian chicks to appreciate your masculine ways. Then what more am I to say? Go get your Asian chick. End of story.

I don't prefer Asian chicks. But I do have a bee in my bonnet about enforced gender neutrality. And vegetables. I would prefer a western minded woman who would allow me to not chop vegetables.

[kat]

I already told you about naked vegatables! Naked vegetables are the way to go! I don't mind naked vegetables. Who needs vegetables anyway? I take a multivitamin for that reason anyway.

[jamman]

I already told you about naked vegatables! Naked vegetables are the way to go! I don't mind naked vegetables. Who needs vegetables anyway? I take a multivitamin for that reason anyway.

Naked vegetables nave to be washed and peeled and cut. And besides, my point is that the cat drags home rats of devotion. He's a cat, that's the offering you get from cats. I make Ramens of devotion. Its good ramen.

[kat]

I guess the jist of all of this is that, masculine and feminine in the West is both fixed and mutable. I think gender roles in Asia and other places is much less mutable, and if that's what turns you on then so be it. I need the fixed mutability of a western relationship, with all our crazy contradictions, eccentricities, and quirky singularities. I need something that is only that thing with that person.

[kat]

Yes, and I always praised my cat for the dead birds that she dropped at my feet, because I know that she worked, and preyed, and hunted that poor dead bird, and then came straight to me. But at the end of the night, I fill her bowl with meow mix, and then she thanks me.

*edit; so what I'm saying is that her instinct is to still go out and kill the bird, and my instinct is to understand her offering, but our modern or present situation is also more than our instincts. And it is not bad.

Edited April 26, 2006 by kat

[jamman]

I guess the jist of all of this is that, masculine and feminine in the West is both fixed and mutable. I think gender roles in Asia and other places is much less mutable, and if that's what turns you on then so be it. I need the fixed mutability of a western relationship, with all our crazy contradictions, eccentricities, and quirky singularities. I need something that is only that thing with that person.

Fair enough. I guess both of us have very strong reactions against expectations placed on us. I react against expectations of work I don't really want to do also. But aside from that one bad marriage, it was never a big deal. What I did learn from Asian cultures though is that gender roles is not merely oppression, and service is not the same as servile servitude. The role of serving someone is a great role.

In my Buddhist community we had some service rituals. One was just serving food during a ritual meal. It felt so good to scoop out food to others, I loved that job. Some people like to go scoop out food to the hungry in soop kitchens. Some Hindu ritual involve pouring butter over a big fat phallus, as an offering. My Buddhist friend was trained in the art of being a servant to his guru. As servant he was also protege. He was later offered a job to be the butler for Bill Cosby. He turned it down as he chose to continue with his graphic design career, but my point is that the art of service is largely about attitude. With the right attitude, you are serving your better self as well as the better self of the one you serve. It is generous, and both accept and receive. I now have a lot of respect for caretaking and the traditional role of housekeeper can be very respectable. I find it a pity that in the west people are so vigilant about oppression that this side of service is overlooked, and all that is usually seen is one person being under the control of another.

Edited April 26, 2006 by jamman

[kat]

I already told you about naked vegatables! Naked vegetables are the way to go! I don't mind naked vegetables. Who needs vegetables anyway? I take a multivitamin for that reason anyway.

Naked vegetables nave to be washed and peeled and cut. And besides, my point is that the cat drags home rats of devotion. He's a cat, that's the offering you get from cats. I make Ramens of devotion. Its good ramen.

And ramen is good! I love ramen. Good ramen deserves good vegetables. I have no problem chopping vegetables, especially if someone is busy cooking (or boiling). I've never identified chopping vegetables as gender specific anyway. I think the bathtub and kitchen are the last strongholds of gender enforced resentments.

*edit: quote: "Fair enough. I guess both of us have very strong reactions against expectations placed on us. I react against expectations of work I don't really want to do also. But aside from that one bad marriage, it was never a big deal. What I did learn from Asian cultures though is that gender roles is not merely oppression, and service is not the same as servile servitude. The role of serving someone is a great role." end quote

Yes, I think you are absolutely correct about both of our reactions to expectations; spot on, in my case. As soon as someone removes the expectation, I become a completely different person. And yes, I do understand what you are saying about service. I think the sad thing that happens in the West, is that neither men or women have this perspective. If you are going to fault women or feminists for being too strident about it, you must certainly fault men for being too callous and unappreciative.

You see, in many ways, the last 30 years for women have been a terrible and bitter reaction.

Edited April 26, 2006 by kat

[jamman]

And yes, I do understand what you are saying about service. I think the sad thing that happens in the West, is that neither men or women have this perspective. If you are going to fault women or feminists for being too strident about it, you must certainly fault men for being too callous and unappreciative.

You see, in many ways, the last 30 years for women have been a terrible and bitter reaction.

It took me until the third reading until I noticed what you really said about "you must certainly fault men for being too callous and unappreciative." Well that's good. Now I may be slightly more forgiving the next time someone can't hear what I'm saying.

Ya, in order for the alchemical reaction to take place between the giver and receiver, the giver must offer to the us, as well as to the other, and the receiver must accept to the us, as well as feel individual gratitude to the generosity of the other. Silently she offers eggs, he eats them, nourished, and she is happy for him, and he is happy for her.

When that happens, no one is is bigger or smaller, and naturally gratitude happens from both, and generosity from both, and then people want to have sex.

Edited April 26, 2006 by jamman

[rainman]

I already told you about naked vegatables! Naked vegetables are the way to go! I don't mind naked vegetables. Who needs vegetables anyway? I take a multivitamin for that reason anyway.

i like to dress my vegetables in pink skirts and teach them to call me daddy. is that bad?

[jamman]

I already told you about naked vegatables! Naked vegetables are the way to go! I don't mind naked vegetables. Who needs vegetables anyway? I take a multivitamin for that reason anyway.

i like to dress my vegetables in pink skirts and teach them to call me daddy. is that bad?

Well, at least you are honest about it. Good rule of thumb - anyone getting hurt? Anyone getting happy? If you are happy, and no one hurt, don't ask, just do it.

[thaibebop]

Kat.....is this your idea of flirting?

[Dustoff]

this thread is getting weird. don't you guys think? or maybe its because its 4am now. well, 3:58am ...thats not so bad.

I agree.

GET A ROOM !

Okay, I am sure that I can say that better but this very enjoyable and important thread seems to have turned away from something appropriate to Thailand to chopping vegetables, daddy/daugheter issues, and pseudo-theological discussions between a very few people about interpersonal (not Thai) relationships and sex.

Perhaps another forum or personal emails would be more appropriate for you folks than a forum that is supposed to be about Thailand? I would like to get back to appropriate posts about living and loving in Thailand before the administrators appropriately shut this thread down.

Ok, so then where's your post? do you have anything at all to add to the discussion here rather than reprimanding those who are having one?

*edit: nevermind

Thank you for the edit, Kat. I too speak hastily at times and I was going to ask that you simply go back thru the pages to find my previous posts, which I hope were in keeping with a Thailand theme, since I am busy trying to find out how to unsubscribe from this particular thread. No offense but,

Yes, and I always praised my cat for the dead birds that she dropped at my feet,

because I know that she worked, and preyed, and hunted that poor dead bird, and

then came straight to me. But at the end of the night, I fill her bowl with

meow mix, and then she thanks me.

AARRGGHH !! (running from the room)

Don't get me wrong, I love animals of all kinds, chop vegies, wash my Mustang (pun intended) and have my own expansive theories about interpersonal relationships but am, at least on these forums, far more interested in how the people/women of Thailand relate to us farangs and how we may better realate to them since we ARE in THEIR country.

I only suggested that these overwhelming numbers of personal messages and theoretical exchanges could be carried on in a more appropriate forum. And indeed if there is one that you inhabit, I would be interested in putting in my two million dollars worth.

I just don't think this is the place for it...

[soic]

this thread is getting weird. don't you guys think? or maybe its because its 4am now. well, 3:58am ...thats not so bad.

I agree.

GET A ROOM !

Okay, I am sure that I can say that better but this very enjoyable and important thread seems to have turned away from something appropriate to Thailand to chopping vegetables, daddy/daugheter issues, and pseudo-theological discussions between a very few people about interpersonal (not Thai) relationships and sex.

Perhaps another forum or personal emails would be more appropriate for you folks than a forum that is supposed to be about Thailand? I would like to get back to appropriate posts about living and loving in Thailand before the administrators appropriately shut this thread down.

Ok, so then where's your post? do you have anything at all to add to the discussion here rather than reprimanding those who are having one?

*edit: nevermind

Thank you for the edit, Kat. I too speak hastily at times and I was going to ask that you simply go back thru the pages to find my previous posts, which I hope were in keeping with a Thailand theme, since I am busy trying to find out how to unsubscribe from this particular thread. No offense but,

Yes, and I always praised my cat for the dead birds that she dropped at my feet,

because I know that she worked, and preyed, and hunted that poor dead bird, and

then came straight to me. But at the end of the night, I fill her bowl with

meow mix, and then she thanks me.

AARRGGHH !! (running from the room)

Don't get me wrong, I love animals of all kinds, chop vegies, wash my Mustang (pun intended) and have my own expansive theories about interpersonal relationships but am, at least on these forums, far more interested in how the people/women of Thailand relate to us farangs and how we may better realate to them since we ARE in THEIR country.

I only suggested that these overwhelming numbers of personal messages and theoretical exchanges could be carried on in a more appropriate forum. And indeed if there is one that you inhabit, I would be interested in putting in my two million dollars worth.

I just don't think this is the place for it...

I believe that this subject is acceptable for this forum. That's the neat thing about these topics you can choose to participate or ignore it.

I'm still having a problem with the assigned roles that male and females are supposed to take... I don't believe that you would have to be Gay to work together in the house and outside. When it comes to housework, I share the duties, I live there too... Granted, I have to argue with my Thai wife when it comes to dishes, she says Man don't do, I say, I do, and I do. I help cook and clean... I enjoy being a part of the household. She also helps me outside. We work in the garden together, we plant flowers and cut the grass. She helps me wash the car... she does the windows and the inside, I wash and wax the outside with our sons.

I believe that it's totally sexist to assign roles by gender. When I was growing up, I have two younger sisters; my mother taught me to cook, clean, wash clothes and wash dishes. I grumbled once about the fact that I was a boy and we have two girls here that can do the housework. Mom was very patient with her answer... She told me that she wanted me to learn those things to help me. She said that when I got older and left home, she wanted me to find a woman to love and share my life with. She wanted me to find love and not just find a woman that can take care of me. I appreciated that, I'm glad to this day that she did. Being a part of a family is more than the hierachy of the remote control for the T.V. To me, it is all of us doing everything together. I enjoy being a part of everything we do. It's amazing some of the conversations we have while doing menial chores together; with the wife, and our children. We all learn a lot.

[verzenden]

Wow I'm finally at the bottom and can have my turn to respond to this wonderful tread. Jamman i think I'm the only one who truelly understands you, right from the start. I'm amazed by those who not understand you and disagree with you. Like you said, you do what you want to do, and Sarah did what she wanted to do! And that worked out for both of you and that is BEAUTIFUL. And for Soic who says he shares his DUTIES, well if that's what you like to do that's alright. But that implies he does not enjoy them but he says he does??? If both partners voluntary agree with their 'duties' why do you start picking on Jamman as if he was oppressing his xGF. He stated it very clearly in his first post and repeated it over and over again in his replies. "He oppered her to study or do whatever she liked but this is what she chose for". Jamman do you never get tired defending yourself? For me it's obvious you are very intelligent and you draw conclusions quikly, think they're just not following you. Reading is easy compared to actually understand what your reading. I'm still confused nobody really agrees with what your saying.

For me, I have a Thai gf. She really hates cleaning the bathroom. I think she doesn't even see it's dirty. When I'm away for a few months you should see the place when i return. I don't bother to clean the bathroom so that's what i do, i do it while i take a shower at the same time She does most of the cleaning in the kitchen, which seems to come naturally, i never told her to do the dishes! I really really hate doing dishes like you hate cutting veggies, and i love she does it for me. But i don't have any expectations she will do it all the time. Because she doesn't. Sometimes she is out for work already and before i can cook myself a breakfast i first need to do the dishes. Mostly i skip the breakfast if this is the case i admit, but still sometimes i do some dishes.

I have a brother living in the west. I really feel sorry for him a lot of times but he seems to be happy with his wife and 2 children. They both work, he fulltime, she 3 days a week. When she's free all day and my brother comes home from a long and exhausting day in the office there's no meal waiting for him. She expects him to do the cooking! They have 2 children together but she really does not like to raise them, she always says "I'm so happy tomorrow i have to work again!" She always know how to amaze me! When it's her free day she still dares to drop the kiddies at my moms house, why?, sometimes she goes back home to watch tele and sleep on the sofa! And my mom taking care the kids. She is everything I'm not looking for in a woman. Still don't know why my brother considers himself happily married, just hope he will wake up 1 day.

For Kat, i feel you have a really hard time understanding we men. Well, we men with asian gf's /wifes. Seems to me your pretty pissed of, us having a good time here. In the west we don't get much respect from other males but i think they're just ignorend. For most of us it has been a pretty big step moving here, leaving everything behind. And most of us don't regret their decision a single second. I think a lot of men in the west deep in their hearts would be jalous if they knew the difference between asian women and western women. Mostly they are ignorend and think of asian women as slaves! Something i really experience in a different way, asian women rock! And yes some do a lot but get a lot in return, devotion is so BEAUTIFULL.

I know i generalise a lot in my writing. This is not my native language and i have difficulties expressing myself the way i really want. I just hope you see a red line in my story and not start picking on me for some big generalisations, it's only my opinion and not more than that!

amen

[verzenden]

my connection failed and somehow i double posted, hope with this edit, most of it is resolved

Edited April 27, 2006 by verzenden

[soic]

verzenden, I believe the angst was do to the way his thoughts were presented. No-one has a problem when a couple chooses the roles they want to play in a relationship. It was the way it appeared his thoughts ran as in the roles were predicated by the genders. The whole daddy/daughter thing didn't help either. Every relationship is different from another. That being said, when people live their lives doing things that only fit their specific gender role; they're missing a lot.

[kat]

I already told you about naked vegatables! Naked vegetables are the way to go! I don't mind naked vegetables. Who needs vegetables anyway? I take a multivitamin for that reason anyway.

i like to dress my vegetables in pink skirts and teach them to call me daddy. is that bad?

I believe that this subject is acceptable for this forum. That's the neat thing about these topics you can choose to participate or ignore it.

I'm still having a problem with the assigned roles that male and females are supposed to take... I don't believe that you would have to be Gay to work together in the house and outside. When it comes to housework, I share the duties, I live there too... Granted, I have to argue with my Thai wife when it comes to dishes, she says Man don't do, I say, I do, and I do. I help cook and clean... I enjoy being a part of the household. She also helps me outside. We work in the garden together, we plant flowers and cut the grass. She helps me wash the car... she does the windows and the inside, I wash and wax the outside with our sons.

I believe that it's totally sexist to assign roles by gender. When I was growing up, I have two younger sisters; my mother taught me to cook, clean, wash clothes and wash dishes. I grumbled once about the fact that I was a boy and we have two girls here that can do the housework. Mom was very patient with her answer... She told me that she wanted me to learn those things to help me. She said that when I got older and left home, she wanted me to find a woman to love and share my life with. She wanted me to find love and not just find a woman that can take care of me. I appreciated that, I'm glad to this day that she did. Being a part of a family is more than the hierachy of the remote control for the T.V. To me, it is all of us doing everything together. I enjoy being a part of everything we do. It's amazing some of the conversations we have while doing menial chores together; with the wife, and our children. We all learn a lot.

Thanks for that post SOIC.

For Kat, i feel you have a really hard time understanding we men. Well, we men with asian gf's /wifes. Seems to me your pretty pissed of, us having a good time here. In the west we don't get much respect from other males but i think they're just ignorend. For most of us it has been a pretty big step moving here, leaving everything behind. And most of us don't regret their decision a single second. I think a lot of men in the west deep in their hearts would be jalous if they knew the difference between asian women and western women. Mostly they are ignorend and think of asian women as slaves! Something i really experience in a different way, asian women rock! And yes some do a lot but get a lot in return, devotion is so BEAUTIFULL.

Really? Then why is that Jamman and I are on good terms, but with you there is no interest in ever chatting again

Edited April 27, 2006 by kat

[Dustoff]

Really? Then why is that Jamman and I are on good terms, but with you there is no interest in ever chatting again

Once again I am appreciative that you saw fit to edit your previous post.

Your removal of "You're a cliche" (superficial?) cleaned up your sentiments but only a little and it strikes me that someone as intelligent and educated as you obviously are is not unkind without reason.

What's up? Is there something about farang men/Thai women relationships that grates on your nerves?

I ask this only because some of the those same relationships cause me to grind my teeth as well, while not necessarily more than relationships I have seen in my own country and many others, and I would be interested in your input.

My Thai wife is thirty years my junior.

I am forty-three.

She calls me Daddy.

And rightfully so.

I would have her say hello but I have her chained to the chopping board..

KIDDING !

[mark45y]

Last night I helped a Thai man compose an email to his girlfriend who is a 20 year old Farang. The Thai man is 26. He is a nice guy and movie star material. Speaks pretty good English and is a hale fellow. She is studying Muy Thai boxing and is not a feint flower. I felt good about helping him and I felt I was helping her.

When I got home my significant other asked me if I knew it was a short time relationship. I asked her what she meant. She said the Farang pays him short time. I didn’t believe it so she called up the Thai guy and he related the amount paid.

At first this stuck me as odd. Then I realized that Farang women were pretty much the same as Farang men.

This is not a viewpoint that will get much positive mileage on Thai Visa. I am sure it will receive a lot of negative comments.

But how on earth can a normal Farang women deal with the reality of Thailand?

Of course they would have to be negatively disposed to Farang men with Thai women.

They are so deep and Thai women are so trite.

Darn it is true.

They are so politically correct and Thai women are not.

It’s true.

In Thailand if you get caught in an indiscretion it costs you a shopping spree or a vacation. In Farang land it costs you all the money you have in the bank and your house and the two cars. It’s true. Gosh that has to upset the Farang women.

Look at the divorce laws. Darn if I was a Farang woman I would be upset. They get nothing.

You only know the half of it if you don’t speak Thai.

Domestic disturbances. You think the cops will help?

Ya, right this is Thailand.

I can’t think of one reason why Western women come here. Except that Thai men are slim and smell better than Western men and better physiques and less hair which appeals to the new (I like gay guys thing). Unless there are work reasons.

There were two Thai women who posted recently who said they don’t clean the house, chop vegetables or talk about sex. Does anyone really believe they are real?

Does anyone really believe a Thai could reasonably post in this forum? Bambina tries and I have to give her 80% but she does not really speak or write English and loses a lot of subtleties of the language. It is far easier for us to speak Thai than Thais to speak English.

[kat]

Really? Then why is that Jamman and I are on good terms, but with you there is no interest in ever chatting again

Once again I am appreciative that you saw fit to edit your previous post.

Your removal of "You're a cliche" (superficial?) cleaned up your sentiments but only a little and it strikes me that someone as intelligent and educated as you obviously are is not unkind without reason.

What's up? Is there something about farang men/Thai women relationships that grates on your nerves?

I ask this only because some of the those same relationships cause me to grind my teeth as well, while not necessarily more than relationships I have seen in my own country and many others, and I would be interested in your input.

My Thai wife is thirty years my junior.

I am forty-three.

She calls me Daddy.

And rightfully so.

I would have her say hello but I have her chained to the chopping board..

KIDDING !

Relationships tend not to grate my nerves, just people. And you're right: I am too intelligent to get into a baited discussion with you about nothing.

[kat]

Does anyone really believe they are real?

Mark, I don't even believe you are real I know who you are too.

[mark45y]

Does anyone really believe they are real?

Mark, I don't even believe you are real I know who you are too.

You are right Kat, I am not real. I think it’s because I read too much Ian Fleming when I was a kid. First job out of college was with the CIA. They had me read Polish newspapers and record grain shipments. Hardly exciting I told them I wanted a double 0 number and guns and girls and jumping out of airplanes. They told me they got all of those kind of guys from the military so I joined the military.

The military found out I typed a hundred words a minute and had me typing all over South East Asia in the rear with the gear.

I tried Air America because I heard they were exciting and they had me kicking leaflets and pigs with parachutes out of airplanes. Struck out again.

I finally hooked up an exciting job in Hong Kong and it scared me so much I had to pretend to be someone else.

Now I am pretending to understand Thai culture. Just when I think I have a stereotype down a night like last night happens and I have to trash the whole image again.

I had three perfectly sane 30 year old Thai good girls over to the house for an on line search for a Farang boyfriend (it‘s not that they are lazy, just tired of working for 5000 Bht a month).

I got them email accounts with cutesy titles and teddy bear logos and logged them into a friend finder site and put them on cam. I was typing and translating and they were putting away a fifth of Sang Som. Then they started selling on cam. I wish I was a travel agent because I think I could have booked two full planes last night. At one point they were talking to 162 guys at the same time (good thing I can type fast even when I am inebriated). I did learn some new Thai words.

So now I have to throw my Thai good girl stereotype out the window.

Gosh, if my bad luck continues tomorrow I will meet a Farang woman who likes to cook and clean and go to strip clubs.

Next week I am taking the Mark show on the road to Pattaya to do an article on alternative lifestyles in the adult Disneyland of Southern Thailand and I guess I will pretend to be someone else and get more of my stereotypes smashed.

If you are in the neighborhood stop by. I should be easy to find. I’ll be the one on stage with the nurse.

[jamman]

I am sure that I can say that better but this very enjoyable and important thread seems to have turned away from something appropriate to Thailand to chopping vegetables, daddy/daugheter issues, and pseudo-theological discussions between a very few people about interpersonal (not Thai) relationships and sex.

Hi Dustoff. You used the word pseudo, which has been cropping up a lot. I hate the word pseudo. This acrimonious rant below may or may not be directly related to you, but I have to vent:

If by pseudo-theological or pseudo-intellectual you mean possibly ill informed or wrong headed speculation, this is what most of the rest of us call "thinking". Taking a premise or speculation and testing it against our experience and discussing with others if this speculation holds as congruent with their ideas and experiences. I'd rather be a pseudo-intellectual than an ignoramus whose thoughts can be neatly summarized in emoticons, and who thinks that the correct views are the ones agreed upon by the experts, and thought that doesn't precisely mimic said expert thought is pseudo. Some posters seem to have nothing much more to do than project their own inadequates onto others and forever go around telling others that they have nothing to say and to please shut up. If all their posts were summarized and put on their tombstone, it should read "<deleted>".

The next time someone uses the world pseudo-intellectual, I should like to have them point to one of their posts that they consider truly intellectual. I should then like to have them explain why they disdain the rest of us who struggle with our ideas, and don't get them out as truly intellectual from the outset.

Or perhaps, as I suspect, posters who have used the term pseudo-intellectual actually disdain speculative thinking altogether, and find no value in it. If it can't be summarized in an emoticon, it doesn't directly relate to their experience.

There should be a "<deleted>" emoticon. The anti-thoughtful-discussion police could then just use a computer program to post "<deleted>" after every post on every thread in the world, and sleep easy, job done.

Edited April 28, 2006 by jamman

[jamman]

I'm still having a problem with the assigned roles that male and females are supposed to take... I don't believe that you would have to be Gay to work together in the house and outside. When it comes to housework, I share the duties, I live there too... Granted, I have to argue with my Thai wife when it comes to dishes, she says Man don't do, I say, I do, and I do. I help cook and clean... I enjoy being a part of the household. She also helps me outside. We work in the garden together, we plant flowers and cut the grass. She helps me wash the car... she does the windows and the inside, I wash and wax the outside with our sons.

I believe that it's totally sexist to assign roles by gender. When I was growing up, I have two younger sisters; my mother taught me to cook, clean, wash clothes and wash dishes. I grumbled once about the fact that I was a boy and we have two girls here that can do the housework. Mom was very patient with her answer... She told me that she wanted me to learn those things to help me. She said that when I got older and left home, she wanted me to find a woman to love and share my life with. She wanted me to find love and not just find a woman that can take care of me. I appreciated that, I'm glad to this day that she did. Being a part of a family is more than the hierachy of the remote control for the T.V. To me, it is all of us doing everything together. I enjoy being a part of everything we do. It's amazing some of the conversations we have while doing menial chores together; with the wife, and our children. We all learn a lot.

I agree that to assign other people their roles limits them, and that is unkind. However, there are some vague and slippery and general gender differences, such as men being on the whole more mechanically interested and inclined, and women being on the whole and generally more fascinated with and able to relate with infants and toddlers. Does that mean that women should not be mechanics, or that men should not work in day care centers? No. But it might mean, if two people in one household actually do have somewhat different interests and inclinations, their contrubutions can naturally fall in line with their interests and inclinations. That isn't sexist or limiting. People can offer things based somewhat on their interests and inclinations - everything doesn't have to be chopped up neatly 50 50. If you chop it up all 50 50, that is more likely to cause resentment, or if not, at the very least it makes a chore out of everything, a duty out of it, instead of an offering. "Now it is my turn to do this uwanted task of taking out the garbage", instead of "I'm doing my garbage thing now, taking care of my mate. I'm glad to be bigger and stronger than her, because this way this garbage is so easy for me to lift, and I can better take care of her". It isn't sexist or assigned, it is just much easier and pleasant for me to offer this work to her, than for her to offer it to me. I'm glad to be able to offer putting up shelves, because for me it easy.

Old people need to be appreciated. They have skills that the young don't yet have - thankfully! It would be terrible for them if they were un-needed. And in a relationship, we don't HAVE to be sexualy ambidextrous, and we certainly don't have to be sexually neutral. Neutred and neutral have the same root. There is nothing wrong with having different house-hold roles - whatever they are. I am not suggesting what they should be - I am only suggesting that having household roles, of itself, is not bad.

Actually, I saying something much stronger than that. I'm saying that taking on some role actually can give greater expression of generosity. "I'm offering this to her as my specific offering", instead of, "now it's my turn and I did my half of the bargain."

And the flip side of that is expecting someone to do their half. I agree that each should overall contribute, but if for instance Sarah didn't like to cook, and I expected her to cook half the time, I am trying to make her into someone who she is not, trying to make her have an interest she doesn't have. I'm better off giving her money to go out and buy food, or find some other solution that let's her be who she is, and doesn't make demands on her that don't fit with who she is. Never mind that WE should be generous and do our part, I can't impose my expectation on her, if SHE really doesn't want to do that - it isn't for me to say that she should realize that she is supposed to want to do her part. If she really really doesn't like to cook, that's her business, and no WE overrides any SHE. She is allowed to have her own interests and inclinations. All I can do is see if on balance she is positive or negative to my life, maybe suggest some other ways she can help in ways she likes. I can't tell her to do her share of each task - that is micro managing and enslaving someone to your personal agenda of OUR BIG WE agenda.

Edited April 28, 2006 by jamman

[Dustoff]

Hi Dustoff. You used the word pseudo, which has been cropping up a lot. I hate the word pseudo. This acrimonious rant below may or may not be directly related to you, but I have to vent:

Hi Jamman,

As you will see by my signature line I do not engage in rages but perhaps an explanation is in order since you seem to have taken offense.

Another definition of psuedo- is 'apparently similar' and is what I intended. I have actually participated in this thread - I think obviously without intent to offend at any time - and if you had read the rest of my message that you refer to and a subsequent one to Kat, you may have found that I offered to participate in another venue. You will also find that I did not mention your name.

Like perhaps many others on here, I would like to see the Thai Visa forums stay mostly with issues about we farangs living in Thailand. So many threads start off with much potential for just that then deteriorate into tangents and flames and I always find it sad when that happens.

No offense intended and if you "hate the word pseudo" that keeps "cropping up a lot", I will leave you to examine your own issues or discuss it with someone else. I am sorry to hear that you misunderstood my use of the word.

[kat]

You are right Kat, I am not real. I think it’s because I read too much Ian Fleming when I was a kid. First job out of college was with the CIA. They had me read Polish newspapers and record grain shipments. Hardly exciting I told them I wanted a double 0 number and guns and girls and jumping out of airplanes. They told me they got all of those kind of guys from the military so I joined the military ...

He gives good story.

If by pseudo-theological or pseudo-intellectual you mean possibly ill informed or wrong headed speculation, this is what most of the rest of us call "thinking". Taking a premise or speculation and testing it against our experience and discussing with others if this speculation holds as congruent with their ideas and experiences. I'd rather be a pseudo-intellectual than an ignoramus whose thoughts can be neatly summarized in emoticons, and who thinks that the correct views are the ones agreed upon by the experts, and thought that doesn't precisely mimic said expert thought is pseudo. Some posters seem to have nothing much more to do than project their own inadequates onto others and forever go around telling others that they have nothing to say and to please shut up. If all their posts were summarized and put on their tombstone, it should read "<deleted>".

He gives good thought. (Note, I do not use emoticons on him, because I know he dislikes them. But I think a <deleted> one would be great.)

Like perhaps many others on here, I would like to see the Thai Visa forums stay mostly with issues about we farangs living in Thailand. So many threads start off with much potential for just that then deteriorate into tangents and flames and I always find it sad when that happens.

All threads start with a topic and then if they are good, discussion ensues. That is what happened on this thread. If you want to throw a tantrum about exact dialogue concerning farangs and Thais, then maybe you should start another thread, because THIS thread was actually about a survey comparing the different sex lives of Thai couples and Western couples. We then naturally progressed into why some of those results were different, and into relations betweem men and women - a very common theme on this forum. Just try not to resort to quoting people out of context, and harassing people whose views you don't like. That is anti-intellectual, or in plain terms, stupid.

There are many different viewpoints and experiences on this forum, so it looks like you're going to have to share.

*edit - the edit was grammatical Dustoff, in case you wanted to use it against me.

Edited April 29, 2006 by kat