Do We Have Rights?

[dkstoney]

Well, it seems that one of the currents running through the variety of commentary always boils down to the fact that us farangs are essentially second-class citizens whose presence is tolerated, for now. I was wondering if there were any groups or organizations who look to represent us expats trying to eek out a meager existence for ourselves. I know it's not my country and all that crap, but it would be nice to own a business without having Thai partnership requirements. It would be just swell if I could own more than 1 rai of land (if 1 rai is even actually possible). It's been said here and elsewhere before: "When Thais or any other nationality are allowed to settle in our own countries, there are no limitations on their rights or citizenship status. They just have to keep working, jump through the bureaucratic hoops when commanded, and stay out of trouble."

Who is out there representing us?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Well, it seems that one of the currents running through the variety of commentary always boils down to the fact that us farangs are essentially second-class citizens whose presence is tolerated, for now. I was wondering if there were any groups or organizations who look to represent us expats trying to eek out a meager existence for ourselves. I know it's not my country and all that crap, but it would be nice to own a business without having Thai partnership requirements. It would be just swell if I could own more than 1 rai of land (if 1 rai is even actually possible). It's been said here and elsewhere before: "When Thais or any other nationality are allowed to settle in our own countries, there are no limitations on their rights or citizenship status. They just have to keep working, jump through the bureaucratic hoops when commanded, and stay out of trouble."

Who is out there representing us?

Describe the ' US '....money or no money ....or.......

[Bobcat]

There are a number of very kind and clever people on this forum who will be able to assit you in setting up a business if that is what you would like to do. It's really not difficult to set up. Whether you will be successful or not is another matter.

[dkstoney]

Money is not the issue. I'm talking about equal rights.

[opalhort]

Money is not the issue.  I'm talking about equal rights.

There are no equal rights around the globe, every country has the right to set her own rules!

and money is an issue (purchasing power, standard of living etc.)!

Question (as an example):

how many skilled workers in the US/EU would have enough funds to buy one rai of land in upcountry Thailand?

probably a few million people

how many skilled workers in Thailand would have enough funds to buy one rai of land in the US/EU?

probably none!

Get the point?

Yes, we foreigners do not like the rules, but if you look carefully you may understand the policies and rules.

True, some rules don't make sense, as Dr.PP pointed out somewhere that a single retiree needs 800K in the bank but a father of kids can do with only 400K.

But I guess they will fine-tune the rules eventually.

opalhort

[sabaijai]

I know of one such group, the Society for the Protection of Individual Rights in Thailand (samaakhom pok-pawng sit bukkhon nai prathet thai). Despite the generic-sounding name, the aim is to help foreigners who feel they've been discriminated against here in Thailand.

The Society president is Thai attorney Khun Suphat Skonchai, and he can be reached at Yada Building, Room 56, 3/3 Silom Rd, tel 0 2236 6480. I don't have any personal experience with the society, though I'd been invited to join. I think the idea -- I could be way off on this though -- is for it to be used as a sort of legal defence fund for foreigners.

[wolf5370]

Agree opalhort the rules need to be 'fine tuned'.

However, I think the excuse is used that Farangs will buy up the whole of Thailand so farangs living in LOS (and even married to a Thai) can not buy more than 1 Rai does not hold water. The home of a married couple should be the family home, not one of the couple soley. To limit mass purchasing is simple: You can buy as much land as you require to live on. A house must be situated on the property and this must be you registered domicile. The land can not be used for further settlements (housing) or business. This would stop people buying land for development other than their home, for investment or to rent out/situate businesses on. Put simply your family plot only.

The are several ways aroung the current laws on land ownership; this basically forces us circumvent the law in order to own our own home (land inclusive). A better way is to make the law practical and hit those that you are targetting. Current laws do neither - a few Thai nominee directors with no board power and your company can buy all of LOS that you can afford to buy (you simply have power of attorney and all the shares in your safe - with the deeds).

If people marry a Thai, settle in LOS and to all intents and purposes become part of the community, it is nothing short of racism to deny them citizenship after a 'reasonable' amount of time (time to proof that you are in a long term commitment to your partner) - given that they have followed the laws of the country and have not been a draw on the state. In short, the same as just about every other country in the world.

[davidm]

What on earth makes an expat think he or she is a second class citizen in Thailand? We're not citizens. Period. Thais make it very hard for foreigners to assimilate into local society, but they're doing us a favour in the long run. If you do buy property through one of the loopholes which currently exist, sooner or later someone will try to take it off you. Usually, the foreigner loses in these situations. You can't lose what you never had, so don't try to buy property here.

[Bluecat]

If you do buy property through one of the loopholes which currently exist, sooner or later someone will try to take it off you.

This is unfortunately quite true.

So far, the Thai law does not authorize a foreigner to freely own land in Thailand. If you buy some through companies or other means, you take a risk.

Maybe nothing will ever happen, maybe something will.

In any case, if indeed you buy some land, do it with "excess" money, i.e. money you can afford to lose,...

[opalhort]

Wolf,

of course you are right. land rights should be granted for residential purposes.

I was only trying to point out that if easy land ownership was granted to foreigners, we'll end up with many rich farmers without land to farm on in Thailand.

Thailand, though reasonably well developed, is still in the processs of development, meaning the Thai people have to be protected first of all, and rightly so. (though it looks like our current government is more busy trying to protect itself and it's business interests rather than the Thai people)

If we 'farangs' want to have more rights here in Thailand a local "lobby group" would not be of much help. The only way to achieve anything would be through our respective (US/EU) governments who can speak on behalf of their citizens.

opalhort

[opalhort]

.....Thais make it very hard for foreigners to assimilate into local society, ........

Wrong, Thais make it very easy for us to assimilate into local society, it is the Thai government which makes life difficult for foreigners.

opalhort

[kwiz117]

Hi everyone..

Imagine this is Guantanamo bay.

Then you will feel very happy about so much of rights you have in Thailand.

[Guest IT Manager]

Good point Opalhort.

I guess you learn to live with it, but I wonder how people in Australia, who, while protected by bills of rights etc., who can and do buy land, including many politicians, feel when some yobbo drives past them calling them slopes etc..

[mrmnp]

A p.s. to ######'s reference to Australia, read their rules about non-Australians owning land. Can only buy a new condo (benefits Australian builders) no house or land purchases by foreigners, etc. Believe me, Australians don't want rich Asians buying up all their prime land either.

[opalhort]

IT

Australia and other countries were considered the 'imigration countries', opening their doors wide and welcomed everybody because they needed people to work and pay taxes. Now they realize that it is time to start closing the doors due to social problems in their countries.

Thailand on the other hand had always had very much closed doors and is just starting to open them slowly. Could it be that Thailand has learnt a lesson from the mistakes other countries made?

(to be honest I doubt it, Thai governments only learn their lessons the hard way and never listen to anybody; so I guess it's just coincidence but I think they are on the right track if they just would take more variables (variable conditions for stay, landownership etc.) into consideration)

opalhort

[bmanly]

A p.s. to ######'s reference to Australia, read their rules about non-Australians owning land. Can only buy a new condo (benefits Australian builders) no house or land purchases by foreigners, etc. Believe me, Australians don't want rich Asians buying up all their prime land either.

You are missing the point mrmnp, the point is this: If an Asian person becomes a pernament resident or a citizen of Australia such as my Thai wife she CAN buy all the land in this country she wants if she is willing to pay for it and someone is willing to sell it, unlike Thailand where I am not permitted under any circumstances to buy land in my name only.

You are right about the new condo bit but it goes further, you can apply to the Foreign Investment Review Board (FIRB) if you do have that special house or condo that you would like to sell to a foreigner. You can get an exemption from them and as long as the foreign buyer will use it for their own living purposes and not speculate on the property it can be done. Whilst it is a pain in the bum doing that there are some real estate agencies who will do that for you then specifically but not exclusively target overseas buyers.

[dkstoney]

I suppose that a country the size of California would be foreign-owned in an instant if the laws weren't there to protect the Thais. Thank you for all of the wonderful insights.

[MaiChai]

This thread is one of the major irritations for me regarding Thailand. As a long term 'non resident' married to a local with three local kids, and a large house, I have very few rights. By the good fortune that my wife is a good, honest woman, and we have a supportive, good family, I haven't come unstuck. But I could have, and all my hard earned money could have disappeared into a greedy Thais' hands, and I would not have been able to do a thing about it. TiT

My family and I are moving down to Singapore to live and work; the theory is that we are only a couple of hours away from Thailand, and can easily return from time to time. Down there everyone is treated equal. I believe in time the situation will improve in Thailand, and when it does, and I don't have the fear that my job will disappear when I have trained a local to do it, we will return and I will work locally. The Thai mindset needs to improve alittle, IMHO.

PS: The only reason why Thailand never got colonised by the Europeans is because it was not on a seaboard that was desireable to the Europeans. Thais seem to miss the point that by pure luck of geography, they never got colonised!

[opalhort]

PS: The only reason why Thailand never got colonised by the Europeans is because it was not on a seaboard that was desireable to the Europeans. Thais seem to miss the point that by pure luck of geography, they never got colonised!

I think you are wrong in this regard. Thailand didn't get colonised because of the wisdom and cleverness of the King of Siam at the time.

As far as geography is concerned, Thailand would have been a gem in the european's crown.

opalhort

[Dove]

Why are we asking for equal rights etc?

When a white goes to a country in Asia he is called an expat. When an Asian goes to the UK, US or Australia he is called an immigrant.

The Asian immigrant is hardworking, he goes abroad call him whatever you want, he seldom cares just give him your money, he will clean the toilets, serve food, open stalls at every available corner. He seldom fights for equal rights (although some do because they are puched to the corner) because he sends his money home and profits from the foreign exchange. He uses his hard earned cash to buy land. When he grows old he goes home and is a rich land lord and is Boss.

How many expats can send money home from their incomes in Asia to buy land back from where they came from?

[opalhort]

Why are we asking for equal rights etc?

When a white goes to a country in Asia he is called an expat. When an Asian goes to the UK, US or Australia he is called an immigrant.

The Asian immigrant is hardworking, he goes abroad call him whatever you want, he seldom cares just give him your money, he will clean the toilets, serve food, open stalls at every available corner.  He seldom fights for equal rights (although some do because they are puched to the corner) because he sends his money home and profits from the foreign exchange. He uses his hard earned cash to buy land. When he grows old he goes home and is a rich land lord and is Boss.

How many expats can send money home from their incomes in Asia to buy land back from where they came from?

exactly!!! Dove.

great comparison!

opalhort

[natee1]

when asked how long I want to stay in Thailand, my reply is:

-as long as they let me.

And, yeah, right, no surplus money to send anywhere. If or when I finally won't get a new visa, it will be joining the unemployed and, most likely after my long absence, unemployable somewhere in Europe, where I have a right to stay.

[Boon Mee]

Well, it seems that one of the currents running through the variety of commentary always boils down to the fact that us farangs are essentially second-class citizens whose presence is tolerated, ."

Who is out there representing us?

Well, if you're an American, try getting a little help from that big fortress-like building down on Wireless Road - and good luck!