Flight TG669 skids off runway at Suvarnabhumi Airport

[bra]

How many of the people posting on this thread have first hand knowledge or are personally involved in the aviation industry? If you could raise your hands we'd know whose posts to ignore and whose to give credence to.

I am an Aviation Professional and I agree completely - professionals are identified by their reasonable and "technically" possible explanations. The non professionals are identified by their often absurd and insulting comments about TG, the technical and cabin crew, the aircraft, the runway and all things Thai.

Incidentally Flightglobal (well respected aviation industry journal)said today that a aircraft was expected to be a hull loss (a write off). Remains to be seen.

[lomatopo]

I'd submit that if it is industry practice to "de-identify" a disabled aircraft, that this practice might come under review going forward given the huge amount of negative publicity this instance has engendered in the public eye.

It looks like BA broke out the white paint for BA 38 at some point, it doesn't look like it was one of the first things they did?

In the case of TG 669 they did also black out the Thai flag on both sides of the vertical stabilizer near the top.

Edited September 10, 2013 by lomatopo

[harrry]

How many of the people posting on this thread have first hand knowledge or are personally involved in the aviation industry? If you could raise your hands we'd know whose posts to ignore and whose to give credence to.

I am an Aviation Professional and I agree completely - professionals are identified by their reasonable and "technically" possible explanations. The non professionals are identified by their often absurd and insulting comments about TG, the technical and cabin crew, the aircraft, the runway and all things Thai.

Incidentally Flightglobal (well respected aviation industry journal)said today that a aircraft was expected to be a hull loss (a write off). Remains to be seen.

Maybe they will do a complete hull rebuild like QANTAS did in their Bangkok incident so they can say they have never had a jet write off.

[techboy]

That looks a bit more then just skidding a bit the runway, good luck no one's hurt badly. I said that before Thai Airways lost its credibility, they have major cash problems, bad management, that leads to endured use of old aircrafts, probably and no first class maintenance anymore to economise because being under pressure of business competition which often leads to bad service and personnel. Some more incidents they can also say good bye being a member of Star Alliance. An airplane crash in our days easily leads to a bankruptcy with almost no point of return even for a major carrier like TG, look at Lufthansa why do they spent thatkind of tremendous effort on safety because it would extrem to recoup from an aircraft loss, finacially and due to the damaged image. But have we not heard lately the problems of Thai Airways are due to the exchange rates! If not some many lives depends on every flight I would be laughing!

"Looks like" and "probably" pretty much defines extent of knowledge here.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Meanwhile, there continue to be conflicting reports on just what kind of landing gear problem caused the crash.

From today's The Nation report, as posted in the companion thread on airport delays.

Department of Civil Aviation director-general Worradej Harnprasert said an initial in-house investigation found that the rear starboard landing-gear broke.
A further investigation using in-flight details from the black box, to begin today when the unit is expected to be retrieved, would conclude the cause of the drama.

In a statement early yesterday, Thai Airways president Sorajak Kasemsuwan said the landing seemed to be routine until pilots detected a fault in the landing gear,
before the aircraft skidded to the right.

"Initially it was probably the front landing gear that broke, but a further investigation is needed to find out the cause," he said.
The engine having problem did not catch fire, but only caused sparkling.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/666673-suvarnabhumi-airport-80-flights-delayed/page-2#entry6807982

[bra]

Sorry but its a bit late for that. TG have had 7 jet hull losses (B737, A300, 2 X A310, DC8 and 2 Caravelle.

The DC8 and Caravelles were when the airline was Thai Airways, which later became Thai International.

Qantas had 1 hull loss but it was a piston engine L1049 Super Constellation at Mauritius following a rejected take off.

As you say they worked hard on the B747 at DMK so they did not have a jet hull loss.

[khaowong1]

That looks a bit more then just skidding a bit the runway, good luck no one's hurt badly. I said that before Thai Airways lost its credibility, they have major cash problems, bad management, that leads to endured use of old aircrafts, probably and no first class maintenance anymore to economise because being under pressure of business competition which often leads to bad service and personnel. Some more incidents they can also say good bye being a member of Star Alliance. An airplane crash in our days easily leads to a bankruptcy with almost no point of return even for a major carrier like TG, look at Lufthansa why do they spent thatkind of tremendous effort on safety because it would extrem to recoup from an aircraft loss, finacially and due to the damaged image. But have we not heard lately the problems of Thai Airways are due to the exchange rates! If not some many lives depends on every flight I would be laughing!

Hey, at least they reacted swiftly to the situation, on the other paper there's a photo of Thai Airways maintenance crews covering the logo on the tail with black paint.

And also painting over the name on the side. Like, see Somchai, now no one will know it was a Thai Airways aircraft..

[techboy]

18 years old aircraft ....... thats quite a lot ....

Indeed. For your enlightenment:

http://qna.rediff.com/questions-and-answers/what-is-the-average-life-expectancy-for-a-commerci/24961394/answers

[lomatopo]

Maybe they will do a complete hull rebuild like QANTAS did in their Bangkok incident so they can say they have never had a jet write off.

Qantas accepts findings of ATSB report on Bangkok accident.

Following the release of the report, Qantas has admitted that it should not have dismissed the accident as a mere incident, and has accepted blame. Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon stated on 25 April, 'The report says there were serious deficiencies in some of Qantas's operations and we accept that report. We apologise to our passengers for the inconvenience it obviously caused and we are accepting the blame for the accident,' news.com.au reported.

The accident occurred on 23 September 1999 and involved a Boeing 747-438 flight en route to London, UK that was carrying 410 people. As the aircraft landed in Bangkok, it aquaplaned off the end of the runway, crashed through navigational equipment and stopped across a perimeter road some 220 metres away from the runway.

The report found that the landing procedure used by the flight crew, which was designed to save wear on the brakes and create less noise, was unsuitable for wet weather. The report did not find that Qantas' cost-cutting measure regarding the brakes intentionally reduced operational safety standards.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Qantas+accepts+findings+of+ATSB+report+on+Bangkok+accident.-a073670792

[Zolt]

I too find it hilarious they have blacked out the name on the aircraft. It really does beggar belief. Makes them more of a laughing stock IMHO

Every airline does that after an accident. Which doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

[bangon04]

18 years old aircraft ....... thats quite a lot ....

....the average age of Thai Airways airplanes is around 18 years.......not good any more....

Oh dear.. hope it hasn't been written off. They might be forced to replace it. After all you can't have the quality tourists from Guangzhou thinking that Thailand is not a quality destination.

Lucky they painted out the name of Thai Airways after the crash. Otherwise the airline could be accused of bringing the reputation of Thailand into disrepute. As it is, the people who travelled through or past Suvarnabhumi yesterday or who read any type of news story anywhere in the world about this, have no idea that foreign manufacturers of the 18 year old aircraft have conspired to drag Thailand's name through the mire.... oh wait a minute....

Glad to see that THAI has its priorities right. Before any investigation is completed, splash black paint over the fuselage and tail fin. The orchid logo and the THAI colours could easily be mistaken for any other airline, especially in Bangkok.

Pathetic.

[bangon04]

I too find it hilarious they have blacked out the name on the aircraft. It really does beggar belief. Makes them more of a laughing stock IMHO

Every airline does that after an accident. Which doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

Quantas has more reason than most... but they don't. British Airways wouldn't dare.... JAL and the battery fires? Nope, not a regular sight as far as I remember. I know Aeroflot just sets fire to the wreck to make sure no one can investigate anything.......maybe I am joking..

[mikemac]

Turns out the Thai Airways spokesman was lying through his teeth. The Star Alliance has now confirmed there is no such policy.

Makes a change from hearing the habitual Thai bashers and PTP fans lying through their teeth, in a vain effort to convince us of their bs !

[lomatopo]

The fact that the Thai official attempted to deflect the paint-job decision to *A, and given the poor quality of the paint job - OK it was done in the dark - and given the fact that the livery is so distinctive, with ~ 100 similar planes in the immediate vicinity, it simply calls into question the intelligence of such a policy/decision in the first place?

Some say any publicity is good publicity but in this case, regardless of how widely the practice might be employed and thus be defensible by "aviation industry experts", Thai is probably now perceived in a less than positive light, by the general traveling public, as a result of this action (the paint job, rather than the runway excursion).

Edited September 10, 2013 by lomatopo

[scotinsiam]

The crash and the painting out of the logo and bad treatment of passengers afterward make this Country look like a joke - and as for the railways.............

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/09/travel/thai-accident-logos-blurred/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

[rjcampbe]

the flight landed safely at Suvarnabhumi Airport at 11.30pm on Sunday

Except for the fact that the plane caught fire and skidded of the runway. Pretty normal otherwise.

You just need to keep that old pilots maxim in mind...

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one.

Any landing where you can reuse the plane is a GREAT one.

By that criteria, this was a "good: landing....

[Tchooptip]

18 years old aircraft ....... thats quite a lot ....

The "service life of 20 years" is as generalization that figures 51,000 flight hours and 75,000 pressurization cycles for most aircraft. If an aircraft is used on long haul routes it experiences relatively few pressurization cycles in it's "life" it will last far beyond 20 years. Only a few years ago, the "average' age of a jet in the operating fleet of Northwest Airlines was 20 years according to a 1999 article. A 2005 news clip noted NWA continues to operate DC-9-31 aircraft that have an average age of 34 years old!

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_life_expectancy_for_a_commercial_Aircraft

[Tchooptip]

Quite strange that the 2 'quality' English newspapers have hardly picked up on this , while foreign media have.

Yes, and a lot of contradictions also. Please see the link below 'borrowed" from the the Aviation Herald a very knowledgeable website.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4681fccd&opt=0

Thanks for the link

[Tchooptip]

Not to worry, if it had been an airplane from any other (non-Thai) airline that skidded off the runway, the same 'experts' would be out in force blaming Suvarnabhumi airport and AOT and Thaksin and TAT and LOS and TIT.....

[mikemac]

Yes, and a lot of contradictions also. Please see the link below 'borrowed" from the the Aviation Herald a very knowledgeable website.

http://avherald.com/...=4681fccd&opt=0

Thanks also for the link, nonthaburial,

The following comment by one of the avherald.com posters makes more sense than all the Thai Airways bashing comments on this site put together -

I feel this is quite common both in the West and in the East, not something that is unusual at all in the Western world.

Alitalia comets to mind as well as Air Algerie and Britannia Airways crashes in Spain, along with Air Florida Flight 90, Aloha Airlines flight 2432, Air Canada C-FTLU in Cincinnati and many others: all had their logos painted over, and some other parts of the aircraft as well.

It is very common in the US for ground based trucking companies to paint over the logos on their trucks after they have been involved in an accident.

So I am very surprised to see how much attention is being paid to this act with Thai as it has been done a lot over the years and will continue I am sure in different parts of the world.

Pity the clowns who are so infatuated with the logo painting are so narrow minded.

[mrtoad]

Turns out the Thai Airways spokesman was lying through his teeth. The Star Alliance has now confirmed there is no such policy.

Makes a change from hearing the habitual Thai bashers and PTP fans lying through their teeth, in a vain effort to convince us of their bs !

I think the fact that they did this, would concern more people. It really was a pointless exercise. THAI's reputation as good carrier has long left the building, but they still think that they are a top airline.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The logo painting over is a pleasant, amusing, ironic public relations debacle for THAI Air, considering how it was presumably done in an attempt to shield the airline's mediocre reputation, and instead has resulted in them taking an international public relations thrashing...and not just here on ThaiVisa.

But the main issue, of course, is what led to the aircraft having a bad landing and sliding off the runway, and probably wrecking the plane in the process. And the moment by moment changing of the facts and conflicting explanations of what occurred by the (ir)relevant authorities hasn't helped any.

I have no idea what caused the mishap. But I will be very interested to see what conclusions are reached by the supposedly "impartial" accident investigation that will be forthcoming.

Edited September 10, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Tywais]

Looks like starboard main gear caused that damage. You can just about see the runway center line dashes to the LEFT. So starboard gear had either a catastrophic blow out or collapse and the drag brought the plane off to the right where ALL gear sunk in the turf, causing the starboard engine (lowest) to ground out first, ingesting dirt and momentarily igniting.

Thanks for your attention.

Good night.

Well all the accounts are nose wheel! It looks like nose wheel to me. You seem to be making some assumptions in that he landed with the nose wheel exactly on the center line, and that you are observing the grove in the photo from the beginning. What happened to his direction control down the runway as the nose wheel assembly was departing?

Thanks for your attention

Good Night.

I concur with NL 100% on this scenario.

I also feel that is the scenario that it was the starboard wheel that failed. It would be pretty rare to land that off center of the center line for it to be the nose gear. Seen hundreds/thousands of landings and always very close to center line touchdowns. Plus the gouge is so deep that a lot of weight would be on it which would be the case of a main gear.

[illy]

never has the "Streisand effect" been more fully shown than this logo painting debacle!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

[beechguy]

The logo painting over is a pleasant, amusing, ironic public relations debacle for THAI Air, considering how it was presumably done in an attempt to shield the airline's mediocre reputation, and instead has resulted in them taking an international public relations thrashing...and not just here on ThaiVisa.

But the main issue, of course, is what led to the aircraft having a bad landing and sliding off the runway, and probably wrecking the plane in the process. And the moment by moment changing of the facts and conflicting explanations of what occurred by the (ir)relevant authorities hasn't helped any.

I have no idea what caused the mishap. But I will be very interested to see what conclusions are reached by the supposedly "impartial" accident investigation that will be forthcoming.

And do you think the logo painting is a debacle because the Thai's are doing it? Never mind that it's been shown to be a common practice with other carriers.

The beginning of your last paragraph say it all for you and many others, you have no idea what caused the mishap. It's not just you, but the ignorance in these aviation related threads is just amazing.

Edited September 10, 2013 by beechguy

[boomerangutang]

I'm not an expert, but when looking at the two parallel grooves, it looks as tho the nose gear wheels locked up and the rubber burned/popped off, and the pilot was left to try and keep the plane going straight. If so, the straightness of grooves shows at least a reasonably good effort by the pilot.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Beechguy... No, it's a debacle because it resulted, whether justified or not, in a wave of international bad publicity for Thai Air...having nothing to do with any comments here on ThaiVisa...

And, re the cause of the mishap, you want to complain about a poster here (myself) acknowledging that I don't know the cause of the accident, when so many of your peers here are complaining about posters speculating on the cause of the accident before the investigation has been completed.

Get a grip...

Edited September 10, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[beechguy]

Beechguy... No, it's a debacle because it resulted, whether justified or not, in a wave of international bad publicity for Thai Air...having nothing to do with any comments here on ThaiVisa...

And, re the cause of the mishap, you want to complain about a poster here (myself) acknowledging that I don't know the cause of the accident, when so many of your peers here are complaining about posters speculating on the cause of the accident before the investigation has been completed.

Get a grip...

If it is a debacle, that says more about the ignorance of the media, not the actions of the airline. Which brings the point of why would anyone depend on early reports from the media to form an opinion?

As I said, my comments weren't only directed to you, but to the others that can't seem to keep their fingers of the keyboard, even though they don' have a clue.

I agree, someone should get a grip, but it's not me.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If it is a debacle, that says more about the ignorance of the media, not the actions of the airline. Which brings the point of why would anyone depend on early reports from the media to form an opinion?

I'd say... the average reasonably minded person doesn't need to rely on any media opinion to deduce that THAI Air looked like boobs when in the wake of the crash, they appeared more focused on hurriedly painting out the logos on the plane than they did in dealing with the crash or the passengers involved.

In the world at large, like it or not, it really doesn't matter what the post-crash practices are of this or that airline. What matters is how it made THAI Air "appear" in the wake of the crash, creating the perception, right or wrongly, that they were trying to hide their involvement/responsibility for the crash.

https://twitter.com/search?q=thai%20airways&src=typd&mode=photos

Edited September 10, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[beechguy]

If it is a debacle, that says more about the ignorance of the media, not the actions of the airline. Which brings the point of why would anyone depend on early reports from the media to form an opinion?

I'd say... the average reasonably minded person doesn't need to rely on any media opinion to deduce that THAI Air looked like boobs when in the wake of the crash, they appeared more focused on hurriedly painting out the logos on the plane than they did in dealing with the crash or the passengers involved.

In the world at large, like it or not, it really doesn't matter what the post-crash practices are of this or that airline. What matters is how it made THAI Air "appear" in the wake of the crash, creating the perception, right or wrongly, that they were trying to hide their involvement/responsibility for the crash.

And again, as a FAA Certified A&P mechanic with over 25 years experience, yours and their opinions are based on ignorance. But please do expand on your experience and qualifications?

If you guys want to continue to appear foolish, then by all means keep putting those fingers on the keyboard.

Edited September 10, 2013 by beechguy