Moving to Ireland and using the Surinder singh route to the uk?

[thomas28]

Hi

Has anyone ever used the surinder singh route for there spouse to the uk?

If nobody knows what it is. Read this link -

http://www.jcwi.org.uk/blog/2013/04/19/surinder-singh-and-family-unity

I would like to know if I moved to republic of Ireland and became known to the uk as an eu citizen , my wife can come there under the eu family law with no questions asked or visa fees.

How long would we have to stay in Ireland before I can bring her to the uk?

[7by7]

Under the EEA freedom of movement rights any EEA national has the right to live in any other EEA country and have their non EEA national family members live there with them.

Normally, however, this latter right does not extend to the country of which the EEA national is a citizen.

However, as you say, the Surinder Singh ruling means that if an EEA national has been living and working in another EEA state, and their non EEA national family member(s) have been living there with them then they can then use the EEA regulations to move back to their home country with their non EEA family member(s).

So, yes. If you were to move to the RoI and exercise a treaty right there, your wife could join you using the EEA regulations.

These treaty rights are:

• Student
• Jobseeker
• Employed
• Self employed
• living off independent means, e.g. a pension.

For your wife to qualify to then move to the UK with you, you must have been exercising an economic treaty right, that is employed or self employed, in Ireland whilst the two of you were living there together.

See EUN2.14 Can family members of British citizens qualify for an EEA family permit? ('Surinder Singh' cases)

There is no minimum time the two of you need to live in Ireland to qualify for this, but you must have been working, employed or self employed, in Ireland while living there.

On the face of it this seems an easy way of getting around the UK's family immigration rules, especially the financial requirement and the exorbitant fees, but I would suggest that it is not suitable for all.

If you are already living and working in the UK then you would need to leave your job in the UK and find one in Ireland. You would also need to make suitable arrangements for somewhere to live in Ireland and at the same time either rent out your home if you own it in the UK or cancel your tenancy if you rent.

When the time came to return to the UK you would then need to the same in reverse, although to qualify under Surinder Singh you do not need an actual job to return to; but obviously you would need to find one once back in the UK.

Even if you currently live in Thailand, you would need to find a job and somewhere to live in Ireland, move there and then find a job and somewhere to live in the UK and move there. With the extra costs of two international moves instead of just one.

I am not saying that this route is not a good idea; it is for some; but not for all. You need to consider every angle before deciding whether or not to follow it.

[7by7]

Deleted; duplicate

Edited September 19, 2013 by 7by7

[thomas28]

Thanks for the reply 7by7.

You replied on my previous posts and have been very helpful.

You say there is no minimum time to work in an eu country to qualify for an eu family permit and I can return to uk from ROI and find a job on my return.

I would be returning with my non eu wife and half British child, if i worked in ROI for one week self employed , staying in a hotel then flew to uk .

Would this be enough to enter on eu family permit?

How do u get issued an eu family permit for proof at immigration?

[7by7]

First your wife would need to apply for the Irish equivalent to enter Ireland as the spouse of an EEA national (you) who is or will be exercising a treaty right there.

Start here.

Once you are both in Ireland she will then need to apply for an EEA family permit to come to the UK.

See:

How to apply for an EEA family permit


Supporting documents for an EEA family permit

Note:

If the EEA national is a British citizen, you must provide evidence that:
they have been working or are self-employed in another EEA member state; and
you have been living with them in the EEA state, if you are their spouse or civil partner.

[prestburypark]

This is a fascinating thread, I wonder how long in RI would be acceptable, weeks, months? Has anyone got personal experience of going this route as it seems pretty easy to do?

[RAZZELL]

Thanks for the reply 7by7.

You replied on my previous posts and have been very helpful.

You say there is no minimum time to work in an eu country to qualify for an eu family permit and I can return to uk from ROI and find a job on my return.

I would be returning with my non eu wife and half British child, if i worked in ROI for one week self employed , staying in a hotel then flew to uk .

Would this be enough to enter on eu family permit?

How do u get issued an eu family permit for proof at immigration?

Err...what is a "half British child?"

I would think there'd be absolutely no chance after one week...

The minimum acceptable time seems to be 3+ months...

Have a read of :

http://www.scribd.com/doc/162770836/Surinder-Singh-for-Newbies

Or join:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/477537505627291/

RAZZ

Edited September 21, 2013 by RAZZELL

[Tony M]

Normally, The accepted minimum, by UKV&I, is 3 months.

[Basil B]

Sad day when you realise that you have more rights if you move abroad...

[thomas28]

Thai and British razzell.. I'm sure everyone understood what I meant .

It's quite unbelievable Isn't it basil B !

[RAZZELL]

Thai and British razzell.. I'm sure everyone understood what I meant .

It's quite unbelievable Isn't it basil B !

I know

But your child is not "half Briitish" - he/she is British!

Same as he/she is Thai!

RAZZZ

[7by7]

Normally, The accepted minimum, by UKV&I, is 3 months.

Interesting that the ECGs used to say, if memory serves, that there was no required minimum residence in the other EEA state and that it didn't matter if the sole reason for moving there was to qualify under this route; but those two statements have now been removed.

I wonder why.

Sad day when you realise that you have more rights if you move abroad...

I am sure that there are people in other EEA states who are struggling to meet that states family immigration rules who are thinking exactly the same!

[Jay Sata]

In this case I'm not going to point certain experts to the relevant site but I will advise you that the Republic of Ireland requires two years

residence and employment if you are are thinking of going down this route.

Frankly in my opinion if you cannot sail through the UK goalposts you are wasting your time.

Wives, partners etc cost money just like boats,horses and aircraft.

Cut your cloth etc as they say

Edited September 23, 2013 by Jay Sata

[prestburypark]

Why is it anything to do with the ROI? You are just exercising your treaty rights to work there. If you decide to apply to the UK for a family permit to bring your spouse in after several months it is sweet FA to do with the ROI.

Why not post helpful links? Forums are for sharing knowledge are they not? And who says its about money, there is the whole raft of hoops that the spousal visa route requires that are simply unjust and unfounded...like the life in the UK exam,:" who wore red socks on the second tuesday morning at the battle of Bosworth field ?" type questions.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/162770836/Surinder-Singh-for-Newbies

A few months working holiday in an EU state and free and clear for 5 years in the UK with no hassles, with ILR at the end of the 5 years is definitely not about the money for me, but about the lack of bureaucracy I have to deal with. These are EU treaty rights, not loopholes..but you do need to fulfil the criteria correctly.

[RAZZELL]

In this case I'm not going to point certain experts to the relevant site but I will advise you that the Republic of Ireland requires two years

residence and employment if you are are thinking of going down this route.

Frankly in my opinion if you cannot sail through the UK goalposts you are wasting your time.

Wives, partners etc cost money just like boats,horses and aircraft.

Cut your cloth etc as they say

A link would be helpful?

RAZZ

[bobrussell]

Somewhere in the paperwork it states that refusal under this rule is not possible even if the reason for exercising the right was specifically to 'by-pass' the rules.

This is somewhere in the guidance notes for UK V& I staff - I will see if I can find it later. This suggests that it is not possible to give a fixed period of residence in another EU country.

Three months may be a suggestion but legally there is no such rule that I can see. Go to another country and exercise your rights and the UK authorities are stuck legally. This does not mean they won't put up a fight though!

(Edit: Don't seem to be able to find these notes so suspect they have been updated)

Edited September 24, 2013 by bobrussell

[7by7]

In this case I'm not going to point certain experts to the relevant site but I will advise you that the Republic of Ireland requires two years residence and employment if you are are thinking of going down this route.

Why is it anything to do with the ROI? You are just exercising your treaty rights to work there. If you decide to apply to the UK for a family permit to bring your spouse in after several months it is sweet FA to do with the ROI.

Indeed, prestburypark, whatever restrictions the RoI may put upon it's citizens using the Surinder Singh route, they have nothing to do with the UK.

The RoI cannot stop UK, and other EEA, nationals from exercising a treaty right there and bringing their qualifying non EEA national family members to live in the Republic with them.

How long a British national has to live and work in the Republic, or any other EEA state, before using the Surinder Singh route to move to the UK with their non EEA family members is a matter for the UK government alone. provided they stay within the terms of the judgement.

Edited for spelling.

Edited September 24, 2013 by 7by7

[7by7]

Somewhere in the paperwork it states that refusal under this rule is not possible even if the reason for exercising the right was specifically to 'by-pass' the rules.

This is somewhere in the guidance notes for UK V& I staff - I will see if I can find it later. This suggests that it is not possible to give a fixed period of residence in another EU country.

Three months may be a suggestion but legally there is no such rule that I can see. Go to another country and exercise your rights and the UK authorities are stuck legally. This does not mean they won't put up a fight though!

(Edit: Don't seem to be able to find these notes so suspect they have been updated)

Appears so, Bob

Normally, The accepted minimum, by UKV&I, is 3 months.

Interesting that the ECGs used to say, if memory serves, that there was no required minimum residence in the other EEA state and that it didn't matter if the sole reason for moving there was to qualify under this route; but those two statements have now been removed.

I wonder why.

When I've got time I'll re-read the actual judgement and see what it says on this matter.

[Tony M]

It may have been removed because too many people are seeking to use this route, possibly to bypass the current financial requirements. The Surinder Singh principle still applies, of course, and it may be useful to lok at the only two reasons given in the guidance for refusing a 'Surinder Singh" application :

ix. The British citizen is not exercising a Treaty right in a Member State (Surinder Singh)

'You have applied for admission to the United Kingdom in accordance with Regulation 9 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 as the family member of a British national who has been / was previously working or self-employed in another Member State. However, in view of your failure to provide documentary evidence that the British citizen is / was working or self-employed in another Member State prior to returning to / coming to the United Kingdom, I am not satisfied that the Regulations apply in this case.'

x. The applicant is the spouse / civil partner of the British national but is not/was not living with the British national in the EEA State (Surinder Singh)

'You have applied for admission to the United Kingdom in accordance with Regulation 9 of the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 as the family member of a British national who has been / was previously working or self-employed in another Member State. However, you are not living with the British national in (the EEA State), nor were you living together in (the EEA State) before the British national returned to the UK. Therefore, I am not satisfied that the Regulations apply in this case.'

So, looking at it logically, if the sponsor was working or was self-employed, then the applicant will qualify.

[7by7]

When I've got time I'll re-read the actual judgement and see what it says on this matter (minimum time spent working in the other EEA state).

Reading through the judgement itself I cannot find any mention of a minimum time one must have been employed or self employed in another EEA state; though in the case itself it was 2 years.

Also the relevant paragraph, Para 9, of the UK's 2006 regulations does not mention a minimum time.

However, Para 2.5.1 of this document says

Was employed there (other than on a transient or casual basis); or

Established him/herself there as a self employed person

Which indicates to me that a refusal is likely unless the British partner has worked there for some time; e.g. the three months minimum suggested by TonyM.

[7by7]

Deleted; duplicate; again!

Edited September 25, 2013 by 7by7

[bobrussell]

'Other than on a transient or casual basis' looks completely new to me! I wonder if it has been introduced by the UKVI to dissuade people using this route.

I suspect they would come a cropper if challenged in the European Courts (but who wants to go there?).