Is rape prevalent in Thailand?

[GuestHouse]

So what's your argument Mr Average.

In this 'Romantic Setting' you imagine to be in, the woman you are with is saying 'no' but she really means 'yes'.

At what point in this 'Romantic Setting' do you bleive 'No' is confirmed to actually mean 'Yes' or ..

Did 'No' become yes, because she agreed to get into a 'Romantic Setting' in the first place?

[farang000999]

No woman is capable of saying No to a ladies man like Mr. Average. He has read listened to all kinds of empowering self help e-books.

[thaibeachlovers]

In societies where women have a low social status rape tends to be common.

In patriarchal rural societies it is often difficult if not impossible for such assaults to be reported.

In some societies even reporting rape is dangerous to women as they may be blamed and punished for engaging in an "illegal" activity.

The problem will not improve until women are valued as equals and girls have access to education by right.

< until women are valued as equals>

Faint hope of that in the Muslim religion, as in the Koran women are OFFICIALY valued as less worth. For instance, in the case of rape, I believe it needs 4 male eyewitnesses to testify ( correct me if I'm wrong ), and I know for a fact that after a father dies, female children are given less than male children under Sharia law.

in the Koran women are OFFICIALY valued as less worth.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

In Saudi Arabia when a man wants to marry, he has to pay a substantial amount of money to 'buy' his wife.

Why?

I wasn't aware of that when I was in Saudi, but I would say if it's true it's a cultural thing ( just like in Thailand ) and not religious.

If it is the father being paid, it's because women are looked on as property of the father.

[GuestHouse]

TBL, I know you are always keen to rattle the Muslim thing you have going on, but let's keep this Thailand related.

Attitudes of objectification and the commoditisation of women in Thailand are, I am quite sure relevant to rape in Thailand, what goes on or does not go on in Saudi Arabia is not.

[itsrebel]

Very interesting read so far! And this one comes close to the verdict in the Delhi rape case, which on the face of it appears to be the correct one.

I have but a few things to add here.

First off - I recently met a 40 something Thai woman, who said she was raped five years ago by five people and then they threw her into a river to die, but a fisherman saved her life. She was disowned by her family because this happened and she wanted to go to the police. She hasn't spoken to her family since, but they made sure that she wasn't able to file the case. How they accomplished that, she didn't want to get into. It was getting very hard for her to talk about this by this part, and I chose not to push her further. Thankfully, she is doing relatively alright now and has since been able to start her own business far far away from her home city.

Although, I don't have any statistics to cite, I think it is a safe bet to say that Thailand does not do a whole lot better than say India.

Second - someone mentioned the "Indian trash" - I hope they realize that not all Indian men are rapists. But I will also add at this point that there is a problem in that country on how women are treated. But that is a much larger discussion and probably not fit for this thread.

About the BG issue. I think it is kind of a rape. Not to trivialize the sufferings of women such as mentioned earlier, but paying for an intercourse where one party is most likely doing it because she is unable to provide for herself or her family is an "economic rape". It is similar to a gun being pointed at her, of course the "gun" here being the one of hunger and starvation or watching her kids suffer due to poverty. I do understand that there are some BGs who choose to do what they do for other reasons, but I believe the vast majority don't.

So according to you, it's "economic rape" because of hunger and starvation or watching her kids suffer due to poverty, this thread just gets better, talk about demeaning the meaning of rape.

All the guy's in Pattaya/Bangkok/Hua Hin etc etc are raping women because they pay a bargirl for consensual sex because her kids are starving and suffering due to poverty.....I'm off for a lie down to contemplate my sins of the past...

I really do believe so. In my view, if the bar girls were able to get other jobs that paid decent money they would most definitely choose those other jobs. So they are in a way forced into this profession, sometimes not just driven by economic conditions but trafficking, and are forced to have sex with strange men for money. Just because the world, the governments, their families or whoever is not able to provide them the education and/or job opportunities.

In the perfect world, these girls would have gotten a decent education and there would have been jobs available for them and they wouldn't have been forced into selling their bodies for money. So it is "economic rape" based on what they have been provided by the society.

And as I said earlier, I am not trying to trivialize the plight of women/girls that have been forcibly raped. But let's consider this, a girl/woman who is forced to sell her body also has to cope with the fact that may be if she could have done something different she would have been spared this shitty "job". You hear people talking about getting up in the morning and going to a job they don't like and how they dread it. Can you even begin to imagine what a girl/woman, who sells her body for money, might feel about going to her "job"? And it is not a one-off, it happens day after day after day.

I am not condemning anyone here. Everyone has a right to choose what they do.

The only ones who might be "forcing" these Thai women to go work in the bars are their families.

This happens the according to the Thai culture. Never heard of this happening in my country.

As for them being raped because they can't get a high paying job, that's one of the most illogical arguments I heard recently.

What about all the waitresses? Tesco-Lotus cashiers? Sellers in the market? The laundry women across the street?

According to you they all must go work in the bars, because they can't make much money...

If some bar girls are forced or pushed to this job, it's either by their parents, or by their husband/boyfriend.

It is duress. Though probably this will not qualify as a "legal" rape, but it is duress just the same. I am not saying that the ones working as waitresses or in Tesco-Lotus should become prostitutes. I am saying that the women, who did become prostitutes, would rather do something else given an opportunity. They need more money than a job as a waitress or at a Tesco-Lotus will provide, so they look towards this profession.

And for your argument that they are forced into it by their parents or husbands/boyfriends, I think that's worse. The parents or boyfriend/husbands are supposed to give love and protect them. I would imagine that for those women who are forced into this profession by people they are related to it will be much worse. I think these parents and husbands/boyfriends much worse.

Especially parents, they should be executed for there is nothing worse than bringing a child on this planet and then doing such things. And to cloak it in the "Thai culture" just doesn't cut it.

What I am suggesting is that the society gives a shit about them. We can't just turn a blind eye to their plight. And it is true for everywhere, not just Thailand.

Though I will say one thing, the prostitution in Thailand and other countries in the region is a very much a result of the R&R policies during the wars earlier (Vietnam war comes to mind). For these countries to be the sex tourism destinations has a lot to do with what happened during those years.

[itsrebel]

In societies where women have a low social status rape tends to be common.

In patriarchal rural societies it is often difficult if not impossible for such assaults to be reported.

In some societies even reporting rape is dangerous to women as they may be blamed and punished for engaging in an "illegal" activity.

The problem will not improve until women are valued as equals and girls have access to education by right.

< until women are valued as equals>

Faint hope of that in the Muslim religion, as in the Koran women are OFFICIALY valued as less worth. For instance, in the case of rape, I believe it needs 4 male eyewitnesses to testify ( correct me if I'm wrong ), and I know for a fact that after a father dies, female children are given less than male children under Sharia law.

in the Koran women are OFFICIALY valued as less worth.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

In Saudi Arabia when a man wants to marry, he has to pay a substantial amount of money to 'buy' his wife.

Why?

I wasn't aware of that when I was in Saudi, but I would say if it's true it's a cultural thing ( just like in Thailand ) and not religious.

If it is the father being paid, it's because women are looked on as property of the father.

In India they have the dowry system, wherein the girl's parents have to pay the guy and his parents. The girls are considered to be a burden and their parents have to pay the guys because the guys are gracious enough to marry their daughters and relieve them of their burdens.

Of course, decades of persistent female infanticide and/or sex-selective abortions have led to skewed sex ratios in certain states. This has led to certain families buying wives from other states, who then are treated as commodities and are required to have sex with every male in the family, bear children and do the house work as well.

I hardly think the inequality is a religious or regional thing. Don't forget, women weren't allowed to vote not too long ago in the US.

[soomak]

I really do believe so. In my view, if the bar girls were able to get other jobs that paid decent money they would most definitely choose those other jobs. So they are in a way forced into this profession, sometimes not just driven by economic conditions but trafficking, and are forced to have sex with strange men for money. Just because the world, the governments, their families or whoever is not able to provide them the education and/or job opportunities.

In the perfect world, these girls would have gotten a decent education and there would have been jobs available for them and they wouldn't have been forced into selling their bodies for money. So it is "economic rape" based on what they have been provided by the society.

And as I said earlier, I am not trying to trivialize the plight of women/girls that have been forcibly raped. But let's consider this, a girl/woman who is forced to sell her body also has to cope with the fact that may be if she could have done something different she would have been spared this shitty "job". You hear people talking about getting up in the morning and going to a job they don't like and how they dread it. Can you even begin to imagine what a girl/woman, who sells her body for money, might feel about going to her "job"? And it is not a one-off, it happens day after day after day.

I am not condemning anyone here. Everyone has a right to choose what they do.

The only ones who might be "forcing" these Thai women to go work in the bars are their families.

This happens the according to the Thai culture. Never heard of this happening in my country.

As for them being raped because they can't get a high paying job, that's one of the most illogical arguments I heard recently.

What about all the waitresses? Tesco-Lotus cashiers? Sellers in the market? The laundry women across the street?

According to you they all must go work in the bars, because they can't make much money...

If some bar girls are forced or pushed to this job, it's either by their parents, or by their husband/boyfriend.

It is duress. Though probably this will not qualify as a "legal" rape, but it is duress just the same. I am not saying that the ones working as waitresses or in Tesco-Lotus should become prostitutes. I am saying that the women, who did become prostitutes, would rather do something else given an opportunity. They need more money than a job as a waitress or at a Tesco-Lotus will provide, so they look towards this profession.

And for your argument that they are forced into it by their parents or husbands/boyfriends, I think that's worse. The parents or boyfriend/husbands are supposed to give love and protect them. I would imagine that for those women who are forced into this profession by people they are related to it will be much worse. I think these parents and husbands/boyfriends much worse.

Especially parents, they should be executed for there is nothing worse than bringing a child on this planet and then doing such things. And to cloak it in the "Thai culture" just doesn't cut it.

What I am suggesting is that the society gives a shit about them. We can't just turn a blind eye to their plight. And it is true for everywhere, not just Thailand.

Though I will say one thing, the prostitution in Thailand and other countries in the region is a very much a result of the R&R policies during the wars earlier (Vietnam war comes to mind). For these countries to be the sex tourism destinations has a lot to do with what happened during those years.

Seems that your logical capabilities are not that great, so I will try to explain as clearly as possible:

1. Most prostitutes in Thailand are not "forced" (actually "coerced" is the more appropriate term) by anyone, they prefer to work in this profession over other available options.

2. The ones that are coerced, it's by their families and/or male partner, and this is excepted by parts of Thai society (or it wouldn't happen so often).

3. There are plenty of available legitimate jobs in Thailand for women. The unemployment rate is very low, and anyone can find a job outside of the sex industry. The salaries are low, as is the case in many countries around the world.

4. Working as a prostitute does not mean being "raped". These women get paid for providing a service, and most can deny a service if they don't like the customer (at least in the bars that's the case).

Some of them might be raped a few times during their "career", maybe most, but sex act for money is certainly not rape, even in the most "feminist" countries in the world.

5. If you feel sorry for these women, that's your choice. If you think you can help them somehow - go ahead.

But don't confuse yourself and other people with strange theories about "economic rape" and similar BS.

The world is complicated enough without these strange theories.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

In this 'Romantic Setting' you imagine to be in, the woman you are with is saying 'no' but she really means 'yes'.

At what point in this 'Romantic Setting' do you bleive 'No' is confirmed to actually mean 'Yes' or ..

Did 'No' become yes, because she agreed to get into a 'Romantic Setting' in the first place?

Are we still talking Thailand, or in general I wonder; if Thailand then many women feel they will seem virtuous if they resist a little. If they jumped at it right away then they're often worried the guy will perceive her as slutty. So they feign some resistance. That's not the same as saying no, of course. But there you go, that's the gray area that's out there. (And very difference from rape, of course; not sure how far away from the original topic we are at this time.)

[benalibina]

In this 'Romantic Setting' you imagine to be in, the woman you are with is saying 'no' but she really means 'yes'.

At what point in this 'Romantic Setting' do you bleive 'No' is confirmed to actually mean 'Yes' or ..

Did 'No' become yes, because she agreed to get into a 'Romantic Setting' in the first place?

Are we still talking Thailand, or in general I wonder; if Thailand then many women feel they will seem virtuous if they resist a little. If they jumped at it right away then they're often worried the guy will perceive her as slutty. So they feign some resistance. That's not the same as saying no, of course. But there you go, that's the gray area that's out there. (And very difference from rape, of course; not sure how far away from the original topic we are at this time.)

You brought it back to its origin.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Oh good, as I didn't read the original post.

[ABCer]

It is a prevalent concept among many men that prostitutes are forced into their line of work by financial difficulties, parents, need to support kids, preceding rape etc.

It has also become a kind of cliche to say "you can take the girl out of the bar, but can't take the bar out of the girl".

Why not to at least consider the possibility that there are many girls who actually enjoy their job, like their profession?

They might enjoy unlimited sex, have the variety of sex partners and making money is just an added bonus.

Why all the girls should be different from many men in this respect? Especially in Thailand, where this profession is not a negative stigma...

As to the relevance to OP and No/Yes arguments - I have noticed from experience that during the process just as many girls repeatedly scream 'no, no, no' as those saying 'yes, yes, yes' to the happy end...

And the last bit goes for not only prostitutes. Sometimes it is hard to interpret correctly either 'no' or 'yes'.

Edited October 2, 2013 by ABCer

[Sheryl]

Why does this thread, which is about rape, keep degenerating into arguments about prostitution?

Please stay on topic.

[ABCer]

Sorry, Sheryl, you are absolutely right. Just got carried away. That is why I modified my post after your just comment.

[Morakot]

http://project-unbreakable.org/

http://projectunbreakable.tumblr.com/

[Mr Average]

So what's your argument Mr Average.

In this 'Romantic Setting' you imagine to be in, the woman you are with is saying 'no' but she really means 'yes'.

Did 'No' become yes, because she agreed to get into a 'Romantic Setting' in the first place?

Yes on both counts.

A genuine no is seldom spoken. If her mood or body language suddenly changes, you've probably got your no. So if she stands up and annouces that she wants to go home, it's because she wants to go home.

But if she gives you a shy no or a coy no or a playful no or a teasing no or a sultry no or a whispered no ............. I think you know what I mean.

[GuestHouse]

So what's your argument Mr Average.

In this 'Romantic Setting' you imagine to be in, the woman you are with is saying 'no' but she really means 'yes'.

Did 'No' become yes, because she agreed to get into a 'Romantic Setting' in the first place?

Yes on both counts.

A genuine no is seldom spoken. If her mood or body language suddenly changes, you've probably got your no. So if she stands up and annouces that she wants to go home, it's because she wants to go home.

But if she gives you a shy no or a coy no or a playful no or a teasing no or a sultry no or a whispered no ............. I think you know what I mean.

I'm now beginning to wonder how long it was since you were actually in a genuinely 'romantic setting'?

Certainly your second 'Yes' would be no defence in a court of law, though it has often been offered as such.

NO means NO - Regardless of the setting.

[Sheryl]

I think there are 2 things that are being referred to (neither of which would be of any interest to an actual rapist):

1. An initial "no" to avoid being seen as too "easy" -- thankfully no longer needed in most Western cultures, and changing fast in Thailand, but there are still some segments of Thai society where this prevails. Sort of in the same category as politely declining an offer of food at someone's house the first time they offer and later agreeing, a "no" as a formality, but in this instance based on concern for reputaion.seeming "respectable".

2. A "no for now" which leaves the door open to changing to yes later, whether during the same or a subsequent encounter. Some men are much better than others at getting a no changed to a (real) yes. Sometimes the woman just needs more time to know if she's attracted, or is waiting to see if you can make her feel attracted.

In both of the above instances:

- It will occur in the context of a date-type setting the woman has voluntarily agreed to be in, she shows no sign of leaving or else is leaving but agrees to another date.

- You still have to wait until you get an actual "yes"

[Mr Average]

I think there are 2 things that are being referred to (neither of which would be of any interest to an actual rapist):

1. An initial "no" to avoid being seen as too "easy" -- thankfully no longer needed in most Western cultures, and changing fast in Thailand, but there are still some segments of Thai society where this prevails. Sort of in the same category as politely declining an offer of food at someone's house the first time they offer and later agreeing, a "no" as a formality, but in this instance based on concern for reputaion.seeming "respectable".

2. A "no for now" which leaves the door open to changing to yes later, whether during the same or a subsequent encounter. Some men are much better than others at getting a no changed to a (real) yes. Sometimes the woman just needs more time to know if she's attracted, or is waiting to see if you can make her feel attracted.

In both of the above instances:

- It will occur in the context of a date-type setting the woman has voluntarily agreed to be in, she shows no sign of leaving or else is leaving but agrees to another date.

- You still have to wait until you get an actual "yes"

Good post. Well written. Informative. True.

I hope our Mr Guesthouse will read this and learn.

Some men are much better than others at getting a no changed to a (real) yes

And this is what's known as 'the game'. Men either know how to play or they don't. And it needs to be real, too. Men who try to act the part will fail miserably. Women can spot frauds a mile off.

When young boys spout the mantra, 'NO means NO', it's quite endearing. But when you hear this kind of innocence from grown men, it's rather sad. This said, I think western woman here in Thailand will know already that the average man who makes it to these shores is hardly a Romeo or Casanova.

[GuestHouse]

I agree with Sheryl's post in its entirity and see no need to cut out any single line.

As for the average "western man who makes it to these shores", I doubt you'll find such an 'average', and suggest instead you examine why any particular person made the journey - that might tell you more than blind assumptions, though it might offer you less comfort in your prejudiced view.

[itsrebel]

I really do believe so. In my view, if the bar girls were able to get other jobs that paid decent money they would most definitely choose those other jobs. So they are in a way forced into this profession, sometimes not just driven by economic conditions but trafficking, and are forced to have sex with strange men for money. Just because the world, the governments, their families or whoever is not able to provide them the education and/or job opportunities.

In the perfect world, these girls would have gotten a decent education and there would have been jobs available for them and they wouldn't have been forced into selling their bodies for money. So it is "economic rape" based on what they have been provided by the society.

And as I said earlier, I am not trying to trivialize the plight of women/girls that have been forcibly raped. But let's consider this, a girl/woman who is forced to sell her body also has to cope with the fact that may be if she could have done something different she would have been spared this shitty "job". You hear people talking about getting up in the morning and going to a job they don't like and how they dread it. Can you even begin to imagine what a girl/woman, who sells her body for money, might feel about going to her "job"? And it is not a one-off, it happens day after day after day.

I am not condemning anyone here. Everyone has a right to choose what they do.

The only ones who might be "forcing" these Thai women to go work in the bars are their families.

This happens the according to the Thai culture. Never heard of this happening in my country.

As for them being raped because they can't get a high paying job, that's one of the most illogical arguments I heard recently.

What about all the waitresses? Tesco-Lotus cashiers? Sellers in the market? The laundry women across the street?

According to you they all must go work in the bars, because they can't make much money...

If some bar girls are forced or pushed to this job, it's either by their parents, or by their husband/boyfriend.

It is duress. Though probably this will not qualify as a "legal" rape, but it is duress just the same. I am not saying that the ones working as waitresses or in Tesco-Lotus should become prostitutes. I am saying that the women, who did become prostitutes, would rather do something else given an opportunity. They need more money than a job as a waitress or at a Tesco-Lotus will provide, so they look towards this profession.

And for your argument that they are forced into it by their parents or husbands/boyfriends, I think that's worse. The parents or boyfriend/husbands are supposed to give love and protect them. I would imagine that for those women who are forced into this profession by people they are related to it will be much worse. I think these parents and husbands/boyfriends much worse.

Especially parents, they should be executed for there is nothing worse than bringing a child on this planet and then doing such things. And to cloak it in the "Thai culture" just doesn't cut it.

What I am suggesting is that the society gives a shit about them. We can't just turn a blind eye to their plight. And it is true for everywhere, not just Thailand.

Though I will say one thing, the prostitution in Thailand and other countries in the region is a very much a result of the R&R policies during the wars earlier (Vietnam war comes to mind). For these countries to be the sex tourism destinations has a lot to do with what happened during those years.

Seems that your logical capabilities are not that great, so I will try to explain as clearly as possible:

1. Most prostitutes in Thailand are not "forced" (actually "coerced" is the more appropriate term) by anyone, they prefer to work in this profession over other available options.

2. The ones that are coerced, it's by their families and/or male partner, and this is excepted by parts of Thai society (or it wouldn't happen so often).

3. There are plenty of available legitimate jobs in Thailand for women. The unemployment rate is very low, and anyone can find a job outside of the sex industry. The salaries are low, as is the case in many countries around the world.

4. Working as a prostitute does not mean being "raped". These women get paid for providing a service, and most can deny a service if they don't like the customer (at least in the bars that's the case).

Some of them might be raped a few times during their "career", maybe most, but sex act for money is certainly not rape, even in the most "feminist" countries in the world.

5. If you feel sorry for these women, that's your choice. If you think you can help them somehow - go ahead.

But don't confuse yourself and other people with strange theories about "economic rape" and similar BS.

The world is complicated enough without these strange theories.

I agree, I have zero logical capabilities. For that particular post, however, I partly share the blame with alcohol (I have always wished my computer made me take a breathalyzer test before allowing me to use it).

But I still don't understand certain things. Listing them according to your points:

1 - How do you know for sure?

2 - How does that make it better?

3 - True, there may be jobs available, but their needs are more than those jobs pay.

4 - As I said, it is not rape in the technical legal way. But, I have heard and read that the ones working in those bars you talk of are required to go with customers a certain number (varies from bar to bar, I guess) times each month. So it might not really be a choice, especially if it is coming to the end of the month and they haven't reach that number.

5 - I do what I can, I am not going to list on a public forum what I do in my private time.

As for my theory being BS, I think I am entitled to my opinion as much as you are to yours.

And in keeping with what Sheryl said, I will stop posting on this thread after this.

Hope I haven't offended anyone with my BS.

[Mr Average]

I agree with Sheryl's post in its entirity and see no need to cut out any single line.

As for the average "western man who makes it to these shores", I doubt you'll find such an 'average', and suggest instead you examine why any particular person made the journey - that might tell you more than blind assumptions, though it might offer you less comfort in your prejudiced view.

As for the average "western man who makes it to these shores", I doubt you'll find such an 'average', and suggest instead you examine why any particular person made the journey - that might tell you more than blind assumptions, though it might offer you less comfort in your prejudiced view.

Amusing. But I've seen it all before.

I know why western men come here. I know all about the initial 'rose-tinted' stages.

I also know about the subsequent phases of self-denial.

I know too about frauds and their 'faux' happiness and willingness to accept all things Thai.

I know exactly what a man means when he says he loves Thailand and its people and culture.

I understand the meaning of terms and phrases such as 'loser' and 'misfit' and 'social outcast'. I understand why short men talk louder than others and why disgustingly fat men are overly keen to fit in.

==================

But all of this is evading the issue. The issue is that while you've said repeatedly that "No means No", you're now agreeing with Sheryl's post 'in its entirity' (sic).

And this is puzzling. It's puzzling since Sheryl tells us that 'no' does not always mean 'no'.

But let's be honest -- it's not puzzling at all. You don't know what you're talking about. You're hopelessly inexperienced. You just go whichever the way the wind blows.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Mr Average

[farang000999]

I'll save Guesthouse and everyone else here some time. Mr. Average is a Pick Up Artist.

This is all based off of a silly book written called "The Game" -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game:_Penetrating_the_Secret_Society_of_Pickup_Artists

- after the book which was written by a reporter for Rolling Stone magazine, there was a bunch of media, tv shows, internet message boards created in devotion to becoming a "Pick Up Artist". It is all just the typical self-help confidence building stuff, only marketed towards the obnoxious personalities of insecure and immature men.

Mr Average uses all the language and catch phrases of this quasi-community.

In the last few years, this stuff, like everything else young people think is cool, started to become less popular - but I guess Mr. Average is a late bloomer. Being a "Pick Up Artist" in 2013 would be like wearing your jeans the wrong way - That is soooooo five years ago Bro!

Edited October 3, 2013 by farang000999

[benalibina]

I'll save Guesthouse and everyone else here some time. Mr. Average is a Pick Up Artist.

This is all based off of a silly book written called "The Game" -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game:_Penetrating_the_Secret_Society_of_Pickup_Artists

- after the book which was written by a reporter for Rolling Stone magazine, there was a bunch of media, tv shows, internet message boards created in devotion to becoming a "Pick Up Artist". It is all just the typical self-help confidence building stuff, only marketed towards the obnoxious personalities of insecure and immature men.

Mr Average uses all the language and catch phrases of this quasi-community.

In the last few years, this stuff, like everything else young people think is cool, started to become less popular - but I guess Mr. Average is a late bloomer. Being a "Pick Up Artist" in 2013 would be like wearing your jeans the wrong way - That is soooooo five years ago Bro!

Wowwwwwwww !

[thaibeachlovers]

TBL, I know you are always keen to rattle the Muslim thing you have going on, but let's keep this Thailand related.

Attitudes of objectification and the commoditisation of women in Thailand are, I am quite sure relevant to rape in Thailand, what goes on or does not go on in Saudi Arabia is not.

I was just answering the question I was asked.

The previous reference to the Koran is relevant due to the presence in Thailand of many Muslims.

[thaibeachlovers]

I really do believe so. In my view, if the bar girls were able to get other jobs that paid decent money they would most definitely choose those other jobs. So they are in a way forced into this profession, sometimes not just driven by economic conditions but trafficking, and are forced to have sex with strange men for money. Just because the world, the governments, their families or whoever is not able to provide them the education and/or job opportunities.

In the perfect world, these girls would have gotten a decent education and there would have been jobs available for them and they wouldn't have been forced into selling their bodies for money. So it is "economic rape" based on what they have been provided by the society.

And as I said earlier, I am not trying to trivialize the plight of women/girls that have been forcibly raped. But let's consider this, a girl/woman who is forced to sell her body also has to cope with the fact that may be if she could have done something different she would have been spared this shitty "job". You hear people talking about getting up in the morning and going to a job they don't like and how they dread it. Can you even begin to imagine what a girl/woman, who sells her body for money, might feel about going to her "job"? And it is not a one-off, it happens day after day after day.

I am not condemning anyone here. Everyone has a right to choose what they do.

The only ones who might be "forcing" these Thai women to go work in the bars are their families.

This happens the according to the Thai culture. Never heard of this happening in my country.

As for them being raped because they can't get a high paying job, that's one of the most illogical arguments I heard recently.

What about all the waitresses? Tesco-Lotus cashiers? Sellers in the market? The laundry women across the street?

According to you they all must go work in the bars, because they can't make much money...

If some bar girls are forced or pushed to this job, it's either by their parents, or by their husband/boyfriend.

It is duress. Though probably this will not qualify as a "legal" rape, but it is duress just the same. I am not saying that the ones working as waitresses or in Tesco-Lotus should become prostitutes. I am saying that the women, who did become prostitutes, would rather do something else given an opportunity. They need more money than a job as a waitress or at a Tesco-Lotus will provide, so they look towards this profession.

And for your argument that they are forced into it by their parents or husbands/boyfriends, I think that's worse. The parents or boyfriend/husbands are supposed to give love and protect them. I would imagine that for those women who are forced into this profession by people they are related to it will be much worse. I think these parents and husbands/boyfriends much worse.

Especially parents, they should be executed for there is nothing worse than bringing a child on this planet and then doing such things. And to cloak it in the "Thai culture" just doesn't cut it.

What I am suggesting is that the society gives a shit about them. We can't just turn a blind eye to their plight. And it is true for everywhere, not just Thailand.

Though I will say one thing, the prostitution in Thailand and other countries in the region is a very much a result of the R&R policies during the wars earlier (Vietnam war comes to mind). For these countries to be the sex tourism destinations has a lot to do with what happened during those years.

Seems that your logical capabilities are not that great, so I will try to explain as clearly as possible:

1. Most prostitutes in Thailand are not "forced" (actually "coerced" is the more appropriate term) by anyone, they prefer to work in this profession over other available options.

2. The ones that are coerced, it's by their families and/or male partner, and this is excepted by parts of Thai society (or it wouldn't happen so often).

3. There are plenty of available legitimate jobs in Thailand for women. The unemployment rate is very low, and anyone can find a job outside of the sex industry. The salaries are low, as is the case in many countries around the world.

4. Working as a prostitute does not mean being "raped". These women get paid for providing a service, and most can deny a service if they don't like the customer (at least in the bars that's the case).

Some of them might be raped a few times during their "career", maybe most, but sex act for money is certainly not rape, even in the most "feminist" countries in the world.

5. If you feel sorry for these women, that's your choice. If you think you can help them somehow - go ahead.

But don't confuse yourself and other people with strange theories about "economic rape" and similar BS.

The world is complicated enough without these strange theories.

I agree 100% with all your points, but you just can't convince some people of the truth. Must be something about western "puritan" genes that they see it as their mission to "rescue" the poor downtrodden sold-at-birth victims of western male exploitation in Thailand when there is plenty of prostitution going on in their own countries.

[thaibeachlovers]

The only ones who might be "forcing" these Thai women to go work in the bars are their families.

This happens the according to the Thai culture. Never heard of this happening in my country.

As for them being raped because they can't get a high paying job, that's one of the most illogical arguments I heard recently.

What about all the waitresses? Tesco-Lotus cashiers? Sellers in the market? The laundry women across the street?

According to you they all must go work in the bars, because they can't make much money...

If some bar girls are forced or pushed to this job, it's either by their parents, or by their husband/boyfriend.

It is duress. Though probably this will not qualify as a "legal" rape, but it is duress just the same. I am not saying that the ones working as waitresses or in Tesco-Lotus should become prostitutes. I am saying that the women, who did become prostitutes, would rather do something else given an opportunity. They need more money than a job as a waitress or at a Tesco-Lotus will provide, so they look towards this profession.

And for your argument that they are forced into it by their parents or husbands/boyfriends, I think that's worse. The parents or boyfriend/husbands are supposed to give love and protect them. I would imagine that for those women who are forced into this profession by people they are related to it will be much worse. I think these parents and husbands/boyfriends much worse.

Especially parents, they should be executed for there is nothing worse than bringing a child on this planet and then doing such things. And to cloak it in the "Thai culture" just doesn't cut it.

What I am suggesting is that the society gives a shit about them. We can't just turn a blind eye to their plight. And it is true for everywhere, not just Thailand.

Though I will say one thing, the prostitution in Thailand and other countries in the region is a very much a result of the R&R policies during the wars earlier (Vietnam war comes to mind). For these countries to be the sex tourism destinations has a lot to do with what happened during those years.

Seems that your logical capabilities are not that great, so I will try to explain as clearly as possible:

1. Most prostitutes in Thailand are not "forced" (actually "coerced" is the more appropriate term) by anyone, they prefer to work in this profession over other available options.

2. The ones that are coerced, it's by their families and/or male partner, and this is excepted by parts of Thai society (or it wouldn't happen so often).

3. There are plenty of available legitimate jobs in Thailand for women. The unemployment rate is very low, and anyone can find a job outside of the sex industry. The salaries are low, as is the case in many countries around the world.

4. Working as a prostitute does not mean being "raped". These women get paid for providing a service, and most can deny a service if they don't like the customer (at least in the bars that's the case).

Some of them might be raped a few times during their "career", maybe most, but sex act for money is certainly not rape, even in the most "feminist" countries in the world.

5. If you feel sorry for these women, that's your choice. If you think you can help them somehow - go ahead.

But don't confuse yourself and other people with strange theories about "economic rape" and similar BS.

The world is complicated enough without these strange theories.

I agree, I have zero logical capabilities. For that particular post, however, I partly share the blame with alcohol (I have always wished my computer made me take a breathalyzer test before allowing me to use it).

But I still don't understand certain things. Listing them according to your points:

1 - How do you know for sure?

2 - How does that make it better?

3 - True, there may be jobs available, but their needs are more than those jobs pay.

4 - As I said, it is not rape in the technical legal way. But, I have heard and read that the ones working in those bars you talk of are required to go with customers a certain number (varies from bar to bar, I guess) times each month. So it might not really be a choice, especially if it is coming to the end of the month and they haven't reach that number.

5 - I do what I can, I am not going to list on a public forum what I do in my private time.

As for my theory being BS, I think I am entitled to my opinion as much as you are to yours.

And in keeping with what Sheryl said, I will stop posting on this thread after this.

Hope I haven't offended anyone with my BS.

1 How do you know it's not? How much experience do YOU have in the bar scene- how many BGs have you got to know properly ( not just a superficial chat over a beer )?

Actually, I wish he'd qualified his statement as referring to the "farang" scene, as I hate to think what goes on in the Thai scene.

2 He doesn't claim that it makes it "better".

3 Their needs are no greater than the millions of girls that choose NOT to enter the scene.

4. GOOD GRIEF, do you not think that they KNOW what the job entails when they CHOOSE to do it? Besides, do you really think that they can meet their financial needs ( as you put it ) on a BGs wage + tips?

Perhaps all those against the bar scene need to go out and actually get to know some BGs before writing about them as though they are some enslaved victims of western brutality.

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